[VS] Itachi VS Nagato

[VongolaX]

well by the context I'd say hes talking about showing his MS in the first scan and Tsukuyomi in the second.
Lets look at what happens on the first scan, it starts with Itachi saying "you are not related to the uchida. we are the true masters of the sharingan still.. your body is suitable for the eye.. but it does not contain any of our blood" then he continues "Do you know why the uchida clan is the most powerful and feared clan of all? I will show you the true powers of the Bloodline of the Sharingan masters!" this makes me think he's talking about his MS which is needed to preform Tsukyomi in the first place. And as Kakashi nor anyone else ever mentioned MS and it leads to itcahis most powerful jutsu(Tsukyomi included)that would lead me to believe that hes speaking about his MS which he assumes kakashi not being from the uchiha doesnt know about, and as no non-uchiha besides kakashi has even been shown or mentioned being able to use MS (except danzo who possessed uchiha DNA from all those eyes implanted in his arm as well as having senju inplanted in his body as well as not existing in the naruto universe until shippuden chapter 284 page 17 so im guessing he wasnt even thought of until way after those scans from the original naruto)/ Plus the fact that in the next scan shows Itachi saying "that is true only another sharingan user could challenge me... some resistance could be made to thise mage-sharingan. However this sharingan has a special eye jutsu. My illsusion jutsu "Tsukiyomi" cannot be beaten! Only a sharingan user with the same blood as me can defeat me.." And as kakashi [since danzo wasnt created yet] was the only non-uchiha to ever be shown or even mentioned possesing a sharingan or shown to be hit with Tsukyomi, and makes me think he is also including other uchiha in not being ale to break it since everyone else with it a sharingan is an uchiha. Plus i assume he used it on the uchiha durring his massacre of them and since not a single person has even been shown or stated to counter it except sauske(his 100% blood brother) that's what makes me think it has to be a sibling. Do you get what im saying?


when was it stated he would die if he did it by himself? All I remember them saying was it takes longer with less people

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1. Well, did it state that itachi used tsukyomi to kill his clansmen?
It looked like shurikenjustu during the flashback.

Also Danzo transplanted Shuishi's eyes when he activated MS (just like itachi's crow), mokuton was a means of controlling the eyes.
Danzo doesn't have uchiha DNA, but he has the sharingan.

Like in order for you to have the sages power you need to have senju blood and uchiha blood with the ocular powers.

That's why Obito stated he had the incomplete form of inzangi, otherwise he would match Obito in terms of power.

During the battle against Sasuke, Obito explains it better.

2. I didn't know how to explain nagato's use for Gedo damaging him, instead of Obito.
So I thought that can be a valid excuse.

It took a while for Obito to use it without the rinnegan...

At least you notice...

Madara did say you can't use the statue properly without being uchiha and senju with rinnegan eyes, but since he is both uchiha and senju, eventually he will be able to use Gedo mazou.

 

[Enki420]

1. Well, did it state that itachi used tsukyomi to kill his clansmen?
It looked like shurikenjustu during the flashback.

Your telling he obliterated the entire uchiha clan of sharingan users with just his shiruken jutsu? i dont buy it, thats alot of sharingan users, i think its more probable he used MS techniques and genjutsu as he is primarily a genjutsu style fighter, and he used MS enough to start going blind by the time he encounter sauske in shippuden, and since the only other time he is shown using MS is that time against kakashi it would make sense he used it in the uchiha massacre.

Also Danzo transplanted Shuishi's eyes when he activated MS (just like itachi's crow), mokuton was a means of controlling the eyes.
Danzo doesn't have uchiha DNA, but he has the sharingan.

So madara and danzo both get senju dna by implanting hashirama senju's cells into his body, but nagato and danzo dont get uchiha dna by implanting uchiha eyes(made up of uchiha cells) into themselves? that makes no sense to me if implanting senju cells works than implanting uchiha cells should to or it makes no sense.

Like in order for you to have the sages power you need to have senju blood and uchiha blood with the ocular powers.

as far as i remember the only reason given for the sage to be able to use all techniques is the rinnegan which nagato has and it lets him use any element, and as the main obstacle in learning new jutsu is ability to the necessary elemental natures as well as access to clans willing to tech their techniques(as demonstarted by the 3rd hokages ability to learn almost all techniques without rinnegan in the leaf village with just hard work and study.

