[Dimitri Rascalov]Kakashi Hatake Vs Kisame Hoshigaki[UchihaNagashi] Debate

Bronze · Apr 8, 2014

DemonicAvenger said:
He's probably talking about Pt.1 Kakashi being anxious about facing him.

P1 Kakashi is irrelevant. Going by Kakashi's improvements, he beats Orochimaru.

DemonicAvenger · Apr 8, 2014

Dimitri Rascalov said:
P1 Kakashi is irrelevant. Going by Kakashi's improvements, he beats Orochimaru.

I agree on the first part. (Won't say anything on the second since Im a judge now).

Tarinth · Apr 8, 2014

Someone should thank me for starting this entire debate. XD
Jk jk.....(psst some rep would be good)....jk lol.
But anyways, interesting arguments you guys have.

UchihaNagashi · Apr 9, 2014

1) Offensive; Suiton

With that being said, Kakashi does not possess Chakra levels even near Kisame's. Arguing against this fact is absurd act, given the fact that Kakashi has been portrayed as a ninja with one of the least Chakra levels through the manga while Kisame possesses that of equal to Bijū.

Firstly, Kisame would not start a fight with such absurd style. Given the fact he knows that he has Suiton from previous battle experience, he would not donate water to the enemy. What he instead can do, is summon sharks after using this water. Since the water is fully made of sharks, trying to take advantage of the situation and use Suiton wouldn't work. Even if he could, any kind of attack would be countered with the same jutsu. There's no escaping from this situation.

A much more powerful version of the Water Release: Five Feeding Sharks, the user creates one thousand sharks out of water that enter into a wall formation and rain down to attack the opponent.

A Doryūheki would not be able to block this. Maybe from front, however seeing the height of this jutsu (compare Gai to that jutsu), it would not be able to block the sharks coming from above. The sharks would literally rain down and feast on him. The only option would be in this, to create quickly a Kage Bunshin and using Raiden. Note the fact that Kakashi immediately got exhausted from this [

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]. After using Raiden, Kisame can attack again with a Bakusui Shōha, taking complete control over the terrain. Kakashi would be under water, while he would be vulnerable to Goshokuzame. He would not be able to lift a finger after this technique is executed;

The sharks circle the target with high speed, creating a raging stream that takes away their prey's freedom of movement and their sharp teeth tear into the enemy with each consecutive attack. In the anime, these sharks can regenerate from surrounding water, making them difficult to destroy.

II) Offensive (Passive); Samehada

This is the second part that leads to Kakashi's ultimate downfall; the Samehada. The current known weakness of Samehada is Katon. It is not it's actual weakness, but the Chakra type it hates the most [

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]. Kakashi not having this technique is very vital stop, since he has no other means to combat Kisame's sword. It has shown to be able to absorb the technique even before it creates physical contact [

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]. This means all techniques including Raiton would not harm him as long as he has this sword in his possession. If the sword is thrown away from him, all Kisame can do is open his hand and it levitates back [

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]. It also can regenerate fatal wounds Kakashi creates, making him virtually invincible foe [

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].

Bronze · Apr 9, 2014

I) Counter; Samehada

You may have misinterpreted the purpose of Samehada; it is not a partner, but a tool. Disarming Kisame from his sword makes no difference - nearly all the techniques he has done so far can be executed even without Samehada.

Can absorb Chakra through skin contact from any object he grasps on, as long as it has Chakra channeled through it [1].
Can perform his largest jutsu's, which require large amounts of water and also has Chakra absorption advantage.
Has strength not only rival, but exceed that of Gai (stronger physically than Kakashi) [3]. Note that this was only merely less than even a third of his power. Real Kisame is about more than 3x stronger [4].

Not to mention, this is only a small time delay. If Kakashi attempts to steal it, Samehada rejects Kakashi firstly due to less Chakra (so it would not betray him), and second of all due to not being it's master [5]. Kisame can easily use his telekinesis or symbiosis abilities to summon it forth (by levitating) [6].

