[Discussion] Ichigo(before royal training) vs sternritter..

[TenzaZangetsu]

Right now he can pretty much stomp any sternritter, but what about before training in the royal palace, how do you think Ichigo would've fared against each of them??

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vs Bach
Too obvious..

vs Uryu Ishida
Current Uryuu is too fantastic for pre-training Ichigo, in fact it's even debatable who's strnger right now..:yeah:

vs Haschwalt
Haschwalt one-paneled tenza-zangetsu so Ichigo would be anally raped..

vs Askin Nakk Le Vaar
His hype puts him among the cream of the sternritter so Ichigo wouldn't stand a chance..

vs Bambietta
Shinji got knocked out with one bomb, Ichigos speed would only delay his defeat coz those bombs(or rather being made a bomb) is really a b*tch to deal with..

vs As Nodt
One fear thorn and it's all over for Ichigo, Byakuya was far mentally stronger than Ichigo but still succumbed to the fear so Ichigo wouldn't do any better..

vs Litotto Lamperd
She seems tricky to deal with, but he'd win somehow..

vs Bazz B
Bazz B would burn Ichigo a new *******, he's probably one of the strongest quincy..

vs Cang Du
Iron wont save Cang Du from Ichigo, Kurosaki-kun would win mid-high diff

vs Kirge/Quilge Opie
Ichigo soloed..

vs BG9
BG9 would get stomped without a doubt, his weaponry couldn't mortally would Ichigo..

vs Driscoll Berci
I'm not too sure about this one, I suppose Ichigo would win very high diff

vs Meninas McAllon
She'd probably get stomped..

vs Berenice Gabrielli
She's get whupped by Ichigo despite probably being hax..

vs Jerome Guizbatt
Ichigo would be too trill for his ape ass..

vs Mask De Masculine
Or dear, Ichigo would do well against base Mask, but once he goes vollstandig Ichigo would be beaten thoroughly by the one-mile-arts and it won't be pretty, supernova would be overkill..

vs Candice Catnipp
She aint ready for Rukias boyfriend, no, better stay in the kitchen..

vs Nanana Najahkoop
It seems he's Renjis next opponent and will probably push Renji to his very limit and more , so Ichigo would get stomped hard..

vs Gremmy
Although I hate to admit this, but, Ichigo would lose :'(

vs Royd or Loyd
It depends on who they would copy..

vs Giselle Gewelle
She seems to be second in the Bambi-babes, so Ichigo won't have it easy, hard to tell..

vs Pepe/Yajiuma
That guy seems deadly, his hype stomps Ichigo big tym..

vs KFC/Colonel-Sander quincy
He shot out Shunsuis ey so Ichigo would get rammed..

What are your thoughts??

 

[Dãrth1]

I agree, and Gremmy would just make a meteor, only mugetsu to stop it, so or the seireitei is destroyed or he loses his powers once again

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Your picture is old

1. It's sure that he would lose to Bach, Uryu and Hashwalth.
2. Askin's powers isn't revealed yet, but by hype he should be able to overpower Ichigo, same goes for Pepe.
3. We didn't really got Bambietta's power level, we just saw her loosing to Human Komamura and we don't really know how much Koma is strong, but i would also said that Ichigo would lose this match up.
4. Against As, it would be close, but still Ichigo would lose.
5. We still don't have a clue how much Bambietta's group is strong, since Bambietta was their leader, i will say that Ichigo should be able to take them.
6. Bazz-B would also beat him, he beat Hitsugaya with just two fingers.
7. I'm really sad that Cang Du was killed on that stupid way (with more development he would be a great character), anyways Ichigo should be able to beat him and same goes for BG9.
8. Ichigo already beat Quilge.
9. We never got power of Driscol, he was able to kill Chojiro, so i don't really know how this match up would end.
10. Ichigo would take Loyd, Jerome and Berenice in the same way how Zaraki done.
11. Mask de Masculine would fodderize Ichigo, Mask was able to beat Rose, Kensei, Hisagi, Ikkaku and Yumichika with just 10% of his Base powers.
12. NaNaNa should be able to take Ichigo. For sure we don't know his powers, but you yourself made a good point.
13. Grammy is beast, i was laughing so hard, when he said "i'm strongest SR" but i wouldn't be surprised if he really is, he take this.
14. Royd would fodderize him, it was said that he don't copy powers, he just copy memories and appearance, so nearly all the power he used against Yama was his own.
15. Shaz Domino was already one-shoted by battle worn Ichigo, so Ichigo take this without much effort.
16. Colonel Sanders should be able to take him.

