(Solo) vs (DrProof) | Hebi Sasuke vs Kimimaro | Debate

[DrProof]

Hebi Sasuke vs Kimimaro Kaguya


This will be a debate against DrProof, and Solo , Kimimaro will be represented by yours truly (DrProof) while as Hebi Sasuke will be represented by the Legendary Solo.

Location:
Gaara vs Kimimaro

Intel:
Manga Knowledge

Rules
Manga Proof Only
Must Not Double-Post
Do not post, If You Aren't A Judge

Solo you may have the first move (if you wish).


Judges
★AncientCenturion
Penguin.
Sir Blades of Chaos


This Debate Will End In Three Days.
​

This spot is held for restrictions.

Restrictions: Manda.

 

[Solo]

This spot is held for restrictions.

Restrictions: Manda.

Is that all you're restricting? If so, my first post should be up in about an hour or two.


Edit: I'm assuming this is a "Healthy" Kimimaro?

 

[DrProof]

Is that all you're restricting? If so, my first post should be up in about an hour or two.


Edit: I'm assuming this is a "Healthy" Kimimaro?

Correct. Kirin is restricted to, I just don't see anything else need-worthy to restrict to be honest.

 

[Solo]

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Opening

Kimimaro is very underrated throughout NarutoBase, but I know full well what he's capable of. I don't expect to underestimate him.. much. Anyway, Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai makes

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Kimimaro's greatest feat is that his

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. See, this wouldn't be the first time someone over hyped their own Kekkei Genkai. Example, Haku. He believe the human eye couldn't catch him. Until Sasuke awoken the Sharingan. Since Kimimaro is healthy, we can boost up his skill only by a little. Nothing game changing, because

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.

Kimimaro can be broken down into 4 parts Speed, Offense, DefenseChidori/Defense

Speed
Now, how fast is Kimimaro? I would say he's around Part 1 Base Lee. While Lee was drunk,

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Kimimaro had to take a more defensive style to deal with Rock Lee's speed. As Gaara pointed out,

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Part 1 Sasuke's Max speed was equal to Rock Lee's base speed. Here is where it get tricky:
Healthy Kimimaro = Base Rock Lee at best.
Part 1 Kyuubi Naruto speed ≥ Part 1 Base Lee Speed
3-Tomoe Sasuke's reflexes > Part 1 Kyuubi Naruto's Speed

If we can establish that the four scenarios above are greater than Kimimaro's speed.

Sasuke reflexes is AMAZING. If Sasuke does go into CQC, he has the

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. Even going at high speeds Sasuke was able to dodge the

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. Hitting and dodge Kimimaro's random spikes won't come as THAT much of a surprise for Sasuke.

Shippuden Sasuke is on an entirely different scale. Kimimaro couldn't blitz a fodder Samurai, I HIGHLY doubt he can keep up with Speedsuke.

On top of that, Kimimaro's Cursed Mark makes him

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That is NOT, I repeat is NOT a good thing for someone like Sasuke.

Offense
At the beginning of the fight, Kimimaro might have Sasuke on the ropes because of his unorthodox style. A few scratches here and there, but nothing life threatening. The Sharingan will not be surprise by Kimimaro's style much. We may bring up Killer Bee was striking Sasuke with multiple weapons, as Kimimaro's doesn't exactly strike you with multiple weapons. He pretty much just bring up random bone spikes when you hit. Two moves are a threat to Sasuke:

Digital Shrapnel
They're pretty quick, and could lead into intense setups by Kimi.

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That's no small feat, as they could potentially kill Sasuke. Probably stronger than the average steel.

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If Kimimaro tries to keep Sasuke at bay with this, a simple Fireball jutsu bait should allow Sasuke time to get in. Possibly for a fatal attack.