2. I didn't know how to explain nagato's use for Gedo damaging him, instead of Obito.

Well maybe because he was only connected for a very short time not connect to it for years like nagato
Madara did say you can't use the statue properly without being uchiha and senju with rinnegan eyes, but since he is both uchiha and senju, eventually he will be able to use Gedo mazou.[/QUOTE]

Once again if madara gets senju blood from implanting hashirama cells into his body i dont see why Nagato who is of senju decent doesnt get uchiha blood from imlanting madaras cells in to himself. could you please explain your reasoning behind only senju cell and not uchiha cells give transfer blood/dna?

 

[VongolaX]

Your telling he obliterated the entire uchiha clan of sharingan users with just his shiruken jutsu? i dont buy it, thats alot of sharingan users, i think its more probable he used MS techniques and genjutsu as he is primarily a genjutsu style fighter, and he used MS enough to start going blind by the time he encounter sauske in shippuden, and since the only other time he is shown using MS is that time against kakashi it would make sense he used it in the uchiha massacre.



So madara and danzo both get senju dna by implanting hashirama senju's cells into his body, but nagato and danzo dont get uchiha dna by implanting uchiha eyes(made up of uchiha cells) into themselves? that makes no sense to me if implanting senju cells works than implanting uchiha cells should to or it makes no sense.


as far as i remember the only reason given for the sage to be able to use all techniques is the rinnegan which nagato has and it lets him use any element, and as the main obstacle in learning new jutsu is ability to the necessary elemental natures as well as access to clans willing to tech their techniques(as demonstarted by the 3rd hokages ability to learn almost all techniques without rinnegan in the leaf village with just hard work and study.


Well maybe because he was only connected for a very short time not connect to it for years like nagato
Madara did say you can't use the statue properly without being uchiha and senju with rinnegan eyes, but since he is both uchiha and senju, eventually he will be able to use Gedo mazou.

Once again if madara gets senju blood from implanting hashirama cells into his body i dont see why Nagato who is of senju decent doesnt get uchiha blood from imlanting madaras cells in to himself. could you please explain your reasoning behind only senju cell and not uchiha cells give transfer blood/dna?[/QUOTE]

1. Well during the Kakashi/Jiraiya fight, itachi wasn't going blind.
He was depleted of his stamina (panting).

He could of use other means of techniques.

2. If the eyes came with uchiha DNA, people like Danzo and Kakashi would of broke out of Sasuke and itachi's genjustu in no sweat.

Itachi told Kakashi that he didn't carry the blood of the Uchiha, but he was suitable for the eyes.

You don't simply get uchiha DNA through the eyes, otherwise Nagato would of been able to use any form of the sharingan and rinnegan.

3. In order to get uchiha cells, you use the same method as senju cell.

Implant the tissue...

 

[Enki420]

1. Well during the Kakashi/Jiraiya fight, itachi wasn't going blind.
He was depleted of his stamina (panting).
He could of use other means of techniques.

true.

2. If the eyes came with uchiha DNA, people like Danzo and Kakashi would of broke out of Sasuke and itachi's genjustu in no sweat.

Not if sauske/itachi are better at genjutsu than them. which as zetsu points out sauske must be better than itachi

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Itachi told Kakashi that he didn't carry the blood of the Uchiha, but he was suitable for the eyes.
You don't simply get uchiha DNA through the eyes, otherwise Nagato would of been able to use any form of the sharingan and rinnegan."
3. In order to get uchiha cells, you use the same method as senju cell. Implant the tissue...

