[Theory] izanagi and EMS

[SixPathsOfTobi]

For some reason i think Madara escaped dead in the fight with Hashirama by using izanagi..

Here you see Hashirama looking to the top of the cliff before collapsing, Madara should've been dead, if Hashirama is sure he killed him, i think we can assume that's true to an extent.

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But when you use izanagi you lose a eye..

When Obito met Madara, Madara had just one eye in his eye sockets, his eyes/his rinnegan were given to nagato.. now where did he get that eye.. and why just one? my assumption is that it's his original eye.. the one he exchanged for Izuna's eyes, which eventually became the rinnegan. (because he wasn't blind when he did that.. he exchanged them when Izuna died (i also think EMS was common knowledge within the uchiha clan, Madara wasn't the first))..

The reason he just had one eye was because he used the other eye for izanagi in his fight with Hashirama.. But how? cause surely he had Izuna's eyes, the EMS eyes, that eventually became the rinnegan in his eye sockets.

We've seen with Kakashi and Obito that they could at least remotely view through each others eye..

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When Kakashi tried to kamui gedou mazou away his kamui was stopped..

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I think Obito remotely took control of Kakashi's eye and stopped kamui. Cause i don't see how he would've stopped it somehow with his closerange kamui, to me this sounds less farfetched than Obito magically stopping it using his kamui..

(there was also a theory on NB about remote usage of MS techniques when Madara used susanoo without eyeballs.. though i think that can also be explained with that susanoo isn't actually spawned from the eyes but from the body, though it can be connected to this too)

So Madara had his EMS eyes in his eye sockets, but we've seen it depicted like this:

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So what this theory all boils down to is this: Madara used izanagi by using his original eye(one which he was born with) remotely for it.
This also adds a little to the explanation of Itachi from why izanami was invented.. cause why would someone become arrogant and stuff if it's a 2 time use and then total blindness? now you can use it twice without losing eyesight at all and then twice again before going completely blind.

To go against it.. Madara did have a wound..

 

[fati]

or he put hashirama on a simple genjutsu

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

or he put hashirama on a simple genjutsu

Hashirama is not an idiot.. he wouldn't have been so sure about killing him.

 

[Prime Rib]

inzanagi causes the eye to close shut forever ems stop blindness from overuse of the ms. so either way he would not be able to spam izanagi

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

inzanagi causes the eye to close shut forever ems stop blindness from overuse of the ms. so either way he would not be able to spam izanagi

izanagi has nothing to do with MS.. i'm saying madara has 4 eyes.. but now he has 3 cause one is sacrificed for izanagi.

 

[xxSAGExx]

He didn't use Izanami against Hashirama because he would had to have been stabbed by Hashirama, copy how Hashirama and him felt and recreate that some event. Madara didn't have healing abilities at the time. It couldn't be Izanagi either because he lacked the Senju DNA and we know the caster appears shortly after. Also Hashirama wasn't trapped in a loop for it to be Izanami nor does he fall in a category of falling for it since he always been trying to talk Madara out of fighting but at the end Hashirama stopped trying to talk him out of it and killed him so that right there would have broke him out.

Obito only ever shown to have the connection with Kakashi two times from what we seen and if Obito could connect to Kakashi to stop him then he could also use that connection to make him use Kamui when looking at Naruto or at a random time which takes a toll on Kakashi. The eyes are just tolls afterall, and Obito's/Kakashi's eyes are still connected by the user's chakra while Madara's old eye's wouldn't have been until someone was wearing them. Plus Madara took Izuna's eyes when he went blind according to Obito. We seen Izuna get fatally wounded but time would have past before Madara returned with his EMS since we seen Sasuke having to wait like a week or more for his EMS and I'm pretty sure it's the Senju DNA that allowed Obito to just pop in the Rinnegan without any waiting time.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

He didn't use Izanami against Hashirama because he would had to have been stabbed by Hashirama, copy how Hashirama and him felt and recreate that some event. Madara didn't have healing abilities at the time. It couldn't be Izanagi either because he lacked the Senju DNA and we know the caster appears shortly after. Also Hashirama wasn't trapped in a loop for it to be Izanami nor does he fall in a category of falling for it since he always been trying to talk Madara out of fighting but at the end Hashirama stopped trying to talk him out of it and killed him so that right there would have broke him out.