Wow, just after writting all this i realized how strong Wandenreich really is.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Really don't see ichigo beating that many of them not bg9 or cang du..nether of then showed their full power.

 

[illidanson]

Meeh... Here's what I think:

vs Bach
Ichigo gets pulverized

vs Uryu Ishida
Too fantastic?? Are you reading another manga than me?? Cause in this one we haven't seen Uryu's new powers yet... But yea, he's hopefully strong enough to beat Pre-Squad 0 Ichigo

vs Haschwalt
Well yea, I think it was pretty obvious from their encounter that Haschwalt was superior.

vs Askin Nakk Le Vaar
Hype only means something if there is some legit hype, like other sternritters saying how strong he is or something. Since there isn't we know NOTHING about how strong he is.

vs Bambietta
Honestly... Even know I think Bambietta would be the stronger of the 2 in this scenario, I still see Ichigo winning since speed is a pretty good counter to Bambiettas techniques and he has quite a bit of that.

vs As Nodt
Yup, one fear thorn and it's all over for Ichigo. But again, Speed is OP. However As Nodts Vollstandig might be able to take out Ichigo... So actually I think As Nodt would win, but I'm not 100 % sure.

vs Litotto Lamperd
I don't even know who that is! Stop naming characters we haven't seen fight yet!

vs Bazz B
Nahh, honestly I don't think Bazz B is one of the strongest quincy. Him taking down Hitsugaya with a few fingers was probably just to demonstrate just how strong the Sternritter are in general (Only for the captains and the people who got OP Squad 0 training to stomp them shortly after, cause Kubo is a bad writer, but whatever)
Overall I think pre-Squad 0 Ichigo is superior in both speed, strength and having the most powerful attacks, so I see him winning with mid diff.

vs Cang Du
Meehhh... We didn't see much from him. And what we saw wasn't enough, so i'll say Ichigo low diff.


vs Kirge/Quilge Opie
Ichigo indeed Soloed

vs BG9
I don't think you should underestimate BG9 considering that he took down Sui-Fon despite her Eternal Shunko. That being said Ichigo can definitely still win, but it will definitely be with mid diff.

vs Driscoll Berci
All he did was use a stolen bankai. Ichigo stomps from what we've seen.

vs Meninas McAllon
We haven't seen her fight! So don't put her on here!

vs Berenice Gabrielli
Well... Kenpachi stomed her so yea she's done for.

vs Jerome Guizbatt
Same as the above.

vs Mask De Masculine
Yea Mask in Vollstandig is pretty damn OP... So I say Mask, but still with high diff cause Ichigo is pretty damn strong after all

vs Candice Catnipp
So.... did you get it yet?? Don't put people without feats on here!!

vs Nanana Najahkoop
Well maybe. But once again, no feats. It could go both ways for all we know.

vs Gremmy
Why do you hate to admit that??? But yea Gremmy takes this with mid diff probably. His power is OP, even if he has to keep focus or whatever it is.

vs Royd or Loyd
Yea you're obviously right about that. Saying vs. Royd or Loyd is not really a match up, you might as well say vs. any random shinigami. It's all about who they copy.


vs Giselle Gewelle
Assumptions, assumptions. She might as well turn out to be the Soul King in disguise for all we know.

vs Pepe/Yajiuma
Not legit hype and all that. Who cares.

vs KFC/Colonel-Sander quincy
Rammed might be an overstatement. But yea the Moustache Sternritter is OP, he takes it with mid diff at most.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

vs Askin Nakk Le Vaar
Hype only means something if there is some legit hype, like other sternritters saying how strong he is or something. Since there isn't we know NOTHING about how strong he is.

It's not just about how other characters think about some character, to me it's much more important how Kubo portray some character.
Kubo always save important/strong character from end. It also happen with Espada, for example Ulq and Yammu are first introduced in the series, but they are one of strongest, same can go for Tier and Starrk but we didn't see their power until FKT arc, same can be said for characters like Hashwalth, Askin, Pepe and you can clearly see that Kubo kill/removed some SR (Cang Du, BG9, As Nodt who didn't got much development, some of SR didn't even got development) and that leaves more room to development some other characters, like Askin, Pepe, Bazz-B, Hashwalth.

