With NO eyes...really? *Naruto 658 spoilers*

[rollin]

So susanoo is just yin release tech..

it's the special yin chakra they inherited from the older son, which came from the sage, which came from the fruit of the god tree

 

[Floydical]

Even if Madara still has his yin chakra and even though Itachi was on the verge of blindness and still using Susanoo, those things do not explain Madara using Susanoo without his eyes.

The manga has directly stated that an overused pair of MS will eventually loose their light and be sealed forever. This directly implies no longer having access to the jutsu. So whether a person has undergone full and complete blindness, which Itachi did not quite degrade to at that point, or whether they have lost their eyes, they should not be able to access MS jutsu.

This is by far the worst ass pull we have seen Kishi commit thus far. It completely goes against everything we have known about MS and eye techniques in general thus far.

 

[Disquiet]

Even if Madara still has his yin chakra and even though Itachi was on the verge of blindness and still using Susanoo, those things do not explain Madara using Susanoo without his eyes.

The manga has directly stated that an overused pair of MS will eventually loose their light and be sealed forever. This directly implies no longer having access to the jutsu. So whether a person has undergone full and complete blindness, which Itachi did not quite degrade to at that point, or whether they have lost their eyes, they should not be able to access MS jutsu.

This is by far the worst ass pull we have seen Kishi commit thus far. It completely goes against everything we have known about MS and eye techniques in general thus far.

@Bold, the thing is, is the double mangeykou unlocking an MS jutsu, or just a justu? I agree that thus far, there's no solid evidence as to why he's able to use it. Regardless, it can't be denied that Kishi still have his chance to explain it.

"I can feel it... Your Mangekyo... Are Choku-tomoe, a straight pattern."

^If Kishi expounds on that, that I'll be the perfect opportunity to explain it right then and there. There's apparently much more to the sharingan than we thought. Let's also not forget that Madara has an EMS (hell the rinnegan actually), that may entail something. Zetsu had also obtained Obito's body which has the rinnegan, Zetsu is Madara's will and even seems to be linked in some way. It all really depends on Kishi's explanation.

 

[6PathsofKami]

Even if Madara still has his yin chakra and even though Itachi was on the verge of blindness and still using Susanoo, those things do not explain Madara using Susanoo without his eyes.

The manga has directly stated that an overused pair of MS will eventually loose their light and be sealed forever. This directly implies no longer having access to the jutsu. So whether a person has undergone full and complete blindness, which Itachi did not quite degrade to at that point, or whether they have lost their eyes, they should not be able to access MS jutsu.

This is by far the worst ass pull we have seen Kishi commit thus far. It completely goes against everything we have known about MS and eye techniques in general thus far.

I agree with this, Itachi didn't go fully blind so it doesn't make sense but I don't think this is something Kishi will just ignore and not explain.

 

[Floydical]

@Bold, the thing is, is the double mangeykou unlocking an MS jutsu, or just a justu? I agree that thus far, there's no solid evidence as to why he's able to use it. Regardless, it can't be denied that Kishi still have his chance to explain it.

"I can feel it... Your Mangekyo... Are Choku-tomoe, a straight pattern."

^If Kishi expounds on that, that I'll be the perfect opportunity to explain it right then and there. There's apparently much more to the sharingan than we thought. Let's also not forget that Madara has an EMS (hell the rinnegan actually), that may entail something. Zetsu had also obtained Obito's body which has the rinnegan, Zetsu is Madara's will and even seems to be linked in some way. It all really depends on Kishi's explanation.

I understand your optimism, but the fact that Madara went out of his way for white Zetsu to bring him the Rinnegan..... its because he cannot access Rinnegan jutsu without it. Considering he needed the eye back..... it makes no sense that he could access any doujutsu at all without it.

The fact you mentioned doujutsu vs. normal jutsu is something worth considering. Doujutsu itself can classify as either the eye itself, MS, EMS, Rinnegan, Byakugan, etc, but it can also directly refer to a technique that is possible to be used once you have said eye. The fact that English is lacking in this department could be a reason. Your saying its possible once you have awakened the eyes its accessible forever? This is possible but it simply goes against everything we have believed up to this point.

