ShaneEyyy's Tier List V2

[SeriousDogg]

LOL Juubito is not on the level of the SO6P

and Kaguya is God level.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Here's my tier list, you can pretty much see the changes that I would make from it:

All Characters are counted in their strongest form we've seen. For example Minato is counted as his Edo reincarnated self, Obito is counted as his Juubi Jin self, etc...

Okami
Shinobi that have the power of Juubi

1. Kaguya Ōtsutsuki-hime
2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3. Uchiha Obito

History's Strongest Shinobi
The Strongest character who haven't become gods through the Juubi's powers

1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara
3. Uzamaki Naruto
4. Namikaze Minato


History's Most Hax'd
Lacking the raw might of the above Shinobi, but nonetheless in possession of some of the most OP abilities, Jutsu, and combos in the Naruto world

1, Yakushi Kabuto
2. Orochimaru
3. Uzamaki Nagato
4. Shimura Danzo
5. Ryōtenbin no Ōnoki
6. Mū
7. Ginkaku + Kinkaku
8. Senju Tobirama
9. Uchiha Itachi
10. Nindaime Mizukage
11. Killer B
12. Yagura


Kage Class
Those who has the power to be comparable to Kages, but not quite enough to reach a higher tier

1. Jiraiya
2. Senju Tsunade
3. Maito Gai
4. Hatake Kakashi
5. Akasuna no Sasori
6. Gaara
7. Yondaime Kazekage
8. Hoshigaki Kisame
9. Mei
10. Ei
11. Old Hiruzen

Top Jonin
The Strongest Shinobi of the Jonin, class though not quite strong enough to reach the above Tier

1. Katō Dan
2. Kitsuchi
3. Hyuuga Haishi
4. Hyuuga Haizashi
5. Haruno Sakura
6. Kakuzu
7. Hanzo
8. Deidara
9. Yamato
10. Konan
11. Darui
12. Mifune
13. Hidan
14. Etc... All I feel like doing for now.

Yeah Zabuza should Move a tier lower, i dont think he should be above the likes of Lee, Neji, Temari, Kankuro, Chouji when guys around these level either most definetely beat him or have more than than fair chances. He is more versatile? Who cares Gai is solid kage tier with taijutsu and Gaara has the title with sand manipulation. İn fact the whole low kate tier should be looked over again.

I'll counter you later, but let me just say if you think Kankuro compares that is laughable. Just look at how much the data book divides them

No. Kitsuchi beats him most of the time. Plus there is no way in hell Zabuza is fending off the head of the Samurai with one hand. Mifune is too fast. Don't get mad because your favorite character moves down a spot. He belongs in the high jounin class by feats and portrayal. So Zabuza starts out in trees now? That is rich.

I'll counter you guys later tonight

 

[paratise]

Databook is invalid as balls here.
Databook also says Iruka is above Lee. It also says Asuma has a 32,5 while Gaara and Gai are chilling at 29-31 levels yet bars above him. why Asuma is not above mid-kage and above Gai and Gaara for the same reaons for Zabuza?
Isn't Asuma is more versatile than them? Oh and have higher points. Has almost same stat as Gai in tai with 4.5 and Gaara in ninjutsu with 4.5.

I don't care much either for anyway. Ninja like Lee, Neji, Temari are type of fighters who have sharpened skills in less spectrums but high levels. It is not about versatility all the time. Even author makes Lee a demi-God of a taijutsu user who spams gated attacks like no tomorrow his stats can be nothing more than 28 because some people are good with what they are in levels enough to cover other needs.

Zabuza has higher stats? It is not something to cling on much.
Versatility? Like i said, some people are sharp in certain areas.

Laughable to compare Kankuro? Whatever. There are characters who are component with their powers and skills.

 

[Touken]

Those who bring up the databook confuse me.

People still believe Zabuza's above Lee?

 

[TurrinB]

Those who bring up the databook confuse me.

People still believe Zabuza's above Lee?

We haven't seen enough from Lee to know who he's above. All we know is his DB III Stats, and some increases to speed and Taijutsu would not help against Zabuza since Demonic Mist will blind Lee, and than Lee is essentially screwed. Now granted Lee may be above Zabuza, but if he is it has to do w/ stuff we haven't seen yet, like potentially Lee having mastered opening more gates and moves like Gai's morning peacock, which could be used to clear the mist while also attacking Zabuza w/ it's AOE.

