So, WHO can beat Orange Mask Tobi? (Full intel, no prep time)

[awesomeseimei]

Orange Mask Tobi, i. e. the Tobi that fought Konan.

Normally we saw him trolling opponents with Kamui and he pulled Izanagi when things got out of hand, but let's pretend his hypothetic opponent has FULL intel on him this time (including full Kamui mechanics and Izanagi), but NO prep time (so no paper ocean). Obito has manga knowledge and isn't likely to use his full arsenal (at least in the beginning; he relies on Kamui).

List any characters who can beat him in such conditions in 1v1 or 2v1. Mindset is to kill for everyone.

Bonus question: which character or team of two can beat him with the least difficulty?

 

[Europa]

Full intel?

Orochimaru. EDO TENSEI

 

[Mellanoma]

Itachi: Genjutsu

Kakashi = Obito genjutsu based on feats

Itachi > Kakashi based on feats

Team: Kimmimaru and Shino

 

[Takos]

Kakashi takes down Rinnegan Obito with full intel, if it's MS Obito then Kakashi stomps.

But without prep time, I don't see many more people doing this.

Minato. Madara. Hashirama. And that's probably it.

The one beating him with least difficulty is still Kakashi, though.
1. Kage bunshin
2. Send the clone to alternate dimension
3. ???
4. Profit! Obito can't use Kamui to phase anymore, or it will end like this:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Except Kakashi won't be going easy on him this time. GG.

 

[Draphsin]

Full intel?

Orochimaru. EDO TENSEI

Full intel, NO PREP

The only two people I see pulling off a win are minato & kakashi everyone else falls to kamui.

Did you restrict kurama, if not then I don't see him losing..

Kakashi takes down Rinnegan Obito with full intel, if it's MS Obito then Kakashi stomps.

But without prep time, I don't see many more people doing this.

Minato. Madara. Hashirama. And that's probably it.

The one beating him with least difficulty is still Kakashi, though.
1. Kage bunshin
2. Send the clone to alternate dimension
3. ???
4. Profit! Obito can't use Kamui to phase anymore, or it will end like this:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Except Kakashi won't be going easy on him this time. GG.

Juubi sized katon says hello from the other dimension.

 

[Takos]

Juubi sized katon says hello from the other dimension.

Ah, hello there, Draphsin.

Juubi-sized katon argument simply has too many holes.

Problem 1:
We don't know if Kamui dimension has ground or not. It certainly has air, because people can breathe there, so it's likely it has ground as well. In this case Kakashi can avoid the katon by going underground.

Problem 2:
Based on all the manga knowledge, Bakufu Ranbu becomes jubi-sized only after flying a long way (see the panel in which Obito and Madara used their katons on SA), making it useless short range. This is confirmed by the fact that when Obito used the same technique against Kakashi and Guy (the distance was much shorter), the flame was MUCH smaller. Another confirmation of this is Obito resorting to a normal fireball against Kakashi when they fought close to mid distance.

Problem 3:
Kakashi can use suiton to, if not stop Bakufu completely, slow it down to gain time to move out of the way.

Problem 4:
Bakufu Ranbu is a fire technique that uses Obito's Kamui to enhance it. We know already that Kamui doesn't work exactly the same in both dimensions (Obito can't phase in Kamui dimension), so chances are Obito CAN'T even use BR on Kakashi's clone in the alternate dimension. That's another possible explanation of why Obito didn't use it against Kakashi and used a fireball instead.

See, if at least one of these problems is in fact true, then Bakufu Ranbu is no longer a big argument for Obito's side. And chances are, all of these are true.

 

[Draphsin]

Ah, hello there, Draphsin.

Juubi-sized katon argument simply has too many holes.

Hi u_u

Problem 1:
We don't know if Kamui dimension has ground or not. It certainly has air, because people can breathe there, so it's likely it has ground as well. In this case Kakashi can avoid the katon by going underground.

We don't know if the kamui dimension has EARTH so this point is moot.

