Penguin
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He did, didn't he. Well, I guess that is why he was exhausted and Tobirama wasn't.
Tobirama vs Mnato
- Thread starter Murasame
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He did, didn't he. Well, I guess that is why he was exhausted and Tobirama wasn't.
Ababeel
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KingHashirama
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un fair match up. Minato skills wise is already below Tobirama. Having 2 edos just makes it more uneven.
Since you restricted BM/KCM.. I suppose this is base edo Minato?
If so, it would be a tough fight, but Tobirama still comes out on top. He knows how to deal with a solely ftg user. Plus that combat exp only helps more.
As for who is faster, Tobirama has faster reaction. Only person to react to Obito's full speed.
Since you restricted BM/KCM.. I suppose this is base edo Minato?
If so, it would be a tough fight, but Tobirama still comes out on top. He knows how to deal with a solely ftg user. Plus that combat exp only helps more.
As for who is faster, Tobirama has faster reaction. Only person to react to Obito's full speed.
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Ababeel
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The denial is strong in this one. XD
End of Days
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controlling and manipulating an edo requires focus, standing still is an incredibly stupid thing to do against minato, he would get a kunai near him and get KO'ed
tobirama himself requires to be a good distance from the edo otherwise he would blow himself up, minato doesnt have anything to worry about edo explosion as with his shushin feats and long range ftg he casually avoids it
when orochimaru summoned his two edos
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hiruzen had already peppered the coffins with shurikens, if it was minato instead of hiruzen with his ftg kunais instead of shurikens he would have been able to blitz orochimaru as the kunais would have been near him
same lthing here, if tobirama summons edos, minato can simply throw his ftg kunais and they would reach the coffins and then he can either use contract seal on them or any other seal, or simply go for tobirama himself
Touken
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I was talking about if he tried to Shunshin away before the explosion.
Hiruzen was warned a full 2 pages before the explosion. [
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] --> [
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]Of course I'm trying to shift it into his favour, I think he wins and I'm debating against Minato. Although I'm not changing manga facts.
- How many battles has he had? I'm pretty sure he's only had 2, and the one right now isn't normal circumstances since he's going up against the Juubi and went up against the Juubito.
Because obviously it takes longer to toss them in different locations as
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means he can't pinpoint where he wants each one to go. Which is why they all
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Fair enough, he can use a clone. But again, the time it takes for Minato to use a clone and spread individual kunai allows Tobirama to set some markings himself.
I'm positive Tobirama isn't going to set his markings in the range of Minato's marked kunai considering Tobirama's seals have a range as well.
The explosion is at least
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which, as we've already established, are at least the size of Gamakichi. That explosion covers many angles, add another one in there covering a different direction and that covers almost all angles. Whichever angle that isn't covered, Tobirama can anticipate and move beforehand, and meet Minato with a sword in his chest.Whole Shinobi Alliance? I remember it being Tobirama, Minato, Naruto & Sasuke fighting Juubito from the start. He hasn't had time to set other seals and so it's obvious he's set them without us realizing, obviously showing he sets seals on his opponents and on the ground seamlessly and without making it obvious.
It took this dude a few seconds to notice Minato's seal on Bee's PINK tentacle. Tobirama's seal is even smaller than Minato's and like I've said before, Minato isn't going to be focusing on the ground while fighting Tobirama. Add the fact that the grass has height and so can hide the seal as the seal has no height.
Not only can he stop it with kunai but he can stop it with Suiton as well. End result? He can't do anything as if he tries, he'll be overwhelmed by the pressure of the Suiton attack.
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There's also no Mokuton to be find on that battlefield which also points to Hashirama not fighting Madara alone.Edit - he also raised his chakra levels to the point where he made the room shake.
If he gets caught in that explosion, he dies.
And the Suiton is not a medium? He's not teleporting to his Suiton as he needs a seal to teleport but he can bring Minato wherever he wants as he's connected to Tobirama's chakra-infused water i.e. Suiton. All Tobirama needs is a seal on something and that can be either himself or his Edo.
It is if he can cover that much distance almost instantly.
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KidGamer65
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Then that's just a waste of time, Minato is obviously going to easily outrun his fodder Edo so added mobility means nothing here. The more time he wastes the larger the distance gets between the bombs and their target.
Ok? Minato can start getting away the moment he sees the initiation for the technique. Hiruzen started moving a panel after Tobirama told them to jump. Hiruzen being warned two pages before the explosion doesn't change anything at all.
-Minato will recognize it due to knowledge.
-Minato will escape.
Its as simple as that. Nothing you said here even prevents him from doing so, especially since Hiruzen started moving a panel before Tobirama started using the technique, which isn't even up to 10 seconds in this instance.