Just the fact that Kubo didn't make Askin fight against Mayuri and than being fodderized by Urahara (same how for example Ulq didn't fight Urahara/Yoruichi or how Starrk didn't fight Ichigo/Zaraki). Like i said Kubo always introduce strong character early and than keep them in secret for long it also interiwined with Askin not having revealed his epithet yet. I can for sure say that Askin will be one hell of character (in both personality and power)

 

[illidanson]

It's not just about how other characters think about some character, to me it's much more important how Kubo portray some character.
Kubo always save important/strong character from end. It also happen with Espada, for example Ulq and Yammu are first introduced in the series, but they are one of strongest, same can go for Tier and Starrk but we didn't see their power until FKT arc, same can be said for characters like Hashwalth, Askin, Pepe and you can clearly see that Kubo kill/removed some SR (Cang Du, BG9, As Nodt who didn't got much development, some of SR didn't even got development) and that leaves more room to development some other characters, like Askin, Pepe, Bazz-B, Hashwalth.

Just the fact that Kubo didn't make Askin fight against Mayuri and than being fodderized by Urahara (same how for example Ulq didn't fight Urahara/Yoruichi or how Starrk didn't fight Ichigo/Zaraki). Like i said Kubo always introduce strong character early and than keep them in secret for long it also interiwined with Askin not having revealed his epithet yet. I can for sure say that Askin will be one hell of character (in both personality and power)

Nahh, I find how Kubo potrays them irrelevant. SURE there's a pretty big chance that he'll be quite strong, but there is NO REAL EVIDENCE to back it up. Other characters talking about how strong they are is evidence, however how Kubo makes it seem, it not really any evidence.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Nahh, I find how Kubo potrays them irrelevant. SURE there's a pretty big chance that he'll be quite strong, but there is NO REAL EVIDENCE to back it up. Other characters talking about how strong they are is evidence, however how Kubo makes it seem, it not really any evidence.

No, not really. Espadas were hyped to be stronger than captains in Gotei, but in the end we know what happened.

 

[illidanson]

No, not really. Espadas were hyped to be stronger than captains in Gotei, but in the end we know what happened.

When exactly we're they hyped to be STRONGER than the captains??? I think they we're only said to be on par with them.

But in any case that's typical Kubo. Whenever he introduces a new group of villains (Espada, Sternritter) they're always said to be stronger than/on par with the captains. But ofc the captains suddenly turn out to be stronger or become stronger or whatever.

Kubo just wants to make the manga as interesting as possible. Whether it all adds up in the end, isn't all that important to him.

Besides I didn't say characters talking about how strong someone is, is solid evidence. Ofc feats is always the most important. I still think it's more relevant that how Kubo portrays the characters though.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Hitsugaya said that Vasto Lorde's strength surpass strength of captain.
It's already said that they are five or less Vasto Lorde hollows. Tier is confirmed to be one of them and consider that both Coyote and Barragan were higher rank than her, should also be VL. Coyote was even during his hollow days very humanoid, and VL resemble humans a lot. Barragan was King of Hueco Mundo and i don't see the reason why would non-VL be ruler. Also there are possibility that Ulq is VL, he also have humanoid appearance during his hollow days.
So that mean 4 VL and it was said that Vasto Lorde power level is > or = with captain, and after becoming arrancars they are got power boots so that should also mean that Arrancar Vasto Lorde > captain level. In the end Coyote lost to Shikai Kyoraku and Tier lost to Hitsugaya.

Even if it said that they are equal with them, it still don't change my point that they got fodderized by captains.

 

[illidanson]

Hitsugaya said that Vasto Lorde's strength surpass strength of captain.
It's already said that they are five or less Vasto Lorde hollows. Tier is confirmed to be one of them and consider that both Coyote and Barragan were higher rank than her, should also be VL. Coyote was even during his hollow days very humanoid, and VL resemble humans a lot. Barragan was King of Hueco Mundo and i don't see the reason why would non-VL be ruler. Also there are possibility that Ulq is VL, he also have humanoid appearance during his hollow days.
So that mean 4 VL and it was said that Vasto Lorde power level is > or = with captain, and after becoming arrancars they are got power boots so that should also mean that Arrancar Vasto Lorde > captain level. In the end Coyote lost to Shikai Kyoraku and Tier lost to Hitsugaya.

Even if it said that they are equal with them, it still don't change my point that they got fodderized by captains.

You said it yourself: Vasto Lorde > Captains. Not Espada > Captains.