I believe you're discarding the many advantages Kisame gains from Samehada, such as:

1). Healing powers [

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]
2). Their fusion ability, thus Kisame gains more speed and stamina and the ability to breathe under water.

To say without Samehada, Kisame's strength wont get any weaker is contradicting the fact Kisame always has Samehada along him.

@Bold: A lot of people misinterpret the bold a lot. So, i want to clear that up.

Chakra is simply physical and spiritual energy, used in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and Genjutsu. Other Shinobi category such as, physical strength, speed, hand seals, and intelligence are all gained naturally and not from chakra. So, the point i am making is Kisame simply had less chakra, thus he can only use less techniques. This however, never effected his physical strength, speed, intelligence, and hand seals. So, 30% Kisame's physical strength is still the same as 100% Kisame, as this is natural ability and not something super-natural.

Now, regarding the last sentence of Samehada and Kisame's mind communication, it may work for the 1st time, but the second time, Kakashi wont let it happen and simply finishes off Samehada via Raikiri. Samehada had actually shown vital organs as these panels show:

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Once Samehada is struck by Raikiri, its dead.

II) Counter; Suiton

Bare to keep up with me as I'm telling this. By calculations, Kisame has more than 300 times larger Chakra reserves than Kakashi. Yes, this is true. Neji stated clearly after facing him the first time - Kisame has that level of Chakra like Pseudo-Tail Naruto. Base Naruto has been stated to have 4 times more than Kakashi Chakra. After gaining a bit of Kurama's Chakra, it is hundredfold (100 times) larger than Kakashi's. While Kisame was not even in his full strength at that time (stated to be 30%), he would naturally be 3x stronger than at that time when he met Team Gai. By simple calculation, he has 300 times more Chakra than Early Shippuden Kakashi. Even if Kakashi had 5 or 6 times more Chakra than before, such pathetic attempt would not even hinder Kisame's level - telling how monstrous he is in terms of Chakra. Therefore, there would be no point in mimicking Kisame's Suiton techniques due to;

a) Not having same Chakra level. Kakashi has no way to combat his level of Chakra.
b) He would tire himself out, leaving himself an easy target for Kakashi.
c) Not be able to do as big scale, therefore not even blocking his attack but wasting his Chakra as well. His attack would be flushed away, while Kisame prepares a new one.

You're rather underestimating Kakashi's chakra levels and how much he has improved. I will list out why Kakashi wont have to worry about his chakra supply.

P1:
-Kakashi's chakra levels were enough to equal Naruto's use of Taju Kage Bunshin [

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]

Since the match-up is based on war arc Kakashi, lets look at his feats of chakra:

Fought 7 sword men of the mist for a full day
Fought 6 Jinchuuriki and Obito for half a day
Used Kamui 5 times before Kurama's chakra

This is not facotring how many jutsu Kakashi used and the chakra supply Sharingan drains away from him, especially for non-Uchiha.

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So, Kakashi will not have any trouble of keeping up with Kisame, when he fought for 2 entire days non-stop as well fighting an Uchiha + Senju, Uchiha Obito.

Moving on, the other part you're making is Kisame's techniques being overpowered in his full health state. Honestly, there isn't that much difference between them, apart from giant shark. May i also remind you, that Kakashi managed to block combination of Futon&Katon as well as copy Kisame's Suiton dragon.

So, the premise of Kisame's Suiton techniques overpowering Kakashi's is baseless.

III) Counter; Fusion

First of all, that's not what he would do. Firstly, he doesn't have a Chidori Nagashi. That means the electricity would come out of his hands and harm also him. Also, Kisame is a sensor. He can sense the build-up of Chakra before the technique is executed. He would leave Kakashi there paralyzed and get him after the electricity has done it's job. Third of all, Kisame has previously absorbed electricity from Kirābī. Such thing is not only doubtable, but can be easily countered.

I advice to reread my premise once more, as well as reread Killer Bee vs Kisame. Bee did use Raiton in water, thus your point is moot. And my premise had nothing to do with using Raiton alone.