Obito only ever shown to have the connection with Kakashi two times from what we seen and if Obito could connect to Kakashi to stop him then he could also use that connection to make him use Kamui when looking at Naruto or at a random time which takes a toll on Kakashi. The eyes are just tolls afterall, and Obito's/Kakashi's eyes are still connected by the user's chakra while Madara's old eye's wouldn't have been until someone was wearing them. Plus Madara took Izuna's eyes when he went blind according to Obito. We seen Izuna get fatally wounded but time would have past before Madara returned with his EMS since we seen Sasuke having to wait like a week or more for his EMS and I'm pretty sure it's the Senju DNA that allowed Obito to just pop in the Rinnegan without any waiting time.

i never talked about him using izanami.. that would be rediculous.. and you don't need senju dna for izanagi, it's not for nothing a uchiha technique (don't come with the scan of obito against konan)
"and we know the caster appears shortly after"
That's why i posted the first scan.. where Hashirama was looking to the top of that cliff.. like danzou was standing at the top of a pillar when he used izanagi.

If obito would initiate Kakashi's kamui Kakashi could stop it.. and kakashi would've know somethings up.. taking messing with kakashi's eye during the battle he would have to materialize like he needs with his own kamui.. etc.

 

[Prime Rib]

izanagi has nothing to do with MS.. i'm saying madara has 4 eyes.. but now he has 3 cause one is sacrificed for izanagi.

i did not say it has anything to do with it, i stated madara and any other use wont be able to use izanagi over and over again after each eye is done. so ems cant stop izanagi shutting the eye.

 

[ninjaofdoom]

Madara only had one eye because he only took one eye. He gave both of his rinnegan eyes to nagato.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

i did not say it has anything to do with it, i stated madara and any other use wont be able to use izanagi over and over again after each eye is done. so ems cant stop izanagi shutting the eye.

And i agree.. but the eye goes blind, you seem to think that his eye socket physically shuts down, cause it was shown like that with danzo and tobi.. tobi replaced the eye..
madara has 3 eyes now instead of 4 like that shinto demon thingy.. (at least, according to this theory)

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Madara only had one eye because he only took one eye. He gave both of his rinnegan eyes to nagato.

He took one eye from what/who? reread the theory.. it's his original eyes the ones he was born with.. and one of them he used for izanagi, Izuna's eyes are the ones that became EMS and later rinnegan..

 

[Oblivionx]

there is only one thing contradicting this theory and that is if the eye madara had before dying was his original eye i.e 3rd out of 4 then he should have 1 sharingan when he was revived via rinne tensei....! but he had no eye...! and madara told obito that he would like to stock up few extra eyes....! that means he snatched that eye from someone else may be with zetsu's help because he was too weak to do it himself....! and kakshi and obito both can see through each other's eye and kakashi didn't know what the hell was going on when he saw sasuke and naruto so kakashi unintentionally took over obito's eye who was sage at that time??? i don't think so....! hence that connection is different, it may be because they are eyes of same person so what one eye sees, other can as well....!

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

there is only one thing contradicting this theory and that is if the eye madara had before dying was his original eye i.e 3rd out of 4 then he should have 1 sharingan when he was revived via rinne tensei....! but he had no eye...! and madara told obito that he would like to stock up few extra eyes....! that means he snatched that eye from someone else may be with zetsu's help because he was too weak to do it himself....! and kakshi and obito both can see through each other's eye and kakashi didn't know what the hell was going on when he saw sasuke and naruto so kakashi unintentionally took over obito's eye who was sage at that time??? i don't think so....! hence that connection is different, it may be because they are eyes of same person so what one eye sees, other can as well....!

The eye that madara had in his eye socket is the eye that obito implanted in his empty eye socket and eventually used for izanagi against konan.. that's why he was revived without eyes.. so madara actually has 2 out of 4 eyes.

 

[Uchiha Samater]

he implanted his original eyes in Nagato

Izanagi as far as we know need an eye to be sacrificed, teats the major problem with that theory

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

he implanted his original eyes in Nagato

Izanagi as far as we know need an eye to be sacrificed, teats the major problem with that theory

You didn't read it..

The eye he used for izanagi was his eye where he was born with.. the eyes he implanted in nagato, which was his EMS that had turned into rinnegan, were Izuna's eyes.

Read the OP, cause with this comment alone you'll come with misunderstanding of what i mean.

 

[sindi1997]

I BELIVED HE USED IZANAGIZZ BUT your reasoning is a bit wrong at the kakashi and obito s case you see when too kamui face each other they both cancel each other its like this consider two torandos rotating Right when put face to face They cancel each other since one will rotate right while the other will rotate on the left its simple logic ... about the izanagi part i m preety sure madara used it however since ems means eternal Light His eye could go blind TEmporarly Otherwise Ems Would be too op however i m not sure of this yet

 

[Uchiha Samater]

You didn't read it..

