[Discussion] Nagato + Cursed Heart Seal?

[valandil988]

I find it infinitely annoying how only two characters are mentioned in having the cursed heart seal. Both of which managed to remove the effects using Chidori.

However while Rin is indeed an important piece in Madara's plan to manipulate Obito, and Obito himself is integral to the plan. Nagato the one gifted with Madara's own Rinnegan is conveniently not given the cursed heart seal.

What the heck is up with that?

Kishi just creates this convenient way to explain Obito's mindless adherence to Madara's ideals and Rin's weird suicide. Yet avoids including Nagato in this equation, a person arguable even more important in the scheme of things than Obito.

And you know why that is? Because Kishi didn't know he would add this cursed heart seal thing until after Nagato was defeated when Kishi started moving further into developing Obito's back story.

Ergo Nagato who arguable would have been the FIRST person Madara would have placed this particular seal on is in fact left without any means of control.

Do I smell plot hole....

 

[Kαmi]

Obito was the one to manipulate Nagato though. No need to place a seal on him when he didn't have to worry about him. Nagato would have been dead upon using Rinnne Tensei for Madara anyway. That's what the plan between the two of them was at first anyway.

 

[Blubbit]

Nagato couldn't kill himself. Nagato was meant to revive Madara. If he had the seal placed on him, he wouldn't be able to use Rinne Tensei.

 

[Ojdidit]

You are right nagato should have a curse seal as well.

 

[valandil988]

Obito was the one to manipulate Nagato though. No need to place a seal on him when he didn't have to worry about him. Nagato would have been dead upon using Rinnne Tensei for Madara anyway. That's what the plan between the two of them was at first anyway.

Your not understanding the first step of any plan....its always full proof. Ie don't rely on ifs, maybes or possibilities. A person like Madara would always play for keeps. IE he could never fully trust anyone with his plans and ergo should have planted seals on everyone involved.

Listen I would have lol if I had given him my blessed eyes....

Eyes that could more or less have granted him a pathway to power more or less similar to the sages if he had collected all the biju and sealed them inside himself. And remember this wasn't when Nagato was crippled so Obito would not always have been certain to defeat Nagato.

Ergo if your Madara you play for keeps.

 

[VongolaX]

Nagato had the rinnegan change him completely.

He wasn't binded like Tobi and Rin fortunetly.

 

[Draven]

actually if you think more into it Nagato wasnt given the cursed puppet seal for 3 reasons. Madara implanted his rinnegan into Nagato to have him develop them more and keep them alive. 2 Obito was told to nurture him and bring about his hatred by having his friend killed by him. and 3 Madara is a psychopath and wanted everything to play out by his own manipulations hence he setup everyone else around Nagato to push nagato over the edge and to force nagato to use his own life force to summon the gedo mazu statue

 

[valandil988]

Nagato couldn't kill himself. Nagato was meant to revive Madara. If he had the seal placed on him, he wouldn't be able to use Rinne Tensei.

The cursed seal doesn't have one single purpose silly. It imbeds basic commands like: "Stay alive" or "Stay loyal" or "Kill Naruto" or "Collect Biju" or "Complete Plan"

Hence should have been applied to Nagato.

actually if you think more into it Nagato wasnt given the cursed puppet seal for 3 reasons. Madara implanted his rinnegan into Nagato to have him develop them more and keep them alive. 2 Obito was told to nurture him and bring about his hatred by having his friend killed by him. and 3 Madara is a psychopath and wanted everything to play out by his own manipulations hence he setup everyone else around Nagato to push nagato over the edge and to force nagato to use his own life force to summon the gedo mazu statue

I don't believe that Madara is that much of a fool.

Nagato should have been given imbedded commands like "stay loyal" or "Hate world" or "Trust Madara"

 

[Blubbit]

The cursed seal doesn't have one single purpose silly. It imbeds basic commands like: "Stay alive" or "Stay loyal" or "Kill Naruto" or "Collect Biju" or "Complete Plan"

Hence should have been applied to Nagato.



I don't believe that Madara is that much of a fool.

Nagato should have been given imbedded commands like "stay loyal" or "Hate world" or "Trust Madara"

How would you know that lol? The jutsu was literally just revealed and gave a vague description of how it worked. One of its functions prevents the host from killing themself you know, so they aren't controlled. Both examples of it diplayed that function.

 

[valandil988]

How would you know that lol? The jutsu was literally just revealed and gave a vague description of how it worked. One of its functions prevents the host from killing themself you know, so they aren't controlled.

Because it didn't stop Rin from killing herself by Kakashi. She knew what she was doing jumping in front of his hand yet could still bring herself to commit suicide. Please don't call it anything else.

And if it was just an anti-suicide jutsu wouldn't Nagato ALSO be given this seal? He isn't allowed to die until Madara is revived and Rinne Tensei is used.

Are you telling me that Madara was relying on a 5 year old kid to be resistant to the grief of the world and never take his own life? Not for a guy like Madara he would give him a seal just to be sure. Perhaps with one single loop hole, Rinne tensei.

BesidesI don't even define Rinne Tensei as a suicide jutsu, it is indeed a jutsu that takes you own life but its done in the service of another not of the self.