Honestly Zabuza's placement isn't bad in the OP's tier list. Zabuza is often underestimated due to being defeated by Part I Kakashi, but Kakashi just so happened to have very good skills to counter Zabuza's silent killing method (his ninja hounds) and still had to suffer several injuries for that to work. Not many Jonin Ninja both have a way to deal w/ the mist and defeat Zabuza. Usually it's one or the other. For example you got sensors like Ino that could navigate their way through the mist, but until you start getting to Kage level, these sensors are mostly support types that wouldn't stand a chance against Zabuza in combat. Like-wise you have the Inzuka Clan Ninja that could deal w/ the mist through sense of smell, but most of them lack the feats to suggest they have any chance of beating Zabuza. Plus even sense of smell detection can be countered, if Zabuza realizes in time the shinobi he's up against has that method. Considering Inuzuka fight w/ their Dogs already out on the field and are well established Konohagukuru clan most likely Zabuza would know he needs to counter smell detect to get max efficiency out of his mist. To do that all he'd really need to do is create some Mizu-Bushin. So even the best Inzuka (Kiba) would still probably struggle w/ Zabuza, and at this point were talking about someone who is very equipped to dealing w/ the Mist.

Though calling the Zabuza -Tier Kage level certainly does not make sense. Zabuza is an above average Jonin, but isn't stepping to any Kage.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Databook is invalid as balls here.
Databook also says Iruka is above Lee. It also says Asuma has a 32,5 while Gaara and Gai are chilling at 29-31 levels yet bars above him. why Asuma is not above mid-kage and above Gai and Gaara for the same reaons for Zabuza?
Isn't Asuma is more versatile than them? Oh and have higher points. Has almost same stat as Gai in tai with 4.5 and Gaara in ninjutsu with 4.5.

I don't care much either for anyway. Ninja like Lee, Neji, Temari are type of fighters who have sharpened skills in less spectrums but high levels. It is not about versatility all the time. Even author makes Lee a demi-God of a taijutsu user who spams gated attacks like no tomorrow his stats can be nothing more than 28 because some people are good with what they are in levels enough to cover other needs.

Zabuza has higher stats? It is not something to cling on much.
Versatility? Like i said, some people are sharp in certain areas.

Laughable to compare Kankuro? Whatever. There are characters who are component with their powers and skills.

I didn't mean that because he has higher stats it makes him automatically stronger, I'm saying the gab between their overall strength is pretty significant.

But listen here, you have convinced me enough for me to come to another conclusion. I think I may have found a solution that we can both agree on. Before I offer this solution, I have one question for you. Why are you so fixated on moving Zabuza down but not Darui, Hiashi, Kimi, Mangetsu, etc. when they are about all on the same level? I don't understand that.

We haven't seen enough from Lee to know who he's above. All we know is his DB III Stats, and some increases to speed and Taijutsu would not help against Zabuza since Demonic Mist will blind Lee, and than Lee is essentially screwed. Now granted Lee may be above Zabuza, but if he is it has to do w/ stuff we haven't seen yet, like potentially Lee having mastered opening more gates and moves like Gai's morning peacock, which could be used to clear the mist while also attacking Zabuza w/ it's AOE.

Honestly Zabuza's placement isn't bad in the OP's tier list. Zabuza is often underestimated due to being defeated by Part I Kakashi, but Kakashi just so happened to have very good skills to counter Zabuza's silent killing method (his ninja hounds) and still had to suffer several injuries for that to work. Not many Jonin Ninja both have a way to deal w/ the mist and defeat Zabuza. Usually it's one or the other. For example you got sensors like Ino that could navigate their way through the mist, but until you start getting to Kage level, these sensors are mostly support types that wouldn't stand a chance against Zabuza in combat. Like-wise you have the Inzuka Clan Ninja that could deal w/ the mist through sense of smell, but most of them lack the feats to suggest they have any chance of beating Zabuza. Plus even sense of smell detection can be countered, if Zabuza realizes in time the shinobi he's up against has that method. Considering Inuzuka fight w/ their Dogs already out on the field and are well established Konohagukuru clan most likely Zabuza would know he needs to counter smell detect to get max efficiency out of his mist. To do that all he'd really need to do is create some Mizu-Bushin. So even the best Inzuka (Kiba) would still probably struggle w/ Zabuza, and at this point were talking about someone who is very equipped to dealing w/ the Mist.

Though calling the Zabuza -Tier Kage level certainly does not make sense. Zabuza is an above average Jonin, but isn't stepping to any Kage.