Bracken Dance
Kimimaro's key card in this fight. Seeing as it could change the field in an instance. A Jutsu I believe the Sharingan would be able to see. Unless the Jutsu doesn't use chakra, there is no reason Sasuke would not see this move coming. We know the

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. Plus, it's not really that fast of a tech. Seeing as

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with it being inches from Rock Lee. Two ways I can see Sasuke escaping:
1. Out run it.
2. Orochimaru Style: Substitution Jutsu
3. Force him to fly above them with the CM. They don't seem to be taller than the trees. Sasuke can probably jump above a tree, tbh.

Outside those two attacks, I don't see much he can do.


Genjutsu
I honestly do not see Kimimaro breaking out of Genjutsu. Possibly he can use his Cursed Mark to break out Genjutsu once. What will he do when Sasuke perform yet another Genjutsu in his Cursed Mark form? Interested to see your counter to Genjutsu.

Chidori vs Defense
I believe Chidori could penetrate Kimimaro's bones. Simple as that, but to explain that I need to start with his Chidori Blade.

Chidori Blade/Chakra Blade
Kimimaro, he was stopped by a fodder Samurai. In the scan I'm going to show(

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), you can see the that FODDER Samurai manages to actually pierce through his bone. At which cost, it look as if the Samurai's blade was cracked a bit. Chakra Blades are probably as strong as the person's chakra. Unless you put Sasuke on par with fodder Ninjas in terms of Chakra/Lightning infused blades, then yeah.

How how is a lightning infused weapon based how much chakra a person put into it?

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I mean, it did, but it didn't. His Chidori Sword Vs Yamato's Kunai,

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.

Chidori
With this I believe Sasuke could cut through Kimimaro's Bones. With Chidori being even stronger than just than a Lightning infuse weapon, Sasuke could make the final blow to kill Kimimaro without a doubt. Sharingan would allow Sasuke to strike at the perfect moment. Now, a few advance debaters(I know DrProof is one of them) like to believe Kimi has this "ability to heal". I don't think he has ability to heal, I don't get how he was sick if he could. Lets say he can. So if Sasuke is unable to hit a vital point with his Chidori, Sasuke could still leave his body somewhat paralyzed.


Closing
Indeed, Kimimaro isn't easy to beat, but before a man with blessed eyes Kimi is just fodder. Sasuke has three things over Kimimaro Speed, Reflexes, and Versatility. Why reflexes and versatility? First, Sharingan gives him the edge. I'm not sleeping on Kimimaro's reflexes, but it's no Sharingan. Second, Sasuke can perform all types of feints to give him the edge. From Fire Jutsu to Shuriken from different ranges. The one and only "true" threat to Sasuke is the Bone Forest. I don't see how he can get around Genjutsu either, but I'm sure DrProof took this battle knowing a around. Interested to see what he has to say. Your move, Proof

I didn't proofread, so I probably got errors here and there. Oh.. I guess this took longer than 2 hours. Screw it, ALL HAIL LORD SASUKE!!!

Kimimaro being healthy/sick doesn't really matter within this match-up. Kirin wouldn't be able to be prepped. Kirin is unrestricted Solo. Have at it.

OMG.. That.. that's overkill.

I am expecting a jaw dropping post. You better not disappoint me.

 

[DrProof]

I appreciate the inaccurate analysis you've just done for Kimimaro, and Sasuke. Pretty much saved me the trouble, now let's skip the games, and get right to it. Shall we?

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Kimimaro vs Sasuke | Stats

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Seems you've taken it upon yourself to post fan-fiction-related stats. Smart move trying to move this battle more-so to your advantage, but I'm going to clear up your "Speed Analysis" regarding Kimimaro (and more).

Databook 1: Pt 1. Naruto
Databook 2: Pt 2. Naruto
Databook 3: War-Arc

Now I present you the stats for Kimimaro:

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Now Hebi Sasuke's:

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As you can see Kimimaro clearly triumphs over Hebi Sasuke in multiple categories; Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Speed, and Stamina. Being equal with Sasuke in the categories; Strength, and Hand Seals. As you can see your "Analysis" is very inaccurate regarding both Kimimaro, as well as the pawns (KN1 Naruto, and Drunken Lee).