 

[Blubbit]

Because it didn't stop Rin from killing herself by Kakashi. She knew what she was doing jumping in front of his hand yet could still bring herself to commit suicide. Please don't call it anything else.

And if it was just an anti-suicide jutsu wouldn't Nagato ALSO be given this seal? He isn't allowed to die until Madara is revived and Rinne Tensei is used.

Are you telling me that Madara was relying on a 5 year old kid to be resistant to the grief of the world and never take his own life? Not for a guy like Madara he would give him a seal just to be sure. Perhaps with one single loop hole, Rinne tensei.

That's the loophole Rin and Obito used. Rin technically didn't kill herself, Kakashi killed her. With the explanation you're giving, she could have just slit her own throat at any point beforehand? Because she couldn't, so she used Kakashi.

The jutsu isn't just anti-suicidal. The jutsu obviously controls the user to some extent but the anti-suicide is so they don't stop themselves from going through with the plan. It prevents the user from freeing themselves. Rinne Tensei is suicidal. Meaning if he can't commit suicide, he can't use Rinne Tensei.

 

[Blubbit]

Excuse the double post but you just said that YOU don't define it as suicidal. Well, it's a jutsu that has the user kill themself. That's suicide bud. The seal prevents the user from killing themself and that's exactly what Rinne Tensei does.

 

[Floydical]

The stupidest part of it is that he could have just added Nagato in the mix when he mentioned it. If it were a recent idea, that doesn't explain why Nagato wasn't included. Kishi could have added the fact that Nagato had the seal and it wouldn't have changed anything at all

 

[edo tensai wilmaso]

the seal = 1) anti suicidal
2) not being able to be jubbi jin

purpose of nagato= to bring back madara via rinne tensei ( suicidal ) ... put 2 and 2 together

 

[valandil988]

That's the loophole Rin and Obito used. Rin technically didn't kill herself, Kakashi killed her. With the explanation you're giving, she could have just slit her own throat at any point beforehand? Because she couldn't, so she used Kakashi.

The jutsu isn't just anti-suicidal. The jutsu obviously controls the user to some extent but the anti-suicide is so they don't stop themselves from going through with the plan. It prevents the user from freeing themselves. Rinne Tensei is suicidal. Meaning if he can't commit suicide, he can't use Rinne Tensei.

Excuse the double post but you just said that YOU don't define it as suicidal. Well, it's a jutsu that has the user kill themself. That's suicide bud. The seal prevents the user from killing themself and that's exactly what Rinne Tensei does.

I'm sorry you can nit pick all you like about the nature of the jutsu itself but the fact is it can force the victim to do certain acts. In this case prevent them from commit suicide or.....not as the case may be.

Lets take an example you can get your head around (Read I'm being sarcastic):

Lets say Rin jumps off a cliff.

Did jumping kill her? No. So was that physical suicide? No.

Did the fall kill her as she hits the ground? YES.

Was it suicide? Yes.

Same thing with Kakashi, she took an action that lead to her ultimate death, IE suicide. If you can't understand that one simple fact I won't bother continuing the conversation.

Did jumping in front of Kakashi kill her? No. Did she commit physical suicide? No.

Did the chidori that she consciously jumped in front of kill her? Yes. Ergo did she commit mental suicide? Yes.

Was that whole scenario with kakashi killing her all for angst? Yes. Could she have jumped off a cliff just as easily? Yes.


Sounds like a really shit jutsu doesn't it? It doesn't even stop from happening what it says on the tin. Oh wait I can still commit suicide by cliff jumping or by enemy ninja.....Jeez so bad kishi.
------------------------------

Fact is Madara should have ensured Nagato's loyalty in some way, if he had the ability to use such a seal and perhaps alter its commands -which is a natural assumption on my part. If you can program it to prevent physical suicide then you can most certainly program physical obedience to certain orders.

Why don't you want to entertain the suggested possibilities, not to mention the obvious problems Kishi has introduced with this silly jutsu.

True in order to use Rinne Tensei Nagato would have to commit suicide but truly I view that as a cop out, Madara should have placed a seal for loyalty instead. That way Nagato's actions would actually make a whole lot more sense. As would his weird about face regarding his actions. Was his conviction really that weak?

No one of weak conviction can ever do anything, they simply don't have the stomach to do the things Nagato and the rest of Akatsuki did.

----------------------

Here is a question for you all:

Why the hell did Kishi add this jutsu to the plot???

Ultimately does it add anything?

No it doesn't all it served to do was for Madara to have his weirdo villain sequence of "Muahahaha" "I forced you to do this with my evil evil jutsu" <Lawl.

 

[sLm]

Rinne Tensei is not suicidal. It only killed Nagato because he was low chakra. FFS Konan stated this. Stop with it.

And yes, it is a plot hole. Nagato should have been cursed.

 

[Floydical]

the seal = 1) anti suicidal
2) not being able to be jubbi jin

purpose of nagato= to bring back madara via rinne tensei ( suicidal ) ... put 2 and 2 together

Wrong. Obito was forced to revive Madara with Rinne Tensei TWICE during the war, the first time it failed. Obito is still alive, you put 2 and 2 together. Nagato only died because he revived a massive amount of people while low on chakra.