So eyes arent human tissue or something? eyes are tissue made out of cells just like any other part of the body. my previous post covers why itachi said that(i believe he was bragging about the sharingans ultimate form [that is until they invented pain and the rinnegan] as a way to introduce the concept of MS which had never even been mentioned in the manga before). This is quite obvious to me as he had not even mentioned Tsukiyomi when he said that and he doesnt even bring Tsukiyomi up till the next page after saying a sharingan would not be enough(which again implies he had used it on sharingan users and since all other sharingan users are uchiha this implies simply having uchiha blood isnt enough to break free of Tsukiyomi as evident that only sauske has even been known to escape it when itachi used it). And nagot doesnt have access to sharingan because he never had a sharingan and the rinnegan he has arent even his eyes, they are madara's eyes, Madara is the only person even seen to be able to change from rinnegan to sharingan at will and I would attribute this to the fact madara is the only person to have awakened rinnegan from his sharingan so only he can do that, after all the six sage didnt need sharingan to use any ninjutusu as all ninjustu started with him. maybe if madara had implanted his EMS into nagato he could have awakened the rinnegan himself and been able to change it back and forth at will.

 

[Transcendence]

The underrating of Nagato here is pitiful.

Itachi will be on the defensive THE ENTIRE MATCH. He'll sense Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, before they happen (Tsukuyomi has a charge up time just like Amaterasu, so the rule that governs this logic still applies) so that only leaves Susano'o that is effective against Nagato, who can just pound away with Shinra Tensei's, Bansho Tenin+Human Path pulls and or Chibaku Tensei to which Itachi has nowhere near the destructive power to destroy.

Nagato takes this medium difficulty at most.​

 

[Penguin]

Leaning towards Nagato high diff, but an argument could be made.

 

[slimreaper]

The underrating of Nagato here is pitiful.

Itachi will be on the defensive THE ENTIRE MATCH. He'll sense Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, before they happen (Tsukuyomi has a charge up time just like Amaterasu, so the rule that governs this logic still applies) so that only leaves Susano'o that is effective against Nagato, who can just pound away with Shinra Tensei's, Bansho Tenin+Human Path pulls and or Chibaku Tensei to which Itachi has nowhere near the destructive power to destroy.

Nagato takes this medium difficulty at most.​

so because nagato is a sensor he can counter genjutsu? how did that work for cee?

 

[schmeckie]

nagato would win medium difficulty but there is a small small chance itachi could win if he got close enough to use genjutsu but with deva path that would be almost impossible

 

[genii96]

Nagato babyshakes,with CT,or he just summoms gedo and watches it decimate itachi

 

[VongolaX]

true.



Not if sauske/itachi are better at genjutsu than them. which as zetsu points out sauske must be better than itachi

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So eyes arent human tissue or something? eyes are tissue made out of cells just like any other part of the body. my previous post covers why itachi said that(i believe he was bragging about the sharingans ultimate form [that is until they invented pain and the rinnegan] as a way to introduce the concept of MS which had never even been mentioned in the manga before). This is quite obvious to me as he had not even mentioned Tsukiyomi when he said that and he doesnt even bring Tsukiyomi up till the next page after saying a sharingan would not be enough(which again implies he had used it on sharingan users and since all other sharingan users are uchiha this implies simply having uchiha blood isnt enough to break free of Tsukiyomi as evident that only sauske has even been known to escape it when itachi used it). And nagot doesnt have access to sharingan because he never had a sharingan and the rinnegan he has arent even his eyes, they are madara's eyes, Madara is the only person even seen to be able to change from rinnegan to sharingan at will and I would attribute this to the fact madara is the only person to have awakened rinnegan from his sharingan so only he can do that, after all the six sage didnt need sharingan to use any ninjutusu as all ninjustu started with him. maybe if madara had implanted his EMS into nagato he could have awakened the rinnegan himself and been able to change it back and forth at will.

1. The Sasuke better than itachi genjustu part is false:

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2. You don't get uchiha blood from eye transplant...
You have to be blood related to the uchiha clan to master its ocular powers:

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Nagato isn't blood related to the Uchiha clan, they're is not any substantial uchiha dna.

Nagato doesn't have the Uchiha blood to full master the ocular power, and switch it from EMS to Rinnegan.

 

[Enki420]

1. The Sasuke better than itachi genjustu part is false:

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You gotta keep a few things in mind: by time of that scan he's already starting to loose his vision , the fact he had just fought Ae and the other hokage single handed, it was the first time he ever attempted Tsukiyomi, and correct me if im wrong but danzo lost because of sauskes genjutsu correct?

