[Theory] Ritual suicide of the Shinigami?

[valandil988]

I want to propose an idea that just struck me just now.

When Orochimaru releases the previous Hokage from the Shiki Fuinjin he states that the "Shinigami of the reaper death seal possesses the wearer of the mask" in front of the Uchiha tablet.

The possessing spirit proceeds to ritually sacrifice "itself" commit Senpuku with no prompting (at least I believe there isn't any) from Orochimaru. Though it does suggest that the user of the ritual is the one in control, however this seems to be at odds with the "possession" he talks about.

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Does this indicated some form of penitence Or guilt on the behalf of Kaguya?

Overall it seems that the consensuses is that Kaguya became the shinigami of the reaper death seal. How this happened and why is a mystery.

Is the Shinigami of the reaper death seal acting out scenes from when it was alive? Are all of its related jutsu a method by which the user can "relive" the moments of the Shinigami's prior life?

Is it possible that Kaguya is trapped inside a never ending cycle of reliving her past mistakes?

Anyway I thought I would post this idea, it intrigued me. If Sir Derp would be so kind as to review this idea I would be quite pleased .

 

[Rohan]

Nice Theory.

 

[Hori]

Where are the humans that said kaguya is the Uzumaki Shiningami?

 

[Allsymbolsparttwo]

first of all, the shinigami of naruto is NOT Kaguya, that's only a theory, kishi named it shiki for a reason

Shikigami are said to be invisible most of the time, but they can be made visible by banning them into small, folded and artfully cut paper manikins. There are also shikigami that can show themselves as animals or birds. They must be conjured during a complex ceremony and their power is connected to the spiritual force of their master. If the evoker is well introduced and has lots of experience, his Shiki can possess animals and even people and manipulate them. But if the evoker is careless, his shikigami may get out of control in time, gaining its own will and consciousness. In this case the shikigami will raid its own master and kill him in revenge. Normally shikigami are conjured to exercise risky orders for their masters, such as spying around, stealing and enemy tracking.

now notice it said

They must be conjured during a complex ceremony and their power is connected to the spiritual force of their master.

call me crazy, but that's exactly what happens when someone summons the shinigami,

minato's spiritual force is seen

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hiruzen is seen

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very shikigami like, they do the ritual, conjures it and both invoker and the spirit is connected.


kishi changes it a little like the juubi taught to be a tengu but end up a tree, the gami devours the soul of the user, whether careless or not,.

 

[valandil988]

Where are the humans that said kaguya is the Uzumaki Shiningami?

Umm here:

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first of all, the shinigami of naruto is NOT Kaguya, that's only a theory, kishi named it shiki for a reason



now notice it said



call me crazy, but that's exactly what happens when someone summons the shinigami,

minato's spiritual force is seen


hiruzen is seen




very shikigami like, they do the ritual, conjures it and both invoker and the spirit is connected.

and as orochimaru said, the being can possess people just like the shikigami

kishi changes it a little like the juubi taught to be a tengu but end up a tree, the gami devours the soul of the user, whether careless or not,.

Umm, are you refuting the point of the thread or not?

IF you say it is not alive in any way, how can the jutsu possess people?

Orochimaru didn't look completely ready when his arms got outstretched like that, he looked surprised.

 

[Allsymbolsparttwo]

Umm, are you refuting the point of the thread or not?

IF you say it is not alive in any way, how can the jutsu possess people?

Orochimaru didn't look completely ready when his arms got outstretched like that, he looked surprised.

just sharing an interesting find.

the shikigami is not a jutsu, it's a spiritual entity, the jutsu is just a ritual to summon it

 

[valandil988]

just sharing an interesting find.

the shikigami is not a jutsu, it's a spiritual entity, the jutsu is just a ritual to summon it

Hmm a spiritual entity? Ok lets go with that, where did it come from?

Answer is it must come from the Shinju. If its the creator of the world the progenitor this spiritual entity must have come from it as well. However how did people learn to summon it? Doing rituals is one thing, actually realizing and figuring out how to summon an entity that had no prior connections with humans is another thing entirely.

If Kaguya became the shinigami it would make sense where the jutsu's came from that summon her. SO6P likely created them or studied her due to her being his own mother. Eventually much like the other sealing techniques the sage devised the jutsu's were passed down to the Uzumaki clan.

 

[Hori]

Umm here:

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Are you sane? What part of this image tells me about Kaguya being a shiningami?

Spoiler

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All the image says is the jutsu belongs to the Uzumaki clan, because Orochimaru founded information about it there.

 

[valandil988]

Are you sane? What part of this image tells me about Kaguya being a shiningami?