And ofc saying that doesn't mean that ALL Vasto Lorde are stronger than ALL captains. It's probably more about average strength. And if you compared the average strength of Harribel, Barragen and Starrk, it was probably above average captain strength (At the time), considering that the only ones above Starkk and Barragen was probably Kenpachi, Shunsui and Yamamoto (But Yamamoto probably wasn't counted, since he was on a whole other level) (Btw. I doubt Ukitake was stronger than them, due to his disease. If he was healthy he might have been though).

And saying that Ulquiorra might be a Vastal Lorde doesn't really help prove your point as he was in seconds form at least as strong as the other 3, and probably stronger.

So, yea some of the Espada was not as strong as the captains, however the ones that we're Vasto Lorde WAS.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I can say with quite sure that there were three VL before Arrancar's creation (+ possibly Ulq), that three when hollow should already be on average captain level (example Byakuya, Hitsugaya) or possibly stronger than them. With Aizen modifications they power grow up and at least they should be stronger than average captain (Hitsugaya) but in the end we saw Tier (VL before Arrancar) loosing to him, even throught she should be even when hollow on his level or higher.

Again VL level is > or = with average captain and Grimmjow for example was near being VL level, he was adjuchast but his power was a lot higher than other adjuchas class hollows (Shawlong, Yylfordt,..) so after Aizen's modifications he should at least be that VL level.
Same goes for Nnoitra, Nnoitra was ranked higher than Grimmjow and he is the only Arrancar, alongside Szayel that was show growing in power, consider that he move on three position even though Espada as whole group become stronger.

So, yea some of the Espada was not as strong as the captains, however the ones that we're Vasto Lorde WAS.

You understand that by Hitsugaya's words Tier as hollow should be at least on his level of power (if no stronger), but she lost even after Aizen's modification. That contradict fact about what you talking "characters statement is evidence".

 

[illidanson]

I can say with quite sure that there were three VL before Arrancar's creation (+ possibly Ulq), that three when hollow should already be on average captain level (example Byakuya, Hitsugaya) or possibly stronger than them. With Aizen modifications they power grow up and at least they should be stronger than average captain (Hitsugaya) but in the end we saw Tier (VL before Arrancar) loosing to him, even throught she should be even when hollow on his level or higher.

Again VL level is > or = with average captain and Grimmjow for example was near being VL level, he was adjuchast but his power was a lot higher than other adjuchas class hollows (Shawlong, Yylfordt,..) so after Aizen's modifications he should at least be that VL level.
Same goes for Nnoitra, Nnoitra was ranked higher than Grimmjow and he is the only Arrancar, alongside Szayel that was show growing in power, consider that he move on three position even though Espada as whole group become stronger.



You understand that by Hitsugaya's words Tier as hollow should be at least on his level of power (if no stronger), but she lost even after Aizen's modification. That contradict fact about what you talking "characters statement is evidence".

And now you just stopped making sense.... It's ridiculous to think that just because an adjuchas gets made into an arrancar it's suddenly on freaking Vasto Lorde level. Hitusgaya made it clear that Vasto Lorde are on an whole other level than other hollows, and basicly made it sound like they we'rent even comparable, so I highly doubt turning into an arrancar will increase their strength nearly that much.

And again as I pointed out: It's about average strength. Tier was the weakest Vasto Lorde and Hitsugaya was certainly above average captain level back then, when you think about how freaking strong the technique he used to beat Tier was.

An as I freaking said: Other character statements is not nearly as solid evidence as feats, but it's more legit that how
strong Kubo might and might not imply that the character is. Just think about the beginning of the manga. It was clear that Yamamoto was implied to be on a whole other level than any of the captains, but in the end Aizen surpasses him. Chad also seemed to be quite strong, but when he got into some real fight (Against Shunsui) he turned out to be a fodder.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

And now you just stopped making sense.... It's ridiculous to think that just because an adjuchas gets made into an arrancar it's suddenly on freaking Vasto Lorde level. Hitusgaya made it clear that Vasto Lorde are on an whole other level than other hollows, and basicly made it sound like they we'rent even comparable, so I highly doubt turning into an arrancar will increase their strength nearly that much.

And again as I pointed out: It's about average strength. Tier was the weakest Vasto Lorde and Hitsugaya was certainly above average captain level back then, when you think about how freaking strong the technique he used to beat Tier was.

An as I freaking said: Other character statements is not nearly as solid evidence as feats, but it's more legit that how
strong Kubo might and might not imply that the character is. Just think about the beginning of the manga. It was clear that Yamamoto was implied to be on a whole other level than any of the captains, but in the end Aizen surpasses him. Chad also seemed to be quite strong, but when he got into some real fight (Against Shunsui) he turned out to be a fodder.

