[Debate] Kisame Hoshigaki vs MS Sasuke (beansandcornbread2 vs Fuhrer of Uchiha)

[paratise]

@adeshina this is a formal debate between 2 members you can't interfere or post anything related to being an arguement.

Kindly edit your post please.

 

[Beans2]

Please do not reply to this thread again, it is a formal debate between Fuhrer of Uchiha and myself.

 

[paratise]

^^^man erase that quote from your post.

 

[Yolobito Swagchiha]

Man, adeshina, that's a **** move.Just saying.

 

[Conspirator.]

Edit: It seems as though I've rustled some jimmies. I'm sure beansandcornbread2 knows that I completely gutted most of his argument.

:snick:

LOL! It's funny because it's true(and rude, but who cares )

 

[Dannie]

However, he would lose to the Akatsuki's Kisame Hoshigaki mainly due to the fact that Kisame is a very bad matchup for him, and can counter Sasuke's entire arsenal with relative ease.

Bad matchup? I strongly disagree. In fact, it's a pretty close matchup, and Sasuke has the edge.
Your words are vague and inappropriate. Kisame cannot handle this form of Sasuke with relative ease and he cannot counter all of Sasuke's moves.
I would like to see Kisame counter this:

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I hope you understand that Kirin is not chakra. Samehada only absorbs chakra, therefore he cannot just simply "absorb" this technique.
Sasuke is also faster and better at CQC. Kisame is very slow and abrupt at attacking, so Sasuke will have no problem dealing with this scenario. I see you didn't even bother to report this feat because you didn't think that it would matter, but it actually does.

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Sasuke speedblitzed Naruto, Sai, Sakura and Yamato with no difficulty.

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Sasuke speedblitzed Deidara and Tobi no difficulty. Even though Deidara dodged it, and got away, he still noticed Sasuke's speed. Kisame could easily get blitzed by Sasuke in the beginning of the fight, thus giving Sasuke the starting advantage. This will give Sasuke the chance to take control of the battle. If Kisame tries to evade Sasuke's speedblitz and attack Sasuke, then Sasuke will create a Enton barrier from his ribcage Susano'O.

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Kisame will be ripped into shreds if he touches these flames, just like with Ay's arm.

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Amaterasu is too hot for Samehada to handle, as stated in my earlier post, so he will not absorb it.

Also, about the water dome: Sasuke has the Sharingan and can read chakra like colors.

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If Kisame creates his water dome then Sasuke will simple dodge it and keep his distance away from the water dome like he did with Deidara's C4 Garuda.

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If Kisame tries to go near Sasuke then Sasuke will just use Amaterasu and blaze him. There are many ways to avoid the water dome, especially when you have eyes like Sasuke who can see chakra perfectly.

Kirin is not happening in this fight. It requires katons and prep time,

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Hm, I wonder what Sasuke was about to use here? If it's what I think it is then it wouldn't really require any prep at all, now would it? Also, If Kirin actually does require prep then the prep for Kirin requires Katon and Amaterasu(which Kisame is not absorbing because it has shown to be extremely hot for Samehada to handle. Also, the argument about Kisame absorbing Katon is childish. So you are stating that he will simply jump into the air and stop the fireball from going into the sky creating the cumulonimbus clouds? This is the path that you are trying to show me. If Sasuke launches a Katon into the sky then Kisame will probably let it go into the sky. It's as simple as that. I doubt he will care for a fireball jutsu that has no threat to him. He will not chase after the fireball and try to absorb it. That would be insolent and ridiculous, unless he knows what Sasuke is trying to do, which I highly doubt it. So no, Kirin is still a possible weapon.

My assumption is that there doesn't need to be any prep for Kirin. If you choose to add prep to this technique then it would probably just increase the power and destructive force of this technique. If you choose not to add prep to this technique then it probably be vastly weaker than the Kirin with prep. Altogether, Kirin is still a reliable weapon with or without prep, and can still be used.

which Kisame is not going to let fly.

