Hashirama and Tobirama vs Minato and Hiruzen

[Ababeel]

Regardless being the strongest doesn't mean you win the fight, hashirama and tobirama have fought wars together they have better chemistry. ( Hashirama and Tobirama are stated to be the best shinobi if i recall correctly

if they did use RDS then it is not a win for them though is it? and please they were already fodder thanks to orochimaru's ego

Hashirama's hype can easily match hiruzen's if you pile it up tbh

and i will ask again what can hiruzen do to hashirama to kill him?

- Minato and Hiruzen know each other for a really good time as well. Also, knowing each other and fighting along side each other is not necessarily required to fight in harmony. Minato and Tobirama fought along side each other in this war perfectly, yet Tobirama did not know Minato for more than
half an hour or so...

- Why it's not? The senju in the case will be killed first! and even if it isn't, the still works as they won't die by themselves. as for being fodder, well, Hiruzen was not in his best shape either, and he was against 3 at the same time. In addition to that he used 2 clones, and those clones have far less chakra than the old Hiruzen who was already in a bad shape and had less chakra due to the fight...etc

so please, do not look only at the senju satiation and ignore the rest...

- Not really, because no matter how great Hashi's hype is, Hiruzen's hype put him over that because he was out flat stated to be the strongest. Whether you believe in his hype or not, you can't deny that it does exist, and it's written by kishi himself....

- As I said, he can kill him with the raper death, or even with some tools, Hashirama was planning to kill himself with a Kunai, you know?

 

[Apêx1]

Team 1 neg diff.

 

[Minator93]

...hiruzen stalemating SS in his weakest form?
hashirama not having the skill to kill minato?

(until manga shows this fanfic prime hiruzen i will only take that hype as hype from a useless character nothing more) as hiruzen hasn't shown anything to beat hashirama at all, also the op says minato never states that he is an edo (with bm) meaning he is his alive state and tobirama is more than enough to stalemate tobirama.

what can hiruzen possibly do to kill hashirama?

1. Edo Hiruzen is Hiruzen's weakest form, I have the Viz scans U_U

2. Hiraishin trolls Hashirama's entire arsenal whilst there's no counters to Hiraishin itself, Hashirama gets killed U_U

3. Alive Minato with SM still has his Hiraishin Lol He takes care of Hashirama

4. Old Hiruzen soloed Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama, heck even without knowing their power level he was confident enough to tell them to be prepared for a defeat! This shouldn't be even up for a debate tbh U_U

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I still can't rep you! =(

No problem bro

 

[Bogard]

Hashirama solos. Though if Minato has Kyubi, it's more debatable

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Still butt hurt I see, yet calls me upset lmao

Who are you? I'm just stating facts.

 

[Gold Lightning]

Who are you? I'm just stating facts.

Facts? Lol

I'm still waiting for the scans of your outrageous claims. You couldn't provide any, so then you pathetically try and turn the situation around and ask me for scans instead. Always trying to avoid the question, putting words in my mouth of things I never said, never having anything to back up your point and then getting upset for me calling you out in it.

I don't even think you know the difference between your opinion and a fact.

 

[Bogard]

I'm actually interested in this one. May you tell me how do you think Hashirama is going to solo them?

Hashirama is earth itself, too much fire power and chakra. Minato would resist due to his space time techniques, but he will end up getting outlasted(Hiruzen would die in the crossfire)

 

[Blue Flash Of The Senju]

minato faster than lightning I don't know if hashirama can react to that

 

[Inert Brian]

Assuming prime Hiruzen.

Hype: Minato and Hiruzen

Manga-only: Hashi solos

 

[Hokage Jay]

Prime Hiruzen lol.....

 

[LegendaryAce]

- Minato and Hiruzen know each other for a really good time as well. Also, knowing each other and fighting along side each other is not necessarily required to fight in harmony. Minato and Tobirama fought along side each other in this war perfectly, yet Tobirama did not know Minato for more than
half an hour or so...