Spoiler

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All the image says is the jutsu belongs to the Uzumaki clan, because Orochimaru founded information about it there.

Oh I didn't read your post properly, I thought you were asking about the Uzumaki being to holders of information about the reaper death seal and the shinigami.

No there is little evidence explicitly stated to suggest that Kaguya is in fact the shinigami of the reaper death seal, however the evidence that is present is the appearance, with the horns and the fact that the jutsu originate with the Uzumaki who likely got the justu alongside the SO6Ps sealing techniques from the Sage.

How would sage come up with jutsu that could summon an otherworldly being if he hadn't had first hand experience with it being his mother .

 

[Seventh Sama]

Well you maybe right, Also RDS is hinted to be rikudou's jutsu...

 

[Allsymbolsparttwo]

Hmm a spiritual entity? Ok lets go with that, where did it come from?

Answer is it must come from the Shinju. If its the creator of the world the progenitor this spiritual entity must have come from it as well. However how did people learn to summon it? Doing rituals is one thing, actually realizing and figuring out how to summon an entity that had no prior connections with humans is another thing entirely.

If Kaguya became the shinigami it would make sense where the jutsu's came from that summon her. SO6P likely created them or studied her due to her being his own mother. Eventually much like the other sealing techniques the sage devised the jutsu's were passed down to the Uzumaki clan.

simple, it is said the shikigami can show themselves as animals and humans, there is lots of mythologies of spiritual beings appearing in human form to influence mankind, teaching them warfare, intelligence and etc etc

how do we know the shikigami didn't have prior interventions with humans???? the shinju had meetings with humans, heck humans praised it as a host of the maker

 

[Hori]

Oh I didn't read your post properly, I thought you were asking about the Uzumaki being to holders of information about the reaper death seal and the shinigami.

No there is little evidence explicitly stated to suggest that Kaguya is in fact the shinigami of the reaper death seal, however the evidence that is present is the appearance, with the horns and the fact that the jutsu originate with the Uzumaki who likely got the justu alongside the SO6Ps sealing techniques from the Sage.

How would sage come up with jutsu that could summon an otherworldly being if he hadn't had first hand experience with it being his mother .

There is no evidence that makes Kaguya that Shiningami, if so what about the other ones?

Spoiler

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Since Orochimaru took a mask from there and it became a shiningami, then I ask you who are those other 26 masks of shiningamis then?
Also saying that this jutsu is related to rikudou sennin is not true. This is because in manga there has been no relationship established between the SO6P and the Uzumaki clan, everything you read about them having a connection is entirely a theory that other people like in NB have theorized on.

So the only beings in NV we are sure they are connected to SO6P is the Uchiha and Senju clan nothing more. We also know that Sharingan is from Byakugan and Senju clan is distant relatives to Uzumaki clan. This is the information so far Kishi has provided us with. However if you still have proof that says Kaguya is related to that shiningami not just by providing a scan that says Orochimaru has founded the jutsu in the Uzumaki's ruins, when we know he 1st saw it when Hiruzen used it on him.

 

[valandil988]

simple, it is said the shikigami can show themselves as animals and humans, there is lots of mythologies of spiritual beings appearing in human form to influence mankind, teaching them warfare, intelligence and etc etc

how do we know the shikigami didn't have prior interventions with humans???? the shinju had meetings with humans, heck humans praised it as a host of the maker

We don't know if the Shinju could even speak to people or if it just existed and people worshiped it.

Again your assuming entire scenarios, I'm trying to extrapolate from what I know without creating entire possibilities that are completely unsupported by the manga. Not bashing you but I'm just going about this a different way.

There is no evidence that makes Kaguya that Shiningami, if so what about the other ones?

Spoiler

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Since Orochimaru took a mask from there and it became a shiningami, then I ask you who are those other 26 masks of shiningamis then?
Also saying that this jutsu is related to rikudou sennin is not true. This is because in manga there has been no relationship established between the SO6P and the Uzumaki clan, everything you read about them having a connection is entirely a theory that other people like in NB have theorized on.

So the only beings in NV we are sure they are connected to SO6P is the Uchiha and Senju clan nothing more. We also know that Sharingan is from Byakugan and Senju clan is distant relatives to Uzumaki clan. This is the information so far Kishi has provided us with. However if you still have proof that says Kaguya is related to that shiningami not just by providing a scan that says Orochimaru has founded the jutsu in the Uzumaki's ruins, when we know he 1st saw it when Hiruzen used it on him.