Last time I checked, Kisame was not in control of Sasuke's actions. If Sasuke wants to set up Kirin then I don't see what will hinder him from doing so. Sasuke has the necessary reflexes to do so. He was able to use it on Itachi, so I don't see how he can't use it on Kisame who is much slower.

The only time Kirin has ever been used, it required 2 Katon: Goukakyuu no jutsus from Sasuke, two from Itachi, four giant fire dragons from Sasuke, and half a forest lit on Amaterasu.

This is not a problem, since Sasuke already has access to Amaterasu, unlike with his battle with Itachi, he has a better chance to set up Kirin than when he fought Itachi, so your excuses are irrelevant and not needed. He can either fire Amaterasu all over the battlefield, (which Kisame will have no way to absorb, because like I said countless times, it's too hot for him to handle), or just blaze Kisame with it from the beginning of the fight making all of this back and forth argument meaningless.
He can also shoot Katon's up into the air to increase the chances of Kirin.

as I said earlier, Kisame uses his Suiton to easily extinguish the flames.

1. Amaterasu is not just regular fire because it is inextinguishable, meaning it cannot be taken out by water or anything, so simple Suiton attacks would be useless. Only the caster can cancel Amaterasu. I thought you would know this, but I guess not. This must explain why I'm still arguing with you.
Regular Katon attacks are shot into the air before Kisame can even counter them with his Suiton. So, this gets rid of that problem.

Unless this battle takes place during a thunderstorm, Kirin is simply not an option for Sasuke.

Funny, because Itachi's battle did not start with a thunderstorm.

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Sasuke was the one who created the thunderstorm with the necessary conditions. So no, kirin can definitely happen with or without a thunderstorm.

Neither of these jutsu pose a problem to Kisame.

I figured you would say this.

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Obito, an Uchiha, got caught immediately by this jutsu, and even had to use Kamui(speculation since he's still alive and we don't know if he actually used it or not) to warp it away. I fail to see how Kisame, who doesn't even possess a Sharingan, or any type of warping ability can survive this. As I stated earlier, Amaterasu is too hot for Samehada to handle.
Who also caught Danzo with it who had to use Izanagi to counter it.

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This will be Kisame's exact fate because he doesn't have Kamui or Izanagi. Please.

When he is merged with Samehada, he has been shown to absorb ninjutsu, including fire-style chakra:

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Samehada, who couldn't even handle a Katon, which is far far far far far weaker and less less less hotter than Amaterasu can absorb Amaterasu? Ok.

Now, my opponent used this exact same scan to show that Samehada couldn't absorb katon, when in fact it proves the exact opposite. Samehada successfully absorbed the katon completely and fully;

>Samehada was too overwhelmed by Itachi's Grand fireball technique to absorb it completely and fully. Fact.
>Amaterasu is hotter than Grand Fire Ball. Fact.
This is indisputable.

the fact that it 'thunked' Bee on the head afterwards shows mild irritation, not inability.

You are simply ignoring Bee's words and ignoring the fact that it cannot handle it. Amaterasu is in a league of it's own when it comes to power and heat. Samehada cannot absorb something when it has shown it can't even handle a simple Katon. Please.

In fact, my guess is that Kishi included that simply for comic relief.

Comic Relief? Now you are using comic relief as a means to counter my point? There was no comic relief in that scenario and you know it. Now you are ignoring facts to fit your own argument and even making assumptions. Ok.

My opponent also says that absorbing a katon is different from absorbing Amaterasu, which is superior. The fact remains that Amaterasu is still, at its core, a chakra-based ninjutsu, and therefore can be absorbed by Samehada.

Same as above. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over again to the point that you are annoying.
A regular Katon was too much for Samehada to handle, so Amaterasu would tear him apart. Fact.

The only time Samehada will not be able to absorb ninjutsu is when it is simply overwhelmed by the amount of chakra, as seen when it could not fully absorb Bee's V2 state.

