Tsunade is a bad Hokage???

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

-Overcame her crippling fear in order to save a boy she had just met.
-Took on the Leader of the Akatsuki whilst protecting an entire village.
-Stood up to Danzo.
-Woke up from a coma into a huge world war against Madara Uchiha. Accepts role and takes command.
-Gambled life with Mabui's teleportation technique to get to the Madara battlefield.
-Felt a tremor from miles away and heard a meteor had wiped out the entire Fourth Company. Heads over there without hesitation.
-Even as a medic leads the fight against MADARA. UCHIHA. And never loses her cool.

lol but okay, bad hokage, whatever.

 

[KingHashirama]

-Overcame her crippling fear in order to save a boy she had just met.
-Took on the Leader of the Akatsuki whilst protecting an entire village.
-Stood up to Danzo.
-Woke up from a coma into a huge world war against Madara Uchiha. Accepts role and takes command.
-Gambled life with Mabui's teleportation technique to get to the Madara battlefield.
-Felt a tremor from miles away and heard a meteor had wiped out the entire Fourth Company. Heads over there without hesitation.
-Even as a medic leads the fight against MADARA. UCHIHA. And never loses her cool.

lol but okay, bad hokage, whatever.

holy sh*T i just realized the irony in that. lollll. Even as a medic she was the one leading the fight lollll.

 

[Bad Touch Yakushi]

holy sh*T i just realized the irony in that. lollll. Even as a medic she was the one leading the fight lollll.

Also to my knowledge she's the only one that doesn't require protection. The Kages teamwork was awesome and they saved each other's asses a lot but the medic was her own tank. Her own protection.

 

[archbeta]

Re: Tsunade is a bad Hokage???...Debatable...

Here are some reasons:

Spoiler

Well there are 5 valid reasons:
The first is:
Death of loved ones and gambling caused Tsunade to ABANDON the village.
Death of Madara's brother gave Madara Hate
Truth about Itachi + Death of parents made Sasuke want to destroy Konoha

Whereas
Death of parents, everyone hating or ignoring him, treated like a monster and Naruto still believes in greater good.
Hashirama lives in a time of war, he loses family, his new 'best' friend rejects him because of the times and Hashirama still believes in greater good.

Tsunade's actions can be compared to antagonists rather than protagonists.

Spoiler

The second is:
Hashirama believed in a greater good on his own accord
Hiruzen believed in a greater good on his own accord
Minato believed in a greater good on his own accord
Naruto believes in a greater good on his own accord
Tsunade believes in a greater good as a direct result of Naruto's ideals.
They all wanted to bring peace to the world, the only difference is that Tsunade only wanted it because Naruto wanted it.

Spoiler

The third is:
Fear of blood!
We know she lost loved ones but so did almost every single char in the show. The only difference is she abandons the village and contracts a fear of blood. Really not Hokage-worthy. I mean I don't even have to substantiate, a shinobi with a fear of blood just sounds ridiculous enough already.

Note: I actually like Tsunade as a char. This is not a character bash. I'm just saying it's not Hokage-worthy. But as a char, she's still fine.

Spoiler

The fourth is:
Hokage is defined as the strongest ninja in the leaf village.
Hashirama was the strongest
Minato was the strongest
At the time she was chosen, Jiraiya > Tsunade
She was chosen because Jiraiya didn't want to and couldn't
She was the second choice.
And right now Naruto > Tsunade

Spoiler

The final reason is:
Lady Tsunade was not a fan of responsibility. She would hate doing tedious paperwork. She arbitrarily put together teams for missions and then made up lame excuses. How is that Hokage-worthy?

Note: This is not a char bash. I like Tsunade as a char. Many of her actions were not Hokage-worthy.

 

[KingHashirama]

Also to my knowledge she's the only one that doesn't require protection. The Kages teamwork was awesome and they saved each other's asses a lot but the medic was her own tank. Her own protection.

Yea i noticed this also.. Onoki and Ay were teamed up. While Mei and Gaara were the long range team. Only person who was doing things by herself while providing support zzz was Tsunade. I can't believe i out of all people over looked this. V_V Thank you bro!

 

[Black Wolf]

Archbeta,

You're quoting things that happened before Tsunade's induction as Kage, though, which have no bearing on her actual performance as Kage because she wasn't a Kage when those things happened. You are also factoring in her sub-par placement in the power spectrum, which again has nothing to do with leadership skills (i.e. being a Kage). Being weaker than others in her villafe = / = bad Kage.

 

[KingHashirama]

Archbeta,

You're quoting things that happened before Tsunade's induction as Kage, though, which have no bearing on her actual performance as Kage because she wasn't a Kage when those things happened. You are also factoring in her sub-par placement in the power spectrum, which again has nothing to do with leadership skills (i.e. being a Kage). Being weaker than others = / = bad Kage.

Thought i find it funny how in the manga is considered legendary.