Kimimaro simply overpowers Sasuke, something we all can see.

Passive-Regenerative Capabilities; Top Tier

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Key

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This is the key so that you may follow the wording within this thread:

Saisei no Jutsu = Regeneration (Romaji interpretation/Passive Self-Healing)

Shikotsumyaku = Dead Bone Pulse (Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai)​

​

​

Kimimaro Kaguya is rather underestimated when measuring his capabilities on this forum, the usual "Top Three Regenerators" consist of Hashirama, Tsunade, and Base Kabuto; the list should be the following:


1. Current Kabuto 2. Kimimaro 3. Hashirama/Tsunade


The placement, and final conclusion of Kimimaro's positioning will be evaluated by showing Kimimaro already possesses the capabilities that of Hashirama, Tsunade, and Base Kabuto, while highlighting the extra capabilities he possesses regarding his Saisei no Jutsu.​

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The Case Of Healing Without Hand Seals

Spoiler

The first requirement to become noteworthy within the "Top Three Regenerators" is Self-Healing without Hand Seals, something only very few (less than four I believe) can accomplish. This alone puts any Shinobi capable of Self-Healing via no Hand Seals around the Top 5 Medical/Healing Shinobi.

Hashirama/Tsunade both possess the capability of Self-Healing without Hand Seals:

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Kabuto Yakushi as well possesses the capaibilities to regenerate without Hand Seals via focusing chakra into the predicted spot targeted by the enemies technique, which on contact begins healing immediately:

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Kimimaro Kaguya also possesses the capability to regenerate without Hand Seals passively (meaning no previous technique has to be activated, as well Kimimaro doesn't have to directly focus on regenerating; it comes naturally):

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Kimimaro seemingly possesses Requirement #1: Self-Healing Without Hand Seals, so I'll now move on to Requirement #2.​

The Case Of Chakra Depletion/Hayflick Limit​

Spoiler

Chakra depletion is by far one of the greatest disadvantages of Self-Healing, to be classified as "Top Three" material for Self-Healing one must possess one of the two requirements:

• Having Senju/Biju/Huge chakra levels.
• Possessing a Saisei no Jutsu that requires little, to no chakra.

Kabuto Yakushi is dropped from the Top Three due to this hindrance alone; as Base Kabuto does not possess Senju/Biju chakra levels, along with the taxing of his own Self-Healing Technique; In'yu Shometsu:

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Tsunade's case is quite different as she possesses both requirements, the downfall of her technique however, is the Hayflick Limit; the number of times a cell can split into a number of divisions:

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This is a great disadvantage toward Tsunade herself as the ultimate conclusion is death. Not only that, but the limit (time wise), in which she can use this Self-Healing Technique isn't lengthy at all, noticing the side effects soon after activation:

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Kimimaro possesses both requirements; possessing Senju/Biju/Huge chakra levels (he took on thousands of KN Clones, Drunk Lee, and Gaara all while being sick, and on the verge of death; this distinctively shows his huge chakra levels) , as well having a Saisei no Jutsu in which requires little, to no chakra to Self-Heal himself.

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The way I've come to the conclusion that Kimimaro's Self-Healing isn't chakra taxing as Tsunade/Kabuto's Saisei no Jutsu are is due to the innate capability to continue passively regenerating while Orochimaru's Juinjutsu was active:

The seal forcefully absorbs a user's chakra while giving Orochimaru's own senjutsu chakra into the user's body in return, granting enhancements comparable to those of Sage Mode. The user must also possess an above-average chakra capacity in order to wield the cursed seal's power. The key differences between the sage mode and a cursed seal are that the latter's users have no control over natural energy, thus senjutsu chakra in itself. The forced transformation seemingly eats away at the user's chakra to sustain its state, as Anko noted, with possibly fatal consequences.