Aizen an halibel are still alive they might speak on this subject some more.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Hitsugaya said that Vasto Lorde's strength surpass strength of captain.
It's already said that they are five or less Vasto Lorde hollows. Tier is confirmed to be one of them and consider that both Coyote and Barragan were higher rank than her, should also be VL. Coyote was even during his hollow days very humanoid, and VL resemble humans a lot. Barragan was King of Hueco Mundo and i don't see the reason why would non-VL be ruler. Also there are possibility that Ulq is VL, he also have humanoid appearance during his hollow days.
So that mean 4 VL and it was said that Vasto Lorde power level is > or = with captain, and after becoming arrancars they are got power boots so that should also mean that Arrancar Vasto Lorde > captain level. In the end Coyote lost to Shikai Kyoraku and Tier lost to Hitsugaya.

Even if it said that they are equal with them, it still don't change my point that they got fodderized by captains.

Halibel was only confirmed to be a VL in the anime not the manga..but I guess sense it was said in the anime you can't change it around in the manga now?

 

[Forbidden Tale]

And now you just stopped making sense.... It's ridiculous to think that just because an adjuchas gets made into an arrancar it's suddenly on freaking Vasto Lorde level. Hitusgaya made it clear that Vasto Lorde are on an whole other level than other hollows, and basicly made it sound like they we'rent even comparable, so I highly doubt turning into an arrancar will increase their strength nearly that much.

Hitsugaya also stated that Hyogaku could make Arrancar VL level.
Grimmjow was already high above average adjuchas level, so i don't now why that don't make sense? Also consider that he for opponent got main character, was main characters' rival and was able even to keep up with him, even though Bankai Ichigo with Mask was above average captain level.

And again as I pointed out: It's about average strength. Tier was the weakest Vasto Lorde and Hitsugaya was certainly above average captain level back then, when you think about how freaking strong the technique he used to beat Tier was.

Hitsugaya was above average captain level? What's then is Kyoraku, Ukitake, Hirako and others? God level?

An as I freaking said: Other character statements is not nearly as solid evidence as feats, but it's more legit that how strong Kubo might and might not imply that the character is.

Well, i already pointed out, how Kubo create and develop character. We will wait and see later on.

Just think about the beginning of the manga. It was clear that Yamamoto was implied to be on a whole other level than any of the captains, but in the end Aizen surpasses him.

I don't get why people think Aizen surpassed Yama, when he himself said that Yama's abilities can exceed his own. But thats not topic, even if Aizen surpassed Yama, which i doubt, it was because of Hyogaku, not because of his Shinigami skills.

Chad also seemed to be quite strong, but when he got into some real fight (Against Shunsui) he turned out to be a fodder.

Why do you think that?
Chad was originaly just ordinary human, and with just ten days of training he become strong enough to one-shot 3rd seat, consider his power level back than i'm quite sure that he could beat some vice captains also. About his fight against Shunsui, Shunsui is senior captain level shinigami who later on become Captain Commander, it just speak for itself how much he is powerful. Also it was already stated that difference between captains and other officiers are enormous and that power of gotei lay in their captains. I don't see Shikai Renji, or Ichigo who fought agains Jibando keeping any better against Kyoraku.

Halibel was only confirmed to be a VL in the anime not the manga..but I guess sense it was said in the anime you can't change it around in the manga now?

It was confirmed in databook that Harribel is VL.

 

[illidanson]

Hitsugaya also stated that Hyogaku could make Arrancar VL level.
Grimmjow was already high above average adjuchas level, so i don't now why that don't make sense? Also consider that he for opponent got main character, was main characters' rival and was able even to keep up with him, even though Bankai Ichigo with Mask was above average captain level.



Hitsugaya was above average captain level? What's then is Kyoraku, Ukitake, Hirako and others? God level?



Well, i already pointed out, how Kubo create and develop character. We will wait and see later on.



I don't get why people think Aizen surpassed Yama, when he himself said that Yama's abilities can exceed his own. But thats not topic, even if Aizen surpassed Yama, which i doubt, it was because of Hyogaku, not because of his Shinigami skills.



Why do you think that?
Chad was originaly just ordinary human, and with just ten days of training he become strong enough to one-shot 3rd seat, consider his power level back than i'm quite sure that he could beat some vice captains also. About his fight against Shunsui, Shunsui is senior captain level shinigami who later on become Captain Commander, it just speak for itself how much he is powerful. Also it was already stated that difference between captains and other officiers are enormous and that power of gotei lay in their captains. I don't see Shikai Renji, or Ichigo who fought agains Jibando keeping any better against Kyoraku.

