Deus ex Machina

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Deus ex Machina is a literary device where a solution or an element comes out of nowhere with poor or non-existent foreshadowing and explanation that magically changes the storyline. It was classically used in Greek plays where the Gods would show up out of nowhere at the end to solve the narrator's problems. Literally translated, it means "God from the Machine" because the Gods would be lifted onto the stage with a machine pulley.

I think that the Sage of Six paths is a textbook Deus ex Machina, and i have no idea why anybody likes this plot twist.

 

[TheSageOfNinetails]

Nobody was questioning its meaning in your last thread.

You didnt provide any reasoning and/or arguements for your case. Thats what people didnt get.

 

[To Whatever]

Deus ex Machina is a literary device where a solution or an element comes out of nowhere with poor or non-existent foreshadowing and explanation that magically changes the storyline. It was classically used in Greek plays where the Gods would show up out of nowhere at the end to solve the narrator's problems. Literally translated, it means "God from the Machine" because the Gods would be lifted onto the stage with a machine pulley.

I think that the Sage of Six paths is a textbook Deus ex Machina, and i have no idea why anybody likes this plot twist.

Isn't there a thread about this already?

 

[iFlowMotion]

Thought it was just a game TBH

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Isn't there a thread about this already?

yea, but it wasn't defined in the OP so people would be responding to a botched argument.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Thought it was just a game TBH

Well it is, but the game is named after the millennia old plot device.

 

[iFlowMotion]

Well it is, but the game is named after the millennia old plot device.

Oh well thanks I learned something new today =D

 

[archbeta]

Well, J.R.R Tolkien also coins the term eucatastrophe where sudden things happen to the main character to avoid their impending doom. I think that it makes up an important part of the fiction world. By using these terms in fiction, we buy in to the idea that in any circumstance, hope and goodness will prevail which is the theme of much fiction. So I guess for the sake of the theme, using certain devices is entirely okay.

 

[Multiply]

The sage is not an example if this. It was well established that at the very least, Naruto would meet him eventually. Do I even have to say why? Meeting and learning the names of all the bijuu and jinchuriki? Kurama flat out telling him the sage predicted a time where all of the bijuu would be together again. The several flashbacks of Naruo following in the steps of the sage. This is one of the most anticipated portions of the manga and you call it Deus ex Machina, lol.

A real example would be if the sages brother came next chapter and gave naruto and sasuke his chakra without reason or previous mention.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Nobody was questioning its meaning in your last thread.

You didnt provide any reasoning and/or arguements for your case. Thats what people didnt get.

This isn't the kind of argument that needs proof. My argument's nature means that there is a lack of proof becuase it claims not that something exists but that something doesn't. Basic logic. My point is that there are no elements in the manga thus far that properly lead up to this moment, so it's bad writing. Short of showing you every chapter and walking you through it like a child, there is no way to prove it. But all you have to do is soundly show how this element was properly led up to, and my arguemnt will be proven wrong.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

The sage is not an example if this. It was well established that at the very least, Naruto would meet him eventually. Do I even have to say why? Meeting and learning the names of all the bijuu and jinchuriki? Kurama flat out telling him the sage predicted a time where all of the bijuu would be together again. The several flashbacks of Naruo following in the steps of the sage. This is one of the most anticipated portions of the manga and you call it Deus ex Machina, lol.

A real example would be if the sages brother came next chapter and gave naruto and sasuke his chakra without reason or previous mention.

None of this led up to a meeting with him though. It was established that he was dead. Now, if Kabuto somehow got his DNA and brought him back from the dead, there wouldn't be a problem with him being a Deus ex Machina because he came through means already established. But since he somehow came of his own volition in a way that had not been explained and for the express purpose of powering up Naruto and Sasuke, he is a God from the Machine.

 

[-Punk-]

Nothing will beat Izanami .

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Nothing will beat Izanami .

I'd say this has it beat. Izanami required the sacrifice of one of Tobi's eyes, and also only saved one character's life. This deus ex machina pretty much saved the whole of the shinobi world.

 

[Multiply]

None of this led up to a meeting with him though. It was established that he was dead. Now, if Kabuto somehow got his DNA and brought him back from the dead, there wouldn't be a problem with him being a Deus ex Machina because he came through means already established. But since he somehow came of his own volition in a way that had not been explained and for the express purpose of powering up Naruto and Sasuke, he is a God from the Machine.

This meeting was foreshadowed since the kage summit. Maybe even before. That is the first time we learn that Naruto and Sasuke are destined to fight, not because of their relationship, but because of who they represent. Then to say the sage did not go to Naruto. The sage himself expressed that he was summoned by Naruto. Likely through the combination of the bijuu and ashura's chakra. Sasuke likely summoned the sage because he is the reincarnation of Indra; which we learn at the time of the kage summit(not that he had the chakra, but that he is the reincarnation of the eldest son). Every aspect of the sage appearing before Naruto and Sasuke was foreshadowed. Just because Kishi didn't reserve a panel to say, "the sage's chakra has appeared because of this and that" doesn't mean it is Deus ex Machina.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Deus ex Machina is a literary device where a solution or an element comes out of nowhere with poor or non-existent foreshadowing and explanation that magically changes the storyline. It was classically used in Greek plays where the Gods would show up out of nowhere at the end to solve the narrator's problems. Literally translated, it means "God from the Machine" because the Gods would be lifted onto the stage with a machine pulley.