With Kimimaro fulfilling Requirements #1, and #2 I'll move on to the feats, which put Kimimaro above Self-Healing Users such as; Hashirama, Tsunade, and Base Kabuto.​

The Case Of Kimimaro's Superiority Within Self-Healing​

Spoiler

This is what puts Kimimaro above Hashirama, Tsunade, and Base Kabuto when referring to Self-Healing; added with the facts that Kimimaro can passively Regenerate without Hand Seals, as well having huge chakra levels, and a less taxing Saisei no Jutsu. Kimimaro is the superior in Self-Healing due to:

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Kimimaro's Kekkei Genkai allows him to control not only the bones within his body, but allows him to control the reforming of destroyed cells. This is similar to that of Tsunade's technique, but without the taxing death toll:

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However, it's not only the fact that Kimimaro possesses the capabilities to control his cellular reproduction, but the speed in which he can create his bones/cells. Many Self-Healing Users claim their Saisei no Jutsu are "Instant" (when I say instant I mean that the injury is healed that very second it is caused) however, it is often never shown. Tsunade is the only Shinobi in which has shown near "Instant" healing via the use of Byakugo no Jutsu:

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The flaw within Byakugo no Jutsu is that it still has the disadvantage causing death to the user if used for a length period, similar to Tsunade's Sozo Saisei; The Hayflick Limit:

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Anyways, back to Kimimaro. Kimimaro is the only Self-Healer in which has shown the capability to regenerate instantaneously from an injury/causality:

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Kimimaro in the previously shown panel is seen removing his spine, this is a crucial sign in which shows he can regenerate instantaneously. To realize why this is, one must know what the spine's role is within the human body:

The spinal cord is made up of millions of nerve cells that send projections up and down the cord and out into other parts of the body. The information that allows us to sit, run, go to the toilet and breathe travels along these projections, called nerves.

When the spinal cord is injured, the initial trauma causes cell damage and destruction, and triggers a cascade of events that spread around the injury site affecting a number of different types of cells. Axons are crushed and torn, and oligonucleotide, the nerve cells that make up the insulating myelitis sheath around axons, begin to die. Exposed axons degenerate, the connection between neurons is disrupted and the flow of information between the brain and the spinal cord is blocked.

The body cannot replace cells lost when the spinal cord is injured, and its function becomes impaired permanently.Patients may end up with severe movement and sensation disabilities. They will generally be paralyzed and without sensation from the level of the injury downwards.

Pay heavy attention to every underlined portion of the quote previously given; more so "The body cannot replace cells lost when the spinal cord is injured, and its function becomes impaired permanently.". This backs up the statement of which Kimimaro iterated "he can control the reformation of his destroyed cells".

To furthermore prove Kimimaro's regeneration was instant in the case of replacing his spine, if his spine wasn't replaced once it came out of placement when he pulled it out, he would have become crippled, and would have fallen from his standing stature; the body is able to stand erect due to the spinal cord.

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​

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Thus, the new list regarding "Top Three Regenerators" should consist of the following:


1. Current Kabuto
2. Kimimaro
3. Hashirama/Tsunade
​

Unorthodox

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When you think about it.. The Sharingan's true weakness is Unorthodox fighting styles, combined with users ultimately faster than the Sharingan wielder. The Sharingan's 3rd-Tomoe Ability:

As the Sharingan evolves, gaining more tomoe, this ability extends to being able to track fast-moving objects before finally giving some amount of predictive capabilities to the user, allowing them to see the image of an attacker's next move from the slightest muscle tension in their body and counter-attack or dodge without any wasted movement. However, even though the user may be able to see an attack or know it is coming, their body may not always have time to react.

Take heed of the underlined context: However, even though the user may be able to see an attack or know it is coming, their body may not always have time to react.

Now, what exactly prevents a Sharingan user the inability to react to a physical assault? Two things:

Unorthodox Fighting-Styles
Faster Opponents

Examples:

(Faster)Lee vs Sasuke:

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(Unorthodox)KN1 vs Sasuke:

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-

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(Both)Killer Bee vs Sasuke:

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The thing is within every fight Sasuke has been outplayed with the Sharingan the opponent was either Faster, Unorthodox, or Both. That's the Sharingan's weakness the inability to allow the user's body to act before initial impact.

