Why EMS Madara is not on the same level as Hashirama.

[Waltz]

Disagree, almost entirely.

Hashirama isn't as strong as the Senju Ancestor, obviously, as Hashirama ≠ Senju Unitied; in fact he is only a portion of the Senju which all originated from the Younger son.

No Uchiha will ever be as strong as the Elder son, obviously again as he was Uchiha United. The genetics which comprise the Uchiha both in physicality and Ocular prowess sprung forth from their ancestor: Elder son.

Naturally the Elder son should have maintained the Rikudō's eyes but his Dōjutsu represents the Rin'negan lacking the Yoton portions: the eyes can only surface when both entity's are unified. The Sharingan is a secondary consequence of the Rin'negan and eventually came into existence as the Elder Son's Dōjutsu suffered attenuation. It implies that the varying abilities both seen and unseen to present of the Mangekyō and Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan would have originated from his eyes.

[...]

Your correlation between Inton and Yōton amplifying techniques isn't correct. Yōton is entirely composed of energy which governs vitality and life; thus naturally improving chakra reserves of those endowed with the energy. Inton functions differently, it is composed of the spiritual energy which governs imagination----an energy----which has no direct affects on ones vitality and chakra but rather is used for techniques requiring larger amounts of Yin energy. Mokuton is comprised of Suiton, Doton and Yōton ... Inton plays no part in it's composition and would have no effect on its production. Hashirama's genetic material did not enhance the sharingan,

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and Vitality as seen through crushed-Obito's recovery. All portrayed in:

-> Obito's stamina and chakra pools.
-> Obito being able to extend Izanagi longer than Danzo due to a higher saturation and control over Senju DNA.
-> Danzo being able to extend Izanagi.
-> Danzo being able to drastically shorten Kotoamatsukami's limitation.

The full potential of the Elder sons descendants is within their inheritance [Dōujutsu, Rikudō's eyes and spiritual energy] resulting in Rin'negan being the pinnacle which has already been reached by Madara.

Yes, Hashirama was stronger than Madara but not by any great measure...this entire thread could have been summarized by the fact that EMS-Madara without the Kyuubi beat Hashirama out of Sennin Mōdō.
​

 

[andrewperez]

Read the title and the thread , i clearly stated that i'm talking about EMS Madara and i said don't bring edo and alive Rinnegan Madara into the equation.

and read what i said mcgenius u cant not compare them cuz after the fight he achieved a new lvl , u cant say they arent on the same lvl if hashirama barley won

 

[adeshina365]

No Uchiha will ever be as strong as the Elder son, obviously again as he was Uchiha United. The genetics which comprise the Uchiha both in physicality and Ocular prowess sprung forth from their ancestor: Elder son.
​

We'll see, but I'm willing to be that Sasuke will do just that.

 

[Ahmed1993]

i agree.however when we talk about EMS madara then the kyuubi is in equation.(waits for borrowed power argument =D)

Itachi himself said it to Kabuto , what more do you need ? =D

Disagree, almost entirely.

Hashirama isn't as strong as the Senju Ancestor, obviously, as Hashirama ≠ Senju Unitied; in fact he is only a portion of the Senju which all originated from the Younger son.

No Uchiha will ever be as strong as the Elder son, obviously again as he was Uchiha United. The genetics which comprise the Uchiha both in physicality and Ocular prowess sprung forth from their ancestor: Elder son.

Naturally the Elder son should have maintained the Rikudō's eyes but his Dōjutsu represents the Rin'negan lacking the Yoton portions: the eyes can only surface when both entity's are unified. The Sharingan is a secondary consequence of the Rin'negan and eventually came into existence as the Elder Son's Dōjutsu suffered attenuation. It implies that the varying abilities both seen and unseen to present of the Mangekyō and Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan would have originated from his eyes.

[...]

Your correlation between Inton and Yōton amplifying techniques isn't correct. Yōton is entirely composed of energy which governs vitality and life; thus naturally improving chakra reserves of those endowed with the energy. Inton functions differently, it is composed of the spiritual energy which governs imagination----an energy----which has no direct affects on ones vitality and chakra but rather is used for techniques requiring larger amounts of Yin energy. Mokuton is comprised of Suiton, Doton and Yōton ... Inton plays no part in it's composition. Hashirama's genetic material did not enhance the sharingan,

You must be registered for see links

and Vitality as seen through crushed-Obito's recovery. All portrayed in:

-> Obito's stamina and chakra pools.
-> Obito being able to extend Izanagi longer than Danzo due to a higher saturation and control over Senju DNA.
-> Danzo being able to extend Izanagi.
-> Danzo being able to drastically shorten Kotoamatsukami's limitation.