Problem 2:
Based on all the manga knowledge, Bakufu Ranbu becomes jubi-sized only after flying a long way (see the panel in which Obito and Madara used their katons on SA), making it useless short range. This is confirmed by the fact that when Obito used the same technique against Kakashi and Guy (the distance was much smaller), the flame was MUCH smaller. Another confirmation of this is Obito resorting to a normal fireball against Kakashi when they fought close to mid distance.

Lol and what's stopping obito from teleporting a significant distance away where this wouldnt be a problem? Idk why you think obito would be foolish enough to use such a jutsu at point blank, lol.

Problem 3:
Kakashi can use suiton to, if not stop Bakufu completely, slow it down to gain time to move out of the way.

This is not a problem, when fire >>> water then that water evaporates, shouldnt have to explain this.

See, if at least any of these problems is in fact true, then Bakufu Ranbu is no longer a big argument for Obito's side. And chances are, all of these are true.

None of these things are even a problem, you are grasping at straws here.

Nothing is stopping obito's katon.

 

[Shura]

Can someone tell me how exactly Kakashi doesn't become Obito's new dog when he uses the Rinnegan's Chakura Chains against him when it made a Bijū his new dog? [

You must be registered for see links

] More so, if Obito has the Uchiha Gunbai, most of Kakashi's techniques get blasted right back into his face.​

 

[Takos]

We don't know if the kamui dimension has EARTH so this point is moot.

That's what I said - neither you nor I can say if there is earth or not, but knowing air exists there, earth might as well. That's a 50-50 guess, and if there is earth there, then this single argument is enough to make BR useless against Kakashi.

Lol and what's stopping obito from teleporting a significantr distance away where this wouldnt be a problem,. idk why you think obito would be foolish enough to use such a jutsu at point blank, lol.

Well, something is stopping Obito from doing that, actually, if you look at his fight against Kakashi.
As I said, Kamui works differently in the alternate dimension. While Obito (and Kakashi, too), if they are in the Kamui dimension, can use Kamui to teleport anywhere they want in the real one, it doesn't look like it works the opposite way, too.
Meaning, Obito can't teleport from normal dimension to a chosen location in Kamui dimension.
And we're talking only about Kamui dimension here, because BR can be easily avoided in the real one via doton.

This is not a problem, when fire >>> water then that water evaporates, shouldnt have to explain this.

But the flame is slowed down nevertheless.

None of these things are even a problem, you are grasping at straws here.

Nope, to me it looks like you're the one grasping at straws - clinging to the hope that there is no earth in Kamui dimension, for example.

But don't be that aggressive, I'm trying to have a nice discussion here.
Also, I forgot at first the fourth problem, which I added later. Would be nice if you replied to it as well.

 

[Takos]

Can someone tell me how exactly Kakashi doesn't become Obito's new dog when he uses the Rinnegan's Chakura Chains against him when it made a Bijū his new dog?​

Well, if that was so simple, then Obito wouldn't say he needs to aim for the kill to capture Naruto - he'd simply use the chains on him. And on Bee, Kakashi, and Guy as well.

It could be used on beasts so easily because they had Rinnegan chakra receivers.

Obviously it wouldn't be a factor against Kakashi.

Besides, we're talking about MS Obito here.

More so, if Obito has the Uchiha Gunbai, most of Kakashi's techniques get blasted right back into his face.

The deflecting technique you're talking about was only ever used by Madara. And it was revealed quite some time ago that Tobi =/= Madara.​

 

[SasukeNamikaze]

Naruto, Madara, Minato, and Hashirama are shoe ins.

Sasuke, Kakashi, Itachi, and Kabuto have their chances.

 

[Shura]

Well, if that was so simple, then Obito wouldn't say he needs to aim for the kill to capture Naruto - he'd simply use the chains on him. And on Bee, Kakashi, and Guy as well.

Obviously it wouldn't work.

Besides, we're talking about MS Obito here.



The deflecting technique you're talking about was only ever used by Madara. And it was revealed quite some time ago that Tobi =/= Madara.

My mistake. I used Rinnegan Obito. However, Naruto is simply too fast for him to be caught in these chains.