My premise is once Kisame displays his fusion with Samehada under source of water, Kakashi can use Raiton there to force Kisame to absorb the chakra, thus his body goes numb and paralyzed. Also, you're rather believing Kakashi is an idiot to electric himself, but not rather electric Kisame through his Raiton Bunshin or normal Bunshin. I will upgrade my premise at this matter...

Kakashi always starts off using Bunshin. This shouldn't be discussed, when he analyzes his opponent's abilities. So, using Raiton bunshin once Kisame fuses with Samehada under source of water, is what makes his tactic work. This has been seen in the manga, [

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]. But rather, my premise is Kisame absorbing Raiton from clone Kakashi under source of water. Its already proven real Bunshin do not get absorbed, so in this matter, once Raiton clone Kakashi uses Raiton under the water bubble where Kisame will defiantly absorb it, his body will go numb and paralyzed [

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], in the same fashion as Asura path and Madara [

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], Kisame will be vulnerable for Raiton Kunai:

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For the contrary note, the Kunai fused with Raiton is powerful enough to pierce through KCM Naruto's cloak and Kisame's head. That is how my premise will go down.

Bronze · Apr 9, 2014

1) Offensive; Suiton

With that being said, Kakashi does not possess Chakra levels even near Kisame's. Arguing against this fact is absurd act, given the fact that Kakashi has been portrayed as a ninja with one of the least Chakra levels through the manga while Kisame possesses that of equal to Bijū.

Firstly, Kisame would not start a fight with such absurd style. Given the fact he knows that he has Suiton from previous battle experience, he would not donate water to the enemy. What he instead can do, is summon sharks after using this water. Since the water is fully made of sharks, trying to take advantage of the situation and use Suiton wouldn't work. Even if he could, any kind of attack would be countered with the same jutsu. There's no escaping from this situation.

A much more powerful version of the Water Release: Five Feeding Sharks, the user creates one thousand sharks out of water that enter into a wall formation and rain down to attack the opponent.

A Doryūheki would not be able to block this. Maybe from front, however seeing the height of this jutsu (compare Gai to that jutsu), it would not be able to block the sharks coming from above. The sharks would literally rain down and feast on him. The only option would be in this, to create quickly a Kage Bunshin and using Raiden. Note the fact that Kakashi immediately got exhausted from this [1]. After using Raiden, Kisame can attack again with a Bakusui Shōha, taking complete control over the terrain. Kakashi would be under water, while he would be vulnerable to Goshokuzame. He would not be able to lift a finger after this technique is executed;

Once again, you're arguing over Kakashi's chakra levels being non-factor, but i have disproved it above. The fact he copied fully healthy Kisame's Suiton Dragon and stalemated it disproves your chakra argument. Now, to counter the multiple Shark technique, Kakashi has ways to block and and attack at the same time.

1). Method 1, Doton wall [

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]. Although it looks small to protect against that many number of Sharks, but this is not trouble for someone who created hundreds of Kagi Bunshin [

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], in which it would looks similar to this [

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].

2). Method 2, Raiton Beast [

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]. It doesn't necessarily in that form, as its mere chakra which can be manipulated into any shape Kakashi wishes. So, Kakashi can manipulated in forms of sharks, dragon or any thing. Since it has the ability to also run at fast speed, it will pierce through all of the sharks in 1 go.

3). Method 3, Raiton chain [

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]. Since it involves range, and the fact it equaled to Gai's Asako Jaku which defeated the Sharks, it will be enough to pierce them through.

Kakashi can resort to those 3 mentioned methods, and there is more to be discussed, but that is a proficient counter.