The full potential of the Elder sons descendants is within their inheritance [Dōujutsu, Rikudō's eyes and spiritual energy] resulting in Rin'negan being the pinnacle which has already been reached by Madara.
​

The elder son didn't have the Rinnegan but an imperfect version of it and that's why you can't say that Rinnegan is the pinnacle of the elder son and his descendants's power.

If Hashirama's cells ( Yöton ) can enhance Dojutsu to that point and even evolving them to the final stage, then the same goes for Inton.

Hashirama's father has less diluted blood and yet he is nowhere even close to Hashirama's level.

Madara has less diluted blood than Sasuke , and yet the latter will eventually surpass him , stated in the manga.

Do i need to even mention Naruto ?

 

[Ahmed1993]

and read what i said mcgenius u cant not compare them cuz after the fight he achieved a new lvl , u cant say they arent on the same lvl if hashirama barley won

He achieved a new level after 80 years of that fight mr smart@ss , and at that time he was too old to even survive without the GM.

 

[Waltz]

We'll see, but I'm willing to be that Sasuke will do just that.

...

Perhaps you didn't understand why Sasuke could never be as strong as the Uchiha ancestor. Already covered this but will simplify:

Obito has Kamui
Shisui had Kotoamatsukami
Itachi had Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu along with
Sasuke had Kagutsuchi
Izuna had ... along with Susano'o
Madara had ... along with Susano'o
... ect.

All these are ocular Jutsu within the Uchiha eyes and they all stem from the Elder sons Dōjutsu .basically, his Dōjutsu maintained all the techniques we see within the Uchiha's Mangekyō and Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan. His eyes suffered attenuation and the numerous abilities within his eyes were dispersed throughout the generations to come: The Uchiha. ​

 

[andrewperez]

He achieved a new level after 80 years of that fight mr smart@ss , and at that time he was too old to even survive without the GM.

no they arent the same lvl they both nearly died righttt like i said its bull madara never used
izanami

 

[Ahmed1993]

...

Perhaps you didn't understand why Sasuke could never be as strong as the Uchiha ancestor. Already covered this but will simplify:

Obito has Kamui
Shisui had Kotoamatsukami
Itachi had Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu along with
Sasuke had Kagutsuchi
Izuna had ... along with Susano'o
Madara had ... along with Susano'o
... ect.

All these are ocular Jutsu within the Uchiha eyes and they all stem from the Elder sons Dōjutsu .basically, his Dōjutsu maintained all the techniques we see within the Uchiha's Mangekyō and Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan. His eyes suffered attenuation and the numerous abilities within his eyes were dispersed throughout the generations to come: The Uchiha. ​

But it might be that a super elite Uchiha can awaken that dojutsu and access all Uchiha techniques via it.
Because by your logic , Hashirama should have never had the Mokuton as well then.

Also you didn't answer my other post.

 

[Bronze]

Your explanation is not detailed OP. This is the reason why they are not on the same leve:

As we know, Uchiha and Senju inherited the powers of their ancestor.

Elder son = spiritual energy + dojutsu.
Younger son = vitality + powerful body

And those have been passed down to their descendants, Uchiha and Senju. Madara and Hashirama were the most powerful ones in their respective clan. So Uchiha have the strength of chakra and techniques while Senju have lots of chaka and techniques. But who is stronger between these 2?

Now with that all being said, everything is easy to understand. The things Madara would lose to Hashirama is simply, he doesn't have the stamina to keep up with him. So in results, Madara gets outlasted by Hashirama's stamina. But at the same time, Hashirama would lose to Madara because he doesn't have the power to match him as in strength. This is proven that none of Hashirama's base techniques can take down PS.

While Madara has powerful jutsu that can match the bijuu, he lacks the stamina to keep fighting so he gets outlasted. While Hashirama's techniques are on large scale that can match a bijuu, but he lacks the powerful techniques to put them down. So Madara and Hashirama both have advantage and disadvantage against each other.

So for both of them to fight equally, Hashirama needs Sage mode which gives him enough power to fight against Madara(Shinsuusenju), while at the same time, Madara needs kyuubi which allows him to tire Hashirama so he can keep fighting for long period of time.

That's basically the difference between them. Although i still believe Madara with kyuubi would have won if they kept their distance from the statue.

 

[Waltz]

The elder son didn't have the Rinnegan but an imperfect version of it and that's why you can't say that Rinnegan is the pinnacle of the elder son and his descendants's power.

If Hashirama's cells ( Yöton ) can enhance Dojutsu to that point and even evolving them to the final stage, then the same goes for Inton.

Hashirama's father has less diluted blood and yet he is nowhere even close to Hashirama's level.

Madara has less diluted blood than Sasuke , and yet the latter will eventually surpass him , stated in the manga.

Do i need to even mention Naruto ?