Listen I'm not here to provide scans for you, go look for images of the shinigami if you want, then go look and images of Kaguya with her dirty great big horns. Look familiar?

What about Uzumaki fuinjutsu?

Its likely been passed down to them from the sage. Naruto's own seal is likely the same jutsu that the SO6P used on the juubi. Kurama stated when being resealed that it was the "six paths" well perhaps he was talking about the seal in particular.

And besides this is a hypothesis, I can't provide evidence that directly proves it. If I could it would be an accepted manga fact so stop harping on about this point.

 

[Allsymbolsparttwo]

We don't know if the Shinju could even speak to people or if it just existed and people worshiped it.

Again your assuming entire scenarios, I'm trying to extrapolate from what I know without creating entire possibilities that are completely unsupported by the manga. Not bashing you but I'm just going about this a different way..

Lol, my claims has more proof than yours, show me where kaguya is stated to be a shinigami???

my claims of shikigami is supported by the fact that the shinigami is connected to it's master spiritual force

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2, it's conjured by ritual, which minato and hiruzen does by the handsign

3. The shikgami can possess people and manipulate them,

the shinigami possess the victim and grabs their soul thus manipulation,

4. it can kill it's invoker which it did to minato AND hiruzen.


what do you have to point out that kaguya is a shinigami??

 

[valandil988]

Lol, my claims has more proof than yours, show me where kaguya is stated to be a shinigami???

my claims of shikigami is supported by the fact that the shinigami is connected to it's master spiritual force



2, it's conjured by ritual, which minato and hiruzen does by the handsign

3. The shikgami can possess people and manipulate them,

the shinigami possess the victim and grabs their soul thus manipulation,

4. it can kill it's invoker which it did to minato AND hiruzen.


what do you have to point out that kaguya is a shinigami??

*Facepalm*

Your not proving any point, all your proving is that its a shinigami or shikigami or whatever lol.

My point is built upon the fact that its a shinigami. I'm not denying that Kaguya became this creature or whatever creature.

What exactly are you trying to "disprove" you can't because its a statement of a hypothesis its an idea that fits current facts, whether its true or not is up to debate and the manga. I'm not saying its 1000% true jeez. Everything I've said here not one statement has been made in the canon manga to disprove this hypothesis as of yet.

Ergo you can't "disprove" my idea.

You can create a logical standpoint from other facts to create a counter argument, but you can't disprove it.

Please people when you discuss things think things through first or you end up looking like an idiot.

 

[Hori]

We don't know if the Shinju could even speak to people or if it just existed and people worshiped it.

Again your assuming entire scenarios, I'm trying to extrapolate from what I know without creating entire possibilities that are completely unsupported by the manga. Not bashing you but I'm just going about this a different way.



Listen I'm not here to provide scans for you, go look for images of the shinigami if you want, then go look and images of Kaguya with her dirty great big horns. Look familiar?

What about Uzumaki fuinjutsu?

Its likely been passed down to them from the sage. Naruto's own seal is likely the same jutsu that the SO6P used on the juubi. Kurama stated when being resealed that it was the "six paths" well perhaps he was talking about the seal in particular.

And besides this is a hypothesis, I can't provide evidence that directly proves it. If I could it would be an accepted manga fact so stop harping on about this point.

Well then it is common sense then that if the hypothesis can't be proved because of the lack of evidence or information it is rendered invalid... your theory about that shiningami being Kaguya is wrong because you cannot prove it but you just assume connections that are not even approved in manga.

 

[valandil988]

Well then it is common sense then that if the hypothesis can't be proved because of the lack of evidence or information it is rendered invalid... your theory about that shiningami being Kaguya is wrong because you cannot prove it but you just assume connections that are not even approved in manga.

Do you know what a hypothesis is?

Look it up its obvious your lacking in understanding the true meaning, I've explicitly always stated it to be a hypothesis, stop putting words in other peoples mouths. Its an idea, and nobody seemed willing to discuss it.

I can't "prove" Kaguya is the shinigami? Of course I can't but the possibility is there and it would make sense in the long run for everything to be tied together. And the fact that you seem to take offense to just discussing the possibilities of an idea just makes you look like ass.

If you want to prove my "theory" wrong then by all means prove it wrong! Link the scans that say "Kaguya is not the shinigami of the reaper death seal" and I will be happy to concede this idiotic discussion.

In other words, "STOP ASKING FOR THINGS THAT DON'T EXIST YET!"

And no a hypothesis can't be disproved by a "lack of evidence", a hypothesis exists BECAUSE of a lack of evidence. What happens to a hypothesis is that it waits around until it gets proven or dis-proven by the manga IE evidence.