I put him as Low Kage, which is below Kage level behind any Kage shown in the series. But I know what you're saying

No. Kitsuchi beats him most of the time. Plus there is no way in hell Zabuza is fending off the head of the Samurai with one hand. Mifune is too fast. Don't get mad because your favorite character moves down a spot. He belongs in the high jounin class by feats and portrayal. So Zabuza starts out in trees now? That is rich.

Zabuza beats him close-mid range while Kitsuchi has a better chance long range.

Why couldn't he fend off Mifune with 1 hand for a couple seconds? He mainly uses just 1 hand anyway, has his huge sword to keep some distance, and has the far more superior physical prowess to hold Mifune. Of course he wouldn't be able to beat Mifune with 1 hand, he just needs to intercept his attack for about three seconds.

Yeah Zabuza does start out hidden in trees because he is an assassin, why wouldn't he?? Lol that's what he does

Also by his portrayal, he is above the high jounin tier with his hype.

BTW I am bringing Zabuza down

Here's my tier list, you can pretty much see the changes that I would make from it:

All Characters are counted in their strongest form we've seen. For example Minato is counted as his Edo reincarnated self, Obito is counted as his Juubi Jin self, etc...

Okami
Shinobi that have the power of Juubi

1. Kaguya Ōtsutsuki-hime
2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3. Uchiha Obito

History's Strongest Shinobi
The Strongest character who haven't become gods through the Juubi's powers

1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara
3. Uzamaki Naruto
4. Namikaze Minato


History's Most Hax'd
Lacking the raw might of the above Shinobi, but nonetheless in possession of some of the most OP abilities, Jutsu, and combos in the Naruto world

1, Yakushi Kabuto
2. Orochimaru
3. Uzamaki Nagato
4. Shimura Danzo
5. Ryōtenbin no Ōnoki
6. Mū
7. Ginkaku + Kinkaku
8. Senju Tobirama
9. Uchiha Itachi
10. Nindaime Mizukage
11. Killer B
12. Yagura


Kage Class
Those who has the power to be comparable to Kages, but not quite enough to reach a higher tier

1. Jiraiya
2. Senju Tsunade
3. Maito Gai
4. Hatake Kakashi
5. Akasuna no Sasori
6. Gaara
7. Yondaime Kazekage
8. Hoshigaki Kisame
9. Mei
10. Ei
11. Old Hiruzen

Top Jonin
The Strongest Shinobi of the Jonin, class though not quite strong enough to reach the above Tier

1. Katō Dan
2. Kitsuchi
3. Hyuuga Haishi
4. Hyuuga Haizashi
5. Haruno Sakura
6. Kakuzu
7. Hanzo
8. Deidara
9. Yamato
10. Konan
11. Darui
12. Mifune
13. Hidan
14. Etc... All I feel like doing for now.

You forgot Zabuza

 

[paratise]

I didn't mean that because he has higher stats it makes him automatically stronger, I'm saying the gab between their overall strength is pretty significant.

Wut then?

But listen here, you have convinced me enough for me to come to another conclusion. I think I may have found a solution that we can both agree on. Before I offer this solution, I have one question for you. Why are you so fixated on moving Zabuza down but not Darui, Hiashi, Kimi, Mangetsu, etc. when they are about all on the same level? I don't understand that.

Kimi > Zabuza (is there someone that Kimi can't beat but Zabuza can? Besides Kimimaro would beat Zabuza without much of trouble)
Hiashi > Zabuza (Same as above, he is an advanced and axperienced version of Neji. has an attack that stopped juubi's palm)
Mangetsu > Zabuza (mastered all swords. has hydrification technique nullifies physical attacks. barely had feast according to paneltime though)

Just to clear things out.

 

[TurrinB]

@ShaneEyyy

All you have to say about my tier list is I forgot Zabuza lol. Anyway, he'd be on the same tier as Hidan.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

Wut then?


Kimi > Zabuza (is there someone that Kimi can't beat but Zabuza can? Besides Kimimaro would beat Zabuza without much of trouble)
Hiashi > Zabuza (Same as above, he is an advanced and axperienced version of Neji. has an attack that stopped juubi's palm)
Mangetsu > Zabuza (mastered all swords. has hydrification technique nullifies physical attacks. barely had feast according to paneltime though)

Just to clear things out.

@ShaneEyyy

All you have to say about my tier list is I forgot Zabuza lol. Anyway, he'd be on the same tier as Hidan.

What do you mean "wut then?", what are you asking me?