So, Amaterasu is not overwhelmed chakra?? So, what is overwhelmed chakra then? I think you should read the context and meaning of the word overwhelmed. A regular Katon is apparently overwhelmed chakra since it couldn't even handle it.

Amaterasu does not contain excessive levels of chakra, or else Itachi (who had low stamina/chakra levels when he was alive) could not have used it.

You are using a bad and irrelevant comparison. It is not even about whether or not it's excessive chakra(which in Amaterasu's case it is), but how hot and intense it is. I WILL REPEAT THIS FOR THE LAST TIME! Samehada cannot handle Amaterasu when it couldn't even follow with a basic Katon.

However, at this point Kisame is in his water dome, about 50 meters away from Sasuke. Kisame is extremely fast underwater and can dodge the arrow from this distance.

While Kisame is busy trolling underwater, this will give Sasuke more than enough time to emblaze the arena in Amaterasu, thus setting up for Kirin, and destroying his fodder water dome along with it. Also, it doesn't matter if he is underwater. Amaterasu can still hit him while he is underwater because it appears on your body immediately at the users eyesight. Kisame can hide all he wants to, but he cannot evade Amaterasu.

Kisame floods the battlefield with his water dome, and Sasuke is a sitting duck in his Susano'o, surrounded by water on all sides. Kisame uses Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu (otherwise known as Great Shark Bullet) to finish Sasuke. As I said earlier, the Susano'o is a physical manifestation of chakra.

Amaterasu. Amaterasu. Amaterasu. While Sasuke is surrounded by Kisame's water techniques, Kisame will not notice when Sasuke will shoot Amaterasu , so Sasuke will emblaze him with Amaterasu.

The characteristics of Great Shark Bullet is that this jutsu absorbs chakra from an opponent's ninjutsu. Kisame stated that the stronger the opponent's jutsu, the stronger the shark becomes. Therefore, Great Shark Bullet attacks the Susano'o head on, and absorbs his entire Susano'o and wrecks Sasuke. Once his Susano'o is gone, Sasuke drowns. GG

You can't absorb something that you cannot see. Amaterasu is almost instant, so how will he use that attack on something that could appear out of the blue without him noticing?

Kisame plays the waiting game. In case it isn't obvious, Kisame is a chakra monster, a testament to that being he was known as the Tailless Tailed Beast, and he spit out lakes against Team Gai when he only had 30% chakra. All Kisame needs to do is maintain his water dome, and Sasuke either goes blind from overusing Susano'o, or retracts Susano'o and drowns. Without the eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke cannot maintain MS techniques for very long, and Kisame easily outlasts him. Kisame wins.

Amaterasu destroys him in the beginning before he can even create his water dome. It all comes down to who can activate their powers first, and since Sasuke's Amaterasu is faster to activate, then Sasuke has the edge. It takes longer for Kisame to activate his water dome and merge with his Samehada, so Sasuke will fry him first.

The only points I will concede with are Kisame countering Chidori, and him sensing chakra under the water, but once the battle begins, Sasuke will activate Amaterasu like he always does and blaze Kisame.

You have yet to give me a legitimate counter for Amaterasu or Kirin. You say he will simply absorb Amaterasu, but it has shown to be inferior to Itachi's Grand fireball Technique.

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You state that this was used as comedic relief and therefore not intended to be taken seriously. Foolish.
You state that Samehada absorb the Grand Fireball Technique when In fact it could barely handle 1/3 of it. Foolish.
The prep for Kirin is already determined with Amaterasu.

My conclusion: Sasuke wins this with mid-high difference due to having Amaterasu and Kirin(if used).

 

[Beans2]

It's actually extremely irritating how you deny that Samehada can absorb Amaterasu. Your whole argument revolves around amaterasu so I'll start with that. Another note: half of the scans you provided are completely irrelevant to the topic. Funny, it seems that you are including irrelevant scans just because you think posting manga pages will improve your credibility.