It was confirmed in databook that Harribel is VL.

Where exactly did Hitsugaya state that the Hyogaku could make Arrancar VL level??? And yea Grimmjow was high adjuchas level, but as I said VL is simply not comparable to other hollows, it's on a whole different scale! Besides as you said Bankai Ichigo with Mask was above captain level and Grimmjow could still put up a really good fight against him, so even if Grimmjow was VL level, that would still make sense as he was above or at least at average captain level.

And yea Hitsugaya was above average captain level, it was pretty obvious really!! Hirako wasn't a captain at the time and ukitake was sick. If you ranked the captains into levels AT THE TIME I'd be:

1. Shunsui
2. Unohana (I don't really know whether to count her or not since we hadn't really seen her fight... But whatever, here she is)
3. Kenpachi
4. Hitsugaya
--- Average! ----
4. Byakuya (I know people might disagree, but afterall he lost to Ichigo who could barely beat Espada 6 while Hitsugaya beat epsada 3)
5. Soi-Fon
6. Kurotsuchi
7. Komamura

And I left out Yamamoto cause he was on his own level. Disagree?? Whatever, I'm pretty damn sure that this is how they ranked in strength whether you believe it or not.

Well Aizen didn't say that Yamamoto was stronger than himself, he said that he MIGHT be. And that was before he even got to use the full power of the Hogyaku. And whether it's with his shinigami skills or not is irrelevant here.

About Chad I was simply pointing out that Kubo made him seem really strong and also like he would be one of the main fighters throughout the series, but ever since Shunsui wiped the floor with him, he hasn't done anything that impressive and it has been clear that he's simply not as strong as the others (Renji, Rukia, Ichigo). And btw I'm pretty damn sure Renji and Ichigo could at least have put up a bit more of a fight (Though obviously they would still not stand a chance).

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Where exactly did Hitsugaya state that the Hyogaku could make Arrancar VL level??? And yea Grimmjow was high adjuchas level, but as I said VL is simply not comparable to other hollows, it's on a whole different scale! Besides as you said Bankai Ichigo with Mask was above captain level and Grimmjow could still put up a really good fight against him, so even if Grimmjow was VL level, that would still make sense as he was above or at least at average captain level.

And yea Hitsugaya was above average captain level, it was pretty obvious really!! Hirako wasn't a captain at the time and ukitake was sick. If you ranked the captains into levels AT THE TIME I'd be:

1. Shunsui
2. Unohana (I don't really know whether to count her or not since we hadn't really seen her fight... But whatever, here she is)
3. Kenpachi
4. Hitsugaya
--- Average! ----
4. Byakuya (I know people might disagree, but afterall he lost to Ichigo who could barely beat Espada 6 while Hitsugaya beat epsada 3)
5. Soi-Fon
6. Kurotsuchi
7. Komamura

And I left out Yamamoto cause he was on his own level. Disagree?? Whatever, I'm pretty damn sure that this is how they ranked in strength whether you believe it or not.

Well Aizen didn't say that Yamamoto was stronger than himself, he said that he MIGHT be. And that was before he even got to use the full power of the Hogyaku. And whether it's with his shinigami skills or not is irrelevant here.

About Chad I was simply pointing out that Kubo made him seem really strong and also like he would be one of the main fighters throughout the series, but ever since Shunsui wiped the floor with him, he hasn't done anything that impressive and it has been clear that he's simply not as strong as the others (Renji, Rukia, Ichigo). And btw I'm pretty damn sure Renji and Ichigo could at least have put up a bit more of a fight (Though obviously they would still not stand a chance).

Lol what did you put hitsugiya above Byakuya lol you have gone crazy right now he's clearly stronger than hitsugiya after zero squad meeting..an even before that he was stronger an he did not struggle with the 7 espada as much as hitsugiya struggle with halibel..that espada had nothing on Byakuya lol.an the only reason hitsugiya stood a chance in that fight is cuz her powers complemented his powers.....anyway that's not the topic thoe lol.

An hitsugiya said that VL are above any captian I believe...so halibel should have been way stronger than what she was.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Where exactly did Hitsugaya state that the Hyogaku could make Arrancar VL level???

