[Debate] Kisame Hoshigaki vs MS Sasuke (beansandcornbread2 vs Fuhrer of Uchiha)

Beans2

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Location: Forest of death
Conditions: Both are rested and healthy. Kisame has Samehada.
Intel: Manga
Restrictions: None
Starting distance: 40 meters
Judges: Icelerate, Yolobito Swagchiha, Katsura
We will need at least 5 judges. Post if you want to be one.


I am arguing for Kisame, Fuhrer of Uchiha is debating for Sasuke.
 
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Conspirator.

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Should be a good debate-as this is a close match up. I think EMS Sasuke beats kisame, and kisame beats hebi sasuke. But MS Sasuke vs Kisame could go either way. Good luck to both of you...
 

Dannie

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Alright then, I guess I'll start this off.
I believe that the key component will be Amaterasu, but before I get to that, I will just announce that Sasuke's speed is also another factor to put into play here. Sasuke has shown to blitz Naruto and co. with relative ease, and Deidara. Sasuke also has a 4.5 in the databooks when it comes to speed. Kisame has a 4. Kisame will have a tough time trying to even hit Sasuke when he has shown to be very swift and deceptive in battle.

Now let's get to Amaterasu since my fellow opponent thinks that Kisame can simply just absorb it. If you take a look here:
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You will notice that Samehada can't even handle Itachi's Grand Fireball Technique. If I remember correctly, Amaterasu was supposed to be the hottest fire jutsu in the manga, and said to be as hot as the sun.
Databook 2 - Amaterasu:
Amaterasu

User(s): Uchiha Itachi
Rank: -
TNG: Ninjutsu (Bloodline Limit)
Range: Close
Type: Attack

Description:
"The ones reflected in these eyes turn to ash!! A black world-destroying
conflagration that scorches all on heaven and earth!!"

The Uchiha clan, originally significant as "those with the fans which manipulate
fire", traditionally specialize in Katon jutsu, but there is a legendary jutsu
unknown outside the clan. This is "Amaterasu". The appearance of these flames
are jet-black. The high temperature is like the sun, and one time touching it is
the last. It is said that this is named after the Goddess of the Sun as it
continues to burn for seven days and seven nights. However, the Mangekyou
Sharingan is necessary to activate this jutsu, and for this reason there are not
many who have learned this jutsu. Therefore, the details of this jutsu are yet
unrevealed...

Picture text:
Top: The black flames that only the owner of the Mangekyou Sharingan can control
are even able to instantly break through the side of a rock toad who breathes
fire!!
Bottom: Jiraiya, who has mastered many jutsu, did not know of the existence of
Amaterasu. What he does understand is the power of the suspicious conflagration.
If Samehada can't even eat this simple fire justu then he will be out of luck when facing Amaterasu. Kisame also, doesn't have the necessary reflexes to even dodge Amaterasu, let alone absorb it.

Kisame specializes in water, but ration can easily counter this. Sasuke has Chidori, Chidori Senbon, Chidori Spear, Chidori Sword, and Chidori Nagashi. He has about five ration attacks that could easily counter Kisame's suiton.

Sasuke also has Genjutsu, which Is another weapon that Kisame could fall victim to. Once Kisame looks into Sasuke's eyes then he could immediately be trapped in a genjutsu thus taking control of the battle. The only way for Kisame to escape genjutsu would be for Kisame to fuse with his Samehada and break him out of genjutsu.

Susano'O is a shaky argument because it is also made out of chakra. Unlike Amaterasu, the Susano'O could most likely be absorbed, although I'm not too sure. Kakashi had to use his Kamui just to warp one of Sasuke's arrows away. If Kisame cannot absorb Susano'O then Kisame will have a tough time evading the arrows.

Kisame has his water dome which covers a huge radius, but given that Kisame can last this long, he will more than likely use it in the beginning of the fight. If Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi in the water dome then he could keep Kisame from attacking him since water conducts electricity.

Now comes the Kirin argument, which I don't like to use. Given the conditions, Amaterasu is one part of the recipe for creating this jutsu. Simple katon fireballs or dragon flames help in the process. Once it activates then it is almost instant. It travels at 1/1000th of a second. Kisame would have no way to dodge this, since it would tear right through his water dome thus electrocuting him in a matter of seconds. If Itachi's Susano'O was able to block Kirin then Sasuke's Susano'O will not break so easily if Kisame tries to attack it.

