It was a debate between Orochimaru and Jiraya, so the arguments were made between those 2(with me defending Jiraya of course)
Intro
1- Speculation
I noticed my opponents used some speculations concerning some Orochimaru's abilties without showing some kind of proof that he could perform any of the mentioned jutsus. I'm referring to Zetsu abilities. I personally don't think in a debate such as this one, it's particularly wise to include them when it could be wrong in the end since i don't remember it's once said in this manga that Orochimaru could perform every single jutsu of the host after the fushi tensei technique.
The speculation in itself is as well highly unlikely. To use techniques, it comes down to skills. Some of them requires years of training time to create/perform them(if you could even perform them to begin with). Even Uchiha geniuses like Sasuke(surpassing Orochimaru's own to his own admission [
Spiral Zetsu was surprised that Obito who possess half a Zetsu body had the skills to perform the Mokuton sashiki so fast without training [
Since he also always wanted to possess Uchiha blood(mostly for the Sharingan), possessing Sasuke's body(and thus Uchiha's blood) was just an added bonus [
So again, nothing shows or even implies Orochimaru could use Zetsu techniques when he never trained to achieve them. It's the same concerning the sage mode capability. Orochimaru always wanted to achieve Sage mode, but like Kabuto mentioned, his body wasn't compatible [
So like i show above, Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode because his body can't handle it and thus the counters my opponent used referring to Sage Mode should be taken out of the picture as well. He still wanted to gain the power smh however, so he created a variation of it, in the name of Curse seal
I've also seen my opponent saying Orochimaru displayed regenerative abilities. Let me tell you he is wrong. Orochimaru has no regenerative abilities(that's Kabuto). He only has reincarnation abilities allowing to avoid fatal injuries. For example, Orochimaru would have died right here if he didn't switch bodies [
Frog song
Contrary to what my opponent says, frog song will affect Orochimaru(Zetsu body or not). Sound is a vibration that propagates as a mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through some medium (such as air or water). Sometimes sound refers to only those vibrations with frequencies that are within the range of hearing for humans or for a particular animal. Air/water are flowing inside Orochimaru's body, so he is susceptible to sound vibrations, reason why frog song will affect him
Difference in speed/Difference in strength
In Sage Mode, it enhances Jiraya's strength to the point of destroying the Human Path's eyes [
Likewise, his speed enhances to the point where he could leap down from a high vantage point and form a giant Rasengan, before his sandals(which had fallen before he jumped) had even reached the ground. He was even capable to kick Animal path several meters away before he could perform even one handseal for the summoning jutsu [
Sound genjutsu
The prep time of the sound genjutsu isn't that long. It only takes a little time, the time it takes Pa and Ma to combine their voices into the right melody
So it's not like they have to prep it forever. The moment they combine their voices into the right melody, if the opponent is earing the sound of the melody, he is caught in it immediately
But even so, the time it takes for them to combine their voices for the right melody isn't an issue in this fight either. Most of Orochimaru's attacks are close-mid range anyway when sound genjutsu is all-ranges. All Jiraya has to do to affect Orochimaru with the sound genjutsu is to stay in a long range distance from him and Orochimaru could practically do nothing. Jiraya has the advantage in speed and power. If he felt like it, maintaining the distance with Orochimaru or slow him(or even defeat him lol) meantime won't be a problem.
When i sometimes read arguments against sound genjutsu, it's as if some people think Jiraya will just wait there and do nothing, no Jiraya isn't the one performing the genjutsu(it's Pa and Ma). Jiraya himself can move/perform techniques(he swiftly used a clone that even the Rinnengan shared vision almost failed to notice [
None of the counters my opponents showed are enough i'm afraid. Either the snakes slithering or Senei ta Jashu(both mid range attacks are best) are going to be slaughtered by Jiraya's attacks(yomi numa, senpou goemon, and so on). The last one(Great Breakthrough) is also a wind elemental attack. Wind is weak against fire and Jiraya is one of the best katon users in the manga. Despite being drugged, his fire(combined with Gamabunta's oil) created a fire technique of this scale [
Since in Sage Mode it increases the user's ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu at a furious rate, i can't even imagine the scale and power of the technique in this case especially undrugged. Not only Orochimaru's attack will increase Jiraya's own, but it will slaughter everything in it's path, Orochimaru and his probable summons included.