Anyways, Madara taught Obito his jutsu so I don't see how exactly Obito can't use it. Not to mention that if Kakashi goes underground as you claim, Obito will produce a Mokuton Tree from the underground to pierce and kill Kakashi.​

 

[Prince Charles]

That's what I said - neither you nor I can say if there is earth or not, but knowing air exists there, earth might as well. That's a 50-50 guess, and if there is earth there, then this single argument is enough to make BR useless against Kakashi.

There is not one single shred of evidence that even hints that earth is there, so your argument on this subject is Moot as drasphin said.

But the flame is slowed down nevertheless.

You must be registered for see links

which falls into comparison to Obito's. Kakuzu's katon attack was still up even after that suiton, kakashi's suiton isn't doing anything to Obito's.

Lel what? Your argument for there being earth in kamui world is the fact that there is air? What kind of argument is that? There isnt any shred of evidence that there is earth in the kamui dimension.

 

[Takos]

My mistake. I used Rinnegan Obito. However, Naruto is simply too fast for him to be caught in these chains.​

It still doesn't explain why he didn't use it on Bee, Guy or the one we're talking about here, Kakashi.

Anyways, Madara taught Obito his jutsu so I don't see how exactly Obito can't use it. Not to mention that if Kakashi goes underground as you claim, Obito will produce a Mokuton Tree from the underground to pierce and kill Kakashi.

He didn't show to be able to use the gunbai this way, so we can't assume that just because Madara was his teacher, Obito learned this technique. The same way we don't assume Kakashi knows FTG.
Mokuton Tree? He only ever used it once - when he was aided by Zetsu. Obito's standalone mokuton feats are worse than Yamato's.​

 

[Takos]

There is not one single shred of evidence that even hints that earth is there, so your argument on this subject is Moot as drasphin said.

Oh, but there is. Air being there is a hint of other "elements" existing as well.

You must be registered for see links

which falls into comparison to Obito's. Kakuzu's katon attack was still up even after that suiton, kakashi's suiton isn't doing anything to Obito's.

Please, next time read the page you're referring to yourself. Kakashi clearly says his suiton can't take care of FIRE and WIND combination, not Kakuzu's fire alone. And it still doesn't prove a thing, because this suiton wall DID slow down the flame for Kakashi to move away. Bakufu Ranbu will turn out useless not only if it is taken out by Kakashi, but also if it can be avoided by Kakashi, you see.

Lel what? Your argument for there being earth in kamui world is the fact that there is air? What kind of argument is that? There isnt any shred of evidence that there is earth in the kamui dimension.

I won't even respond to this.

 

[Touken]

You must be registered for see links

which falls into comparison to Obito's. Kakuzu's katon attack was still up even after that suiton, kakashi's suiton isn't doing anything to Obito's.

Fuuton + Katon >>> any Katon.

Who said this Katon is hotter than any other Katon? It's bigger, yeah, but no where does it state it's hotter. Suiton can easily counter it. Also, it'd be illogical for him to use a Juubi sized Katon against Kakashi when it's only him, add the fact that it spreads over range, something that won't be possible in CQC.

 

[Shura]

It still doesn't explain why he didn't use it on Bee, Guy or the one we're talking about here, Kakashi.

Probably because Naruto was keeping him busy. If he could have taken out those three then he would have done it from the start in order to get rid of Kakashi. He couldn't attack them due to Naruto keeping him occupied.​

He didn't show to be able to use the gunbai this way, so we can't assume that just because Madara was his teacher, Obito learned this technique. The same way we don't assume Kakashi knows FTG.
Mokuton Tree? He only ever used it once - when he was aided by Zetsu. Obito's standalone mokuton feats are worse than Yamato's.

Not really. Obito has the white Zetsu's abilities including the Mokuton Tree since his body is made out of Zetsu and he has shown to use Zetsu's Mokuton.

Madara stated that he taught him his Uchiha techniques and that happens to be an Uchiha technique so I still don't see how Obito can't use it.​

 

[Draphsin]

That's what I said - neither you nor I can say if there is earth or not, but knowing air exists there, earth might as well. That's a 50-50 guess, and if there is earth there, then this single argument is enough to make BR useless against Kakashi.

The fact that you're using an unconfirmed piece of evidence as a counter renders this point moot. He can't use it because there may be earth in the dimension. Okay you need oxygen in order to breathe, can the same be said for earth? No.

