"You can't cast genjutsu on someone with the same eyes"

[Takos]

Indeed, the most ridiculous argument I hear here and there is "Sharingan users can't cast genjutsu on each other".
Let's see what the manga tells us about it:

1. Itachi (who was the author of this absurd statement, by the way) cast genjutsu on Kakashi (failed because it was a kage bunshin, not because Kakashi had Sharingan); he even commented on how he understood why the genjutsu failed when he realized it was just a clone
2. Itachi and Sasuke were fighting a genjutsu battle for a half an hour or so
3. Kakashi and Obito is another pair who put each other in genjutsu, it didn't get them anywhere only because their genjutsu was equally powerful
4. Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu on each other to escape Kabuto

Seriously, why are some folks stubborn enough to hold to this SINGLE statement which contradicts every other piece of evidence?

People need to finally realize that in-manga statements are only worth something if they are NOT CONTRADICTED by the manga. Or else I'll go with the theory that part I Sasuke > anyone without a Sharingan in the manga, because he said that Sharingan can defeat ANY form of tai, gen and ninjutsu.

 

[Shura]

You people misunderstood what Itachi said then. What he meant was that you can't cast Genjutsu on some who has your eyes. As in ''MS Itachi can't cast Genjutsu on EMS Sasuke because EMS Sasuke has Itachi's MS''.​

 

[Takos]

You people misunderstood what Itachi said then. What he meant was that you can't cast Genjutsu on some who has your eyes. As in ''MS Itachi can't cast Genjutsu on EMS Sasuke because EMS Sasuke has Itachi's MS''.​

Unless you mean the exact same eyes, then it's still false - Kakashi and Obito clearly not only tried to put each other in genjutsu, but actually managed to do so. Their illusions were fighting for quite a while. Not to mention Obito put Kakashi under the illusion of a hole in the chest and showed him illusions of himself and Rin.

 

[Shura]

Unless you mean the exact same eyes, then it's still false - Kakashi and Obito clearly not only tried to put each other in genjutsu, but actually managed to do so. Their illusions were fighting for quite a while. Not to mention Obito put Kakashi under the illusion of a hole in the chest and showed him illusions of himself and Rin.

Having the same exact eyes doesn't make you immune to Genjutsu, yes, but it can easily be broken and seen through as both Kakashi and Obito were capable of constantly breaking through each other's Genjutsu. What Itachi meant is that your Genjutsu would be ineffective against someone who has the same eyes as that person would easily see through that Genjutsu and break it. Then again, you also can look at Obito's and Kakashi's case like ''They didn't exactly have the same eyes'' even though it was the same Mangekyo, Obito had the right eye while Kakashi had the left eye. Both a bit different than the other.​

 

[Oblivionx]

it simply means that you won't win a battle with genjutsu if you and your opponent have same i.e MS (in case of itachi) eyes....! just like obito and kakashi tied in genjutsu so every MS user will tie and it will be useless genjutsu battle....!

 

[AlphaScythian]

3rd argument is completely wrong.
Obito used genjutsu, it was clear genjutsu as he turned himself into rin, kakashi merely dispelled it once he got aware of it.
It doesnt mean their genjutsu is equally powerful.

But i agree, itachi was too superficial with this statement, and genjutsu battle has place among uchihas.

 

[Takos]

Having the same exact eyes doesn't make you immune to Genjutsu, yes, but it can easily be broken and seen through as both Kakashi and Obito were capable of constantly breaking through each other's Genjutsu. What Itachi meant is that your Genjutsu would be ineffective against someone who has the same eyes as that person would easily see through that Genjutsu and break it. Then again, you also can look at Obito's and Kakashi's case like ''They didn't exactly have the same eyes'' even though it was the same Mangekyo, Obito had the right eye while Kakashi had the left eye. Both a bit different than the other.​

That's quite a misinterpretation to me. Itachi mentioned only casting genjutsu, not defeating someone with it.
Not to mention Kakashi would ought to overcome Tsukyomi if that was the case. And Itachi should not bother with casting a regular genjutsu on Kakashi, as he did in part 2. Finally, still no suitable explanation of Itachi and Sasuke managing to cast genjutsu on each other to free themselves from Kabuto.