Zabuza = Kimi.....to answer your question, Zabuza can beat Darui and Hidan and they both beat Kimi. If you're saying he would beat Zabuza without much trouble, you are underestimating him. Kimi will have no idea where to attack when the mist is up and won't use his bone forest because to our knowledge, he can only use it when in V2 state and he doesn't use that right off the bat. He will be fooled by mizubunshins and more than likely be caught in a water prison. After the prison, his V2 state will probably break it then it's over. It would definitely be high diff for kimi


Hiashi = Zabuza. They both seem to be portrayed as elite jounin....I don't think Hiashi's feats really puts him above a tier higher than Zabuza...


Mangetsu = Zabuza. Wait so because Mangetsu mastered all the swords he is above Zabuza? Mangetsu mastered the swords, Zabuza mastered Silent Killing (noted that no one even comes close to him). Mangetsu has shown hydrification, Zabuza has shown Water Clone, Water Prison, Water Dragon, and Giant Vortex Jutsu. Zabuza also has shown more feats. Plus, he was an Anbu and Mangetsu wasn't. So I don't really see how you can say Mangetsu is a tier higher, seems ignorant to me.

 

[TurrinB]

Hiashi = Zabuza. They both seem to be portrayed as elite jounin....I don't think Hiashi's feats really puts him above a tier higher than Zabuza...

I wouldn't say they are equal, but the same tier is okay.

Mangetsu = Zabuza. Wait so because Mangetsu mastered all the swords he is above Zabuza? Mangetsu mastered the swords, Zabuza mastered Silent Killing (noted that no one even comes close to him). Mangetsu has shown hydrification, Zabuza has shown Water Clone, Water Prison, Water Dragon, and Giant Vortex Jutsu. Zabuza also has shown more feats. Plus, he was an Anbu and Mangetsu wasn't. So I don't really see how you can say Mangetsu is a tier higher, seems ignorant to me.

The thing is did Zabuza ever have the Scroll that allowed him to summon all of the different swords? If he didn't being able to use all the swords really isn't that useful in 1v1 battles, only when fighting w/ the other swordsmen. On the other hand if Mangetsu is in a battle 1v1, he could summon and use the other swords, which makes him much tougher to take down than Zabuza w/ just the cloud-strife look alike sword. Plus Mangetsu has Suika no Jutsu, which makes him much tougher to take down and allows him to kill anyone w/ a touch by dehydrating them. As for Silent Killing, Mangetsu obviously had this ability as he was fighting proficiently within the Demonic Mist. I also wouldn't be surprised if he can cast the Mist, considering it is a mere D-Rank Jutsu and it's pretty much Kirigakure's signature Jutsu.

Mangetsu could very well be Kage level due to the fact that if he can Cast Demonic Mist + Suika no Jutsu + Samehada to absorb techniques/Chakra and regen him, he's nigh indestructible.

 

[paratise]

What do you mean "wut then?", what are you asking me?

I meant this:

I didn't mean that because he has higher stats it makes him automatically stronger, I'm saying the gab between their overall strength is pretty significant.

If databooks does not make Zabuza overall stronger, the gap between them is not significant.

Z

abuza = Kimi.....to answer your question, Zabuza can beat Darui and Hidan and they both beat Kimi. If you're saying he would beat Zabuza without much trouble, you are underestimating him. Kimi will have no idea where to attack when the mist is up and won't use his bone forest because to our knowledge, he can only use it when in V2 state and he doesn't use that right off the bat. He will be fooled by mizubunshins and more than likely be caught in a water prison. After the prison, his V2 state will probably break it then it's over. It would definitely be high diff for kimi

Kimi would beat Darui and sawarabi no mai destroys the ground thus ritual; so he most likely beat Hidan.
Kimi fought against 1000 kyuubi enhanced Naruto clones, Lee and SRA Gaara and remains undefeated against these opponents wince he died because of sicness. To be honest, i don't see Zabuza close to level of that Gaara yet Kimi fought equally and could have defeat him.

Kimi does not waste a single movement in his fighting style; and he can increase the amount of spiked bones to block Zabuza's attacks, nothing in Zabuza's arsenal is putting a dent on Kimimaro -kenjutsu, taijutsu, suiton- yet he will be pushed to high diff? Miju bunshins are not fooling anyone when Kimimaro with a single sword obliterated 1000 kyuubi enhanced Naruto clones wo much of trouble. Water prison only happen when it is on the body of water and the caster makes a direct contact. How Zabuza can do that when he can get spiked by bones in the moment of close contact?

Hiashi = Zabuza. They both seem to be portrayed as elite jounin....I don't think Hiashi's feats really puts him above a tier higher than Zabuza...