II) Offensive (Passive); Samehada

This is the second part that leads to Kakashi's ultimate downfall; the Samehada. The current known weakness of Samehada is Katon. It is not it's actual weakness, but the Chakra type it hates the most [2]. Kakashi not having this technique is very vital stop, since he has no other means to combat Kisame's sword. It has shown to be able to absorb the technique even before it creates physical contact [3]. This means all techniques including Raiton would not harm him as long as he has this sword in his possession. If the sword is thrown away from him, all Kisame can do is open his hand and it levitates back [4]. It also can regenerate fatal wounds Kakashi creates, making him virtually invincible foe [5].

I believe i have already addressed how Samehada can be dealt with above.

Nattana · Apr 9, 2014

Dimitri Rascalov said:
P1 Kakashi is irrelevant. Going by Kakashi's improvements, he beats Orochimaru.

Kakashi's what? I wanna hear about his improvements that would help him beat current Orochimaru. Moreover, back then Orochimaru was also P1.

Princessu Kaaantchan · Apr 9, 2014

Once Samehada is struck by Raikiri, its dead.

Just thought I'd pull out the quote to have a lol.

Bronze · Apr 9, 2014

Kaaant said:
Just thought I'd pull out the quote to have a lol.

If you're gonna disturb the debate, i am going to have a mod deal with you. Its protected.

Lytes · Apr 9, 2014

Kakashi has low chakra reserves, Kisame will wait him out, but if kakashi is given unlimited chakra ,he'll completely annihilate Kisame

Xāvî1 · Apr 10, 2014

Dimitri Rascalov said:
If you're gonna disturb the debate, i am going to have a mod deal with you. Its protected.

man aren't you serious..

OT: Current kakashi solos orochimaru..cos i don't see oro countering kamui

Princessu Kaaantchan · Apr 10, 2014

Dimitri Rascalov said:
If you're gonna disturb the debate, i am going to have a mod deal with you. Its protected.

I'll fight whoever you throw at me !!

UchihaNagashi · Apr 10, 2014

I) Counter; Samehada

That's a strategy that will fail with no doubt. Firstly, you made a mistake where you actually targeted the Samehada only and left Kisame out in the open. Kisame can easily create a Bunshin that uses Suiryūdan, while he himself uses Dai Bakusui Shōha, followed with Suirō Sameodori after this. Samehada, that is a sensor can detect when it is attacked with Chakra and can absorb the attack before it makes contact [

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-

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]. Kisame proceeds to only use his telekinesis abilities to summon it forth and attack him without a moment of hesitation in the dome. This would result in checkmate, in Kisame's favor.

Note that I also took in the factor of Raiden.

II) Counter; Stamina & Suiton

That's not the time when Kakashi's statement took it's place. It was in early Shippuden, where Kakashi stated that Naruto has twice the larger reserves in terms of Chakra than himself (I know I said four, my mistake, the calculation though stays same) [

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]. Your scan is about 5 chapters old. Naruto also has massively improved in terms of Chakra and stamina. Comparing an adults growth to a child's is ludicrous, especially when in biology the time when human develops his physical appearance the most is at puberty.

By the end of puberty, adult men have heavier bones and nearly twice as much skeletal muscle. Some of the bone growth (e.g. shoulder width and jaw) is disproportionately greater, resulting in noticeably different male and female skeletal shapes. The average adult male has about 150% of the lean body mass of an average female, and about 50% of the body fat.

The muscles develop mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate.

Naruto's development physically has been a lot greater than Kakashi's, which leads to more Chakra (as you stated yourself). At that time, no doubt did Kakashi have larger reserves than Naruto, but now in Shippuden it is a completely different story.

III) Counter; Suiton

It doesn't matter if Suiryūdan is countered. Note that Kakashi has five Suiton jutsu's at his disposal; Suiryūdan, Daibakufu, Suijinheki, Suiton Bunshin and Suikōdan. None of these can be compared to the big bad wolf called Daikōdan. This completely dwarfs all other jutsu's, not only making them insignificant but literally eats them for breakfast. Using this before dome would be overkill.

