[VS] Kakashi Hatake vs Tobirama Senju

[Touken]

Senses the build-up chakra? Please tell me you're joking, the build-up lasts like a half of a second coming to Kakashi's Kamui, even if Tobirama senses it there's no way he will be on time of blocking the line of sight... Please, this is a lame argument.

I'm sorry, was this half a second?
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Kakashi has a time frame? That tame frame is smaller than the time frame it takes Tobirama to take a kunai and throw it definitely. (cough susano arrow cough.)

Sasuke was aiming for Kakashi and there was distance between them. All Tobirama has to do is flick the kunai up and teleport to it.

Also... Your argument is based on Tobirama having knowledge of Kamui, because if he "senses" the chakra build-up (no way, too fast and too short), how would he react to it if he doesn't even know what the jutsu is about, also we are assuming that Tobirama starts the battle with a kunai in his hand and a marking on it, so it would be prep...

It's not based on sensing the chakra build-up, I added that as an extra precaution Tobirama could take. He usually starts out battles with his sword and his sword already has a marking on it. Even if it doesn't in this battle, he could apply the seal while holding it so the time it takes to place a seal on his sword is next to no time at all.

Tobirama needs PREP and KNOWLEDGE of kamui to win this, your argument was butraped, bye bye.

He's not going to FTG out if he feels something is being done to his body?

^^^^
Just read your post above... Kakashi didn't prep. the Kamui when the Mazou got out of Obito's body, he activated MS just when Minato asked him to do something, that's a half of second.

Yeah, no, it goes against what's happened before in the manga.

 

[EZQ]

I'm sorry, was this half a second?
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Sasuke was aiming for Kakashi and there was distance between them. All Tobirama has to do is flick the kunai up and teleport to it.

It's not based on sensing the chakra build-up, I added that as an extra precaution Tobirama could take. He usually starts out battles with his sword and his sword already has a marking on it. Even if it doesn't in this battle, he could apply the seal while holding it so the time it takes to place a seal on his sword is next to no time at all.

He's not going to FTG out if he feels something is being done to his body?

Yeah, no, it goes against what's happened before in the manga.

1- Why do you use old feats? Kakashi's last feat shows there's a very short build up... and even shorter if he wants to warp something smaller than the gedo's arm... (Tobirama's body)

2- You are assuming Tobirama already starts with a kunai in his hand and has knowledge on what Kamui would do.

3- If Tobirama looses a second of his time putting a marking on his swords he gets warped.

4- If he feels something is being done to his body? As soon as he feels the pressure on his body he's done.

5- Before is before and now is now, CURRENTLY Kakashi needs no build up.

 

[Touken]

1- Why do you use old feats? Kakashi's last feat shows there's a very short build up... and even shorter if he wants to warp something smaller than the gedo's arm... (Tobirama's body)

Because it makes no sense if you say all he needs is half a second prep for his Kamui.

2- You are assuming Tobirama already starts with a kunai in his hand and has knowledge on what Kamui would do.

And why doesn't he start out with a kunai/sword in his hand? And no, I'm not.

3- If Tobirama looses a second of his time putting a marking on his swords he gets warped.

Takes less than a second to apply a seal on something he's holding.

4- If he feels something is being done to his body? As soon as he feels the pressure on his body he's done.

Because Minato did, right?

5- Before is before and now is now, CURRENTLY Kakashi needs no build up.

He could already

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from Obito, why would he then prep his Kamui before it's going to be teleported away?

 

[EZQ]

Because it makes no sense if you say all he needs is half a second prep for his Kamui.


And why doesn't he start out with a kunai/sword in his hand? And no, I'm not.

Takes less than a second to apply a seal on something he's holding.

Because Minato did, right?

He could already

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from Obito, why would he then prep his Kamui before it's going to be teleported away?

1- Because it doesn't make sense? Well yes, admit it, Kamui is TOO OP NOW, Kakashi DOES NEED JUST a half of a second or probably even less to perform kamui, that it doesn't make sense to you is not relevant.

2- Saying that you're not assuming Tobirama has knowledge on Kamui doesn't change the fact that in your previous posts you are doing that.

3- Takes more than half of a second to grab a kunai, put a marking on it and throw it away (and tobirama would just do that with knowledge, he wouldn't just randomly throw a kunai to dodge an atack he doesn't know is coming, he would only do that with knowledge)

4- Kakashi's Kamui is faster than Obito's, it far surpasses Obito's speed.