2. You don't get uchiha blood from eye transplant...
You have to be blood related to the uchiha clan to master its ocular powers:

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Nagato isn't blood related to the Uchiha clan, they're is not any substantial uchiha dna.
Nagato doesn't have the Uchiha blood to full master the ocular power, and switch it from EMS to Rinnegan.

Id say you dont need substancial DNA to use shringan as the only 2 nonuchiha ever mentioned having sharingan both have MS and use the new abilities from it in battles, they both equaled the sharingan level as itachi in that scan mentioning how Kakashi was below him because Itachi had reached MS(sharingan mastery) while Kakashi hadn't. Also to me this scan

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implies Kabuto and orochimaru knew the sharingan could awaken the rinnegan and that the one who did would have powers greater than someone who had them implanted. Also as far as i know madara is the only person to ever naturally awaken the rinnegan so it would make sense to me that he has a more complete control over them than anyone else as they are his actual eyes, therefore he knows all their secrets and they respond to him.

 

[Gaara Of The Death]

You gotta keep a few things in mind: by time of that scan he's already starting to loose his vision , the fact he had just fought Ae and the other hokage single handed, it was the first time he ever attempted Tsukiyomi, and correct me if im wrong but danzo lost because of sauskes genjutsu correct?

Please stop are you trying to debate if Sasuke has better gen than Itachi.....smh.​

Id say you dont need substancial DNA to use shringan as the only 2 nonuchiha ever mentioned having sharingan both have MS and use the new abilities from it in battles, they both equaled the sharingan level as itachi in that scan mentioning how Kakashi was below him because Itachi had reached MS(sharingan mastery) while Kakashi hadn't. Also to me this scan

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implies Kabuto and orochimaru knew the sharingan could awaken the rinnegan and that the one who did would have powers greater than someone who had them implanted. Also as far as i know madara is the only person to ever naturally awaken the rinnegan so it would make sense to me that he has a more complete control over them than anyone else as they are his actual eyes, therefore he knows all their secrets and they respond to him.

Please stop this pointless debate, Nagato can't use EMS abilities or any sharingan ability. Honestly this debate is pointless you lost get over it.​

 

[Enki420]

Please stop are you trying to debate if Sasuke has better gen than Itachi.....smh.

Please stop this pointless debate, Nagato can't use EMS abilities or any sharingan ability. Honestly this debate is pointless you lost get over it.​

no one said he could we are talking about why he can't break out of itachi's Tsukiyomi and loses.

 

[VongolaX]

You gotta keep a few things in mind: by time of that scan he's already starting to loose his vision , the fact he had just fought Ae and the other hokage single handed, it was the first time he ever attempted Tsukiyomi, and correct me if im wrong but danzo lost because of sauskes genjutsu correct?



Id say you dont need substancial DNA to use shringan as the only 2 nonuchiha ever mentioned having sharingan both have MS and use the new abilities from it in battles, they both equaled the sharingan level as itachi in that scan mentioning how Kakashi was below him because Itachi had reached MS(sharingan mastery) while Kakashi hadn't. Also to me this scan

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implies Kabuto and orochimaru knew the sharingan could awaken the rinnegan and that the one who did would have powers greater than someone who had them implanted. Also as far as i know madara is the only person to ever naturally awaken the rinnegan so it would make sense to me that he has a more complete control over them than anyone else as they are his actual eyes, therefore he knows all their secrets and they respond to him.

1. Besides the Ay part, you just listed all the reasons why itachi is better than Sasuke.
Experience...



2. We all seen how Kakashi progress to 2 tomoe to MS.
Obito was the one who awakened it, while Shishui gave Danzovhis MS eyes.

Also Rinnegan is a completely different doujustu because sharingan, ms, and EMS is still the same. (Just new stages)

 

[Enki420]

1. Besides the Ay part, you just listed all the reasons why itachi is better than Sasuke.
Experience...

Itachi in his prime was better, by the time he fought sauske he was greatly weakened and on the verge of death from his "mysterious illness." I still think he says share my blood because you it must share both your mother's and father's bloodlines. thus literally having the same blood. I think there was reason he didn't say uchiha blood. Maybe sauske will use it to stop madara so naruto can land the final blow or something. who knows its all just speculation anyways ahahahahahah.