There arent trees in the dimension, so real world logic obviously doesnt apply here.

Well, something is stopping Obito from doing that, actually, if you look at his fight against Kakashi.
As I said, Kamui works differently in the alternate dimension. While Obito (and Kakashi, too), if they are in the Kamui dimension, can use Kamui to teleport anywhere they want in the real one, it doesn't look like it works the opposite way, too.

This makes no sense.

Obito can use kamui to teleport anywhere he wasnts to in the real world. Well if that's the case then all he has to do is teleport a significant distance away in the real world via kamui. & not only would the clone unaware of where he will appear but the gap is easily widened.

Meaning, Obito can't teleport from normal dimension to a chosen location in Kamui dimension.

But he can teleport from kamui, to a chosen location in the real world, then teleport back to kamuiland.

And we're talking only about Kamui dimension here, because BR can be easily avoided in the real one via doton.

And obito can't hide like a mole himself or phase through the doton?

But the flame is slowed down nevertheless.

Look up how fire works, you need to suffocate it before it can be slowed down or stopped. If fire >>> water then nothing will hapen to the velocity of the flame, it will still engulf whatever is in its path without stopping.

Nope, to me it looks like you're the one grasping at straws - clinging to the hope that there is no earth in Kamui dimension, for example.

lol

Show me the proof that there is earth in kamuiland, while you're at it tell me kakashi's counter to obito hiding like a mole as well? Also tell me how kakashi escapes the earth without getting absorbed from the surface (because sharingan can see chakra). So all obito has to do is teleport to wherever kakashi pops his head out & its G-effing-G

But don't be that aggressive, I'm trying to have a nice discussion here.
Also, I forgot at first the fourth problem, which I added later. Would be nice if you replied to it as well.

Don't be that sensitive, this is the internet & nothing should be taken personally.

Problem 4:
Bakufu Ranbu is a fire technique that uses Obito's Kamui to enhance it. We know already that Kamui doesn't work exactly the same in both dimensions (Obito can't phase in Kamui dimension), so chances are Obito CAN'T even use BR on Kakashi's clone in the alternate dimension. That's another possible explanation of why Obito didn't use it against Kakashi and used a fireball instead.

And prove that the kamui actually increases the size of his katon, because from what is shown the katon he used with madara had the same volume as his. Yet the smaller BR was shown to be hollow. Kamui simply alters the shape of the jutsu, you need more chakra in order to increase the size so logically using kamui to enhance it would make it even smaller (utilizing two jutsus simultaneously).

 

[Prince Charles]

Oh, but there is. Air being there is a hint of other "elements" existing as well.

oh god.. I am seriously having a hard time taking you seriously here, all you are doing is assuming that there is earth in kamui world just because air exist.. that is a petty argument at best, you have no other proof or support to back up your claim, but I do which is the manga which clearly has shown no earth substance in there.

Please, next time read the page you're referring to yourself. Kakashi clearly says his suiton can't take care of FIRE and WIND combination, not Kakuzu's fire alone. And it still doesn't prove a thing, because this suiton wall DID slow down the flame for Kakashi to move away.

It doesnt matter if wind was mixed into the fire, all wind does is simply make fire stronger at the end of the day, so what you said is irrelevant, Obito's Juubi sized katon>>> Kakuzu's katon, it being mixed with air is not important here, he managed to slow it down but he isnt pulling off that same feat against a much larger katon.

 

[Takos]

Probably because Naruto was keeping him busy. If he could have taken out those three then he would have done it from the start in order to get rid of Kakashi. He couldn't attack them due to Naruto keeping him occupied.​

He couldn't attack Kakashi when it was only the two of them in Kamui dimension without anyone else interfering, either? This makes no sense.

Not really. Obito has the white Zetsu's abilities including the Mokuton Tree since his body is made out of Zetsu and he has shown to use Zetsu's Mokuton.

Obviously Obito doesn't have Zetsu's abilities. Zetsu's morphing jutsu, for example?

Madara stated that he taught him his Uchiha techniques and that happens to be an Uchiha technique so I still don't see how Obito can't use it.

If Madara mentioned ALL Uchiha techniques, then it would be a viable argument.