Kimimaro presents both the Speed, and an Unorthodox Fighting-Style, this ensures the Sharingan's unreliability within this match-up CQC-wise. Kimimaro possessing the capability to grow near-infinite amount of bones within his body, and protrude them out of his body (calling them dances) as a use of Taijutsu the capabilities of dodging, or even keeping up with his Unorthodox Fighting-Style is near impossible.

Kimimaro was even seen to have caught Lee (who is faster than Hebi Sasuke), multiple times.

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The Sharingan crumbles at the hands of Kimimaro.

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From start to finish Kimimaro will leave no movements wasted. At the beginning of the confrontation Kimimaro would take to the offensive entering CQC with Hebi Sasuke giving him the immediate advantage in the match-up. The quick CQC confrontation would allow Kimimaro to keep Sasuke not only on his toes, as well leaving major injuries as Sasuke would be overwhelmed by Raw Speed, and Unorthodox Taijutsu.

Potentially, I can see Kimimaro ending this in Base-Mode via Tessenka no Mai: Tsuru + Tessenka no Mai: Tsuru tactics.

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[DrProof]

Proof, I just want to point out you picked Chuunin Exam Sasuke's stats, Hebi Sasuke's are third set.

Wrong, bro.

Databook 1 = Pt 1 Sasuke
Databook 2 = Early Pt 2. & Hebi Sasuke
Databook 3 = MS/EMS Sasuke

Actually you may be right. Meh whatever. The Speed analysis still stands. Plus, I'm tired good night.

 

[AGoodBoy]

The second databook was released in April '05 and the first timeskip volume wasn't released until June '05. Plus, there's no mention of any character after Kakashi Gaiden because:

Databook 1: Covers from the start of the original series up until the Chuunin Exams.
Databook 2: Covers from the Chuunin Exams until the end of Kakashi Gaiden.
Databook 3: Covers from the start of the timeskip until the end of the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight.

Here's the cover of the second:

Spoiler

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Keep in mind that the third databook was released 5/6 years ago.

Doesn't really matter. Kimi's stats still basically trump his. Sasuke's ninjutsu pushes him 1 point ahead, but that's not that important for a few reasons.

Anyway, proof you didn't even counter his genjutsu which he asked you to counter.
...You better not lose with kimimaro...

 

[Solo]

Spoiler

I appreciate the inaccurate analysis you've just done for Kimimaro, and Sasuke. Pretty much saved me the trouble, now let's skip the games, and get right to it. Shall we?

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Kimimaro vs Sasuke | Stats

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Seems you've taken it upon yourself to post fan-fiction-related stats. Smart move trying to move this battle more-so to your advantage, but I'm going to clear up your "Speed Analysis" regarding Kimimaro (and more).

Databook 1: Pt 1. Naruto
Databook 2: Pt 2. Naruto
Databook 3: War-Arc

Now I present you the stats for Kimimaro:

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Now Hebi Sasuke's:

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As you can see Kimimaro clearly triumphs over Hebi Sasuke in multiple categories; Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Intelligence, Speed, and Stamina. Being equal with Sasuke in the categories; Strength, and Hand Seals. As you can see your "Analysis" is very inaccurate regarding both Kimimaro, as well as the pawns (KN1 Naruto, and Drunken Lee).

Kimimaro simply overpowers Sasuke, something we all can see.

Pretty sure you know this is wrong. I would have preferred to correct you, but other have. Lets continue, shall we?

Kimimaro's Healing Ability
Allow to me quote myself here:

Now, a few advance debaters(I know DrProof is one of them) like to believe Kimi has this "ability to heal". I don't think he has ability to heal, I don't get how he was sick if he could. Lets say he can. So if Sasuke is unable to hit a vital point with his Chidori, Sasuke could still leave his body somewhat paralyzed.