- Why it's not? The senju in the case will be killed first! and even if it isn't, the still works as they won't die by themselves. as for being fodder, well, Hiruzen was not in his best shape either, and he was against 3 at the same time. In addition to that he used 2 clones, and those clones have far less chakra than the old Hiruzen who was already in a bad shape and had less chakra due to the fight...etc

so please, do not look only at the senju satiation and ignore the rest...

- Not really, because no matter how great Hashi's hype is, Hiruzen's hype put him over that because he was out flat stated to be the strongest. Whether you believe in his hype or not, you can't deny that it does exist, and it's written by kishi himself....

- As I said, he can kill him with the raper death, or even with some tools, Hashirama was planning to kill himself with a Kunai, you know?

Tobirama and Minato used a similar technique for it was easy for them to understand each other (ofcourse hiruzen and minato knew each other for a while so this might not be as important.)

Why is it not? they all die meaning it is a draw regardless who dies first its a suicide technique

Both you and minator are using age as an excuse? now lets see onoki is older than hiruzen yet he was doing more than expected at his age no? Lets see senju bros had no control whatsoever to themselves so by that it should never be used as a reference to hiruzen > senju brothers.

The only reason aswell hiruzen was able to catch them was because orochimaru never really wanted to kill him he wanted to toy with him until hiruzen sealed the senju bros that when orochimaru kinda realised what was happening.

hashirama's hype can and should match hiruzen's hype
-Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of all

This hype is debatable because it says he was "said" to be the strongest of all (By who? for this statement to be true it had to have been said by people who witnessed both hashirama and hiruzen) but it is highly unlikely that they knew about the extent of hashirama power as kabuto said people hailed him as a fairytale - this means hashirama sounded so unreal that people didn't believe it but they easily said hiruzen was strong because it was more believable than someone who used trees to control bijuus and someone who could summon a statue so big that it can easily jump mountains, they both have the god of shinobi title and they both know alot of jutsu (hashirama earns this through the senju hype) (hashirama also has the strongest of his time , Best shinobi and kabuto said that noone alive could rival him - with the likes of obito alive at the time and dan who should have been alive at prime hiruzen's time or close enough never mentioned hiruzen when they needed someone to beat madara - you could argue that hashirama beat him before but if dan saw how strong hiruzen was wouldn't you choose him instead? ) his hype at this point is only hype (the prime one) but the justu one i could see it being true as he has shown he can use all elements.

hiruzen would have to get close enough to kill him with a kunai though which would be hard to do and he will have clones on the field meaning they would have a hard time knowing which the real hashirama is.

 

[Oblivionx]

if minato has kyubi then team 2 has it's chances... otherwise team 1 wins...
on 2nd thought, it could be disaster for team 1... both minato and hiruzen are reaper death seal users... and we know seal can be used with clones, lel even if one of them uses it, it's over for senju bros....!

 

[Apêx1]

minato faster than lightning I don't know if hashirama can react to that

Faster than lightning? It's not even a constant speed bruh, although your post gives off the view that you don't understand physics yet are trying to integrate it into your argument.

 

[Memento Mori]

Team 1 Wins High diff

Did hiruzen is in his prime??
Is it kcm/BM Minato or not??

 

[Minator93]

Hashirama is earth itself, too much fire power and chakra. Minato would resist due to his space time techniques, but he will end up getting outlasted(Hiruzen would die in the crossfire)

??

Minato won't get outlasted, he won't be dodging all the time he'll be coming close to finish off Hashirama. And I don't see Hashirama's firepower working against Minato tbh

1. Jukai Koutan - Minato shunshin or Hiraishin
2. FTW - Minato Hiraishin
3. Mokuton Wooden Dragon - Hiraishin
4. Mokuton binding - Hiraishin
5. Wooden Golem - Hiraishin

Whilst I don't see how Hashirama counters Hiraishin, Hiraishin Level 2, Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi augmented with clones. I mean yeah Hashirama has his healing powers and all but what's he gonna do if he get his head blasted by Rasengan or throat slit by Hiraishin Kunai.