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As you can see in the image above, Samehada absorbed the katon. That is a fact. The only parts that were not absorbed were the flames which didn't touch Samehada.

Samehada, who couldn't even handle a Katon, which is far far far far far weaker and less less less hotter than Amaterasu can absorb Amaterasu? Ok.

>Samehada was too overwhelmed by Itachi's Grand fireball technique to absorb it completely and fully. Fact.
>Amaterasu is hotter than Grand Fire Ball. Fact.
This is indisputable.

You are simply ignoring Bee's words and ignoring the fact that it cannot handle it. Amaterasu is in a league of it's own when it comes to power and heat. Samehada cannot absorb something when it has shown it can't even handle a simple Katon. Please.

Why do you keep denying manga facts and saying Samehada couldn't handle a katon, and was overwhelmed by it? Samehada very clearly absorbed the fire. I'm actually astounded you are even trying to make points like this. I don't like to repeat myself, but you're forcing me to: the fact that it 'thunked' Bee on the head afterwards shows mild irritation, not inability. Does Samehada like absorbing katon? No. Will it absorb katon? Yes. When we're talking about absorbing fire, the same principles apply to Amaterasu as they do katon. Even if Samehada does not willingly absorb Amaterasu, Kisame can force it to after merging with it. Yes, you read that right.

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Notice how Samehada only betrayed Kisame for Bee after it seperated from Kisame. If it could have, Samehada would've seperated from Kisame while he was still battling with Bee in the water dome. It was only after Samehada and Kisame disconnected that Samehada earned a free will of its own. Also, Kisame merged and hid within Samehada in order to infiltrate the Hidden Cloud and gain intel on the location of the Hachibi and Kyubi:

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Bee specifically states that Kisame forced Samehada to merge with him. On the next page, Kisame forces Samehada to absorb Bee's chakra:

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That being said, Kisame can force Samehada to absorb amaterasu if necessary.

Moving on: here's what the databook has to say about Amaterasu:

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Translation:

"The ones reflected in these eyes turn to ash!! A black world-destroying
conflagration that scorches all on heaven and earth!!"

The Uchiha clan, originally significant as "those with the fans which manipulate
fire", traditionally specialize in Katon jutsu, but there is a legendary jutsu
unknown outside the clan. This is "Amaterasu". The appearance of these flames
are jet-black. The high temperature is like the sun, and one time touching it is
the last. It is said that this is named after the Goddess of the Sun as it
continues to burn for seven days and seven nights. However, the Mangekyou
Sharingan is necessary to activate this jutsu, and for this reason there are not
many who have learned this jutsu. Therefore, the details of this jutsu are yet
unrevealed...

Picture text:
Top: The black flames that only the owner of the Mangekyou Sharingan can control
are even able to instantly break through the side of a rock toad who breathes
fire!!
Bottom: Jiraiya, whi has mastered many jutsu, did not know of the existence of
Amaterasu. What he does understand is the power of the suspicious conflagration.

I believe the databook is the only source at all that states Amaterasu is hotter than normal fire. As I'm sure you know, the databook exaggerates the power of almost every jutsu. The flames will not actually burn for seven days and seven nights. One time touching it is not necessarily always the last. The flames are not as hot as the sun. That being said, there's no reason to believe that flames from Amaterasu are any hotter than normal flames.

You can't absorb something that you cannot see. Amaterasu is almost instant, so how will he use that attack on something that could appear out of the blue without him noticing?

What is this madness? Kisame doesn't need to see Amaterasu to absorb it, Samehada does it for him. Absorbing chakra is almost instant so the moment it appears on his body it gets absorbed. Even if the flames do burn him slightly in the millisecond it takes to absorb them, Samehada will heal him from the minor burns just like it healed him from Bee's V2 Lariat, which was a much more serious injury:

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Something else I'd like to point out: according to science, a bolt of lightning is five times hotter than the surface of the sun. Samehada dealt with Bee's Raiton-enhanced swords with no trouble at all:

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Even if the databook was not exaggerating at all, and Amaterasu really is "as hot as the sun", it makes no difference. Samehada absorbed chakra that was five times hotter than Amaterasu, your argument that "amaterasu is too hot for Samehada to absorb" is invalid.