You debating for him doesn't mean you purposely select the worst choice Minato could make despite all logic going against that, simple as that. Especially when there are better choices that can be made.
-Fought against Ay and B
-Fought against Obito twice.
He only did that once against Ay and B, not any other time, so you saying he'd do it based on his performance in one fight makes zero sense. Especially when throwing away all his Kunai is idiotic.
Please explain to me why he would toss all his Kunai away when it makes zero sense.
No one ever said he had to get most of his Kunai on a string and toss them, he can simply get two Kunai at a time and toss them while he runs, in different directions. It is nowhere near as hard or complicated as you are making it seem. The most he would need out at a time is 5, he wouldn't need to stupidly throw his whole set of Kunai, that makes absolutely zero sense and I still haven't gotten a good explanation on why he would do so.
That gives Tobirama no time to set anything as the real Minato can simply get on him.
-He isn't breaking away from Minato since its already confirmed he's slower and the fact Minato can toss Kunai to further his distance by teleporting.
-Not being able to break away from Minato means that he isn't going to set markings, unless he wants to die to a blitz.
Meaning Tobirama can't blitz Minato like you said if markings aren't close enough to the Kunai, cause when he teleports, Minato will be out of his markings range.
Not even sure if serious. Two explosions that move
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aren't going to block off every single escape route in an outdoor arena, that makes absolutely zero sense. How is any of this nonsense even relevant when its already established that Minato can get out of the explosion's AoE just like Hiruzen already did in the manga? Oh wait, its not relevant. Tobirama isn't going to anticipate where he goes cause Minato will out of the blast range before the explosion has even started.
This only works if Minato tries to evade after the explosion, which obviously isn't happening.
Also, lol at him killing Minato with a sword to the chest...smh.
Whether it was the whole Alliance or these guys fighting Juubito, its completely irrelevant as you are comparing a 4 on 1 scenario to a 1 on 1 scenario where Minato's focus will be on Tobirama, unlike Obito whose focus was on all his opponents, obviously he's not going to see Tobirama place a marking all of the time.
@bold: lol, it was off panel, obviously we wouldn't realize. That has no effect on Minato's capability to notice the seals being placed so mentioning this is completely pointless.
Stop trying to relate a 1 on 1 fight to a 5 on 1 fight and say Tobirama will be able to sneakily place markings on the ground when he has to touch the ground first. What in the world do you think Minato will be doing while he's fighting Tobirama and sees him touching the ground? Smh...you aren't making sense here.
The difference is, he didn't actually see Minato place the marking nor did he know that Minato placed the marking.
-Is Minato going to know Tobirama placed a marking after he has seen him touch the ground? Obviously.
-Also, grass in this battlefield has no height here. [
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]They are in a time of war, that isn't surprising.
No Mokuton to be found doesn't mean Hashirama wasn't fighting him alone, don't even know how you can link the two together cause it makes absolutely no sense. If Hashirama was fighting him with help why wouldn't there be Mokuton? That's his main form of attack.
-It was either destroyed.
-He used a Mokuton construct like Mokujin or Mokuryu instead of generic branches.
That isn't evidence that he had help. Not at all. Manga clearly shows that this was a 1 on 1 Hashirama vs Madara from the start. [
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]Except there are plenty of ways he won't get caught.
-Simply jumping is one since we've already seen how high the toads can jump.
lol nope. Not going by the manga.
-Tobirama was making contact with Naruto by touching Hiruzen (who was holding Naruto). And no, he was touching Hiruzen, not Enma as the next page clearly shows. [
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]-Minato was making contact with Kurama through Gamabunta.
Tell me, where is the link between Suiton that has been spit out and Tobirama? Oh wait, there is none. Don't liken it to Naruto's chakra cloaks as he has proven to have a constant link with them as he can remotely control them. Don't liken it to the above two examples as they are something completely different. Unless you can show me the link between Tobirama and his Suiton after its been spit out, this Suiton/Hiraishin nonsense isn't working.
Hiruzen already evaded it, not sure why you are trying to contest Minato, who is much faster than Hiruzen, evading this attack.
Touken
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Because I've already said it goes in one direction. If Minato changes direction and the Edo moves in that same direction too, then there's less of a chance Minato will escape the attack. I didn't say he'd chase after him.
3 panels. And he was still moving even after Tobirama had started the technique. So it took him around 5/6 panels to get to a safe place whereas the technique itself takes around 2/3 panels.
Then please explain to me what you think Minato would do in this scenario. I'm saying he'll toss all his kunai to give him various escape routes, something he needs in this battle.
