DSM Kabuto VS. Healthy Nagato

Bogard

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No, Bogard, false on several occasions. Hakugeki definitely lasts more than just a few seconds; Kabuto had the time to hold an inner monologue with himself and run towards Sasuke, until he was within his range. In this time, Kabuto could do several movements. Apart from that, Hakugeki doesn't only blind, but blocks your hearing and numbs your body, resulting in Sasuke's inability to maintain Susanoo. You only guess how Nagato could act while under the affect of Hakugeki; but he could also go on his knees, not able to protect himself against any high calibre attack. You say, Nagato is a sensor, while Kabuto explicitly said that Muki Tensei is something which control isn't even based on Chakra, so he in no way could sense that. As well as he couldn't properly sense bones shooting out of the ground. A sensor like Nagato could locate the position of Kabuto, but couldn't precisely sense such maneuvers and react effectively.

So you say, Nagato could use a powerful Shinra Tensei on the scale of a forest to blow away Muki Tensei and possibly even destroy the cave, but that will only result in Kabuto's victory, as he by himself won't receive damage which he couldn't render useless with his abilities, while the interval will completely restrict Tendo for a longer period, making it even easier for Kabuto to overwhelm Nagato with attacks like Muki Tensei or Sawarabi no Mai, as there will be no defense anymore.
Discussion is always discounted with time in this manga. Kakashi had time to complete a long sentence, then use kamui to warp a kunai travelling at lightning speed and situated in a restrained location between Naruto and Obito [ ]

Hakugeki definitely last few seconds only. It started here [ ] and Kabuto wasn't far away from them, at a distance Sasuke's arrow closed in 2panels [ ], so the time Kabuto took to try and capture Sasuke should definitely not be that long [ ] [ ] [ ], considering Kabuto had no reason to waste time in accomplishing his goal

I know it blocks the sense of hearing as well, but like i've said it would play no role with Nagato's sensing ability. I'm not saying he would sense Hakugeki. I'm saying he would sense Kabuto's location. He will always know his position and act accordingly [ ]. There is no reason Nagato couldn't if Ino could. It doesn't totally numb the body either, considering the fact Sasuke and Itachi were capable to protect their sense of hearing. Nagato can use the time to avoid Kabuto's attack/protect himself with a shield(either shinra tensei or summoning shield)

Nagato can protect himself with a summoning shield while destroying the cave. He isn't forced to destroy the entire cave either. Blowing up the incoming muki tensei would be the only priority. He may even decide to blow up only a side of the cave in order to have more rooms in his attacks. The Sawarabi no Mai is weaker than the muki tensei in everything and only comes from one side. Itachi managed to stop its course after cuting the front, so against a frontal shinra tensei, it would have the same result
 

Joker

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[ - ]

Absorbing chakra based liquids is not issue for the Preta Path.

Absorbing Kabuto himself would mean he's absorbing Senjutsu, and we all know how that turns out.
 

Latios

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Nagato makes Kabuto his new pet snake and names it Manda III.

OT: Nagato whips out his Purple Lightsaber (Chakra Rod) and uses the Force (Basho Ten'in and Shinra Tensei) to kill Kabuto.
 
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TheAncientCenturion

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Absorbing Kabuto himself would mean he's absorbing Senjutsu, and we all know how that turns out.

Yep. Absorbing senjutsu chakra has always been an issue for Nagato and the Preta Path. . . Sorta like how all attacks in sage mode contains Senjutsu chakra[ - ]. And Pein has had issues absorbing any of that. . . .

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Nagato will only be turned to stone once the senjutsu chaka out balances his normal chakra. Like what happened with the Preta Path, despite absorbing so many Senjutsu attacks. And even the remaining Sage Mode, it wasn't until Naruto re-entered Sage Mode and had it all absorbed a second time did the Preta Path turn to a stone toad[ - ].

Absorbing one technique/forcing Kabuto to cancel it out near the start of absorption won't lead Nagato to turning to stone. He would most likely have to absorbing all of the Senjutsu from Kabuto for such an effect to happen.
 

Joker

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Yep. Absorbing senjutsu chakra has always been an issue for Nagato and the Preta Path. . . Sorta like how all attacks in sage mode contains Senjutsu chakra[ - ]. And Pein has had issues absorbing any of that. . . .

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Nagato will only be turned to stone once the senjutsu chaka out balances his normal chakra. Like what happened with the Preta Path, despite absorbing so many Senjutsu attacks. And even the remaining Sage Mode, it wasn't until Naruto re-entered Sage Mode and had it all absorbed a second time did the Preta Path turn to a stone toad[ - ].