Kisame's best shot would be to create his water dome in the beginning, but Sasuke could easily use Amaterasu which is much faster then creating the water dome. If Kisame were to try and charge at Sasuke then Sasuke would have the advantage due to having his Sharingan and being better at CQC.

Also, just to add. Kisame knew that Itachi was stronger than him due to having great genjutsu and Sharingan prowess. Sasuke is basically a duplicate of that reincarnation.

My conclusion: Kisame will give Sasuke some difficulties with trying to deplete his chakra and fighting in water, but Sasuke can prep for Kirin with Amaterasu or just use Amaterasu from the beginning and give Kisame hell. Genjustu, better speed, Kirin, Kinjutsu, and Amaterasu will decide Sasuke's victory.
 

Unorthodox

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Whos ever going for sasuke better wins this but good luck for both debaters
 

miromiro

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This is a pretty good match-up. Giving it to Sasuke though, high difficulty. Have a nice debate.
 

Latios

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I think Sasuke takes this with Amaterasu. Good luck to both debaters :)
 

Zexion~

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Just going to point out to fuher that he should use some links U_U Or else you're bound to lose
 

Beans2

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Well, no one else seems to want to judge so I'll just begin then.

MS Sasuke Uchiha is no doubt a very powerful shinobi. A testament to that is he defeated Danzo after a tough fight against 4 kage. However, he would lose to the Akatsuki's Kisame Hoshigaki mainly due to the fact that Kisame is a very bad matchup for him, and can counter Sasuke's entire arsenal with relative ease. I'll start with 3T Sasuke's arsenal.

Genjutsu: Sharingan

A generic Uchiha genjutsu, which is cast upon the user making eye contact with his opponent. Indeed it can prove useful, but using it is useless against Kisame. He has 3 counters to this genjutsu:
1) He doesn't look into Sasuke's eyes. Kisame, being Itachi's partner, is well aware of the Sharingan's visual prowess and knows not to make direct eye contact with an opponent who has the sharingan.
2) Merging with Samehada and closing his eyes. As we know from Kisame's battle with Bee, Kisame does not need his vision in order to do battle with his opponent, since he can sense chakra. A testament to this is that he knew Bee's exact location despite not being able to see anything through the ink.
3) In the unlikely event he gets caught in genjutsu, yet Samehada breaks him out. Samehada has been proven to be a living organism capable of absorbing, devouring, and sharing, chakra. Logically, Samehada can also disturb his owner's chakra, which would break Kisame out of genjutsu.

Chidori and chidori variants

Chidori and chidori variants such as Chidori Nagashi, chidori sharp spear, and chidori senbon are all classified as lightning-style ninjutsu. Unfortunately for Sasuke, they are all useless against Kisame, as Samehada has proven more than capable of absorbing Raiton: All Kisame has to do at this point is merge with Samehada, and Chidori will be absorbed before it can injure Kisame.

Another point to make about Chidori: my opponent seems to believe that lightning is elementally superior to water: that is not the case. While it's true that water conducts electricity, the lightning will not electrocute Kisame because when he is merged with Samehada, he can absorb chakra through his skin. The lightning in the water gets absorbed, with no harm to Kisame.

Katon: Goukakyuu no jutsu

It is almost not worth mentioning this point. As we all know, Suiton > Katon. Kisame is easily the best Suiton user in the series, and he can easily counter Sasuke's katon with Suiton: Suikōdan no Jutsu or Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha

Kirin

Kirin is not happening in this fight. It requires katons and prep time, which Kisame is not going to let fly. The only time Kirin has ever been used, it required 2 Katon: Goukakyuu no jutsus from Sasuke, two from Itachi, four giant fire dragons from Sasuke, and half a forest lit on Amaterasu. As I said earlier, Kisame uses his Suiton to easily extinguish the flames. Unless this battle takes place during a thunderstorm, Kirin is simply not an option for Sasuke.

Now we move on to Sasuke's Mangekyou arsenal.