The eye he used for izanagi was his eye where he was born with.. the eyes he implanted in nagato, which was his EMS that had turned into rinnegan, were Izuna's eyes.

Read the OP, cause with this comment alone you'll come with misunderstanding of what i mean.

I don't believe it was remotely used

Obito didn't negate Kakashi's jutsu, he simply beat him and in sending the Mazo away
[otherwise the Mazo would not have vanished]

The eyes he had in his socket he referred to as a spare, and threatned to take Obito's to add to it, so we know he had spare eyes, and would have added to the collection

[a foreshadow, albeit afterwards, to how Obito collected ''spare'' eyes]



Here is the problem, in all the manga scans during the Hashirama fight he had EMS activated, hence he had Izuna's eyes which became EMS due to the switch



Any use of a regular Mangekyou leads to blindness, so we can assume his original eyes were in bad shape, which is most likely the reason why Izuna gave his eyes upon death to give him more power

Also, back to the scans, they were EMS and not regular Mangekyou commas, which confirm he had Izunas eyes implanted




He would have needed time to remove his eyes, implant Izuna's etc etc

and it wouldn;t be as he just did recently with the Rinnegan, as then he had no Hashi dna to help him, this can also be applied to the Sussaanoo without eyes, due to the combination of ''Body [senju] and Eyes [Uchiha]''

 

[Draxus]

I think Obito remotely took control of Kakashi's eye and stopped kamui. Cause i don't see how he would've stopped it somehow with his closerange kamui, to me this sounds less farfetched than Obito magically stopping it using his kamui..

I know this is just a matter of opinion, but I would have to say Obito controlling the chakra going into an organ that's not part of his body is far more farfetched. If Obito could control Kakashi's eye why wouldn't he just turn off his MS? I think you theory is much more farfetched.

(there was also a theory on NB about remote usage of MS techniques when Madara used susanoo without eyeballs.. though i think that can also be explained with that susanoo isn't actually spawned from the eyes but from the body, though it can be connected to this too)

So Madara had his EMS eyes in his eye sockets, but we've seen it depicted like this:

Spoiler

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So what this theory all boils down to is this: Madara used izanagi by using his original eye(one which he was born with) remotely for it.
This also adds a little to the explanation of Itachi from why izanami was invented.. cause why would someone become arrogant and stuff if it's a 2 time use and then total blindness? now you can use it twice without losing eyesight at all and then twice again before going completely blind.

To go against it.. Madara did have a wound..

I can't agree with your theory simply because if both things you say are true... Obito wouldn't have had to implant an eye to use izanagi against Konan, since has a whole wall full of them that he could use remotely.


Also... regarding the point you were making about the threat of izunagi if it can only be used twice:
1) It was developed because Uchiha were using it against each other.
2) If the opponent is of the same skill level, it could only take 1 use of izunagi to win the fight.
3) Winner takes losers eyes, so can use it against future Uchiha.
4) Izunami creates a "Cold War" threat situation where no Uchiha can use it against another with the knowledge that the opponent can lock him into an infinite loop.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

I don't believe it was remotely used

Obito didn't negate Kakashi's jutsu, he simply beat him and in sending the Mazo away
[otherwise the Mazo would not have vanished]

What are you talking about? like i said read the OP, cause the scan is in there.. the mazo didn't go away back then, you're talking about recently that madara summoned gedou mazou from obito.. (that time kakashi did cut off gedous arm btw)

The eyes he had in his socket he referred to as a spare, and threatned to take Obito's to add to it, so we know he had spare eyes, and would have added to the collection

[a foreshadow, albeit afterwards, to how Obito collected ''spare'' eyes]

he said that he had the eye in his socket laying around as a spare and was saying to obito that he didn't have a right eye.

Here is the problem, in all the manga scans during the Hashirama fight he had EMS activated, hence he had Izuna's eyes which became EMS due to the switch

you didn't even read the reaction i had to you.. he did have those eyes in his eye socket yes.. but he has four eyes.. izuna's and his own.. that's depicted in that four eyed shinto demon thingy.

Any use of a regular Mangekyou leads to blindness, so we can assume his original eyes were in bad shape, which is most likely the reason why Izuna gave his eyes upon death to give him more power

Izuna didn't give him anything.. izuna died and therefor madara could use his eyes.