Absorbing one technique/forcing Kabuto to cancel it out near the start of absorption won't lead Nagato to turning to stone. He would most likely have to absorbing all of the Senjutsu from Kabuto for such an effect to happen.

Nice point
 

~Sky~

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I believe Nagato wins this. I can't think of an attack Kabuto has that would work on Nagato, plus Nagato can freely rearrange his surroundings to his favor.

He can attack from the air too.
 

TheAncientCenturion

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I believe Nagato wins this. I can't think of an attack Kabuto has that would work on Nagato, plus Nagato can freely rearrange his surroundings to his favor.

He can attack from the air too.
Muki Tensei can be a rather devastating attack that Kabuto can deploy after taking care of the summonings that give the added sight, via Manda II and the poison it holds. This attack alone would further cripple Nagato and leave him more vulnerable.
 

~Sky~

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Muki Tensei can be a rather devastating attack that Kabuto can deploy after taking care of the summonings that give the added sight, via Manda II and the poison it holds. This attack alone would further cripple Nagato and leave him more vulnerable.

Wouldn't a 360 ST counter Muki Tensei? It wouldn't really catch Nagato off guard since he can sense chakra build up. And this is assuming Nagato doesn't blow open the cave and fight from the air.

I think Manda 2 would get overwhelmed by Nagato's summons actually. If it's too much of an issue he can just soul rip him or something.
 

TheAncientCenturion

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Wouldn't a 360 ST counter Muki Tensei? It wouldn't really catch Nagato off guard since he can sense chakra build up. And this is assuming Nagato doesn't blow open the cave and fight from the air.

I think Manda 2 would get overwhelmed by Nagato's summons actually. If it's too much of an issue he can just soul rip him or something.
1: Nagato would have to be familiar with Muki Tensei in order to counter in that manner. He would not know what kind of an attack to expect.

2: What will Nagato honestly do from the air? Kabuto's far too evasive and quick to be caught by any attack dealt by the Asura path. Using Bansho Tensei to draw Kabuto in will result in him escaping with an Oral Rebirth. Chibaku Tensei is countered by using Muki Tensei the second he touches it and forcing the rocks to destroy the core. Or, the very least create a safe bunker for him.

3: Manda II is something that was comparable to the Turtle Island, something that HELD Bijuu's comfortably on it's back. All of Nagato's summonings are of comparable size to boss summonings and Bijuu's. Manda II will not be overwhelmed by them. One bite ends each.

4: Nagato won't have time to do such a thing with Kabuto hounding him with both his own variation of Snake Summongs [ ], and the usage of the Sound Four's capabilities. I find Kimimaro's the best for distractions her, or keeping Nagato busy. Not too mention Manda II can shed it's skin quickly, like the original had to avoid the toad oil bullet, if Nagato draws it in.
 

~Sky~

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1: Nagato would have to be familiar with Muki Tensei in order to counter in that manner. He would not know what kind of an attack to expect.

Would he really have to know what Muki Tensei is? A 360 ST is the perfect counter, but you're right, he may not know to do it. He could just use ST on Kabuto before he even gets the jutsu off. He was able to use ST in between .

And he's supposedly a master of every element. I'm not going to get too into it because it's speculation, but there are a few Earth Style tech's that could avoid it.

Point is, Nagato's going to do something. He's not going to let Kabuto use a jutsu, that would be foolish.

On top of all that, is Kabuto going to even be on the offensive in this fight? Asura path is deadly, and he can freely modify his body parts to accommodate Asura. It would've killed Bee if not for Itachi.

2: What will Nagato honestly do from the air? Kabuto's far too evasive and quick to be caught by any attack dealt by the Asura path. Using Bansho Tensei to draw Kabuto in will result in him escaping with an Oral Rebirth. Chibaku Tensei is countered by using Muki Tensei the second he touches it and forcing the rocks to destroy the core. Or, the very least create a safe bunker for him.

I don't see how Oral Rebirth counters Bansho Tein. Even if he's shedding he's still caught in a gravitational pull, and after that he can use Human or Asura on Kabuto from point blank range.

An going air born makes Kimimaro pretty useless.

3: Manda II is something that was comparable to the Turtle Island, something that HELD Bijuu's comfortably on it's back. All of Nagato's summonings are of comparable size to boss summonings and Bijuu's. Manda II will not be overwhelmed by them. One bite ends each.

