To people that say that Madara and Obito's ideology is weak minded

[chaos control]

On one hand I see what you're saying when you say that people shouldn't give up. However, I wouldn't really call Madara and Obito weak minded. In esscense, they are like engineers in a sense.

What do engineers do? Their job is to solve world problems using scientific and technological skills. When the world saw the need to get to higher floors in a more efficient manner, engineers created the elevator as a means to solve that problem. It was a problem-solution relationship.

In the same way, Madara and Obito saw the problems with the shinobi world. They saw the fact that pride (over things like one's clan) and greed (over things like money, land and militaristic power) led to senseless wars that caused the deaths of innocent people. Were they wrong? Think about it.

The Uchiha clan ancestor's damaged pride (over something as simple as not being chosen as the sage's successor) ultimately started the war between the Uchiha and Senju. This was the same war that killed Madara's brothers, Hashirama's brothers and countless other people. Little kids (like Kawarama Senju) were being killed at ages such as 7! What's worse? There was nothing that the suffering children could even do about it! They had no power to change things! They were just doomed to a terrible life for reasons that were out of their control.

Another example is the 1st shinobi world war. Hashirama tried to give all of the nations bijuus as a peace offering, but how did the nations respond? Their greed led them to crave and fight over more power and money. This led to the 1st world war, which killed many people who had no power to control the circumstances they were in! The tension generated from this war probably led to the tension that generated the next two wars (the third of which killed Rin!)
It killed poor Rin who had no say in any of this!

As you can see, the shinobi world and life in general made it so that horrible things will happen to innocent people who were powerless to change their fate. Madara and Obito clearly saw a clearly defined problem to this. That is what led them to come up with infinite tsukuyomi as a solution to the problem.

It is a problem-solution relationship ; just like with the engineers.

You are simply saying that people basically need to just get over it. Not everyone is satisfied with just getting over it though. Some people actually want to create change to solve problems. You are saying that nobody should create change and that people should just settle for suffering.

Think about the real world. What if nobody ever decided to study medicine? What if everyone just took your approach and said "people get sick, but let's just get over it and suffer anyway instead of studying medicine"? If that were the case, then people would still be dying from the common cold. One little sneeze would mean a death sentence. What if nobody ever invented any modes of transportation? Going from your house to your job would require walking for hours or even days on end like it did centuries ago. If you're injured, you can forget about it. Don't you see? It is not always enough to just get over it. Change is necessary. Solutions are necessary!

Now don't get me wrong. People with Naruto's ideals are still respectable. However, unlike Madara, Obito, Nagato and now even Sasuke, Naruto has no actual plan to create change. He is just saying, "Don't give up dattebayo! Let your friends help you get through it". While those things may help you get over pain, it does nothing to actually address the real issues of the world. If a cereal killer is on the loose and he kills your friends, even if you say "I won't give up", that still does nothing to stop the cereal killer. That is the problem with Naruto's views. In essence, Naruto's ideology is just a bandage while Madara's ideology is the actual preventative measure against injury.

If you counter me by saying something like "the preventative measure against injury is to start a war?"or something like that, I will say this: Sometimes, creating change requires one last dose of injury. It is just like how vaccines help prevent sickness by introducing your body to that sickness


In conclusion: Madara and Obito are the exact opposite of weak minded. They are stronger because they are taking a stand instead of just sitting there and just giving in to whatever crap life gives you. It's easy to be like Naruto and just say "get over it". It takes strength to actually do something about it.

 

[Pwner10144]

This is all Bs, all that matters is, #InMadaraWeTrust

 

[Limbo]

Madara solos anybody in NV except so6p.

 

[chaos control]

This is all Bs, all that matters is, #InMadaraWeTrust

Madara solos anybody in NV except so6p.

Both of you clearly didn't read. I am advocating for Madara and Obito. I am not going against them.

 

[Limbo]

Both of you clearly didn't read. I am advocating for Madara and Obito. I am not going against them.

I know, but i can't read all that, im really tired, i just came here since i saw Madara and i just said that Madara solos.

 

[Pwner10144]

I did not say that, in fact it's you who didn't read, I stated that all that redundant waffle is superfluous to convey that Madara solo's.