This statement seems rather to be one of many inaccurate manga statements, just like:
Sasuke: Sharingan can defeat any tai, gen and ninjutsu.
Zabuza: Even if you (Kakashi) defeat me, you can't win against Haku.
Itachi: Only an Uchiha can defeat me (I guess Hashirama or Nagato don't stand a chance)
and, among these, our favorite line finds its place:
Itachi: You can't cast genjutsu on someone with the same eyes.

There's no reason to believe it's a different matter with this particular sentence.

3rd argument is completely wrong.
Obito used genjutsu, it was clear genjutsu as he turned himself into rin, kakashi merely dispelled it once he got aware of it.
It doesnt mean their genjutsu is equally powerful.

I'm talking about their later genjutsu struggle. The genjutsu, cast by both of them, obviously did work, as we could clearly see the illusions fighting against each other. Their genjutsu skirmish didn't get any of them anywhere not because they couldn't cast it on each other, but because they couldn't overcome each other's illusion with their own. A MAJOR difference.

 

[Xāvî1]

You people misunderstood what Itachi said then. What he meant was that you can't cast Genjutsu on some who has your eyes. As in ''MS Itachi can't cast Genjutsu on EMS Sasuke because EMS Sasuke has Itachi's MS''.​

Scans pls....

OT: It is possilble to cast genjutsu on any one.. even among uchihas.. unless you are blocking your vision, like what kabuto did while he was in DSM.

 

[AlphaScythian]

I'm talking about their later genjutsu struggle. The genjutsu, cast by both of them, obviously did work, as we could clearly see the illusions fighting against each other. Their genjutsu skirmish didn't get any of them anywhere not because they couldn't cast it on each other, but because they couldn't overcome each other's illusion with their own. A MAJOR difference.

Well this is exactly what itachi was talking about. Both users can cast genjutsu but its hard for any1 of them to win since they both are aware of it and same eyes is usually same skill level.

Still you're going too far stating kakashi is on par with Obito in genjutsu.
Could he control kage level perfect jin or kurama?
It may even been eye link that saved kakashi from defeat.

 

[-Spoiler-]

You people misunderstood what Itachi said then. What he meant was that you can't cast Genjutsu on some who has your eyes. As in ''MS Itachi can't cast Genjutsu on EMS Sasuke because EMS Sasuke has Itachi's MS''.​

Didn't that happen anyway in the cave.

 

[Prince Charles]

Itachi probably meant it would be useless in the end since both users would know that their in a genjutsu.

 

[Takos]

Well this is exactly what itachi was talking about. Both users can cast genjutsu but its hard for any1 of them to win since they both are aware of it and same eyes is usually same skill level.

Still you're going to far stating kakashi is on par with Obito in genjutsu.

How is that?
Let's assume Kakashi has genjutsu way inferior to Obito's. Let's say that the only advantage Kakashi has over any other genjutsu user of his level against Obito is that he can see through Obito's illusions - but what good is it if he can't defend himself against it?
Obito casts his own genjutsu and what could Kakashi do to defend himself?
1. Dispel it - maybe.
2. Counter it with his own genjutsu, but it would need to be as powerful - that's not an option if there's a major difference between Kakashi's and Obito's illusions.
Yet, in the manga it was clearly shown that Kakashi did not dispel Obito's genjutsu. He used his own genjutsu to counter it and neither could defeat the other. This is a proof of their genjutsu being equal.

Could he control kage level perfect jin or kurama?

I'll be honest here - I don't know. Out of all three major ninja disciplines genjutsu is the one we know the least about. We don't know if genjutsu used to control a tailed beast is even applicable against human opponents. Just like in terms of ninjutsu A>B>C logic doesn't follow, the same may very well go for ninjutsu.
Maybe Kakashi can do so, maybe not. We really don't know. It's been said that MS allows you to cast genjutsu on tailed beasts, but it wasn't said if any MS user can do it or if it's similar to MS techniques - some can use them, some can use others.