@ Bold:

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The Rikudo's elder son inherited his fathers eyes : The Rin'negan. It is the pinnacle of the Uchiha's Ocular power and their inheritance. His version was imperfect because he lacked the Yoton portions his brother possessed. That's why the Rin'negan can only surface if the two halves 'Senju-Yōton' and 'Uchiha-Inton' become one.

All jutsu: Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu run on Chakra, something Mokuton provides naturally in superabundance due to it being saturated with Yōton energy which enhances chakra and Vitality [life giving properties]. It is merely speculation for you to assume Inton functions identically especially since it's composition completely negates the idea. Spiritual energy [Inton] does not have the same properties of Yōton.
​

 

[Penguin]

Your explanation is not detailed OP. This is the reason why they are not on the same leve:

As we know, Uchiha and Senju inherited the powers of their ancestor.

Elder son = spiritual energy + dojutsu.
Younger son = vitality + powerful body

And those have been passed down to their descendants, Uchiha and Senju. Madara and Hashirama were the most powerful ones in their respective clan. So Uchiha have the strength of chakra and techniques while Senju have lots of chaka and techniques. But who is stronger between these 2?

Now with that all being said, everything is easy to understand. The things Madara would lose to Hashirama is simply, he doesn't have the stamina to keep up with him. So in results, Madara gets outlasted by Hashirama's stamina. But at the same time, Hashirama would lose to Madara because he doesn't have the power to match him as in strength. This is proven that none of Hashirama's base techniques can take down PS.

While Madara has powerful jutsu that can match the bijuu, he lacks the stamina to keep fighting so he gets outlasted. While Hashirama's techniques are on large scale that can match a bijuu, but he lacks the powerful techniques to put them down. So Madara and Hashirama both have advantage and disadvantage against each other.

So for both of them to fight equally, Hashirama needs Sage mode which gives him enough power to fight against Madara(Shinsuusenju), while at the same time, Madara needs kyuubi which allows him to tire Hashirama so he can keep fighting for long period of time.

That's basically the difference between them. Although i still believe Madara with kyuubi would have won if they kept their distance from the statue.

Stopped after the bold. Mokuton: Mokujin no Jutsu is PS' equivalent.

 

[Ahmed1993]

Your explanation is not detailed OP. This is the reason why they are not on the same leve:

As we know, Uchiha and Senju inherited the powers of their ancestor.

Elder son = spiritual energy + dojutsu.
Younger son = vitality + powerful body

And those have been passed down to their descendants, Uchiha and Senju. Madara and Hashirama were the most powerful ones in their respective clan. So Uchiha have the strength of chakra and techniques while Senju have lots of chaka and techniques. But who is stronger between these 2?

Now with that all being said, everything is easy to understand. The things Madara would lose to Hashirama is simply, he doesn't have the stamina to keep up with him. So in results, Madara gets outlasted by Hashirama's stamina. But at the same time, Hashirama would lose to Madara because he doesn't have the power to match him as in strength. This is proven that none of Hashirama's base techniques can take down PS.

While Madara has powerful jutsu that can match the bijuu, he lacks the stamina to keep fighting so he gets outlasted. While Hashirama's techniques are on large scale that can match a bijuu, but he lacks the powerful techniques to put them down. So Madara and Hashirama both have advantage and disadvantage against each other.

So for both of them to fight equally, Hashirama needs Sage mode which gives him enough power to fight against Madara(Shinsuusenju), while at the same time, Madara needs kyuubi which allows him to tire Hashirama so he can keep fighting for long period of time.

That's basically the difference between them. Although i still believe Madara with kyuubi would have won if they kept their distance from the statue.

Senju were portrayed to be stronger ( at least Hashirama's generation )

Madara doesn't have the stamina but Hashirama doesn't have a dojutsu as well.
Each one was given weakness and advantages by the SO6P but who beat EMS Madara + Kyuubi in the end ?

Hashirama.

And you're putting SM as an extra power same as Kyuubi which is false , because it need to be mastered via hard training while Kyuubi can be controlled by 3T Sharingan as shown by Madara and Obito.

Also by your logic Madara would have 2 extra powers ( His brother's eyes and Kyuubi )


I agree that he could have won with the Kyuubi but without it he get mid diffed simply because he hasn't reached his full potential.

 

[Bronze]

Stopped after the bold. Mokuton: Mokujin no Jutsu is PS' equivalent.

No its not. That was Hashirama in his SM. I am talking about base Hashirama.

-It doesn't have fire-power to slightly scratch PS
-Madara had later destroyed it

Senju were portrayed to be stronger ( at least Hashirama's generation )

Madara doesn't have the stamina but Hashirama doesn't have a dojutsu as well.
Each one was given weakness and advantages by the SO6P but who beat EMS Madara + Kyuubi in the end ?

Hashirama.