Source of the scientific fact:

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Now that it's established that Amaterasu can be absorbed, we'll move on to Kirin.

You say that Kirin does not require prep time and katons because of this scan:

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I will ackowledge that that's a good argument. But, we didn't see Sasuke actually use it, and it's illogical to assume that Kirin requires no prep time (if it didn't, Sasuke would have just used Kirin on Deidara at the beginning of their fight and end it before it started. Same with Itachi, Danzo, and all other opponent's he's battled.)

Moreover, we have this scan:

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He wouldn't of used up all his chakra to spam fireballs into the air if he knew he could use kirin without katons first. The only explanation for that first scan is that Sasuke didn't know the full details of Kirin yet, and didn't know it needed katons and prep time. In fact, that's one of the reasons Sasuke killed Orochimaru when he did - once he perfected kirin, he saw no reason to stay and continue to train under Orochimaru's guidance.

Now that it's established that Kirin requires prep time and katons, there's no way it is happening in this fight.

Also, the argument about Kisame absorbing Katon is childish. So you are stating that he will simply jump into the air and stop the fireball from going into the sky creating the cumulonimbus clouds? This is the path that you are trying to show me. If Sasuke launches a Katon into the sky then Kisame will probably let it go into the sky. It's as simple as that. I doubt he will care for a fireball jutsu that has no threat to him.

He can also shoot Katon's up into the air to increase the chances of Kirin

I never said that Kisame would absorb regular katons. He can, but he doesn't need to. Do you think Kisame is just going to sit and watch Sasuke spam fireballs into the sky? It would be suicide for Sasuke to even try that. As Sasuke is blowing a fireball into the sky, Kisame spits out his water dome and now Sasuke is underwater. Congratulations, Sasuke unleashed a grand total of 1 fireball into the sky and now he's underwater so he can't use any more. No more fireballs = No kirin.

About blitzing: The starting distance is 40 meters. No one is getting blitzed. Kisame can literally spit out his water dome faster than Sasuke can traverse 40 meters. Your comparisons with Deidara and Naruto are irrelevant, as the distances between them were much, much, much shorter.

Also, about the water dome: Sasuke has the Sharingan and can read chakra like colors.
If Kisame creates his water dome then Sasuke will simple dodge it and keep his distance away from the water dome like he did with Deidara's C4 Garuda.

The sharingan isn't helping Sasuke with dodging the water dome. Just because you can see something doesn't mean you can avoid it. You're really underestimating the size of the water dome and the speed at which Kisame can spit it out. Sasuke cannot simply "dodge it". Look at the size of the water dome:

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Even if Sasuke by some miracle dodges the water dome, he will get caught up in it soon. The dome of water is centered around Kisame.

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Kisame's speed underwater > Sasuke's speed. Even Bee in his V2 form wasn't fast enough to escape it. It is inevitable that Sasuke will be caught in the water dome, and will be forced to put up Susano'o to protect himself. From then on, Kisame either uses Great Shark Bullet to absorb/destroy the Susano'o or he waits until Sasuke exhausts himself. You couldn't provide counters for either of these strategies. Now Sasuke is underwater and drowns.

Kisame mid diff.

PS: I say we each get one more post on this thread, and then have the judges decide who won. Otherwise, this will go on forever.

PPS: I said the "comic relief" thing to rustle your jimmies. It worked.

 

[Dannie]

I quit. I'm tired of explaining this shit to you about Samehada not absorbing Amaterasu. I will just make another thread and a poll and see what the majority of the NB say. If the majority overpower my words then fine. It's settled. Otherwise you're full of shit and denying manga facts.

 

[Conspirator.]