And what does he achieve by running and sending the 2 kunai in different directions? He can't use those kunai offensively as they'll be used to teleport out of the explosion's blast radius, and so Tobirama and Minato will both meet and he won't blitz Minato with Shunshin, not when Tobirama's reacted to something quicker and is possibly quicker than him in combat speed. The 2 kunai can also both be covered by 2 explosions. So what point are you trying to make?
And Tobirama can easily match that by making his own clones to spread out and place markings.
-He doesn't need to break away, he'll take on Minato then it'll become a taijutsu battle. Shunshin speed is different to combat speed and he's already reacted to Juubito. Minato isn't ever blitzing Tobirama with Shunshin.
His markings have his own range. If Minato places a seal on spot A and Tobirama places a seal a little out of A's range, then if Minato teleports to spot A, Tobirama can port to spot B and blitz Minato as the range of spot B will overlap into spot A's range. Even if he's out a little, Tobirama can easily step forward and kill him then. Minato isn't reacting to something almost instant.
You're acting as if this explosion that goes in one straight path covers no width whatsoever. Again, both the width and the height of the explosion take up at least 10 Juubi fodder which are Gamakichi's size. Minato can't go back otherwise he'll be decimated by the explosion. He can't go right or left because he can't cover that much distance before the explosion goes off. Again, Hiruzen had at least 6 panels. He started moving after Tobirama had used his first paper bomb attack, the one where he later said 'I reckoned this wouldn't be enough to kill you'. Minato will start moving after Tobirama's Edo stabs himself and this is where he has 2 panels to cover the distance I've already talked about. lol, even after the Edo's exploded, it'll reform and Tobirama can use it again and again.
We didn't see him put the marking down even though he's been fighting Obito right from the start. It can't have been off panel because, I'll state again, he hasn't ever been off panel in the fight against Obito. The only time he was was when he was reforming after exploding, and I doubt he had time to start taking a walk and spreading seals around when his team mates are struggling against the Juubi's host.
-Already said, he's not going to make it obvious. Just as how he didn't make it obvious against Obito. Something
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. He could have easily placed a seal on the ground and yet he didn't make it obvious. This is what I meant; he wastes no movement.-Already covered this point, he doesn't make it obvious.
-Top left-hand panel, there's grass there. Top right panel shows tuffs of grass sticking up.
Time of war? lol, when Madara was the only Uchiha to be fought there? Hashirama's face on the bottom left panel shows he's rested and has not fought recently and a page later it shows him with him and Tobirama having a tattered armour and dirt marks on his face. In that battle, Madara decided to take on Hashirama & Tobirama alone, you can tell he's rested too because he doesn't look tattered and he has his new EMS, and we've seen from Sasuke that he had to stay blindfolded for almost an entire day. You can see in the later pages that Madara's the only Uchiha there.
-No Mokuton being around means he didn't have to resort to it because he had help.
Edit: lol, fair point but the toads have a limited summoning time and these Edos can keep reforming and exploding etc.
Because it's infused with his chakra. God, how else do you think he spits out so much water? How else do you think the water that's been spat out can take shape or can be manipulated with Tobirama's hands. There's obviously a direct connection between Tobirama and the Suiton techs he's used.
Show me where he can cover such distance in less than 2 panels.
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KidGamer65
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No there isn't, cause its already shown that someone slower can a considerable distance away from the explosion's
Panel 1, he is warned. [
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]Panel 2, which is 2 pages later, he starts to move and Tobirama starts prepping the technique a second later, before Hiruzen has made it to a safe place. [
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]He started moving a panel before Tobirama started to initiate the technique and still made it to a safe place. Again, I'm seeing NOTHING that prevents Minato from doing the same. Nothing at all.
Yeah, that's idiotic. He can do the same exact thing but without stupidly tossing away all his Kunai.
-He doesn't need to teleport out of the explosion's blast radius as its already a fact he can evade it on foot alone, so yeah, no.
-The 2 Kunai can be covered by 2 explosions? I hope you are talking about a hypothetical second round of explosions, cause Minato isn't going to send his Kunai anywhere near the ongoing explosion.
Those Kunai are for him to Hiraishin away from Tobirama if necessary, that's all, basically what you said he'd do but without tossing out all his Kunai like a tard.
Who in the world said Minato would be blitzing him with Shunshin? I'm talking about a Hiraishin blitz using his Kunai.
Lol? Taijutsu battle? He can go ahead and try that if he wants to die. Minato simply uses his Kunai in tandem with his CQC to evade pretty much every attack he tries and land a Rasengan on him, GG.
-They engage in a Taijutsu battle.