 

[Wabbit]

If you got your hand broken then would you take painkiller and prevent pain and stay as that or would you get a real treatment

 

[lilzay2kay]

ssssmh at you *****s in this thread

op is right tbh

great analogies as well

 

[Huzaifa]

You really need to stop making these bs threads. Reply to them directly. Plus you know the idiots you are talking to won't listen. You are just arguing with people with no reason.

 

[Wolfus]

I agree that they're not weak minded, they actually planned something and they kept their plan, they were doing eveyrhting to stand up to what they believed. However, what they claimed to be solution is nothing more than escaping from the problems.

The infinite tsukuyomi is not a way to true peace and it will never be. In their plan, they just put everybody on an endless dream in which everything is perfect. But that's what it is: a dream. It's not real life. Running from the problems shows that you don't really know how to face them because they are to hard to be solved. Instead of infinite tsukuyomi, they could just stay in their houses sleeping all day(they can dream for eternitiy like that, or at least until they starve).

Obito and madara's way is not solving the problem. Naruto's way is. To make people understand each other, that's true peace. We have true peace when people can respect and accept each other no matter the differences(be them opinions, behaviors, trraditions or beliefs). In that way, people will truly be able to understand the other person, to put his/herself in the other's place, and think about the consequences of their actions to the other members of society. So, people won't fight and kill each other. That's true peace.

But true peace is also impossible, because we're humans, and it's in our nature to do the opposite of that. Naruto's path is the hardest one, considering this, ad in reality, he would never achieve it. But he is the one who would be trying his best to get closer to the real solution.

 

[chaos control]

I agree that they're not weak minded, they actually planned something and they kept their plan, they were doing eveyrhting to stand up to what they believed. However, what they claimed to be solution is nothing more than escaping from the problems.

The infinite tsukuyomi is not a way to true peace and it will never be. In their plan, they just put everybody on an endless dream in which everything is perfect. But that's what it is: a dream. It's not real life. Running from the problems shows that you don't really know how to face them because they are to hard to be solved. Instead of infinite tsukuyomi, they could just stay in their houses sleeping all day(they can dream for eternitiy like that, or at least until they starve).

Obito and madara's way is not solving the problem. Naruto's way is. To make people understand each other, that's true peace. We have true peace when people can respect and accept each other no matter the differences(be them opinions, behaviors, trraditions or beliefs). In that way, people will truly be able to understand the other person, to put his/herself in the other's place, and think about the consequences of their actions to the other members of society. So, people won't fight and kill each other. That's true peace.

But true peace is also impossible, because we're humans, and it's in our nature to do the opposite of that. Naruto's path is the hardest one, considering this, ad in reality, he would never achieve it. But he is the one who would be trying his best to get closer to the real solution.

Philosophical question: You say that infinite tsukuyomi is not real peace because it is a dream, but what defines the word "real"? If you are physically experiencing said dream, doesn't that mean that this dream is your reality? Think about it this way. Why do we eat candy and other junk food? Answer: It tastes good. If we could make it where we could just get the taste and physical feeling of the candy in our mouths by just dreaming or thinking of it, then would it really matter that we didn't have the actual candy in our hands? We'd still have the taste and feeling that we want without actually having to make our bodies unhealthy by eating junk food. Therefore, that is actually 2 missions accomplished. One mission is staying healthy and the other is getting the taste.


Why then, does it matter that the candy bar is not actually physically in your hands? It is the same concept with infinite tsukuyomi. You say that Naruto has the true definition of peace (getting people to understand eachother). That is true, but he has no method to make that happen. That is the problem. He is all talk and has no plan of action. It is impossible to make everyone in the world truly understand eachother except through pure mind control. That is why Obito was more correct than Naruto. Talk without a plan=worthless.

 

[Wolfus]

Philosophical question: You say that infinite tsukuyomi is not real peace because it is a dream, but what defines the word "real"? If you are physically experiencing said dream, doesn't that mean that this dream is your reality? Think about it this way. Why do we eat candy and other junk food? Answer: It tastes good. If we could make it where we could just get the taste and physical feeling of the candy in our mouths by just dreaming or thinking of it, then would it really matter that we didn't have the actual candy in our hands? We'd still have the taste and feeling that we want without actually having to make our bodies unhealthy by eating junk food. Therefore, that is actually 2 missions accomplished. One mission is staying healthy and the other is getting the taste.