Hitsugaya said that currently number of Vasto Lordes are around 5 and he said that if Aizen create 10 Arrancars on that level, SS will be finished. This also cover your point bellow, if there are 5 or less Vasto Lordes, than how Aizen can create Arrancar on that level?
Yylfordt said that Aizen's modification grant them greater power.

And yea Grimmjow was high adjuchas level, but as I said VL is simply not comparable to other hollows, it's on a whole different scale! Besides as you said Bankai Ichigo with Mask was above captain level and Grimmjow could still put up a really good fight against him, so even if Grimmjow was VL level, that would still make sense as he was above or at least at average captain level.

It was said that captain level shinigami should be able (but not necessery) to beat Adjuchas and it was said that VL level is captain level or stronger. There power level is not that great at all. Grimm was already near state of becoming VL + boost from Hyogaku + Hyogaku boost wasn't right after Grimm joined Aizen's crew, Grimmjow was one of his first followers and estimated some arrancars are about decade old, so Grimm also had a lot of chance to become even stronger Adjuchas, but the time when he meet with Shawlong and his group.

And yea Hitsugaya was above average captain level, it was pretty obvious really!! Hirako wasn't a captain at the time and ukitake was sick. If you ranked the captains into levels AT THE TIME I'd be:

1. Shunsui
2. Unohana (I don't really know whether to count her or not since we hadn't really seen her fight... But whatever, here she is)
3. Kenpachi
4. Hitsugaya
--- Average! ----
4. Byakuya (I know people might disagree, but afterall he lost to Ichigo who could barely beat Espada 6 while Hitsugaya beat epsada 3)
5. Soi-Fon
6. Kurotsuchi
7. Komamura

And I left out Yamamoto cause he was on his own level. Disagree?? Whatever, I'm pretty damn sure that this is how they ranked in strength whether you believe it or not.

1. Ukitake until sick don't take effect was able to perfectly fine keep up with Kyoraku and Starrk, if he is healthy i can see him being on same level as Kyoraku if no even stronger.
2. I didn't talk about who is captain and who isn't. My point was that Hirako is high tier captain level shinigami, just like Itachi and Nagato are kage level shinobis even if they don't have that title.

No offense (it's your oppinion after all), but that's not it.

3. Kyoraku can't be put in same tier as Hitsugaya and Zaraki, it's insane.
-Zaraki had to try against Nnoitra, yes in the end he beat him easily (but it was in his strongest form) on the other hand Kyoraku beat Starrk easily, but just with shikai, so do the math.
Starrk > Nnoitra (four rank bellow Starrk) and that men was beaten by Shikai Kyoraku (Kyoraku in bankai is at least 5x stronger) and Zaraki beat the guy who is alot weaker than Starrk with same diff.
-Also same can be said for Hitsugaya, he defeated Tier with full power, but Kyoraku defeat a lot stronger character with at least. 20% of his power
- Both Ichigo and Byakuya got a lot stronger in Arrancar arc and Byakuya was able to fodderize Zommari (just one level bellow Grimmjow), i see Byakuya doing same as Hitsugaya in fight against Tier, if no even better.

(far) Above captain level: Yamamoto
High level captains: Kyoraku, Healthy Ukitake
Mid level captains (something i would call average): Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Zaraki
Low level captains: Sui Feng, Mayuri, Komamura

Well Aizen didn't say that Yamamoto was stronger than himself, he said that he MIGHT be. And that was before he even got to use the full power of the Hogyaku. And whether it's with his shinigami skills or not is irrelevant here.

1. Aizen said that with alone RJ, Yamamoto could beat him, so it alone speaking for itself, Yama with alone Rj could be stronger than full power shinigami Aizen.
2. By Aizen's words Shinigami's battles are battles of reiatsu. Yama after feeling Aizen's reiatsu was quite sure that he can take him down, which also could mean that Zanpakutoless Yama could defeat full power Shinigami Aizen, and it alone speak that Yama with all his skills (hakuda, zainjutsu, shunpo) is stronger than shinigami Aizen. Shikai Yama > Shinigami (shikai) Aizen
3. Yes, it's true that it was before Aizen got to use full power of Hyogaku, but it was said only about Shikai Yama (Aizen pointed out Ryujin Jakka), so i'm pretty sure that Yama with bankai could take Hyogaku Aizen. There are still not person who can past Yama's west and it was also said that he with power of ZnT can destroy whole SS, feat that Hyogaku Aizen and Mugetsu Ichigo don't have, since they power was mountain size.
4. Yes, if Aizen is shinigami is relevant, since Yama is portrayed as Strongest shinigami and Aizen with Hyogaku wasn't just shinigami anymore, so even if Aizen surpassed Yama (which i highly doubt) it was because of Hyogaku (transcendent skills) not because of his shinigami skills.