 

[Joshutsu]

Yea i noticed this also.. Onoki and Ay were teamed up. While Mei and Gaara were the long range team. Only person who was doing things by herself while providing support zzz was Tsunade. I can't believe i out of all people over looked this. V_V Thank you bro!

Precisely, she's been fighting on her own essentially and covering others backs. This is a clear indication of her experience in combat in contrast to others minus onoki probably.

 

[Black Wolf]

Being considered legendary =/= strength. Shikaku Nara has taught us that legends of the past are overrated.

Kakashi is a legendary ninja in the Naruto-verse, yet Gai is not, despite the fact that Gai is Kakashi's equal and has the ability to ascend to unequalled godhood with the 8th gate, nobody in the ninja world knows who the hell Gai is, as every single time he is encountered, he is taken lightly, thought of as a joke, and underestimated.

 

[Joshutsu]

Being considered legendary =/= strength. Shikaku Nara has taught us that legends of the past are overrated.

Kakashi is a legendary ninja in the Naruto-verse, yet Gai is not, despite the fact that Gai is Kakashi's equal and has the ability to ascend to unequalled godhood with the 8th gate, nobody in the ninja world knows who the hell Gai is, as every single time he is encountered, he is taken lightly, thought of as a joke, and underestimated.

Except Shukaku experienced the legendary sannin for himself. This is not legend alot of people who have a bit of age on them have seen the power of the sannin.

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@ your second paragraph that may be true but im not sure of the point youre trying to make with it. But yes not because you are well known does not mean there can't people people who can test you or be better than you.

 

[archbeta]

Archbeta,

You're quoting things that happened before Tsunade's induction as Kage, though, which have no bearing on her actual performance as Kage because she wasn't a Kage when those things happened. You are also factoring in her sub-par placement in the power spectrum, which again has nothing to do with leadership skills (i.e. being a Kage). Being weaker than others in her villafe = / = bad Kage.

You're limiting the word 'bad' to performance, which was not underlined in OP. True, if the word 'bad' were limited to performance then I guess I would have no premise. Secondly, your problem with my second argument should taken up with Kishi. Again, if the definition of Hokage had been set differently, I suppose my premise would fall again.

 

[Black Wolf]

Joshutsu,

That doesn't say anything about him ever seeing them, just reiterating the hype we have heard about her numerous times. Furthermore, I never denied her physical strength, but her overall strength on the cumulative ninja power spectrum.

I initially stated that being weaker than several ninja in her village does not make her a bad Kage / leader, to which KingHashirama replied "she is Legendary" as if a response to my belief of her being weak.

You're limiting the word 'bad' to performance, which was not underlined in OP. True, if the word 'bad' were limited to performance then I guess I would have no premise. Secondly, your problem with my second argument should taken up with Kishi. Again, if the definition of Hokage had been set differently, I suppose my premise would fall again.

Why judge her on her priors, though? She never showed those weaknesses during her reign as Kage. The whole gambling, blood phobia fiasco was before she became Kage. She tossed those problems aside once she accepted responsibility of leadership and stopped running away from her problems.

And Kakashi openly expressed disdain at taking the Kage position because he thought he wouldn't be a good leader, even if it is painfully clear he is stronger than Tsunade. Gai is also significantly stronger than Tsunade, but he wouldn't be fit to be Kage either due to his personality. Kage isn't purely about strength, but about leadership abilities as well.

 

[archbeta]

You need to ask yourself three questions when evaluating this situation:
1) What has led to Tsunade being the Hokage she is today?

2) What parameters are we setting for the word bad?

3) What parameters are we setting for the word 'Hokage'

The reason we have to define these is because you can't compare a premise of losing against Kabuto before she became Hokage to a premise of not Sasuke an international criminal. This thread needed parameters.

 

[Joshutsu]

Joshutsu,

That doesn't say anything about him ever seeing them, just reiterating the hype we have heard about her numerous times. Furthermore, I never denied her physical strength, but her overall strength on the cumulative ninja power spectrum.

I initially stated that being weaker than several ninja in her village does not make her a bad Kage / leader, to which KingHashirama replied "she is Legendary" as if a response to my belief of her being weak.

I believe he was a part of the previous war(well almost sure) so he should know. Her overall strength is actually pretty good it's just that people don't like passive abilities.

Well I can see what he is saying in that people underestimate Tsunade and she's only fought like twice. People we probably think could beat her if they had a cannon fight would probably end differently simply because of her hype. As you said before people get underestimated and end up showing their worth.

 

[KingHashirama]

@Black Wolf. Oh but he is the one who called her the world's strongest female shinobi.. lol.

You do realize she is the best poison maker?? right?

As for Kakashi and Gai matter.. actually Base Kakashi in prowess is above Gai.. that is the thing.. then you must also realize what Kakashi has accomplished compared to Gai.. If you were to tell me to pick someone for a mission.. or who to draft first.. I'd go with Kakashi, even knowing Gai can enter GAtes.. why? Because its a safer bet.. and more reliable.