It goes hand in hand with Rollin's explanation. Yes the process of awakening the sharingan forces chemical changes in the mind or whatever, but it has been long established that without the eye itself or after experiencing all encompassing darkness, that one would no longer be able to access their jutsu.

If that weren't true, then why would obtaining EMS be as critical as everyone thought it is? If Madara could perform like this without his eyes, then why the flying **** would he be so set on obtaining a pair of EMS in the first place? It simply does not fit into the logic that Kishi has established since the secrets of MS were revealed close to 300 chapters ago.

 

[yuredonitemare]

susano'o is the manifestation of chakra

This is what I'm thinking.. Plus their are stages to Susano, maybe he was only able to manifest it in its most basic form?

 

[Cocytus]

you watch, it´s going to be some ass-pull like kabuto gave the hashi face on his chest sharingan-eyes just in case^^

 

[Flame Dragon]

If you just need chakra for Susanoo then why Sasuke went blind when overusing Susanoo? :erm:

 

[Senju Bean]

Prime Hiruzen can use Susanoo without Sharingan. So it can be done.

 

[Disquiet]

I understand your optimism, but the fact that Madara went out of his way for white Zetsu to bring him the Rinnegan..... its because he cannot access Rinnegan jutsu without it. Considering he needed the eye back..... it makes no sense that he could access any doujutsu at all without it.

The fact you mentioned doujutsu vs. normal jutsu is something worth considering. Doujutsu itself can classify as either the eye itself, MS, EMS, Rinnegan, Byakugan, etc, but it can also directly refer to a technique that is possible to be used once you have said eye. The fact that English is lacking in this department could be a reason. Your saying its possible once you have awakened the eyes its accessible forever? This is possible but it simply goes against everything we have believed up to this point.

It goes hand in hand with Rollin's explanation. Yes the process of awakening the sharingan forces chemical changes in the mind or whatever, but it has been long established that without the eye itself or after experiencing all encompassing darkness, that one would no longer be able to access their jutsu.

If that weren't true, then why would obtaining EMS be as critical as everyone thought it is? If Madara could perform like this without his eyes, then why the flying **** would he be so set on obtaining a pair of EMS in the first place? It simply does not fit into the logic that Kishi has established since the secrets of MS were revealed close to 300 chapters ago.

I'm thinking that it's more viable for him to battle with the eye in his own possession, rather than with no eyes at all (he's still blind) and using the abilities from a remote source. On top of that, I wonder if the rinnegan being in a weaker body (compared to Madara) limits the abilities the latter could use from that body? Ater all, Madara simply used an MS technique.

I believe that MS techniques can't be used once the eye is gone. However, I think once the double mangekyou (MS techniques) is awoken, it unlocks a jutsu (Susano'o) that can potentially be used independently of the eyes. As many stated, Sasuke loss Susano'o once his vision was impaired. Itachi used his full Susano'o despite his impaired vision. It could be that Itachi was much more adept at using his Yin chakra. Sasuke's body had troubling handling it (kage summit) compared to a half-blind, weak-bodied Itachi. Certainly, there was an obvious skill difference concerning the manifestation and manipulation of the Yin chakra.

Madara has an EMS. On top of that, he has senju DNA. Yin and Yang. It was said that the S06P could create form from nothing by utilizing Yin and Yang. I wouldn't be surprised if Madara "mastered" both the Yin and Yang chakra, could he not manifest Susano'o? We've also seen Sasuke's susano'o level increase when his hatred elevated. Obito then said his body is responding to his hatred. Did his genutsu get stronger? What about amaterasu? I know we don't know, but it doesn't seem likely nor was it remotely implied. The only thing we got from that is that his Susano'o responded to his body. We're focusing on MS techs, and saying Kishi has been misleading (I can understand this perspective by the way), but when we stop and think about it, did Kishi ever give details about Susano'o? In fact, the first time we'e seen it, the user said one can only use it by awakening the double mangeykou (I know he said ama+Tsuku, but I'm sure you're aware of the controversy surrounding that, I'd rather avoid that right now). Wait, why only a "double" mangeykou? Shisui couldn't have NEVER unlocked it? What's going on with the chakra inside the brain?


If we'd contemplate it, we'd realize Kishi still have to explain Susano'o itself. Right now, we're confused over what we assumed.