-Minato takes out his Kunai and flips it around Tobirama or simply just flicks it upward a bit, or even throws it behind him.
-Cause of the teleportation radius he teleports behind Tobirama and instakills him, as Tobirama isn't reacting to something instant.
The only way the range for his markings would be overlapping with the range of Minato's Kunai is if the reverse is true as well. He can't place a marking so that he can blitz kill Minato without ending up in the range of Minato's Kunai. So if he goes to place one a little outside A's range, he won't be able to blitz kill Minato as he won't be able to teleport to him.
A can't be in B's range without B also being in A's range. That's how radius's work. Just like two circles. Circle A can't be overlapping Circle B without Circle B being overlapped by Circle A as well.
Smh...if he ends up out a little he won't be able to do any kind of insta kill as he will still have to actually move toward Minato and attack him, giving the latter more than enough time to evade.
Who cares if it covers width? Is it going to cover every possible escape route? No, not when they are outside. Not to mention this is only relevant if he tries to escape AFTER
Bold is completely irrelevant to Minato's capability to evade the attack, Hiruzen moving a second before Tobirama stabbed himself doesn't mean anything at all, as Minato is already much faster than he is so that 1-2 second delay isn't changing anything here. Minato easily evades it before it even goes off, just like Hiruzen did.
Also, stop counting things by panel time, that is definitely not how it works, considering panels don't have a universally set time.
Then Minato simply evades the explosion again, and/or has Bunta prevent the Edos from even moving using
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. Meaning no more Gojo Kibakufuda.Again, referencing what we've seen absolutely has nothing to do with Minato not being able to see Tobirama place a marking in a one on one fight.
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So that isn't obvious? You are telling me in a one on one fight where Minato is focused on Tobirama and only Tobirama he won't see him bend down to touch the ground? Are you really serious with this nonsense? Go stand outside in a plain grassy field and tell me if you see them bend down to touch the ground or not, cause I'm pretty damn sure you will.
Who was even focused on this guy in that page? Huh? Every one was looking at the Amaterasu that just hit Obito, no one was looking at Tobirama hence why no one noticed. Its not that it wasn't obvious, its that he had a distraction.
When are you going to understand that mentioning things from a 4 on 1 fight isn't going to help you justify your arguments for a 1 on 1 scenario.
Alright? That isn't tall grass at all so you have no point here. [
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]Someone here clearly doesn't grasp the concept of war. Since when did war only take place on one battlefield? Answer me that question....don't bother, cause the answer is it doesn't. Smh...Madara and Hashirama started that fight alone and finished it alone, them being there at the end is absolutely no evidence that they helped fight.
Nothing you even said in your post tells me why Tobirama and the rest of the clan helped fight. I'll tell you what the manga shows:
It shows Hashirama and Madara beginning their fight, at the end, the whole clan is with Hashirama after he beat Madara. There is pretty much zero indication that he fought all of them, not to mention the thought of Madara at that point in time being able to take on the whole clan, Hashirama included, for 24 hours is idiotic.
He doesn't need to jump over the explosion, he only needs to jump away from it, which is a simple feat.
It being chakra doesn't mean there's a direct link. How many times does that have to be explained for you to understand it?
The water is manipulated while inside of him and then spat out in that form, that's how its worked for Katon, Suiton and all other Nature Transformations that are used orally from the start, this in no way, shape or form indicates a link between Tobirama and his Suiton. Unless you have some scans of him controlling his Suiton after he's used it.
So, once again, you have failed to show me the direct link between his Suiton after its been spat out and himself so your speculation is nothing more but baseless, false speculation.
Manga has clearly shown that a link is needed, no link means you have no base on this point.
Are we really doing this nonsense?
-Hiruzen already evaded it in canon.
-Minato is faster so he will do the same with ease.
Simple as that. Anything else is twisting or contesting manga fact.
Not to mention he pretty much crossed the distance between the Hokage Mountain and the edge of the village in one go.
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Bogard
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He made 5clones before that like someone stated. Edos chakra regenerate faster than normal. Hokages released the barrier jutsu later on, which means they were not spending chakra anymore to hold it. When they were maintaining the barrier however, since they were constantly maintaining the chakra barrier, the chakra regeneration of Edo tense I couldn't happen since it only happen after some time.
Edo tobirama was then using part of his chakra for the barrier with the rest of his chakra being splitter into the 2clones and he was at the absolute limit, to the point that a simple wind caused by the destruction of the barrier by jubito was enough to cause a trouble to the original body chakra which caused the 2clones to disappear just like Hashiramas clones(who was also at his chakra limit). Only Kcm Minatos clone remained because the clone he created didn't affect him in his chakra reserves while maintaining the barrier.