^^It doesn't matter if samaheda can absorb amaterasu. It still murders kisame. THe minute the flames touch his flesh, he will get burned to a crisp.(A focused amaterasu burns at an alarming rate) Since samaheda hates fire-he will probably just run away. In fact, I believe amaterasu may destroy samaheda, as it still gets damaged even when it absorbs chakra.(as evidenced vs killer bee)

 

[Beans2]

I quit. I'm tired of explaining this shit to you about Samehada not absorbing Amaterasu. I will just make another thread and a poll and see what the majority of the NB say. If the majority overpower my words then fine. It's settled. Otherwise you're full of shit and denying manga facts.

So, in other words, you give up because you can't counter my arguments. And the base's opinion =/= manga facts. Judges, who do you think wins?

^^It doesn't matter if samaheda can absorb amaterasu. It still murders kisame. THe minute the flames touch his flesh, he will get burned to a crisp.(A focused amaterasu burns at an alarming rate) Since samaheda hates fire-he will probably just run away. In fact, I believe amaterasu may destroy samaheda, as it still gets damaged even when it absorbs chakra.(as evidenced vs killer bee)

You're not part of this debate. Kindly delete your post

 

[Conspirator.]

^^uh, how about no?

 

[Dannie]

So, in other words, you give up because you can't counter my arguments. And the base's opinion =/= manga facts. Judges, who do you think wins?

Once you come to your senses that Samehada can absorb Amaterasu then more than half of your post will be bullshit anyway, which was my main argument to begin with. You have no counter for Amaterasu other than your own moronic denial.

It also gets irritating trying to show someone a panel and they try to interpret it themselves and ignore what it actually means.

 

[paratise]

Stop smacktalking peeps it goes nowhere.

 

[Yolobito Swagchiha]

​So, uh. I'm just gonna say that I win the debate. Yay.

 

[Beans2]

I'm so tired of getting cussed out and called an idiot. Can the judges just decide who won so we can be done with this thread already?

 

[Yolobito Swagchiha]

Sigh. Well, in my opinion, the winner is...

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Fuhrer of Uchiha.

His points were just illustrated clearer and with more scans. Not to mention that in a real battle, chances are MS Sasuke would win this matchup. I just don't feel that Samehada would be able to absorb Amaterasu as beans said.

Both participants get a rep, though.

 

[Varrah]

Well, if I were a judge, my vote would be:
















































































Itachi's solos.

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​

 

[WolfHaley]

Both debaters are one rep point richer. It's good to be alive.

 

[swirlyshark]

Once you come to your senses that Samehada can absorb Amaterasu then more than half of your post will be bullshit anyway, which was my main argument to begin with. You have no counter for Amaterasu other than your own moronic denial.it also gets irritating trying to show someone a panel and they try to interpret it themselves and ignore what it actually means.

I'm not just gunna read anymore even if samehada can't absorb amaterasu u can't say sasuke wins cause of one technique that's like saying pein beats everyone because no one can withstand his almighty push
So since u keep running back to the fact he uses amateratsu you lose and he just CNT spam it anyway this isn't ems sasuke this is ms sasuke maybe he can use it once or twice before it takes its toll and he becomes tired and weak enough for kisame to win and no I'm not fanboying I'm just stating facts

 

[Yolobito Swagchiha]

I'm not just gunna read anymore even if samehada can't absorb amaterasu u can't say sasuke wins cause of one technique that's like saying pein beats everyone because no one can withstand his almighty push
So since u keep running back to the fact he uses amateratsu you lose and he just CNT spam it anyway this isn't ems sasuke this is ms sasuke maybe he can use it once or twice before it takes its toll and he becomes tired and weak enough for kisame to win and no I'm not fanboying I'm just stating facts

What you said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Ever heard of a Oneshot? Yeah, that's almost what happened to Danzo if it wasn't for Izanagi, and even Obito if it wasn't for Kamui. Samehada can't absorb Amaterasu until I find a suitable explanation. Kisame has nothing to put out the flames. He doesn't need to spam it. Kisame doesn't survive one.