Also, back to the scans, they were EMS and not regular Mangekyou commas, which confirm he had Izunas eyes implanted

He would have needed time to remove his eyes, implant Izuna's etc etc

and it wouldn;t be as he just did recently with the Rinnegan, as then he had no Hashi dna to help him, this can also be applied to the Sussaanoo without eyes, due to the combination of ''Body [senju] and Eyes [Uchiha]''

again go read the op.. or even my comment to you.. Yes he had Izuna's eyes in his eyesocket, but he's still connected to his own eyes,like depicted in the 4 eyed shinto demon/god thing and like obito's connection with his other eye.

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I know this is just a matter of opinion, but I would have to say Obito controlling the chakra going into an organ that's not part of his body is far more farfetched. If Obito could control Kakashi's eye why wouldn't he just turn off his MS? I think you theory is much more farfetched.

It's already shown he has at least a visual connection with it.., when obito uses his doujutsu he needs to materialize.. so he would need to materialize to do stuff to kakashi's eye, and after he done it kakashi activates it again..

I can't agree with your theory simply because if both things you say are true... Obito wouldn't have had to implant an eye to use izanagi against Konan, since has a whole wall full of them that he could use remotely.

Obito is in no way connected to any of those eyes.. madara's connection was remotely with his own eyes, like obito has a connection with his own eye and izuna's eyes were in his eye sockets.

Also... regarding the point you were making about the threat of izunagi if it can only be used twice:
1) It was developed because Uchiha were using it against each other.
2) If the opponent is of the same skill level, it could only take 1 use of izunagi to win the fight.
3) Winner takes losers eyes, so can use it against future Uchiha.
4) Izunami creates a "Cold War" threat situation where no Uchiha can use it against another with the knowledge that the opponent can lock him into an infinite loop.

first of all i added that line after a edit cause it popped into my mind it's not an essential part of the theory.
2) then the one that uses it first loses? and what stops him from using his second eye and going blind entirely?

i didn't get itachi explanation at all by the way.. cause what i've seen is just that you can undo harm done to yourself while you have izanagi activated. it basically only has to do with what happens to you and what you do.. so i don't see how uchiha would be fighting over which results to use like itachi said.

 

[Draxus]

It's already shown he has at least a visual connection with it.., when obito uses his doujutsu he needs to materialize.. so he would need to materialize to do stuff to kakashi's eye, and after he done it kakashi activates it again..

Like I said... matter of opinion. Agree to disagree. There is a visual connection, but it works both ways. Kakashi was using Obitio's eye to watch Obito's fight w/ Naruto and Sasuke. Does that mean Kakashi can control Obito's MS?

Obito is in no way connected to any of those eyes.. madara's connection was remotely with his own eyes, like obito has a connection with his own eye and izuna's eyes were in his eye sockets.

No connection, yet he still could use it to perform the jutsu? I can see that in that it wasn't his eye originally.

first of all i added that line after a edit cause it popped into my mind it's not an essential part of the theory.
2) then the one that uses it first loses? and what stops him from using his second eye and going blind entirely?

Well see that was another part of the reason they introduced Izanagi, at least that's how I understood Itachi's explanation.

i didn't get itachi explanation at all by the way.. cause what i've seen is just that you can undo harm done to yourself while you have izanagi activated. it basically only has to do with what happens to you and what you do.. so i don't see how uchiha would be fighting over which results to use like itachi said.

Going back to my previous point, with multiple Uchia's on a battlefield they all get hit by the same attack and each uses it simultaneously, only one users reality can be turned into a dream. The anime does a good job of showing how it would happen.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Like I said... matter of opinion. Agree to disagree. There is a visual connection, but it works both ways. Kakashi was using Obitio's eye to watch Obito's fight w/ Naruto and Sasuke. Does that mean Kakashi can control Obito's MS?

that obito needs to materialize to use his mangekyou doujutsu is a manga fact as far as i'm concerned. and.. if the theory is correct, then, possibly.. though obito probably has stronger connection..

No connection, yet he still could use it to perform the jutsu? I can see that in that it wasn't his eye originally.

He had the eye that wasn't his in his eyesocket so there was a connection.. the manga has already shown that you can look through your own sharingan eye remotely, but you cannot look through another persons sharingan eye..

Going back to my previous point, with multiple Uchia's on a battlefield they all get hit by the same attack and each uses it simultaneously, only one users reality can be turned into a dream. The anime does a good job of showing how it would happen.

:S to my understanding izanagi works on yourself.. if you get hit by an attack you can turn that into a dream.. izanagi is a genjutsu cast upon oneself like Tobi said.. it doesn't matter if other people get hurt by it.. if the other uchiha use izanagi too they too will turn that damage on themselves into a dream..