We know that Orochimaru had more jutsus, firepower, chakra, tools than Itachi yet he was beaten by just "1-jutsu"

So imho all of Hashirama's firepower that works against all doesn't have the same results against 3 S/T'ers i.e. Minato, Tobirama and Obito.

 

[Ababeel]

Hashirama is earth itself, too much fire power and chakra. Minato would resist due to his space time techniques, but he will end up getting outlasted(Hiruzen would die in the crossfire)

Other than the Buddha, which can be teleported via S/T barrier, why do you think Hiruzen can't do this to Hashirama's other wooden jutsus? [

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The flower jutsu?
Hiruzen can do this [

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], to burn it down [

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].

of course, instead of using water, lightning, earth jutsus, he would replace them with fire and wind. The fire is to burn
the jutsu down, and the wind to make those fire jutsus stronger & to carry the pollen to other direction, so it does not
effect them.

Or of course he can use 1 clone to make the wind attack, instead of dividing his power...

long story short, he is not as useless as you think he is...

[=LegendaryAce;15494167]Tobirama and Minato used a similar technique for it was easy for them to understand each other (ofcourse hiruzen and minato knew each other for a while so this might not be as important.)

so we pretty much agree here. Since Hiruzen and Minato know each other, that's balance everything else.

Why is it not? they all die meaning it is a draw regardless who dies first its a suicide technique

you can consider that why i suppose.

Both you and minator are using age as an excuse? now lets see onoki is older than hiruzen yet he was doing more than expected at his age no? Lets see senju bros had no control whatsoever to themselves so by that it should never be used as a reference to hiruzen > senju brothers.

We use it like an excuse? Do you mean that you did not see the manga and what KISHI hightlighted during that fight? Then, allow me to refresh your memory...
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As you can see kishi did use it himself. Do you think if this is not an important factor he would highlight it throughout the entire battle? He constantly mentioned that Hiruzen's chakra is way weaker than how it used to be.

and using different example for different people does not work, as people age in different ways. Can I tell you
look at madara he was brought back beyond his prime-self, so you can't use the excuse that the ET made Hashirama
and Tobirama weaker? No, obviously not. As the ET was used by different people who can some the dead at different level of power...

The only reason aswell hiruzen was able to catch them was because orochimaru never really wanted to kill him he wanted to toy with him until hiruzen sealed the senju bros that when orochimaru kinda realised what was happening.

No, toying with his as far as I remember is a mistranslation. If you can remind me which page Oro said he will only toy
with him, it'd be appreciated.

hashirama's hype can and should match hiruzen's hype
-Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of all

How can Hashi's hype match another hype that clearly states Hiruzen being stronger?

This hype is debatable because it says he was "said" to be the strongest of all (By who? for this statement to be true it had to have been said by people who witnessed both hashirama and hiruzen) but it is highly unlikely that they knew about the extent of hashirama power as kabuto said people hailed him as a fairytale - this means hashirama sounded so unreal that people didn't believe it but they easily said hiruzen was strong because it was more believable than someone who used trees to control bijuus and someone who could summon a statue so big that it can easily jump mountains, they both have the god of shinobi title and they both know alot of jutsu (hashirama earns this through the senju hype) (hashirama also has the strongest of his time , Best shinobi and kabuto said that noone alive could rival him - with the likes of obito alive at the time and dan who should have been alive at prime hiruzen's time or close enough never mentioned hiruzen when they needed someone to beat madara - you could argue that hashirama beat him before but if dan saw how strong hiruzen was wouldn't you choose him instead? ) his hype at this point is only hype (the prime one) but the justu one i could see it being true as he has shown he can use all elements.

people in Konoha know about Hashirama obviously, otherwise why would they hail him as

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?

- The senju hype is about the clan as a whole, that does not mean every single one has that. Tsunade is from the Senju, yet she only use taijutsu and medical jutsus. On the other hand, Hiruzen's hype is specifically for him that he
knows all the jutsus in konoha.