You may have misinterpreted the periodic table of elements in Naruto wrong. Suiton is not inferior to Raiton, definitely not. Using Raiton to disable the technique is not going to work, it only charges the water and the attack keeps on going. Raijū would be effective if the water returned to the opposition, however using Raiton in that situation just makes it worse. The attack is going on forward to Kakashi, while if he charges makes it paralyzing water prison.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Situation

Kakashi has means to counter the sharks, however that leaves him open for a new wave of water and therefore he is trapped in dome.

Bronze · Apr 10, 2014

Debate ends tomorrow. I will make a counter, and it will end with UchihaNagashi's counter.

Bronze · Apr 11, 2014

My Last Counter

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That's a strategy that will fail with no doubt. Firstly, you made a mistake where you actually targeted the Samehada only and left Kisame out in the open. Kisame can easily create a Bunshin that uses Suiryūdan, while he himself uses Dai Bakusui Shōha, followed with Suirō Sameodori after this. Samehada, that is a sensor can detect when it is attacked with Chakra and can absorb the attack before it makes contact [1-2]. Kisame proceeds to only use his telekinesis abilities to summon it forth and attack him without a moment of hesitation in the dome. This would result in checkmate, in Kisame's favor.

You must not have read my counter towards Samehada properly. The point is not for Kakashi to take away Samehada from Kisame through speed and power. He can accomplish this through opening one of the 8 gates which he opened in canon.

Rock Lee in base kicked Samehada away from Kisame [

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]. Kisame himself kicked Samehada away easily [

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]. Kakashi can accomplish this without any difficulty.

Kakashi's Taijutsu has been noted to be above that of Rock Lee's [>

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]. Furthermore, he can booste his strength and speed 10x by opening 1 of the 8th gates [

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]. By opening 1 gate, he can is many times faster and physical stronger. That being said, he kicks Samehada away and kills it via Raikiri.

My premise for Samehada is kicking it away from Kisame. In fact, Kisame himself noted Taijutsu is his weak point. Kakashi in base is as fast 6th gate Gai, and he can even be faster when opening 1 gate. Kisame couldn't keep up with Gai in terms of speed, therefore, he wont keep up with Kakashi.

Now, regarding your Suiton Bunshin counters, Kakashi can always create Suiton Bunshin as well to deal with Kisame's version. This is barely any factor.

That's not the time when Kakashi's statement took it's place. It was in early Shippuden, where Kakashi stated that Naruto has twice the larger reserves in terms of Chakra than himself (I know I said four, my mistake, the calculation though stays same) [3]. Your scan is about 5 chapters old. Naruto also has massively improved in terms of Chakra and stamina. Comparing an adults growth to a child's is ludicrous, especially when in biology the time when human develops his physical appearance the most is at puberty.

By the end of puberty, adult men have heavier bones and nearly twice as much skeletal muscle. Some of the bone growth (e.g. shoulder width and jaw) is disproportionately greater, resulting in noticeably different male and female skeletal shapes. The average adult male has about 150% of the lean body mass of an average female, and about 50% of the body fat.

The muscles develop mainly during the later stages of puberty, and muscle growth can continue even after boys are biologically adult. The peak of the so-called "strength spurt", the rate of muscle growth, is attained about one year after a male experiences his peak growth rate.
Naruto's development physically has been a lot greater than Kakashi's, which leads to more Chakra (as you stated yourself). At that time, no doubt did Kakashi have larger reserves than Naruto, but now in Shippuden it is a completely different story.

I never made a claim that Kakashi had larger reserves than Naruto. I was simply countering your argument that Kakashi will not tire against Kisame when clashing massive scale jutsu. I supported it with Kakashi's chakra feats.

2 days in non-stopping war
Created 100 Shadow clone in P1
Used Kamui 5 times

Further, i posted this image to make it simple how much Kakashi has improved in terms of chakra reserves:

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Your original point is how Kakashi's chakra reserves wont scale up to Kisame's reserves, but Kakashi can keep up with him with his improvements.