About Chad I was simply pointing out that Kubo made him seem really strong and also like he would be one of the main fighters throughout the series, but ever since Shunsui wiped the floor with him, he hasn't done anything that impressive and it has been clear that he's simply not as strong as the others (Renji, Rukia, Ichigo). And btw I'm pretty damn sure Renji and Ichigo could at least have put up a bit more of a fight (Though obviously they would still not stand a chance).

His feats was more impresive than Renji's during Arrancar saga.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Hitsugaya said that currently number of Vasto Lordes are around 5 and he said that if Aizen create 10 Arrancars on that level, SS will be finished. This also cover your point bellow, if there is 5 or less Vasto Lordes, than how Aizen can create Arrancar on that level?
Yylfordt said that Aizen's modification grant them greater power.



It was said that captain level shinigami should be able (but not necessery) to beat Adjuchas and it was said that VL level is captain level or stronger. There power level is not that great at all. Grimm was already near state of becoming VL + boost from Hyogaku + Hyogaku boost wasn't right after Grimm joined Aizen's crew, Grimmjow was one of his first followers and estimated some arrancars are about decade old, so Grimm also had a lot of chance to become even stronger Adjuchas, but the time when he meet with Shawlong and his group.



1. Ukitake until sick don't take effect was able to perfectly fine keep up with Kyoraku and Starrk, if he is healthy i can see him being on same level as Kyoraku if no even stronger.
2. I didn't talk about who is captain and who isn't. My point was that Hirako is high tier captain level shinigami, just like Itachi and Nagato are kage level shinobis even if they don't have that title.

No offense (it's your oppinion after all), but that's not it.

3. Kyoraku can't be put in same tier as Hitsugaya and Zaraki, it's insane.
-Zaraki had to try against Nnoitra, yes in the end he beat him easily (but it was in his strongest form) on the other hand Kyoraku beat Starrk easily, but just with shikai, so do the math.
Starrk > Nnoitra (four rank bellow Starrk) and that men was beaten by Shikai Kyoraku (Kyoraku in bankai is at least 5x stronger) and Zaraki beat the guy who is alot weaker than Starrk with same diff.
-Also same can be said for Hitsugaya, he defeated Tier with full power, but Kyoraku defeat a lot stronger character with at least. 20% of his power
- Both Ichigo and Byakuya got a lot stronger in Arrancar arc and Byakuya was able to fodderize Zommari (just one level bellow Grimmjow), i see Byakuya doing same as Hitsugaya in fight against Tier, if no even better.

(far) Above captain level: Yamamoto
High level captains: Kyoraku, Healthy Ukitake
Mid level captains (something i would call average): Byakuya, Hitsugaya, Zaraki
Low level captains: Sui Feng, Mayuri, Komamura



1. Aizen said that with alone RJ, Yamamoto could beat him, so it alone speaking for itself, Yama with alone Rj could be stronger than full power shinigami Aizen.
2. By Aizen's words Shinigami's battles are battles of reiatsu. Yama after feeling Aizen's reiatsu was quite sure that he can take him down, which also could mean that Zanpakutoless Yama could defeat full power Shinigami Aizen, and it alone speak that Yama with all his skills (hakuda, zainjutsu, shunpo) is stronger than shinigami Aizen. Shikai Yama > Shinigami (shikai) Aizen
3. Yes, it's true that it was before Aizen got to use full power of Hyogaku, but it was said only about Shikai Yama (Aizen pointed out Ryujin Jakka), so i'm pretty sure that Yama with bankai could take Hyogaku Aizen. There are still not person who can past Yama's west and it was also said that he with power of ZnT can destroy whole SS, feat that Hyogaku Aizen and Mugetsu Ichigo don't have, since they power was mountain size.
4. Yes, if Aizen is shinigami is relevant, since Yama is portrayed as Strongest shinigami and Aizen with Hyogaku wasn't just shinigami anymore, so even if Aizen surpassed Yama (which i highly doubt) it was because of Hyogaku (transcendent skills) not because of his shinigami skills.



His feats was more impresive than Renji's during Arrancar saga.

@bold:zaraki just cut threw a meteor like it was cake lol yea ur right putting zaraki in kyoraku level of captain is insane cuz zaraki at the moment is clearly stronger.

Ps: kyoraku beat a stark that was basically powerless.