- Dan did not also say that Gai would fodderstomps Hashirama, does that mean Hashirama is stronger than 8th gate gai? No. What Dan is saying is basically that Hashirama did indeed fight madara, and defeated him, so he's sure that he would win, even though when Hashirama returned he actually lost. In addition to that, if people did not believe that Hashi's power was real, then why and how did Dan know about his power and that he's the only one who can defeat madara? :yeah:

- The hype being only hype was used as well against Kakashi's statement about the 8th gate, and about kakashi's statement about the sharingan/Byakugan origin, and against Gaara's statement about the shukaku and the priest...etc

and guess what? All of those were proven to be correct, and the fans were always wrong when it comes to this, when they say "retecon" "Kishi changed his mind"....etc so, this is not a proof.

hiruzen would have to get close enough to kill him with a kunai though which would be hard to do and he will have clones on the field meaning they would have a hard time knowing which the real hashirama is.

Well, that's why Minato and his teleporting jutsus there.
as for the clones, both Hiruzen and Minato have clones as well. Also, Hashirama's clones are rather weak, I don't think
it will take a long time for Minato to wipe the hell out of them, same style he did in the 3rd War.

anyway, this is how I see it, perhaps with more feats things might change even a little
since Hiruzen is still fighting, and Minato still has at least one jutsu to use...

thanks for your time...

 

[Bogard]

Other than the Buddha, which can be teleported via S/T barrier, why do you think Hiruzen can't do this to Hashirama's other wooden jutsus? [

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][

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][

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][

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]

The flower jutsu?
Hiruzen can do this [

You must be registered for see links

], to burn it down [

You must be registered for see links

].

of course, instead of using water, lightning, earth jutsus, he would replace them with fire and wind. The fire is to burn
the jutsu down, and the wind to make those fire jutsus stronger & to carry the pollen to other direction, so it does not
effect them.

Or of course he can use 1 clone to make the wind attack, instead of dividing his power...

long story short, he is not as useless as you think he is...

You only show their counters but countering techniques alone won't bring them anywhere

Hashirama doesn't only have Shinsusenju. I think you're severly underrating his fighting capability. He can create wood from every part of the earth. His Mokuton hotei no jutsu for example is something you must also think about [

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]. Without teleportation technique or enough fire power, it's not something that would be easy to dodge.

He can merge himself with earth while performing no handseals needed wood clones without you knowing [

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] Without Madara's dojutsu and sensing ability, you can be fooled by this ruse just like Madara [

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] and Hiruzen isn't a sensor. There is also bringer of darkness we've seen Hiruzen was incapable to break

Not to mention his Byakugou like regeneration and sage mode durability, strength and sensing feats

Not saying Hiruzen is useless, but like i show, Hiruzen would need not only reactivity, but also massive chakra reserves to counter the above mentioned with the capabilities you listed and in the end it would be no good for him considering his chakra reserve compared to a chakra beast like Hashirama. It's for this reason i believe he would die in the cross fire. Minato being a sensor and space-time user has more chances to counter, but himself pales in comparison to Hashirama in terms of chakra

 

[LegendaryAce]

Other than the Buddha, which can be teleported via S/T barrier, why do you think Hiruzen can't do this to Hashirama's other wooden jutsus? [

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][

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][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

]

The flower jutsu?
Hiruzen can do this [

You must be registered for see links

], to burn it down [

You must be registered for see links

].

of course, instead of using water, lightning, earth jutsus, he would replace them with fire and wind. The fire is to burn
the jutsu down, and the wind to make those fire jutsus stronger & to carry the pollen to other direction, so it does not
effect them.

Or of course he can use 1 clone to make the wind attack, instead of dividing his power...

long story short, he is not as useless as you think he is...


so we pretty much agree here. Since Hiruzen and Minato know each other, that's balance everything else.


you can consider that why i suppose.


We use it like an excuse? Do you mean that you did not see the manga and what KISHI hightlighted during that fight? Then, allow me to refresh your memory...
[

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][

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][

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][

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][

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]

As you can see kishi did use it himself. Do you think if this is not an important factor he would highlight it throughout the entire battle? He constantly mentioned that Hiruzen's chakra is way weaker than how it used to be.

and using different example for different people does not work, as people age in different ways. Can I tell you
look at madara he was brought back beyond his prime-self, so you can't use the excuse that the ET made Hashirama
and Tobirama weaker? No, obviously not. As the ET was used by different people who can some the dead at different level of power...