Except Nagato has many summons. Manda 2 is huge, but can it deal with all 7 at once? Especially since they can come from all sides. It does only have one mouth to bite with, after all.

And can you imagine the catastrophe that would be caused by this? Where would Kabuto and Nagato be? Nagato could quite easily attack manda while he is distracted through flight, something Kabuto really has no offensive option against.

4: Nagato won't have time to do such a thing with Kabuto hounding him with both his own variation of Snake Summongs [ ], and the usage of the Sound Four's capabilities. I find Kimimaro's the best for distractions her, or keeping Nagato busy. Not too mention Manda II can shed it's skin quickly, like the original had to avoid the toad oil bullet, if Nagato draws it in.

How is he getting hounded? Summons have proven to be no problem whatsoever for Nagato. He casually knocked three boss toads over long distances with just an ST. KCM Naruto and Bee both tried hounding Nagato and they were nearly killed.

I don't see Kimimaro doing anything really. Flight counters everything except his Bone fingers which are blocked with Gale Palm.
 

TheAncientCenturion

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Would he really have to know what Muki Tensei is? A 360 ST is the perfect counter, but you're right, he may not know to do it. He could just use ST on Kabuto before he even gets the jutsu off. He was able to use ST in between .

And he's supposedly a master of every element. I'm not going to get too into it because it's speculation, but there are a few Earth Style tech's that could avoid it.

Point is, Nagato's going to do something. He's not going to let Kabuto use a jutsu, that would be foolish.
Use Shina Tensei on Kabuto? Where do you think he is? Right in arms reach? No, Kabuto can use this technique from afar. Unless Nagato uses a larger scale Shinra Tensei, which would be pointless as Kabuto can evade it with the teleportation jutsu he has frequently made use of in the past [ ]

I am aware of his sensing feats, but without knowing the exact type of attack (One that was quick enough to catch Sasuke off guard), He is not going to waste one of his better defensive jutsu. Nor will this be the only technique on his mind by the time it's used. I'll get back to this in another section, however.

He has a feat in a single fuuton. That's it for his mastery.
On top of all that, is Kabuto going to even be on the offensive in this fight? Asura path is deadly, and he can freely modify his body parts to accommodate Asura. It would've killed Bee if not for Itachi.
Kabuto is not Bee, nor would he be caught so easily. He escaped through Susano'o's grasps before. The Asura Path won't be any issue, as I have said before. Unless Kabuto makes it into a close range, and even then debatable, he is avoiding the rockets and can escape from the chakra cannon.
I don't see how Oral Rebirth counters Bansho Tein. Even if he's shedding he's still caught in a gravitational pull, and after that he can use Human or Asura on Kabuto from point blank range.

An going air born makes Kimimaro pretty useless.
I'd see it more as the, now shed skin, is what is being pulled. But, assuming he is still caught. Let's see what happens next. Oral Rebirth. Liquidfying himself so Nagato can't get a proper grip. attacking him directly with the snake attached limb.

Going airborn also makes Nagato pretty useless.
Except Nagato has many summons. Manda 2 is huge, but can it deal with all 7 at once? Especially since they can come from all sides. It does only have one mouth to bite with, after all.

And can you imagine the catastrophe that would be caused by this? Where would Kabuto and Nagato be? Nagato could quite easily attack manda while he is distracted through flight, something Kabuto really has no offensive option against.
Nagato's summonings are going to be far too slow to land an attack on Manda II when it's moving. They'd have to rely on when it stops, and even then Kabuto can also summon lesser snakes to help Manda II. Not that it's needed. They aren't defeating Manda II who needs to only squeeze all but one to death, and the dog would be rendered useless after a bite. It would be problematic, but really. Manda II's strength and speed out classes all of them.
How is he getting hounded? Summons have proven to be no problem whatsoever for Nagato. He casually knocked three boss toads over long distances with just an ST. KCM Naruto and Bee both tried hounding Nagato and they were nearly killed.

I don't see Kimimaro doing anything really. Flight counters everything except his Bone fingers which are blocked with Gale Palm.
If Nagato uses Shinra Tensei, it leaves him open to Muki Tensei. Which is exactly what I was planning on happening. He will be distracted by either Kimimaro's bone forest and use Shinraa Tensei to repel that, or to deal with snake summonings, Kidomaru's web, et cetera.