It may even been eye link that saved kakashi from defeat.

Such an assumption borders on stupidity, I'm afraid. There's absolutely nothing whatsoever to indicate their eye link is anything more than seeing visions from time to time.

 

[AlphaScythian]

^^^GEEZ. Do you have to spam so much?
Sasuke with 3T survived Tsukuyomi, but even with EMS his genjutsu is still inferior to itachi's.
In fact to resist a strong genjutsu one doesnt have to posses same skill, with sharingan it's already easy as you know its a genjutsu from the start.

With this evidence its OK for kakashi to resist genjutsu but he can only dream of having genjutsu power of Obito.

Yeah casting genjutsu on your own eye that is linked to you and succeed that would truly be stupid.

 

[Takos]

^^^GEEZ. Do you have to spam so much?
Sasuke with 3T survived Tsukuyomi, but even with EMS his genjutsu is still inferior to itachi's.
In fact to resist a strong genjutsu one doesnt have to posses same skill, with sharingan it's already easy as you know its a genjutsu from the start.

With this evidence its OK for kakashi to resist genjutsu but he can only dream of having genjutsu power of Obito.

Yeah casting genjutsu on your own eye that is linked to you and succeed that would truly be stupid.

Itachi VS Sasuke doesn't count, because Itachi never meant to win against Sasuke.
So, there is no "evidence".
Unless you dispel, there is no way you can counter genjutsu with a weaker genjutsu. That's common logic.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Itachi VS Sasuke doesn't count, because Itachi never meant to win against Sasuke.
So, there is no "evidence".

There is no evidence of the opposite. Genjutsu by itself doesnt kill anyone.
Sasuke only broke free when CM was used, and to get kakashi into genjutsu itachi had to use tsukuyomi.
I dont think itachi planned having huge backlash that nearly got him killed b4 he had orochimaru extracted.

Unless you dispel, there is no way you can counter genjutsu with a weaker genjutsu. That's common logic.

Yeah, yeah sure. Genjutsu that sasuke caught danzo with had no effect on him. He was ablaze with amaterasu but did he scream in pain?
Thats not common logic. Sharingan provides with great resistance to ocular genjutsu and resistance has nothing to do with genjutsu skill.

 

[Takos]

There is no evidence of the opposite. Genjutsu by itself doesnt kill anyone.
Sasuke only broke free when CM was used, and to get kakashi into genjutsu itachi had to use tsukuyomi.
I dont think itachi planned having huge backlash that nearly got him killed b4 he had orochimaru extracted.
Yeah, yeah sure. Genjutsu that sasuke caught danzo with had no effect on him. He was ablaze with amaterasu but did he scream in pain?
Thats not common logic. Sharingan provides with great resistance to ocular genjutsu and resistance has nothing to do with genjutsu skill.

The fact genjutsu didn't work on Danzo is not because he was a Sharingan user but because Sasuke's genjutsu, frankly, sucked balls.
When you look at their fight you will realize Sasuke managed to cast a genjutsu on Danzo (a very weak one, but successfully used for deception) in order to make him believe he still has one Sharingan for Izanagi left.
So, a fight against Danzo only proves my point - you CAN successfully cast a genjutsu on another Sharingan user.

Breaking Tsukyomi, even if Itachi didn't plan it, has nothing to do with it. Breaking is equal to dispelling. As I have already pointed out, Kakashi didn't dispel Obito's genjutsu, he countered it with his own. It would be simply a genjutsu resistance feat if Kakashi just dispelled/broke Obito's genjutsu, but he didn't.
Neither of them could dispel each other genjutsu, emphasized by the fact Kakashi had to make a deal with Obito for them both to dispel their genjutsu and start fighting with other methods.

To sum up:
Sasuke being able to break Tsukyomi doesn't mean he has genjutsu equal to Itachi, because he didn't use genjutsu to defend against Tsukyomi.
Kakashi being able to reach a deadlock with Obito in genjutsu fight is a whole different thing, because Kakashi used his own genjutsu to try to overcome Obito's which ended in a draw.