No, toying with his as far as I remember is a mistranslation. If you can remind me which page Oro said he will only toy
with him, it'd be appreciated.


How can Hashi's hype match another hype that clearly states Hiruzen being stronger?


people in Konoha know about Hashirama obviously, otherwise why would they hail him as

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?

- The senju hype is about the clan as a whole, that does not mean every single one has that. Tsunade is from the Senju, yet she only use taijutsu and medical jutsus. On the other hand, Hiruzen's hype is specifically for him that he
knows all the jutsus in konoha.

- Dan did not also say that Gai would fodderstomps Hashirama, does that mean Hashirama is stronger than 8th gate gai? No. What Dan is saying is basically that Hashirama did indeed fight madara, and defeated him, so he's sure that he would win, even though when Hashirama returned he actually lost. In addition to that, if people did not believe that Hashi's power was real, then why and how did Dan know about his power and that he's the only one who can defeat madara? :yeah:

- The hype being only hype was used as well against Kakashi's statement about the 8th gate, and about kakashi's statement about the sharingan/Byakugan origin, and against Gaara's statement about the shukaku and the priest...etc

and guess what? All of those were proven to be correct, and the fans were always wrong when it comes to this, when they say "retecon" "Kishi changed his mind"....etc so, this is not a proof.




Well, that's why Minato and his teleporting jutsus there.
as for the clones, both Hiruzen and Minato have clones as well. Also, Hashirama's clones are rather weak, I don't think
it will take a long time for Minato to wipe the hell out of them, same style he did in the 3rd War.

anyway, this is how I see it, perhaps with more feats things might change even a little
since Hiruzen is still fighting, and Minato still has at least one jutsu to use...

thanks for your time...

Some of the points fair enough (but i for one need proof of hiruzen's power ill gladly apologise after i see it) - and the reason i said people didnt really know his power, i meant that they didnt believe it (they heard of it but really didn't think is was true)

Also hashirama's clones were only weak against a prime+ madara ( it also wouldn't be a far fetch to say hashirama knew alot of jutsu since he did have some scrolls that hiruzen had and also knew forbidden techs ect)

The fight would be hashirama vs hiruzen and minato vs tobirama, tobirama should be enough to keep minato busy while hashirama deals with hiruzen

Hashirama makes clones (i am guessing hiruzen would too) hashirama's clones should be > hiruzens in terms of durability

Hashirama uses FTW and you could argue hiruzen uses FIRE and WIND but for him to do that he had to breath in the pollen (also minato would be busy with tobirama to help hiruzen in this case

Hashirama goes sm which would be hard for hiruzen (unless you think hiruzen stalemates a SS barrage) - arguably minato would probably teleport it away but hashirama has more than enough chakra to use other jutsu

and BOD would be key here yes of course hiruzen did show that he can fight against it but that was against the senju bros short distance (while they were being controlled like fodder) and to your argument about orochimaru toying look at the page were he is fighting hiruzen he is always laughing and spouting nonsense until hiruzen seals the senju bros that's when his face changes and he becomes serious (BOD would still affect minato and hiruzen long ranged)

And if you guys are using the BM minato (SM minato) and Prime hiruzen then give hashirama 2-9 bijuu (obviously you would argue against that), BM minato is Edo OP doesn't state which minato and his SM he cant really use that well in a fight 1 hit at most.

Lets also not forget that hashirama Could drop gates on either hiruzen or BM minato anyway it should hold them enough to do a lethal blow (these gates were holding the juubi lets not forget), BOD + Gates then followed with FTW and then just pierce them with concentrated water and wood GG


And to be honest this fight depends on the info and op doesn't give enough to go on.

 

[KidGamer65]

Hashirama would solo.

 

[Benjamin King]

Hiruzen is a weak support for Minato. Hashirama would solo.