Whether is be strongly or poorly foreshadowed, at the end of the day that is subjective and it is still foreshadowed.

I think that the Sage of Six paths is a textbook Deus ex Machina, and i have no idea why anybody likes this plot twist.

It's fine to think that. However, that too is subjective.

People would like it for the same reason you described its use. A common, classical, inspirational and accepted theme of literature. If you have a problem with twists you can't see coming or should I say don't like coming, perhaps you should read none-fiction instead.

They like it because it was foreshadowed. Furthermore, several predicted it while others enjoy twists they can't see coming unlike yourself. Hagoromo was mentioned multiple times throughout the second half of the manga and regarded as the god and creator of all jutsu and shinobi. Several sought his power and knowledge while others actually obtained it. God meaning he was omnipotent. Further foreshadowing of this was the fact that he could manipulate reality and create life and the fact that he was the sire of the Uchiha and Senju, the ancestors and clans of the two lead characters.

 

[Nebula]

A third thread, that's cool.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

Strongly or poorly foreshadowed, it still is.



It's fine to think that. However, it is subjective.

People would like it for the same reason you described its use. A common, classical, inspirational and accepted theme of literature. If you have a problem with twists you can't see coming or should I say don't like coming, perhaps you should read none-fiction instead.

They like it because it was foreshadowed. Furthermore, several predicted it while other enjoy twists they can't see coming unlike yourself. Hagoromo was mentioned multiple times throughout the second half of the manga and regarded as the god and creator of all jutsu and shinobi. Several sought his power and knowledge while others actually obtained it. God meaning he was omnipotent. Further foreshadowing of this was the fact that he could manipulate reality and create life and the fact that he was the sire of the Uchiha and Senju, the ancestors and clans of the two lead characters.

All opinions about fiction are subjective. That doesn't mean that literary critique doesn't have it's place. And Deus Ex Machina is a bad plot device, and has been considered so for hundreds of years in literature. Most stories don't employ it because it's cheap. It removes tension, which is the most important factor in creating a compelling story.

There is a difference between a good and bad twist. A good twist is something that the reader didn't see coming, but still makes sense in the confines of the story. This is especially true in the climax. It is writing 101 that you don't intorduce new ideas in the climax of a story. it's bad form because it removes tension. This character litterally was introduced to give a bullshit explanation for Sasuke and Naruto to get new powers to beat Madara with. They didn't earn these abilities (Naruto through hard work, Sasuke through suffering) and there is no precedant for them. They are simply brought in last minute to write Kishi out of a hole. It's bad writing, and it's a **** you to the readers.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

This meeting was foreshadowed since the kage summit. Maybe even before. That is the first time we learn that Naruto and Sasuke are destined to fight, not because of their relationship, but because of who they represent. Then to say the sage did not go to Naruto. The sage himself expressed that he was summoned by Naruto. Likely through the combination of the bijuu and ashura's chakra. Sasuke likely summoned the sage because he is the reincarnation of Indra; which we learn at the time of the kage summit(not that he had the chakra, but that he is the reincarnation of the eldest son). Every aspect of the sage appearing before Naruto and Sasuke was foreshadowed. Just because Kishi didn't reserve a panel to say, "the sage's chakra has appeared because of this and that" doesn't mean it is Deus ex Machina.

That's weak. Okay, so they're "destined" to fight. As rivals in a shounen manga, this was inevitable anyway. Whether Naruto summoned him or he pooffed there is really irrelevant to the general deus ex machina of the situation. How did naruto summon him? What indicated before that Naruto has the ability to summon the ancestor of shinobi to save him when he's about to die? Even if a "reason" is given, there was no foreshadowing for it so it's bad writing. I'm not saying that it had to be expresely stated that Naruto can summon the Sage, but the elements that led to it should have been introduced so that this didn't come out of left field. Good twists make use of old elements in a new light. That's writing 101.

 

[Infinite Yaoi Emperor]

A third thread, that's cool.

Well one of them was used to clarify the other, and the third is a separate conversation.

 

[Multiply]

That's weak. Okay, so they're "destined" to fight. As rivals in a shounen manga, this was inevitable anyway. Whether Naruto summoned him or he pooffed there is really irrelevant to the general deus ex machina of the situation. How did naruto summon him? What indicated before that Naruto has the ability to summon the ancestor of shinobi to save him when he's about to die? Even if a "reason" is given, there was no foreshadowing for it so it's bad writing. I'm not saying that it had to be expresely stated that Naruto can summon the Sage, but the elements that led to it should have been introduced so that this didn't come out of left field. Good twists make use of old elements in a new light. That's writing 101.

Kishi impressed upon us several times that Naruto had gathered the chakra of the 9 bijuu inside him. Summoning the sage was involuntary, just as was meeting minato and kushina. It's not that naruto had the ability to summon him, it's that Kishi has shown us chakra signatures being seen in between life and death. The sage is merely the third one Naruto has seen. This did not come out of left field because when naruto lost the chakra of Kurama, it was instantly confirmed he would meet the sage. Whether or not the sage would save him in real time or in between this life or death limbo, became the question.