I'm going to go a bit further into this so called Healing Abilities. First, In one scan it shows that Kimimaro had to put an extra layer of bones himself. Does this sound like something a person who heal himself would say?

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Kishi has shown when a character have healing abilities, he allows a character to fight a bit more reckless:
1.

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2.

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He's a puppet which he can easily repair himself.
3.

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4.

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5.

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6.

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7. Orochimaru's after being hit.

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and

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.


Notice what these non-pain feelers and healers have in common? They don't care about being hit. Look at their attitude about being wounded. Kimimaro went out of his way to dodge attacks by Lee,

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, dodging attack by Gaara.

When you seen his skin recovering, that's just the effects of his jutsu/Kekkei Genkai. When an Uchiha's eyes bleed due to the Mangekyo Sharingan, does that mean they're sick? When an Uchiha perfom a fire jutsu, their mouths does not burn. Maybe they are immune to fire? No, they're not. If Kimimaro could heal himself, he wouldn't be sick/dying.

Sharingan

When you think about it.. The Sharingan's true weakness is Unorthodox fighting styles, combined with users ultimately faster than the Sharingan wielder. The Sharingan's 3rd-Tomoe Ability:

Is it really? Kimimaro reminds more of a porcupine who could make his quills harder than steel, tbh. No matter how fast you may be, you can't hit someone in the stomach with giant spike sticking out of it.

However, even though the user may be able to see an attack or know it is coming, their body may not always have time to react.

This would apply if Sasuke wasn't fast enough to react, but he is. Part 1 Base Lee is not faster than Shippuden Sasuke.

Now, what exactly prevents a Sharingan user the inability to react to a physical assault? Two things:

Unorthodox Fighting-Styles
Faster Opponents

Examples:

(Faster)Lee vs Sasuke: [X]

(Unorthodox)KN1 vs Sasuke: [X] - [X]

(Both)Killer Bee vs Sasuke: [X]

You listed some good example, but those are just facts to show Sasuke(I can't believe I'm ****ing saying this) isn't perfect.

Example 1 - Chunin Exam Sasuke trains for a month and obtain the same speed Rock Lee.

Example 2 - Sasuke has good memory on how his opponent moves.

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and

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. Sasuke had no problem reacting to Killer Bee's Chakra Cloak in midair.

Example 3 - The Sharingan is just unable to read multiple attacks at once.
1.

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2.

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3. Your example with Killer Bee.
Kimimaro does not attack from multiple directions. Most of the bones within his chest is similar to that of a being a porcupine. Which is basically defense. Most of the time when Kimimaro caught Lee was because Lee rushed at him.

From start to finish Kimimaro will leave no movements wasted. At the beginning of the confrontation Kimimaro would take to the offensive entering CQC with Hebi Sasuke giving him the immediate advantage in the match-up. The quick CQC confrontation would allow Kimimaro to keep Sasuke not only on his toes, as well leaving major injuries as Sasuke would be overwhelmed by Raw Speed, and Unorthodox Taijutsu.

Come now, DrProof. I told you Hebi Sasuke was too much from the beginning. He still lack the ability to deal with Genjutsu.

 

[Solo]

I was tired as hell last night, I didn't want Solo to feel I abandoned this thread.
DB Scans = Manga Scans from my clear acknowledgement get over it.
Good shit Solo.

I was suppose to have my post up around 12, but it was about 3 am when I actually posted it. My bad..

Don't mind if I add this to my signature for a bit....

Carry on with the debate

I'm definitely deleting my post. U_U

 

[Solo]

We can end this debate with the last post from DrProof.

 

[Curse Mark]

We can end this debate with the last post from DrProof.

Why? doesn't seem fair.

 

[Solo]

Why? doesn't seem fair.

End the debate when he post is what I mean. We'll both have 2 post then.

 

[Curse Mark]

End the debate when he post is what I mean. We'll both have 2 post then.

Oh okay i was just thinking the numbering was off but you're right!

 

[TheAncientCenturion]

As long as both you and Dr. Proof agree to end it there, I don't see why not.