He is above Neji; who is on par with Zabuza. That's enough to know and the guy had a strike that pushed back Juubi's arm and owned 20 ninja with his defense.

Mangetsu = Zabuza. Wait so because Mangetsu mastered all the swords he is above Zabuza? Mangetsu mastered the swords, Zabuza mastered Silent Killing (noted that no one even comes close to him). Mangetsu has shown hydrification, Zabuza has shown Water Clone, Water Prison, Water Dragon, and Giant Vortex Jutsu. Zabuza also has shown more feats. Plus, he was an Anbu and Mangetsu wasn't. So I don't really see how you can say Mangetsu is a tier higher, seems ignorant to me.

Zabuza has more feats; but Mangetsu's hydrafication is pretty hacked in levels nullifies almost every physical attack plus mastering all swords is nothing lowling.
Zabuza was Anbu but Mangetu was not? Anbu is not the brightest thing to be i recall them going down like flies most of the time.
Lets don't get into ignorance here...

 

[Icelerate]

Zabuza, Hidan, Darui and Kimimaro should all drop to high jounin tier.

 

[paratise]

Zabuza, Hidan, Darui and Kimimaro should all drop to high jounin tier.

That's another option.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

I wouldn't say they are equal, but the same tier is okay.


The thing is did Zabuza ever have the Scroll that allowed him to summon all of the different swords? If he didn't being able to use all the swords really isn't that useful in 1v1 battles, only when fighting w/ the other swordsmen. On the other hand if Mangetsu is in a battle 1v1, he could summon and use the other swords, which makes him much tougher to take down than Zabuza w/ just the cloud-strife look alike sword. Plus Mangetsu has Suika no Jutsu, which makes him much tougher to take down and allows him to kill anyone w/ a touch by dehydrating them. As for Silent Killing, Mangetsu obviously had this ability as he was fighting proficiently within the Demonic Mist. I also wouldn't be surprised if he can cast the Mist, considering it is a mere D-Rank Jutsu and it's pretty much Kirigakure's signature Jutsu.

Mangetsu could very well be Kage level due to the fact that if he can Cast Demonic Mist + Suika no Jutsu + Samehada to absorb techniques/Chakra and regen him, he's nigh indestructible.

That post was for caterpillar not u sorry. I meant to tell you your tier list is pretty good.

Anyways, let me make things clear to you.

1. Kabuto may have summoned the scroll (just like he did with Zabuza) and Mangetsu may have been just the one to use it to summon the scrolls. Kind of like how he made Pakura and Gari summon the swordsmen. It isn't their jutsu, they were just controlled to use it.

2. The swords that weren't able to be summoned were the swords in someone's use. If all of the swordsmen had their swords, which at the time Mangetsu was alive, they did, Mangetsu was limited to using Hiramekarei. The feat of Mangetsu mastering all the swords shows his mastery of Kenjutsu. It doesn't mean he used every single one, that's absurd.

Why are you ignoring the fact that Mangetsu or any ninja in history never even came close to Zabuza in Silent Killing? You say since Mangetsu is the superior swordsmen he moves up, but since Zabuza's the superior silent killer, why doesn't he move up?

You say Mangetsu is efficient in fighting in the mist, just not as well as Zabuza. Well, Zabuza is efficient one if not several of the swords, just not as efficient as Mangetsu.

Mangetsu has Hydrification, Zabuza has Water Clone, Water Prison, Water Dragon, and Giant Vortex Jutsu. In other words, he has more tactical and offensive jutsu. At least shown by feats he does.

You say Mangetsu can use the mist? Well, you're wrong. The reason why Kakashi and his division wanted to seal Zabuza first was to get rid of the mist. If all the other swordsmen could use the mist, they wouldn't just go after Zabuza and claim they need to take him out because the division is at a huge disadvantage with it.


So here, Mangetsu has Hiramekarei, inferior skill in SK, and Hydrification and Zabuza has Kubikiribocho, by far superior skills in SK, Hidden Mist Jutsu, tactical Suiton, and large scale Suiton.

How are they not even? Please try to see it my way.

Zabuza, Hidan, Darui and Kimimaro should all drop to high jounin tier.

Zabuza can beat Chiyo and beats Kitsuchi half the time as you said. They are all in the same tier. However, I have found a solution that we can all agree on. I will offer this solution after caterpillar and I finish our discussion.

caterpillar;13915102]I meant this:


If databooks does not make Zabuza overall stronger, the gap between them is not significant.