Why then, does it matter that the candy bar is not actually physically in your hands? It is the same concept with infinite tsukuyomi. You say that Naruto has the true definition of peace (getting people to understand eachother). That is true, but he has no method to make that happen. That is the problem. He is all talk and has no plan of action. It is impossible to make everyone in the world truly understand eachother except through pure mind control. That is why Obito was more correct than Naruto. Talk without a plan=worthless.

Very interesting idea. Dream vs reality, what makes reality real? Let's see, I'll use the same idea of your candy thing. When you "dream eat" your candy, you're experiencing the taste and the feeling of that candy. However, you're not actually eating it. It's just an illusion of you eating it. And no matter how perfect the illusion was, you're not eating candy. The said candy is not entering your digestive system and it's nutrients are not being absorbed.

The point is: you didn't eat it, you just pretend you eat it. If you were to "dream eat" everything, you'd die.
Have you ever heard of women that believe so much that they are pregnant that they actually start to present the "symptoms"? But in the end of the day, they're not pregnant, and she won't have a baby. Picture the baby as the effects and consequences of reality. That's how you know something is real or not. Picture the candy in your digestive system in the same way.

Naruto has a way to make it happen: TNJ. It doesn't apply to real life, of course. But that's the point of TNJ in the manga. What kind of peace would he achieve if he started to kill all his enemies instead of trying to save them from the "dark path"? Another fake peace. The point of TNJ is made the villains understand that their actions harm many others, and that their path is wrong. That's how he makes people understand each other. Talk is his plan. And in NV, it works(nagato, obito...). Obito's plan doesn't make people understnad each other. He puts them in a fake reality in which everything is perfect so that the can run away from his problems. That's not understanding. That's an infinite illusion. And the real thing, the real peace, he can't live it. Just like the woman can't have that baby I mentioned. Just like you can't have the nutrients of the candy.

In reality, talking people out of it is not the solution, of course. I believe that you can only make a person understand that he/she is wrong when you make him/her experience the direct bad consequences of his actions. He/she will feel it in ther skins, they'll feel the pain, carry the burden. Then, MAYBE, they'll realize they were wrong, and join the "good" side. But of course, it won't work with everybody, but it's the closest thing we would get from achieviing the real solution. So it's better to try our hard to achieve it, even though we won't. At least we tried correctly, and we did our best to get close to what is the best. This is better than running away from everything.

 

[chaos control]

Very interesting idea. Dream vs reality, what makes reality real? Let's see, I'll use the same idea of your candy thing. When you "dream eat" your candy, you're experiencing the taste and the feeling of that candy. However, you're not actually eating it. It's just an illusion of you eating it. And no matter how perfect the illusion was, you're not eating candy. The said candy is not entering your digestive system and it's nutrients are not being absorbed.

The point is: you didn't eat it, you just pretend you eat it. If you were to "dream eat" everything, you'd die.
Have you ever heard of women that believe so much that they are pregnant that they actually start to present the "symptoms"? But in the end of the day, they're not pregnant, and she won't have a baby. Picture the baby as the effects and consequences of reality. That's how you know something is real or not. Picture the candy in your digestive system in the same way.

Naruto has a way to make it happen: TNJ. It doesn't apply to real life, of course. But that's the point of TNJ in the manga. What kind of peace would he achieve if he started to kill all his enemies instead of trying to save them from the "dark path"? Another fake peace. The point of TNJ is made the villains understand that their actions harm many others, and that their path is wrong. That's how he makes people understand each other. Talk is his plan. And in NV, it works(nagato, obito...). Obito's plan doesn't make people understnad each other. He puts them in a fake reality in which everything is perfect so that the can run away from his problems. That's not understanding. That's an infinite illusion. And the real thing, the real peace, he can't live it. Just like the woman can't have that baby I mentioned. Just like you can't have the nutrients of the candy.