2. We all seen how Kakashi progress to 2 tomoe to MS.
Obito was the one who awakened it, while Shishui gave Danzo his MS eyes.

Kashi killed rin which caused both of their sharingan to awaken MS. Danzo only took one eye from shishui yet he had 10 with MS. Shishui was the only other uchiha(living in the leaf) noted to even have MS before the massacre(it is noted to be rare because of the requirements to awaking it not even sauske's parent had it and his dad was the clan leader) so where did he get those other 9 MS eyes?

Also Rinnegan is a completely different doujustu because sharingan, ms, and EMS is still the same. (Just new stages)

i dont think it is or else madara's EMS wouldnt have turned into it. After all the uchiha's founder the older son inherited his spiritual energy they just lacked the physical energy(inherited by the younger son and the senju) to fully awaken the full potential of the sages bloodline(rinnegan).Since ultimately the uchiha and senju simply two halves of the sage's clan.

 

[VongolaX]

Itachi in his prime was better, by the time he fought sauske he was greatly weakened and on the verge of death from his "mysterious illness." I still think he says share my blood because you it must share both your mother's and father's bloodlines. thus literally having the same blood. I think there was reason he didn't say uchiha blood. Maybe sauske will use it to stop madara so naruto can land the final blow or something. who knows its all just speculation anyways ahahahahahah.



Kashi killed rin which caused both of their sharingan to awaken MS. Danzo only took one eye from shishui yet he had 10 with MS. Shishui was the only other uchiha(living in the leaf) noted to even have MS before the massacre(it is noted to be rare because of the requirements to awaking it not even sauske's parent had it and his dad was the clan leader) so where did he get those other 9 MS eyes?


i dont think it is or else madara's EMS wouldnt have turned into it. After all the uchiha's founder the older son inherited his spiritual energy they just lacked the physical energy(inherited by the younger son and the senju) to fully awaken the full potential of the sages bloodline(rinnegan).Since ultimately the uchiha and senju simply two halves of the sage's clan.

Well okay...

It was because Obito witness Rin's death that cause the MS...

Sharingan never existed during the older sons period, well as far as we know.

Danzo got Shishui's MS, and he collected regular 3 tomoes from expendable eyes(non ms eyes).

That's why he would never use inzangi with Shuishi's eyes.

 

[Gold Lightning]

How is Itachi getting this much support? Are people forgetting just how powerful Nagato is, this guy had KCM Naruto and Killer Bee at their mercy.

His Rinnegan power is too much. Glad the pole shows that there are more logical people than Itach fanboys

 

[Enki420]

It was because Obito witness Rin's death that cause the MS...

I think the reason both of their MS awakened at the same time was because they both cared deeply for rin and really "felt her death"(necessary to awaken MS). makes sense and explains why obito only implanted one rinnegan

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and why nagato(who didn't naturally awaken the rinnegan) can not revert to sharingan.

Sharingan never existed during the older sons period, well as far as we know.

No but the older son was the founder of the uchiha clan so i assume overtime his rinnegan changed into the sharingan as the older brothers blood mixed with other clans during the creation of the uchiha clan, since no sister was mentioned neither brother could keep the original bloodline of the sage alive through incest(the only possible way to keep a bloodline "pure").

Danzo got Shishui's MS, and he collected regular 3 tomoes from expendable eyes(non ms eyes).
That's why he would never use inzangi with Shuishi's eyes.

I thought only MS could use inzangi.

 

[VongolaX]

I think the reason both of their MS awakened at the same time was because they both cared deeply for rin and really "felt her death"(necessary to awaken MS). makes sense and explains why obito only implanted one rinnegan

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and why nagato(who didn't naturally awaken the rinnegan) can not revert to sharingan.


No but the older son was the founder of the uchiha clan so i assume overtime his rinnegan changed into the sharingan as the older brothers blood mixed with other clans during the creation of the uchiha clan, since no sister was mentioned neither brother could keep the original bloodline of the sage alive through incest(the only possible way to keep a bloodline "pure").


I thought only MS could use inzangi.

Danzo used the 3 tomoe sharingans for Inzangi.

Just like how Tobi/Obito used the 3 tomoe sharingan for inzangi against konan.

 

[namikaze12]

Nagato mid diff