And you're putting SM as an extra power same as Kyuubi which is false , because it need to be mastered via hard training while Kyuubi can be controlled by 3T Sharingan as shown by Madara and Obito.

Also by your logic Madara would have 2 extra powers ( His brother's eyes and Kyuubi )


I agree that he could have won with the Kyuubi but without it he get mid diffed simply because he hasn't reached his full potential.

I don't care to bit about character portrayal as its not important when comparing both abilities. And by portrayal, Uchiha were the only match the Senju:

Spoiler

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That's what i said.

Wrong. Hashirama himself in base mode can match the power of bijuu, hence why all of them were under his control:

Spoiler

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So in base mode, his jutsu can match the scales of Kyuubi. All he needs is the power to increase them to folds. That's where Sage mode comes to.

Incorrect. Kyuubi is simply Madara's power same as Hashirama to SM. Hashi in base cannot beat Madara's PS.

 

[Ahmed1993]

@ Bold:

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The Rikudo's elder son inherited his fathers eyes : The Rin'negan. It is the pinnacle of the Uchiha's Ocular power and their inheritance. His version was imperfect because he lacked the Yoton portions his brother possessed. That's why the Rin'negan can only surface if the two halves 'Senju-Yōton' and 'Uchiha-Inton' become one.

All jutsu: Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu run on Chakra, something Mokuton provides naturally in superabundance due to it being saturated with Yōton energy which enhances chakra and Vitality [life giving properties]. It is merely speculation for you to assume Inton functions identically especially since it's composition completely negates the idea. Spiritual energy [Inton] does not have the same properties of Yōton.
​

And that's why its not a Rinnegan but rather an Imprefect Rinnegan which would make it one step behind the Rinnegan.
Same as Susanoo unstabilized and Perfect Susanoo.

But the dojutsu's power is exerted via Inton so by your logic Yöton have nothing to do here.

 

[Penguin]

No its not. That was Hashirama in his SM. I am talking about base Hashirama.

-It doesn't have fire-power to slightly scratch PS
-Madara had later destroyed it

Please, for the love of Christ, quit posting if you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Hashirama is clearly is base, and the PS has nothing to kill the Mokujin with.

 

[Bronze]

Please, for the love of Christ, quit posting if you have no idea what you are talking about.

You must be registered for see images

Hashirama is clearly is base, and the PS has nothing to kill the Mokujin with.

You are pathetic to the point where i should start ignoring you. Mokujin was destroyed by TBB:

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And the same TBB that did not scratch unstabalized PS katana. So from that point, when you actually bring a proper argument, i will reply.

 

[adeshina365]

...

Perhaps you didn't understand why Sasuke could never be as strong as the Uchiha ancestor. Already covered this but will simplify:

Obito has Kamui
Shisui had Kotoamatsukami
Itachi had Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu along with
Sasuke had Kagutsuchi
Izuna had ... along with Susano'o
Madara had ... along with Susano'o
... ect.

All these are ocular Jutsu within the Uchiha eyes and they all stem from the Elder sons Dōjutsu .basically, his Dōjutsu maintained all the techniques we see within the Uchiha's Mangekyō and Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan. His eyes suffered attenuation and the numerous abilities within his eyes were dispersed throughout the generations to come: The Uchiha. ​

I guess we'll have to wait and see how things turn out. I think some interesting things are going to be happen to Sasuke in the future (not suggesting that he's going to get all MS abilities).

At the very least we know that Sasuke will surpass Madara. At Sasuke's current rate of growth (which surpasses Madara's significantly), his powers will be incredible as an adult.

 

[Ahmed1993]

I guess we'll have to wait and see how things turn out. I think some interesting things are going to be happen to Sasuke in the future (not suggesting that he's going to get all MS abilities).

At the very least we know that Sasuke will surpass Madara. At Sasuke's current rate of growth (which surpasses Madara's significantly, his powers will be incredible as an adult.

I already countered him , read my replies to him if you want.
Sorry now i have to go to sleep , good night.

 

[KisuneUchiha]

Kyuubi is a one time summon , and it helped Madara a lot with its fire power.
Also yes summoning are not part of the user's power, Itachi himself said it to Kabuto.



If he is , then he would have achieved his full potential years ago and true peace would have been reached
Like Tobirama said :
Hashirama is too lenient and Madara too dangerous.

If that is so then take away Hashirama's wooden dragon summoning ._.
And Correction: ITachi never said Summonings are not ones own power, he was saying that Kabuto's spamming of OTHER peoples skills and attacks is not his own power

OT: I still think they are both on equal levels, since

 

[Pizcobaby]

I thought this was common knowledge.. I mean.. cmon Hashi smashed Madara multiple times.. Madara even got the come back from life with everything possible to make him better (Rinnegan, unlimited chakra, Rinnegan, dat DNA, ect) and he still got beat in a matter of a few panels..