In reality, talking people out of it is not the solution, of course. I believe that you can only make a person understand that he/she is wrong when you make him/her experience the direct bad consequences of his actions. He/she will feel it in ther skins, they'll feel the pain, carry the burden. Then, MAYBE, they'll realize they were wrong, and join the "good" side. But of course, it won't work with everybody, but it's the closest thing we would get from achieviing the real solution. So it's better to try our hard to achieve it, even though we won't. At least we tried correctly, and we did our best to get close to what is the best. This is better than running away from everything.

Nice counter! That was deep. However, you are missing one point about my candy analogy. Remember, the candy is junk food. It is being depicted as a harmful substance that damages the body. You don't eat the candy for nutrients. It does more harm than it does good. In the same way, reality is like that harmful candy. It comes with the negative effects of hatred, oppression, greed, etc... just like the candy comes with the harmful perservatives and the simple carbohydrates. Therefore you don't want the candy in your digestive system. You just want the taste. Candy itself is not good for nutrients (just like reality is not good for happiness). That is why it is called junk food. In a dream, you can have the few good things that these things offer while avoiding the bad. In reality, trying to enjoy good things generally only leads to suffering the bad. The bad outweighs the good. Even with your baby analogy, the mother wouldn't have to worry about economic issues, school/college funds or responsibility if she just dreams the baby. If she has a real one, then she has to worry about all of that stuff. Dream worlds are not running away. They are simply being efficient and eliminating the bad while obtaining the good.

In a nutshell, I am saying that you don't want the candy in your digestive system because it has no good nutrients. You only want what is good (the taste).

 

[Wolfus]

Nice counter! That was deep. However, you are missing one point about my candy analogy. Remember, the candy is junk food. It is being depicted as a harmful substance that damages the body. You don't eat the candy for nutrients. It does more harm than it does good. In the same way, reality is like that harmful candy. It comes with the negative effects of hatred, oppression, greed, etc... just like the candy comes with the harmful perservatives and the simple carbohydrates. Therefore you don't want the candy in your digestive system. You just want the taste. Candy itself is not good for nutrients (just like reality is not good for happiness). That is why it is called junk food. In a dream, you can have the few good things that these things offer while avoiding the bad. In reality, trying to enjoy good things generally only leads to suffering the bad. The bad outweighs the good. Even with your baby analogy, the mother wouldn't have to worry about economic issues, school/college funds or responsibility if she just dreams the baby. If she has a real one, then she has to worry about all of that stuff. Dream worlds are not running away. They are simply being efficient and eliminating the bad while obtaining the good.

In a nutshell, I am saying that you don't want the candy in your digestive system because it has no good nutrients. You only want what is good (the taste).

Sure, candy has negative effects, but that's what reality is about. The candy's negative effects might harm you and cause you a problem, and you'll have to face that. So you control yourself, you don't eat too much candy, because in that way, eating it in a controlled way, it won't harm you. Life has it's up and dows, it has problems. What will settle if you have a good life our not is how you deal with these problems
The thing is: the dream food, it won't keep you alive. Eventually, you'll have to wake up to actually eat something, otherwise you'll die. So, no matter how good the dream is, it's just a dream. You're not living it. You're just expereicing the feelings of that thing, but it's not happening.

The baby analogy: The woman might want to have a baby. That imaginary baby I mentioned, in the end, he won't be born andshe'll realize she wa not pregnant. And even if she keeps on dreamning that she is, the baby will never come. Sure, with the baby, other responsabilities will come, but so will the joy of the baby arriving, of the woman actually becoming a mother. She'll be truly able to feel the baby: she'll be able to see him/her gorwing. she'll be able to breast feed him, she'll teach him how to do stuff, etc

The full experience of the event can only come with reality and it's consequences. Food will only keep you alive if you're actually absorbing it's nutirents. You'll only be a mother if you go through all those experiences.
In reality, things are not perfect. You'll have problems. But you'll have to learn how to deal with them. That's what makes it real. But if you learn how to deal with them, you'll have a good life despite those problems. Bu if you run away from them, eventually they'll come back to kick your ass.

 

[NewNarrutoFans]

Every Child is born pure it the society that corrupt our mind and the way we grown up in a miserable way/wrong path which further corrupt other people and the cycle continue.