Precisely, she's been fighting on her own essentially and covering others backs. This is a clear indication of her experience in combat in contrast to others minus onoki probably.

Yes i kind of overlooked that. And of course Onoki has the more experience. But he ain't even close to his prime. Clearly shown when him and Ay had to team up against Madara.

3) What parameters are we setting for the word 'Hokage'

We ain't setting sh*t for Hokage.. the word "Hokage" is basically the life of Hashirama..... and his belief.. even he already clarified what it means to be a Hokage..

 

[mohdzarif]

You need to ask yourself three questions when evaluating this situation:
1) What has led to Tsunade being the Hokage she is today?

2) What parameters are we setting for the word bad?

3) What parameters are we setting for the word 'Hokage'

The reason we have to define these is because you can't compare a premise of losing against Kabuto before she became Hokage to a premise of not Sasuke an international criminal. This thread needed parameters.

A bad Hokage means a Hokage that plays his/her role as Hokage badly. Also I've included the mistakes of Tobirama and Hiruzen as the previous Hokages. You should have understand what I meant to be a good or bad Hokage.

 

[Black Wolf]

@Black Wolf. Oh but he is the one who called her the world's strongest female shinobi.. lol.

Which may very well be true based on the sub par showing of most females in this manga. It doesn't change the fact that throwing the term "legendary" doesn't mean anything.

As for Kakashi and Gai matter.. actually Base Kakashi in prowess is above Gai.. that is the thing.. then you must also realize what Kakashi has accomplished compared to Gai.. If you were to tell me to pick someone for a mission.. or who to draft first.. I'd go with Kakashi, even knowing Gai can enter GAtes.. why? Because its a safer bet.. and more reliable.

My goal isn't to delve into technicalities but to look at the situation at face value.

The point is legendary status has no bearing on power levels / tiers, as you have two fighters which the manga states to be equals (minus 8th gate, which makes Gai Juubi Madara level), yet one is "legendary" while the other is often considered a joke.

 

[Velencia]

i guess she's 'ok'.

 

[KingHashirama]

Which may very well be true based on the sub par showing of most females in this manga. It doesn't change the fact that throwing the term "legendary" doesn't mean anything.



My goal isn't to delve into technicalities but to look at the situation at face value.

The point is legendary status has no bearing on power levels / tiers, as you have two fighters which the manga states to be equals (minus 8th gate, which makes Gai Juubi Madara level), yet one is "legendary" while the other is often considered a joke.

showing to us =/= the character's knowledge.. They have vastly more knowledge on ninja than us..


Sorry, but "legendary" status determines someone's power. It is gained through being strong. If you ain't strong, you ain't being legendary.. in the ninja world.. sorry but that is how it is.

And i already explained Kakashi and Gai.. Kakashi is superior to Gai.. Manga doesn't state them to be equal.. no clue where you got this from. They have been rivals.. but as far as we know their little record of the 99 fights.. is based on small competitions between each other. Not actual fights. I also wanna know who called Kakashi a legendary shinobi... i'm interested in this..

Accomplishments = power..

 

[archbeta]

There is a degree of ambiguity in my argument, which is bad, so I'll clear it up.
Firstly, it is totally valid to say that we don' judge characters by their priors but at the same time the antecedent is true. Think about this: If I were to say, will Madara become a good Hokage? The answer would be no because of the nature of his character. But the natyre of his character would be a priori to him becoming Hokage?
Many would say that the nature of his char is one that is so bad that the likelihood of him changing is so extreme that we won't consider this as a possible priori because his char won't change.
But at the same time, considering the Manga and the miraculous changes in char that we have seen thus far as well as the unfalsifiability present in the human heart would lead us to believe that his char as it is now could miraculously change. His current char would then become a priori. The question asked is: Can we judge him by his priors? The answer is still no. However there is something that we can derive from his prior. The degree to which he had bought into the idea of Hokage.
In this sense, we can say that the degree in which he has bought into Hokage is a miraculous change of char that is based on the ideals of another individual.
Just by basing your ideals on another individual, the extent to which you buy into that belief is very weak.
An example of this paradime is seen in Scott Pilgrim vs The World. When he bought into the idea of love,he lost to Gideon. When he bought into the idea of self-confidence, he won.
So the priori determines the degree of belief, we can measure degrees of belief ranging from good to bad. A Hokage should have the highest degree of belief. Tsunade herself doesn't have a bad degree, but not the highest form as seen in Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Minato, Naruto and even Konohamaru.
A person can only pass off a degree as high as their is. So basically speaking, Tsunade as a char can only pass off a degree of belief to all the citizens in Konoha as far as hers goes. Which I consider 'bad.'

Basically, this is just a valid argument that shows that 'bad' can be defined in an infinite manners with regard to Hokage.