After the barrier formation, Tobiramas chakra regenerated some time later. He was even blown apart at some point and reappeared with a new formed Edo body
Gold Lightning
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These Tobirama fans and their denial. He's not top 10 and he's been surpassed by Minato. Both Tobiramas FTG and body flicker are inferior to Minatos. Tobirama summons edo fodder while Minato summons boss toads and toads with senjutsu. And this myth of Tobirama having better reaction speed than Minato needs to stop, it's so false and clearly a desperate lie Tobirama fans hold onto.
Touken
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Again, he started moving before Tobirama started prepping for the attack. Won't happen in this scenario because Minato will only start moving after the Edo's have initiated the tech.
A second later? lol, a bit of an understatement. Add the fact that Tobirama had to run to Obito as well so all the tags can wrap round him. Hiruzen had much more than a second. And then you have Tobirama basically telegraphing his attack to give a further warning to Hiruzen.
So 5 kunai, yeah? If he teleports to any, Tobirama can make his Edo teleport to his Kage Bunshin which would be scattered around the battlefield. This would then put Minato back into the blast radius.
I've still seen no evidence suggesting he can evade it using Shunshin. As stated before, Hiruzen had much more than one second because Hiruzen had started moving before Tobirama ran towards Juubito and before he started the technique.
-Send his kunai towards the ongoing explosion? I didn't say that, I said the ones he has already thrown will be in the explosion's blast radius and so he won't be able to teleport to them.
Who in the world said Minato would be blitzing him with Shunshin? I'm talking about a Hiraishin blitz using his Kunai.
Tobirama simply ports to Kage Bunshin if Minato's close to landing a hit on him. The same could be said for Tobirama; he sends a clone towards Minato and due to the teleportation radius, he blitzes him. Not only that, clones are much more versatile than kunai and so can pressurize Minato with Suiton techs, taijutsu etc.
More than enough time? He literally has half a second after Tobirama's ported. Tobirama isn't slow, he's a little faster than Hashirama who's about on par with Madara's speed, and Madara blitzed SM Naruto.
Because if he doesn't cover that width before the explosion goes off, and then the explosion does go off, he'll be caught in it.
Was nowhere near a 1-2 second delay. You can see he starts moving before Tobirama runs towards Juubito and even when Tobirama's there, he says 'I reckoned this wouldn't be enough to kill you' and then starts his technique.
Yeah, I know, but by panels you can judge how long it takes for someone to do something etc. by comparing it to what other people are doing at the time.
Until Bunta's summoning time runs out. Tobirama's clones can simply counter with a Suiton Wall, giving the Edos enough time to move away.
And so Minato is going to take note and keep count of how many times Tobirama places his hand on the ground? I find this highly illogical, Tobirama's clones can also do the same and he won't be able to keep his eye on all of them.
This 1 on 1 scenario can easily become a 4+ on 1 scenario once Tobirama utilizes clones, and these clones can cause distractions.
If the grass has any sort of height then it hides the markings since the seal has no height AT ALL.
lmao, so you're telling me they came to join Hashirama when there are other battlefields out there? For what reason? A little contradictory. Wait, that still points to Tobirama fighting for a full day if after fighting on other battlefields, he came to join Hashirama. Again, there's too much evidence supporting Tobirama having much higher reserves than Minato, whether it be him fighting for a full day, him constantly fighting day in and day out for his entire life, him being a Senju, or him being able to raise his chakra levels high enough to physically affect the room he's in.
The explosion gets bigger and bigger and when it's set off it's almost instant. I doubt Bunta's jumps are quick enough to outpace the explosion.
Once that water's been spat out, Tobirama can easily manipulate it again, thus it becoming infused with his chakra. The only way he's able to manipulate it is by infusing it with his chakra. The water then simply becomes a pre-existing water source that Tobirama can use again and again by infusing his chakra with it. It's how
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Hiruzen had more than enough time to get out of the blast radius, time Minato doesn't have.
Kurenai's dad was able to explain the situation to the younger Jounin in the time it took Minato to get to the edge of the village. Where does it indicate he was at the Hokage Mountain either?
Avinash012
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With current feats Minato beats Tobirama mid dif .
Champ
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I've changed my mind. Now that we know Tobirama has ftg v 2 he is the better user, not only that he can make more clones which can all be suicide bombers like his Edo body was against Obito. If Minato was to kill a clone and with Tobirama great reflexes he could tag Minato like he did a much faster Obito. He would then have his clone teleport and explode killing Minato.
Gold Lightning
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Only Edo Tobirama can blow up his clones