It doesn't matter if Suiryūdan is countered. Note that Kakashi has five Suiton jutsu's at his disposal; Suiryūdan, Daibakufu, Suijinheki, Suiton Bunshin and Suikōdan. None of these can be compared to the big bad wolf called Daikōdan. This completely dwarfs all other jutsu's, not only making them insignificant but literally eats them for breakfast. Using this before dome would be overkill.

You may have misinterpreted the periodic table of elements in Naruto wrong. Suiton is not inferior to Raiton, definitely not. Using Raiton to disable the technique is not going to work, it only charges the water and the attack keeps on going. Raijū would be effective if the water returned to the opposition, however using Raiton in that situation just makes it worse. The attack is going on forward to Kakashi, while if he charges makes it paralyzing water prison.

You have made a big mistake when saying Kisame using Daikōdan before he uses the Dome. Not only that, you quite made it easy for me to counter. Since Daikōdan is Suiton that only consumes chakra, Kakashi can merge underground via Doton hidden underground. How this jutsu counters Daikōdan:

1). Its going underground, meaning there isn't any source of chakra for Daikōdan to absorb.
2). Doton is an elemental advantage over Suiton.

With that being said, Kakashi counters Daikōdan quite easily.

I think you're misunderstanding science here. Raiton does have advantage over Suiton. Let me copy a text and highlight my meaning:

First of all, lightning certainly does hit water. There is a wealth of photographic evidence that shows this.

We hypothesize that lightning hitting water spreads out mostly along the surface of the water and the more electrically conductive the water is, e.g. salt water, the more it stays near the surface. How far it spreads out along water and remains a danger is even more uncertain. Lightning striking ground can still be dangerous over 100 feet from where it struck. Some believe lightning will go even further in water, because it's a conductor. But lightning in ground often spreads out in 'ground streamers', quasi-radial tendrils of electricity, which allows it to go farther than if it was dissipating uniforming. Some believe lightning is less likely to form these streamers in water, dissipating more uniformly. So the total area affected may be larger than on land, because water is a better conductor, but the distance it remains dangerous may be less, since it may not form ground (sic) streamers. However, I'm extremely confident that "6 feet to the post" is insanely inadequate for safety. At that distance, you're in danger of a lightning 'side flash' from the post through the air to you, even before it finds the water. General lightning safety guidance uses 6 miles as a reasonable compromise between safety and lifestyle impact.

Based on the text, the salts inside the water is good conductor with lightning, and it makes it travel even more. This is real life fact, but also, manga fact. We have seen Suigetsu, a water human stating and showing multiple times to be affected by lightning when struck his water body.

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Its common sense. This is even proven with Madara's case when he tried to absorb Raiton and Suiton mixture, and he had been paralyzed instead:

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And this is happened with Asura path as well:

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My premise in this case, is Kakashi using a Raiton Bunshin to battle Kisame inside a source of water. Kakashi will make use of salts inside water to conduct with his Raiton Bunshin, and the moment Kisame absorbs it Raiton, he will be paralyzed, just like Suiegetsu, Madara, and Asura path. Please read my premise properly. Lightning has an advantage over water. Its a fact.

With Kisame paralyzed, he is opened for kunai to pierce him, thus leads to his lost and death.

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Forbidden Technique · Apr 11, 2014

By far the worst debate I have ever unfortunately read... by both parties. :\

Bronze · Apr 11, 2014

Forbidden Technique said:
By far the worst debate I have ever unfortunately read... by both parties. :\

Anyone by looking at our posts will assume its a great debate. If you're going to come in here with a post like this, keep it for yourself fodder.

Forbidden Technique · Apr 12, 2014

Kaaant said:
Just thought I'd pull out the quote to have a lol.

Could of just quoted the entire post then, Lol.

Latios · Apr 12, 2014

Forbidden Technique said:
By far the worst debate I have ever unfortunately read... by both parties. :\

It's a pretty good debate :l

Bronze · Apr 13, 2014

This debate is ready to be judged.

[Dimitri Rascalov]Kakashi Hatake Vs Kisame Hoshigaki[UchihaNagashi] Debate

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