They don't always make an opponent stronger, but when the gap is that big, it's pretty evident he's stronger. It's Kishi's word, not yours.

Kimi would beat Darui and sawarabi no mai destroys the ground thus ritual; so he most likely beat Hidan.
Kimi fought against 1000 kyuubi enhanced Naruto clones, Lee and SRA Gaara and remains undefeated against these opponents wince he died because of sicness. To be honest, i don't see Zabuza close to level of that Gaara yet Kimi fought equally and could have defeat him.

So Kimi is just going to use sawarabi no mai right off the back? Laughable. To our knowledge, he can only use it when he goes V2 state and he doesn't do that in the beginning of the match. Also, Kimi has no reason to start out with that in the beginning, he will start out with his dances. Darui's Black Lightning destroys him. Hidan, with the length of his weapon can obviously get a drop of blood from Kimi. This should be obvious because even Lee who had a 3.5/5 landed a kick on him. Hidan has a 4.5/5 and if Lee could land a kick, Hidan can land a scratch. This should be common sense.

Kimi does not waste a single movement in his fighting style; and he can increase the amount of spiked bones to block Zabuza's attacks, nothing in Zabuza's arsenal is putting a dent on Kimimaro -kenjutsu, taijutsu, suiton- yet he will be pushed to high diff? Miju bunshins are not fooling anyone when Kimimaro with a single sword obliterated 1000 kyuubi enhanced Naruto clones wo much of trouble. Water prison only happen when it is on the body of water and the caster makes a direct contact. How Zabuza can do that when he can get spiked by bones in the moment of close contact?

Zabuza loses to Kimi, ok. It definitely won't be easy for Kimi though. Don't underrate Zabuza, he wasn't a Legendary Swordsmen for nothing.

He is above Neji; who is on par with Zabuza. That's enough to know and the guy had a strike that pushed back Juubi's arm and owned 20 ninja with his defense.

Zabuza is stronger than Neji, Neji is just a bad match up for him because of his Byakugon. Zabuza is on par with Hiashi. Also, Neji is a gifted ninja in the clan, who was said by Hizashi to have the strongest kekkei genkai. I wouldn't be surprised if Neji is on part with Hiashi, with Hiashi having the slight advantage. I wouldn't make Zabuza and Hiashi a tier higher than Neji though, so I have another idea that I will tell you soon after we finish this topic.

Zabuza has more feats; but Mangetsu's hydrafication is pretty hacked in levels nullifies almost every physical attack plus mastering all swords is nothing lowling.
Zabuza was Anbu but Mangetu was not? Anbu is not the brightest thing to be i recall them going down like flies most of the time.
Lets don't get into ignorance here...

Read my paragraph about Zabuza being on par with Mangetsu to TurrinB. That will probably convince you.

They may go down easy, but they are hyped up to be the best of the best. You're telling me not to be ignorant here, yet you're saying Zabuza being an Anbu is nothing because they go down easy and it's not bright to be one because of that...lol. Mangetsu not being an Anbu and Zabuza being one should imply that hey, maybe Zabuza is on par with Mangetsu because his abilities were so great, he was recruited by the anbu and led the Hidden Mist's Assassination Unit.

I don't uinderstand why it is so hard to accept that Zabuza and Mangetsu may be on par when we have seen a shit load more feats from Zabuza.

 

[Penguin]

I cannot take this guy seriously if he thinks Neji or Hiashi cannot beat Zabuza.

Mangetsu beats Zabuza mid/high diff. Zabuza has nothing to beat him with.

 

[TurrinB]

That post was for caterpillar not u sorry. I meant to tell you your tier list is pretty good.

Anyways, let me make things clear to you.

1. Kabuto may have summoned the scroll (just like he did with Zabuza) and Mangetsu may have been just the one to use it to summon the scrolls. Kind of like how he made Pakura and Gari summon the swordsmen. It isn't their jutsu, they were just controlled to use it.

I don't think Kabuto made the scroll, it seemed like something that the Mist Swordsmen would have.

The swords that weren't able to be summoned were the swords in someone's use. If all of the swordsmen had their swords, which at the time Mangetsu was alive, they did, Mangetsu was limited to using Hiramekarei. The feat of Mangetsu mastering all the swords shows his mastery of Kenjutsu. It doesn't mean he used every single one, that's absurd.

I don't really see much point in Mangetsu mastering all of the swords if he only used one of them. I would think Mangetsu would use more than 1 sword when its necessary and they have access to them. As for the Scroll well yeah it depends on which swords he had access to at the time, but I feel as if the other swordsmen would lend their blades to Mangetsu when it was necessary as he seems to be their leader. Plus even if restricted to one sword Hiramekarei >>> Zabuza's Cloud strife blade.