KCM Naruto was caught off guard by the cameleon, something that won't happen to Kabuto. Killer Bee was 'taken out' thanks to the shared vision of the summongs and Nagato. You keep mentioning flight, whether on a bird or levitating as the Deva Path did. . .I'd like it if you could tell me exactly what Nagato can do next, after that. For as I see it, he's just prolonging the battle. He's not going to be capable of doing anything to kill Kabuto or hurt him from a height at which Kabuto can't counter.

I mean, I don't think I need to bring up the following jutsu to show how Kabuto wins. White Rage. Orochimaru's True form. Both of these are going to stun Nagato for more then long enough to be killed.

Sorry, it got messy by the end. My comp. died for a second and I had to restart it, so the last paragraph may be incoherent a tad. I lost my train of thought when I got back on.
 

Haizaki

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Kabuto wins honey. Hakugeki blocked Sasuke's vision and hearing and paralyzed his body completely. This and Muki Tensei on top and he's finished. People have no counter for this, they only assume that Nagato would be able to endure this. ;)

Hakugeki blocked sasuke's vision and hearing but how about Itachi?


Clearly Nagato can sense this guy cuz kabuto even thought Itachi could sense him...meaning being able to sense him, Nagato can tell where he is
 

Haizaki

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No, Bogard, false on several occasions. Hakugeki definitely lasts more than just a few seconds; Kabuto had the time to hold an inner monologue with himself and run towards Sasuke, until he was within his range. In this time, Kabuto could do several movements. Apart from that, Hakugeki doesn't only blind, but blocks your hearing and numbs your body, resulting in Sasuke's inability to maintain Susanoo. You only guess how Nagato could act while under the affect of Hakugeki; but he could also go on his knees, not able to protect himself against any high calibre attack. You say, Nagato is a sensor, while Kabuto explicitly said that Muki Tensei is something which control isn't even based on Chakra, so he in no way could sense that. As well as he couldn't properly sense bones shooting out of the ground. A sensor like Nagato could locate the position of Kabuto, but couldn't precisely sense such maneuvers and react effectively.

So you say, Nagato could use a powerful Shinra Tensei on the scale of a forest to blow away Muki Tensei and possibly even destroy the cave, but that will only result in Kabuto's victory, as he by himself won't receive damage which he couldn't render useless with his abilities, while the interval will completely restrict Tendo for a longer period, making it even easier for Kabuto to overwhelm Nagato with attacks like Muki Tensei or Sawarabi no Mai, as there will be no defense anymore.

Nagato while being burnt could use shinra tensei, Itachi could also use susanoo to protect sasuke while he was in pain from Muki tense..so I don't see why Nagato won't be able to use shinra tensei even when Hakugeki is being used. As for Muki tensei, considering heat was able to make the cave go back to it's original state , Nagato who can also use fire release should be able to use heat from which ever fire style jutsu to do the same and the reason why Itachi got hit by muki tensei was simply because he was slow to react due to trying to protect sasuke as stated by kabuto ..so it shouldn't be to fast for nagato to protect himself

Even if Nagto blows the cave, he can still use shinra tensei again immediately after using ST on such a large scale, he again used it straight after kakashi attacked
and again during the same battle
so interval doesn't matter here
 

~Sky~

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Sorry TAC I've been playing Skyrim. =/
 

Apêx1

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No, basically what I'm saying is that you can't physically grab a huge puddle of water.

@ 2nd bolded, please I urge you to revise the manga...

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Just because you're a big nagato fan, doesn't mean you should overrate him to characters he can't beat.

@First point Incorrect, where does it ever explicitly say he has to grab the part of the body he is soul ripping? As you can see here [ ] and here [ ] he doesn't necessarily have to grab the person. He simply needs to surround his hand with that chakra/aura like substance to begin his extraction. What prevents him from simply touching the puddle of water Kabuto is in and soul rip it.

You misunderstood my point. You stated he is 'known for his snake clones' when he is not. It is your assumption that he is known for them because he used them several times in a fight, it doesn't make him known for it. Being known for something is like Kakashi's sharingan, hence his nickname, Minato for his speed, hence his nickname. Kabuto having shown excessive use of snake clones in a single fight does by no means make him famous for it.

Only because I am a Nagato fan doesn't mean I will go balls deep to make him look like he's undefinable. Many people can defeat him and many people will lose to him, and Kabuto is just another one of those who will inevitably lose.
 

TheAncientCenturion

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No problem. For the past hour-hour and a half I have been getting 502 errors when I try to refresh NB.
 
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