If Sasuke used his own genjutsu to counter Tsukyomi, yes, I would (and everyone else should) freely admit that Sasuke has genjutsu on Itachi's level.

Is it clear now?

 

[TrollingSage]

You people misunderstood what Itachi said then. What he meant was that you can't cast Genjutsu on some who has your eyes. As in ''MS Itachi can't cast Genjutsu on EMS Sasuke because EMS Sasuke has Itachi's MS''.​

Nah. Obito cast a genjutsu on Kakashi who has his eyes. Itachi's statement isn't literal.
What he meant was it isn't practical to try to defeat a sharingan user with genjutsu since sharingan provides high resistance to occular genjutsu to the user.

 

[AlphaScythian]

The fact genjutsu didn't work on Danzo is not because he was a Sharingan user but because Sasuke's genjutsu, frankly, sucked balls.
When you look at their fight you will realize Sasuke managed to cast a genjutsu on Danzo (a very weak one, but successfully used for deception) in order to make him believe he still has one Sharingan for Izanagi left.
So, a fight against Danzo only proves my point - you CAN successfully cast a genjutsu on another Sharingan user.

It proves my point. When user is aware of genjutsu he can overcome it's effects by self control alone, when danzo wasnt aware of it he payed the price. Danzo wasnt using sharingan either at that time, it was covered whole fight U_U

Breaking Tsukyomi, even if Itachi didn't plan it, has nothing to do with it. Breaking is equal to dispelling. As I have already pointed out, Kakashi didn't dispel Obito's genjutsu, he countered it with his own. It would be simply a genjutsu resistance feat if Kakashi just dispelled/broke Obito's genjutsu, but he didn't.
Neither of them could dispel each other genjutsu, emphasized by the fact Kakashi had to make a deal with Obito for them both to dispel their genjutsu and start fighting with other methods.

If the enemy isnt restricting your movements then braking genjutsu once you aware of it is piece of cake. Orochimaru was going for it, danzo did it. So could kakashi and obito but they just decided to play a while then called it off. Not being affected by genjutsu is resistance proof by its own U_U

To sum up:
Sasuke being able to break Tsukyomi doesn't mean he has genjutsu equal to Itachi, because he didn't use genjutsu to defend against Tsukyomi.
Kakashi being able to reach a deadlock with Obito in genjutsu fight is a whole different thing, because Kakashi used his own genjutsu to try to overcome Obito's which ended in a draw.

If Sasuke used his own genjutsu to counter Tsukyomi, yes, I would (and everyone else should) freely admit that Sasuke has genjutsu on Itachi's level.
Is it clear now?

What is this BS? You think sasuke wasnt using genjutsu? Oh but he was

 

[Takos]

It proves my point. When user is aware of genjutsu he can overcome it's effects by self control alone, when danzo wasnt aware of it he payed the price. Danzo wasnt using sharingan either at that time, it was covered whole fight U_U

Except he had a bunch of other Sharingans.

If the enemy isnt restricting your movements then braking genjutsu once you aware of it is piece of cake. Orochimaru was going for it, danzo did it. So could kakashi and obito but they just decided to play a while then called it off. Not being affected by genjutsu is resistance proof by its own U_U

Bolded makes no sense whatsoever. They only decided to cancel it when they saw they aren't getting anywhere with it. They WERE affected by it, or else the whole genjutsu war would not take place at all.

What is this BS? You think sasuke wasnt using genjutsu? Oh but he was

Are you telling me Sasuke used genjutsu to break Tsukyomi? No, sir, he did it with willpower. That was a genjutsu resistance feat.
In case of Kakashi, that was a genjutsu feat because he cast genjutsu on Obito just like Obito cast genjutsu on Kakashi. That's what I'm talking about. U_U

But I think I've said what I wanted in the clearest way I am capable of, so we might as well stop it here before someone gets hurt.

 

[Champ]

I remember what chapter Itachi said that, but do you have the viz scan to be clear.