Why are you ignoring the fact that Mangetsu or any ninja in history never even came close to Zabuza in Silent Killing? You say since Mangetsu is the superior swordsmen he moves up, but since Zabuza's the superior silent killer, why doesn't he move up?

Was Zabuza called the best at silent killing? But yeah I don't think Mangetsu moves up because of his swordsmenship I think he may move up due to how difficult he would be to kill. Again imagine the difficulty to kill someone w/ Suika no Jutsu, Demonic Mist + Silent Killing, and Samehada. Realistically there are very few Ninja I can see standing any chance of killing someone like that, and most are Top Kages.

Mangetsu has Hydrification, Zabuza has Water Clone, Water Prison, Water Dragon, and Giant Vortex Jutsu. In other words, he has more tactical and offensive jutsu. At least shown by feats he does.

Honestly Suika no Jutsu is much better than any of those things as it makes you nigh unkillable and apparently also gives you a one-hit KO, where you just need to touch the enemy to kill them.

You say Mangetsu can use the mist? Well, you're wrong. The reason why Kakashi and his division wanted to seal Zabuza first was to get rid of the mist. If all the other swordsmen could use the mist, they wouldn't just go after Zabuza and claim they need to take him out because the division is at a huge disadvantage with it.

They went after Zabuza because he was the one casting the Mist at that point. So they needed to target him first. That really doesn't prove Mangetsu can't cast the Mist, just that Zabuza was the one to do so at that time. As for why Zabuza casted the Mist rather than Mangetsu, well perhaps Zabuza is simply better w/ the Jutsu than Mangetsu, where he can cover a larger radious w/ the Mist than Mangetsu, which is key in a battlefield wide setting.

So here, Mangetsu has Hiramekarei, inferior skill in SK, and Hydrification and Zabuza has Kubikiribocho, by far superior skills in SK, Hidden Mist Jutsu, tactical Suiton, and large scale Suiton.

How are they not even? Please try to see it my way.

Because Mangetsu could literally just stand there and Zabuza wouldn't be able to anything to him due to Suika no Jutsu. And Hiramekarei >>> Kubikiribocho. Plus Mangetsu can utilize all of the swords, so if he ever wielded Samehada he would be hax as hell.

 

[paratise]

I cannot take this guy seriously if he thinks Neji or Hiashi cannot beat Zabuza.

Mangetsu beats Zabuza mid/high diff. Zabuza has nothing to beat him with.

He thinks they would beat Zabuza, but Neji is just a bad matchup and Zabuza is overall stronger.
I say they are around the same level.
It is easy to hype a character's abilities; when you count out everyone seems strong.
"Zabuza is swordsman, Anbu, has suiton, kenjutsu etc..."

Well Neji is a prodigy of a strong clan, one of the best taijutsu users, high speed and reaction time, has absoulte defense, eyes that grants sensory/chakra-genjutsu distinguishing, airpalms etc. Plus the people count they beat are the same level if Neji's aren't higher. Neji also can beat Darui, Kitsuchi (in same close distance), Chiyo; or unike Zabuza he can beat Mangetsu, Shino, Kiba possibly Kimimaro etc. Nothing leads me to believe othervise in their levels.

Anyway Shane i dropped the subject here. You beleve what you like, and i have my own opinion. Agree to disagree if you like.

 

[ShaneEyyy]

He thinks they would beat Zabuza, but Neji is just a bad matchup and Zabuza is overall stronger.
I say they are around the same level.
It is easy to hype a character's abilities; when you count out everyone seems strong.
"Zabuza is swordsman, Anbu, has suiton, kenjutsu etc..."

Well Neji is a prodigy of a strong clan, one of the best taijutsu users, high speed and reaction time, has absoulte defense, eyes that grants sensory/chakra-genjutsu distinguishing, airpalms etc. Plus the people count they beat are the same level if Neji's aren't higher. Neji also can beat Darui, Kitsuchi (in same close distance), Chiyo; or unike Zabuza he can beat Mangetsu, Shino, Kiba possibly Kimimaro etc. Nothing leads me to believe othervise in their levels.

Anyway Shane i dropped the subject here. You beleve what you like, and i have my own opinion. Agree to disagree if you like.