5- He was seeing the Mazou, but he didn't activate the MS as soon as he saw it, he activated it just after Minato asked him to do so (the reason could be that Kakashi already knows he doesn't need build-up, so he didn't bother in putting up MS before)

I repeat, Tobirama needs knowledge and prep to beat Kakashi (out of character)

 

[Touken]

1- Because it doesn't make sense? Well yes, admit it, Kamui is TOO OP NOW, Kakashi DOES NEED JUST a half of a second or probably even less to perform kamui, that it doesn't make sense to you is not relevant.

Kakashi had to first activate MS and then use Kamui? Is that what you're saying?

2- Saying that you're not assuming Tobirama has knowledge on Kamui doesn't change the fact that in your previous posts you are doing that.

Care to show me where?

3- Takes more than half of a second to grab a kunai, put a marking on it and throw it away (and tobirama would just do that with knowledge, he wouldn't just randomly throw a kunai to dodge an atack he doesn't know is coming, he would only do that with knowledge)

He already starts with a sword in hand, like he does in almost all of his manga battles. Minato had time to bring his hand up and do a hand seal, pretty sure Tobirama will have time to flick his kunai/sword up when Kakashi's trying to warp him away.

4- Kakashi's Kamui is faster than Obito's, it far surpasses Obito's speed.

Apart from Kakashi using it on the Mazo (since we're debating this), give me scans showing his Kamui is faster.

5- He was seeing the Mazou, but he didn't activate the MS as soon as he saw it, he activated it just after Minato asked him to do so (the reason could be that Kakashi already knows he doesn't need build-up, so he didn't bother in putting up MS before)

Kakashi already knew what he was going to do regardless of what Minato said, considering he's already tried to kill the Mazo with a Kamui to the neck and this time Obito couldn't stop him. He had already prepped his MS before Minato asked him if he could Kamui the Mazo. Kakashi had to activate his MS first and then use Kamui.

Spoiler

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Activates MS first and then uses Kamui.

I repeat, Tobirama needs knowledge and prep to beat Kakashi (out of character)

No he doesn't.

 

[EZQ]

Kakashi had to first activate MS and then use Kamui? Is that what you're saying?


Care to show me where?

He already starts with a sword in hand, like he does in almost all of his manga battles. Minato had time to bring his hand up and do a hand seal, pretty sure Tobirama will have time to flick his kunai/sword up when Kakashi's trying to warp him away.

Apart from Kakashi using it on the Mazo (since we're debating this), give me scans showing his Kamui is faster.

Kakashi already knew what he was going to do regardless of what Minato said, considering he's already tried to kill the Mazo with a Kamui to the neck and this time Obito couldn't stop him. He had already prepped his MS before Minato asked him if he could Kamui the Mazo. Kakashi had to activate his MS first and then use Kamui.

No he doesn't.

1- I'm my previous point 1 i meant that the fact that it doesnt make sense to you doesn't change the fact that kakashi needs probably less than a half of second to use kamui.

2- read my previous point 3, you saying tobirama would do that is implying that you think he has knowledge on kamui.

3- Okay lets say tobirama starts with a kunai/sword on his hand, why would he throw it randomly to the air to dodge kamui if he doesn't have knowledge of it? Sensing the build up is already countered since Kakashi showed his chakra build up is really short, so Tobirama isn't throwing the kunai randomly to dodge something he doesnt know its coming.

4- Kakashi warping the BM Naruto clone (and obito didn't even see it). If Obito didn't even see kakashi warping Bm Naruto, then how in hell would his kamui work faster than his own eyes. Also why are you restricting the gedo mazo's feat, you can't do that. Kakashi's kamui > Obito's sight so the result is Kakashi's kamui speed > Obito's kamui speed.

5- No, Kakashi activated MS as soon as minato asked him, not before, that's a manga fact.
-He activated MS (when minato asked him to)
-He made the build-up (like 0.5 seconds)
-He warped the Mazou

Just admit Tobirama looses bro, i mean, 99% of NV looses to Kakashi on the vs threads, his kamui is too unfair.

 

[Touken]

I'll counter later, a little busy right now.