Amaterasu/Enton

Amaterasu involves the ignition of black flames on whatever target the viewer eyes. Enton involves the manipulation of the black flames. Neither of these jutsu pose a problem to Kisame. When he is merged with Samehada, he has been shown to absorb ninjutsu, including fire-style chakra: Now, my opponent used this exact same scan to show that Samehada couldn't absorb katon, when in fact it proves the exact opposite. Samehada successfully absorbed the katon completely and fully; the fact that it 'thunked' Bee on the head afterwards shows mild irritation, not inability. In fact, my guess is that Kishi included that simply for comic relief. My opponent also says that absorbing a katon is different from absorbing Amaterasu, which is superior. The fact remains that Amaterasu is still, at its core, a chakra-based ninjutsu, and therefore can be absorbed by Samehada. The only time Samehada will not be able to absorb ninjutsu is when it is simply overwhelmed by the amount of chakra, as seen when it could not fully absorb Bee's V2 state. Amaterasu does not contain excessive levels of chakra, or else Itachi (who had low stamina/chakra levels when he was alive) could not have used it.

Susano'o

The susano'o is a massive spirit-warrior which is a physical manifestation of chakra that provides all-around defense for the user. Even this, Kisame will be able to deal with fairly easily. Kisame spits out his Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha, a gigantic dome of water that totally dwarfs MS Sasuke's Susano'o. Once Sasuke's Susano'o is surrounded by water on all sides, Kisame's victory is assured. Kisame is not getting injured by the Susano'o so long as he stays out of its range. A good 50 meters is probably enough for Kisame to stay out of harm's way. Sasuke cannot swim up after Kisame, because his Susano'o is legless, and if it comes off the ground, it will instantly flood with water, drowning him. In fact, Sasuke's susano'o is completely immobilized at this point due to the massive water pressure weighing down upon him (this is assuming the water pressure doesn't outright crush his Susano'o). Even if some restricted movement is allowed, Kisame's speed underwater > Sasuke's speed, so Sasuke is not going to get close enough to Kisame to use Susano'o against him.

Susano'o arrows

Unlike Amaterasu, Susano'o arrows are long-distance attacks that cannot be absorbed and probably Kisame's biggest threat. However, at this point Kisame is in his water dome, about 50 meters away from Sasuke. Kisame is extremely fast underwater and can dodge the arrow from this distance. Something else I'd like to point out: Kabuto, who is not particularly fast at all, managed to easily dodge a Susano'o arrow from a shorter distance than 50 meters. Why? Because he has sensory skills and can detect chakra, even without sight. Kisame is the same. When merged with Samehada, he can sense chakra through his skin, as I stated above. Kisame can know exactly where the arrow is going to hit the moment Sasuke lets the arrow fly, and be sure to avoid that spot. So even if Sasuke goes straight to Susano'o and spams arrows at the beginning of the fight, before Kisame unleashes his water dome (which is not in character for Sasuke at all), Kisame can avoid the arrows despite not being underwater, so long as he is merged with Samehada.

Now we move on to Kisame's counterattack. Kisame has two main options for defeating Sasuke. I will list them as option A and option B.

Option A

Kisame floods the battlefield with his water dome, and Sasuke is a sitting duck in his Susano'o, surrounded by water on all sides. Kisame uses Suiton: Daikōdan no Jutsu (otherwise known as Great Shark Bullet) to finish Sasuke. As I said earlier, the Susano'o is a physical manifestation of chakra. The characteristics of Great Shark Bullet is that this jutsu absorbs chakra from an opponent's ninjutsu. Kisame stated that the stronger the opponent's jutsu, the stronger the shark becomes. Therefore, Great Shark Bullet attacks the Susano'o head on, and absorbs his entire Susano'o and wrecks Sasuke. Once his Susano'o is gone, Sasuke drowns. GG

Option B

Kisame plays the waiting game. In case it isn't obvious, Kisame is a chakra monster, a testament to that being he was known as the Tailless Tailed Beast, and he spit out lakes against Team Gai when he only had 30% chakra. All Kisame needs to do is maintain his water dome, and Sasuke either goes blind from overusing Susano'o, or retracts Susano'o and drowns. Without the eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke cannot maintain MS techniques for very long, and Kisame easily outlasts him. Kisame wins.

Conclusion: Kisame wins this mid-high difficulty.
 

Transcendence

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If you need a third judge, I'd be more than happy to judge.
 

Beans2

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Katsura you are welcome to judge. In fact we need more judges still
 

adeshina365

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Edit: It seems as though I've rustled some jimmies. I'm sure beansandcornbread2 knows that I completely gutted most of his argument.

:snick:
 
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