There is some people who underrate Zabuza and just can't see him as being stronger simply because he was introduced in Part 1 and there's people who look into Zabuza's abilities and consider why he was so hyped. They will never change their minds so I do agree to disagree. You think Kiba and Shino can beat Zabuza.... also Neji has no way of hitting Mangetsu so no he doesn't beat him


Here is what my solution is that I'm kind of surprised you didn't ask what it was.

What if I make a tier between High Jounin and Low Kage and call it "Top of the line Jounin Tier" and moved Zabuza, Hidan, Darui, Kimi, etc. down to it? That way, Zabuza and those guys aren't that high above Neji, Lee, and Choji. I think that's a good idea, what do you think?

TurrinB;13916976]I don't think Kabuto made the scroll, it seemed like something that the Mist Swordsmen would have.

This was just ignorant. I never said Kabuto made the scroll, I said he may have summoned it.

I don't really see much point in Mangetsu mastering all of the swords if he only used one of them.

Exactly! That is exactly the point.

I would think Mangetsu would use more than 1 sword when its necessary and they have access to them. As for the Scroll well yeah it depends on which swords he had access to at the time, but I feel as if the other swordsmen would lend their blades to Mangetsu when it was necessary as he seems to be their leader. Plus even if restricted to one sword Hiramekarei >>> Zabuza's Cloud strife blade.

No Mangetsu wouldn't use more than 1 sword when its necessary. You feel that the other swordsmen would give Mangetsu their swords??? Are you retarded? lol the swordsmen were rogue criminals who didn't listen to anyone and did whatever to gain power. Why would they let Mangetsu take their swords when they took their swords when they left their village? Surely they would have gave their village their swords. Also, if the scroll could summon swords at any time, why didn't the mist village just use it to summon all the swords they lost back? Mangetsu wielded Hiramekarei and that is the only sword the village still possesses, implying Mangetsu was a good guy and if he had the scroll he would have just summoned the swords back.

Also Zabuza and a lot of the other swordsmen wouldn't accept Mangetsu as a leader. Their actions imply they don't listen to anyone. Nothing says Mangetsu was the "leader". That's fan fiction

Was Zabuza called the best at silent killing?

No wonder why you think Mangetsu is above Zabuza. You aren't even sure of his signature move. Zabuza was noted many times to be second to none in SK.

But yeah I don't think Mangetsu moves up because of his swordsmenship I think he may move up due to how difficult he would be to kill

.

Then why isn't Suigetsu above Zabuza?

Again imagine the difficulty to kill someone w/ Suika no Jutsu, Demonic Mist + Silent Killing, and Samehada. Realistically there are very few Ninja I can see standing any chance of killing someone like that, and most are Top Kages.

That would be hard to kill, but lets actually imagine someone with Hydrification, no demonic mist just average SK (which is basically useless bc he doesn't have mist), no Samehada, just Hiramekarei. That is what he actually was

Honestly Suika no Jutsu is much better than any of those things as it makes you nigh unkillable and apparently also gives you a one-hit KO, where you just need to touch the enemy to kill them.

No it isn't better. Well for one Zabuza has mist to conceal himself which makes him hard to kill plus enhances his SK. Because Mangetsu doesn't have mist, his SK is close to being useless. Mangetsu lacks the offensive abilities Zabuza has, tactical jutsu, and lacks the feats Zabuza has as well.

They went after Zabuza because he was the one casting the Mist at that point. So they needed to target him first. That really doesn't prove Mangetsu can't cast the Mist, just that Zabuza was the one to do so at that time. As for why Zabuza casted the Mist rather than Mangetsu, well perhaps Zabuza is simply better w/ the Jutsu than Mangetsu, where he can cover a larger radious w/ the Mist than Mangetsu, which is key in a battlefield wide setting.

Nope. The manga supports Zabuza is the only one who can use the mist because Kakashi noted they need to get rid of the mist and go after Zabuza. Kakashi wouldn't get rid of the mist by just sealing Zabuza if Mangetsu and the other swordsmen could use it to. The manga supports my claim and is totally against yours. You're trying to give Mangetsu Zabuza's signature move to enhance his abilities to make him stronger than Zabuza, pitiful.

Because Mangetsu could literally just stand there and Zabuza wouldn't be able to anything to him due to Suika no Jutsu. And Hiramekarei >>> Kubikiribocho. Plus Mangetsu can utilize all of the swords, so if he ever wielded Samehada he would be hax as hell.

Yeah well tough shit, only Kisame's master, Fuguki and Kisame wielded it, not Mangetsu. Mangetsu wielded Hiramekarei.

Mangetsu = Zabuza