 

[Fresco]

Tobirama could effectively counteract Kamui with Kage Bunshin.

 

[Sendai Aka No Ou]

Does anyone have any actual scans that show the difference in speed between Kakashi and Obito's Kamui (aside from the 'stake' scan.)? I was always under the impression they were the same speed.

Again I'm not overly fussed who wins this matchup.

Like I said to End Of Days; if Kakashi wants to Kamui a space as big as the Mazou (and on the slim chance Hirashin is somehow too slow to evade it.) then Tobirama isn't going to die, he's simply going to the next dimension. Due to the stipulations being what they are Kakashi would have to follow.

What I do know is that Hirashin was not only able to evade Kamui, but also do it whilst being sucked up and whilst Obito was physically touching Minato. [

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] This was the same Kamui that was able to intercept and save Sasuke whilst he was captivated within Jinton.

And frankly when we factor in the potential large numbers of Kage Bushin Kakashi is hardly going to see Kamui as a valid option.

Tobirama could effectively counteract Kamui with Kage Bunshin.

Already said this. They don't see it as valid. Don't really see why.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

They're both insanely fast and probably equal in speed.

 

[Optimistic]

Already said this. They don't see it as valid. Don't really see why.

It would work if Kakashi isn't bloodlusted, the start of the fight has no tags laying around or bunshins at ready. Only way this can be discussed is if the intent isn't bloodlusted.(thankfully it isn't).

 

[Touken]

They're all talking about a bloodlusted Kakashi using Kamui off the bat.

@ezequielosses, lemme finish my Bio/Chem homework and I'll get back to you.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

They're all talking about a bloodlusted Kakashi using Kamui off the bat.

Then Tobirama loses, but bloodlusted Kakashi beats almost anyone.

 

[Touken]

Then Tobirama loses, but bloodlusted Kakashi beats almost anyone.

I guess I'll concede then, but some others think that Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't quick enough to counter Kamui. I think that's how all this started, not sure how we got onto a bloodlusted Kakashi.

 

[Sendai Aka No Ou]

Lol this matchup.

 

[sharingansennin]

"ocularly burdened"

^ there is no proof of this whatsoever. Nor is there any proof that Kamui's speed increases over time. Scan of Kakashi's Kamui "out speeding" Obito's please.

By feats Hirashin is faster than the summoning Jutsu; all you've done is pointed that out. If it couldn't even hit a target as big as the Mazou mid-teleport - which everyone could see; then it has no chance at all of hitting Hirashin users. Your analogy is flawed.

More Impressive Suiton? In part one he required 44 handseals to do a Jutsu Tobirama could do with one. Tobirama also has Suiryuudan just like Kakashi. The only thing that is worthy of note is the Jutsu that he copied off Zabuza in part one. Even then a Suiryuudan can stave that off.

The Raiton variants are the main threat. But even then Kakashi has no chance of coping against Tobirama's superior reserves.



A different location is anywhere aside from where he is standing. He could literally mark the ground and move two metres in any direction.

Scan?

Tobirama has shown no FEATS!!! of this almighty Suiton he posses until he does so, he has what he has. Which is a water gun that squirtle could perform. Kakashi wins Extreme Difficulty imo.

 

[Sendai Aka No Ou]

Tobirama has shown no FEATS!!! of this almighty Suiton he posses until he does so, he has what he has. Which is a water gun that squirtle could perform. Kakashi wins Extreme Difficulty imo.

Calm yourself he's used three Jutsu.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

I guess I'll concede then, but some others think that Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't quick enough to counter Kamui. I think that's how all this started, not sure how we got onto a bloodlusted Kakashi.

Well, Tobirama can't FTG if Kakashi starts with Kamui, as he has no tags. Neither can Minato.

 

[Fresco]

It would work if Kakashi isn't bloodlusted, the start of the fight has no tags laying around or bunshins at ready. Only way this can be discussed is if the intent isn't bloodlusted.(thankfully it isn't).

Then Tobirama loses, but bloodlusted Kakashi beats almost anyone.

Where in the OP does it state that Kakashi is bloodlusted? The arguments I'm seeing are shitty. (not saying the two I quoted are)

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Where in the OP does it state that Kakashi is bloodlusted? The arguments I'm seeing are shitty. (not saying the two I quoted are)

Ever heard of a hypothetical discussion?