Ninjutsu/Summon
1- Summons
My opponent already explained how most Orochimaru's snake summons(including the 3giant snakes) will be useless, so i won't waste time on that. Talking about Manda however, his speed won't be an issue. The yomi numa is there to slow him down at the very least, if not completely sink it at best. After all, Jiraya performed the technique while being terribly drugged and it still managed to completely immobilise a giant snake [
According to the databook, it's impossible to escape the jutsu or even recover one strength's. The more you struggle, the more you sink and the swamp is bottomless, particularly effective against multiple enemies or giant summons
Manda(or even Orochimaru himself) would then be sunked completely by the attack and neither Orochimaru nor Manda displayed a valuable counter for this. Now add this [
2- Senpou Goemon(discussion)
Another attack with bounds of problems for Orochimaru. According to the databook, this powerful katon technique(in combinaison with Pa and Ma) burns at temperature of thousand degrees to the point it reduces everyone to cinders
3- Chou Odama Rasengan
Rasengan's power is often underestimated because of his often use, but that's ignoring the vital effect of the jutsu. Rasengan destroys internal organs. Even a small rasengan was able to do this [
Even Kabuto(with regenerative abilities that saved Orochimaru's life according to him [
It's bigger than human body by far
Orochimaru has no ways to survive this the moment he gets hit
4- Yamata no jutsu(discussion)
Yamata bigger than Manda? That's great, but the funny thing is that the different in size between that jutsu and Bunta(i didn't bother scaling Manda) is little to nothing.
Itachi compared to his complete Susanoo
Yamata compared to Itachi's Susanoo
Gamabunta's size
Like you can see, Orochimaru's greater summon is roughly 26m, which is not even that far ahead of Bunta who is roughly 20m long, so at most, Orochimaru's supposed most powerful snake summon is only 6meters longer than Bunta. With large scale katon ninjutsus like this one [
Conclusion
So in the end, Orochimaru has little to no chance against SM Jiraya. His far superior speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu in terms of power and scale alongside his unbreakable sound jutsu/genjutsus give him the win
1- Speculation
I noticed my opponents used some speculations concerning some Orochimaru's abilties without showing some kind of proof that he could perform any of the mentioned jutsus. I'm referring to Zetsu abilities. I personally don't think in a debate such as this one, it's particularly wise to include them when it could be wrong in the end since i don't remember it's once said in this manga that Orochimaru could perform every single jutsu of the host after the fushi tensei technique.
The speculation in itself is as well highly unlikely. To use techniques, it comes down to skills. Some of them requires years of training time to create/perform them(if you could even perform them to begin with). Even Uchiha geniuses like Sasuke(surpassing Orochimaru's own to his own admission [
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]) couldn't perform C-Rank Katon techniques without intense training [
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] [
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] despite having being taught the seals a while ago already [
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]. Spiral Zetsu was surprised that Obito who possess half a Zetsu body had the skills to perform the Mokuton sashiki so fast without training [
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], telling him he now knows why Madara choosed him(because of his quick learning potential). There is nothing in the manga that shows or even implies Orochimaru could perform every single technique of the user he possess with the fushi tensei no jutsu. If there is one, then i'd be glad if you showed me. The reason he wanted Kimimaro's/Sasuke's body is because their body was compatible with the curse seal(earth/heaven) [
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]. Since he also always wanted to possess Uchiha blood(mostly for the Sharingan), possessing Sasuke's body(and thus Uchiha's blood) was just an added bonus [
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]. So again, nothing shows or even implies Orochimaru could use Zetsu techniques when he never trained to achieve them. It's the same concerning the sage mode capability. Orochimaru always wanted to achieve Sage mode, but like Kabuto mentioned, his body wasn't compatible [
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], so he had to create a variation of Sage Mode using Jugo's ability(for the curse seal).So like i show above, Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode because his body can't handle it and thus the counters my opponent used referring to Sage Mode should be taken out of the picture as well. He still wanted to gain the power smh however, so he created a variation of it, in the name of Curse seal
I've also seen my opponent saying Orochimaru displayed regenerative abilities. Let me tell you he is wrong. Orochimaru has no regenerative abilities(that's Kabuto). He only has reincarnation abilities allowing to avoid fatal injuries. For example, Orochimaru would have died right here if he didn't switch bodies [
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] [
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]Frog song
Contrary to what my opponent says, frog song will affect Orochimaru(Zetsu body or not). Sound is a vibration that propagates as a mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through some medium (such as air or water). Sometimes sound refers to only those vibrations with frequencies that are within the range of hearing for humans or for a particular animal. Air/water are flowing inside Orochimaru's body, so he is susceptible to sound vibrations, reason why frog song will affect him
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Difference in speed/Difference in strength
In Sage Mode, it enhances Jiraya's strength to the point of destroying the Human Path's eyes [
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] with just a kick to the face(despite Rinnengan's shared vision) [
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], while also sending him several metres away. His strength improved to the point he can even unsummon 20meters long summons with nothing more than a mere punch [
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]. Likewise, his speed enhances to the point where he could leap down from a high vantage point and form a giant Rasengan, before his sandals(which had fallen before he jumped) had even reached the ground. He was even capable to kick Animal path several meters away before he could perform even one handseal for the summoning jutsu [
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]. Orochimaru never displayed speed/strength even close to this, so he is going to be murdered if they are in close range and with this kind of speed/strength even mid range isn't safe for himSound genjutsu
The prep time of the sound genjutsu isn't that long. It only takes a little time, the time it takes Pa and Ma to combine their voices into the right melody
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So it's not like they have to prep it forever. The moment they combine their voices into the right melody, if the opponent is earing the sound of the melody, he is caught in it immediately
But even so, the time it takes for them to combine their voices for the right melody isn't an issue in this fight either. Most of Orochimaru's attacks are close-mid range anyway when sound genjutsu is all-ranges. All Jiraya has to do to affect Orochimaru with the sound genjutsu is to stay in a long range distance from him and Orochimaru could practically do nothing. Jiraya has the advantage in speed and power. If he felt like it, maintaining the distance with Orochimaru or slow him(or even defeat him lol) meantime won't be a problem.
When i sometimes read arguments against sound genjutsu, it's as if some people think Jiraya will just wait there and do nothing, no Jiraya isn't the one performing the genjutsu(it's Pa and Ma). Jiraya himself can move/perform techniques(he swiftly used a clone that even the Rinnengan shared vision almost failed to notice [
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], attacking forward [
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] with his clone attacking from behind [
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], while the original later outsped Animal Path with his powerful senjutsu kick [
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]) before being ultimately caught by the genjutsu on the same page. None of the counters my opponents showed are enough i'm afraid. Either the snakes slithering or Senei ta Jashu(both mid range attacks are best) are going to be slaughtered by Jiraya's attacks(yomi numa, senpou goemon, and so on). The last one(Great Breakthrough) is also a wind elemental attack. Wind is weak against fire and Jiraya is one of the best katon users in the manga. Despite being drugged, his fire(combined with Gamabunta's oil) created a fire technique of this scale [
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]. Since in Sage Mode it increases the user's ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu at a furious rate, i can't even imagine the scale and power of the technique in this case especially undrugged. Not only Orochimaru's attack will increase Jiraya's own, but it will slaughter everything in it's path, Orochimaru and his probable summons included.
Ninjutsu/Summon
1- Summons
My opponent already explained how most Orochimaru's snake summons(including the 3giant snakes) will be useless, so i won't waste time on that. Talking about Manda however, his speed won't be an issue. The yomi numa is there to slow him down at the very least, if not completely sink it at best. After all, Jiraya performed the technique while being terribly drugged and it still managed to completely immobilise a giant snake [
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]. He even implied that it's ridiculous compared it should normally be(it should have completely sinked the snake) [
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]According to the databook, it's impossible to escape the jutsu or even recover one strength's. The more you struggle, the more you sink and the swamp is bottomless, particularly effective against multiple enemies or giant summons
Databook said:
Manda(or even Orochimaru himself) would then be sunked completely by the attack and neither Orochimaru nor Manda displayed a valuable counter for this. Now add this [
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](performed against while drugged) or the senpou goemon into this [
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] and it's easy to notice, Manda isn't a threat here. Infact SM Jiraya by himself can knock him out with a fast and powerful taijutsu punch [
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]2- Senpou Goemon(discussion)
Another attack with bounds of problems for Orochimaru. According to the databook, this powerful katon technique(in combinaison with Pa and Ma) burns at temperature of thousand degrees to the point it reduces everyone to cinders
Orochimaru and his summons would be reduced to ashes if they get hit by the attack and judging by the scale of said attack, Orochimaru has little to no counters for it judging by his close-mid range attack capabilitiesDatabook said:
3- Chou Odama Rasengan
Rasengan's power is often underestimated because of his often use, but that's ignoring the vital effect of the jutsu. Rasengan destroys internal organs. Even a small rasengan was able to do this [
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].Even Kabuto(with regenerative abilities that saved Orochimaru's life according to him [
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]) couldn't handle the damage caused by the jutsu despite concentrating all his chakra to regenerate all his cells in his body [
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]. At the very least, Orochimaru would be crippled if not rendered completely helpless by the jutsu, so let alone a Chou Odama rasengan which is hyped to carve a mountain while explodingDatabook said:
It's bigger than human body by far
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Orochimaru has no ways to survive this the moment he gets hit
4- Yamata no jutsu(discussion)
Yamata bigger than Manda? That's great, but the funny thing is that the different in size between that jutsu and Bunta(i didn't bother scaling Manda) is little to nothing.
Itachi compared to his complete Susanoo
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Yamata compared to Itachi's Susanoo
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Gamabunta's size
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Like you can see, Orochimaru's greater summon is roughly 26m, which is not even that far ahead of Bunta who is roughly 20m long, so at most, Orochimaru's supposed most powerful snake summon is only 6meters longer than Bunta. With large scale katon ninjutsus like this one [
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], it would be slaughteredConclusion
So in the end, Orochimaru has little to no chance against SM Jiraya. His far superior speed, taijutsu, ninjutsu in terms of power and scale alongside his unbreakable sound jutsu/genjutsus give him the win
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