4th Kazekage vs Mei

[NarutoIndra]

Gold dust is made from sand, call it re-enforced sand. The rest agreed

Where was this stated? Moreover, sand can in no way be perceived as magnetic (not that gold is either).

 

[TheTailedSage]

Where was this stated? Moreover, sand can in no way be perceived as magnetic (not that gold is either).

My apologies, im confusing the when gaara used it to take out joki boy... regardless as you said she's not melting gold dust, not even with that quantity of lava

 

[AGoodBoy]

This is getting a bit too long, and I don't have much time to think up these detailed responses, so I'll bullet point this.

I agree, most scientific debate I have had. And no, I am not majoring, I am still 16 years old, I am simply good at science because I am in the IB program and take 2 sciences at a higher level (which would give me 6 credits for Bio, 6 credits for chemistry at Colombia University) which may be a reason to why I am pretty good at science. You yourself are also very good in science.

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The conductivity of Gold is approximately 30 times the conductivity of water. This means that even with their relatively low surface area (when independent), they still would transfer energy relatively quickly. Moroever, your point is in support of my claims. You claim that surface area matters, and that would be in disadvantage of the small gold dust. However, if they are all joined, they would end up doing nearly the same things as gold of the same mass as a single piece. Why? For instance, more heat will be lost from a home through a larger window than through a smaller window of the same composition and thickness. More heat will be lost from a home through a larger roof than through a smaller roof with the same insulation characteristics. Each individual particle on the surface of an object is involved in the heat conduction process. An object with a wider area has more surface particles working to conduct heat. As such, the rate of heat transfer is directly proportional to the surface area through which the heat is being conducted. The gold dust would be directly in contact with other gold dust, it would create an effect similar to a single piece of the same mass of gold, instead of the billions of gold dust pieces. However, it is correct that it is not as effective as fully connected gold, it is still connected through thinner connections between the gold. Saying this would heavily affect the gold is fallacious, efficiency isn't as affected as you are making it to be. This implies that all this surface area will be in advantage of the high conductivity of gold, and will thus transfer heat throughout a lot of the gold (not all of it), until it cools down to relatively atmospheric temperatures (room temperature is what was meant). It wouldn't be a thick sheet of delocalised gold dust. He can move the gold in more than one direction.. This would mean while a small portion of the gold dust isn't magnetic anymore, the large majority can still be moved around and attack Mei. She cannot affect large waves at once, she would affect the gold dust on the surface and somewhat beneath, but not the ones in the centre or on the bottom. Moreover, if one were to say that she would've hit all his gold dust with lava, once can also say by that time, a large portions would've already oiled below the curie point, thus becoming effectively magnetic once again (in advantage of the fact that substances are cooled the quickest from their initial temperatures. Saying the newly formed rock wouldn't allow the gold underneath to move would also be naive. Lava at temperatures of (what you claim) 1200 celsius is considered high in Iron since it is Mafic lava. this could be manipulated, and the Iron could be pulled out to make more magnetic substances for the Yondaime Kazekage to control.

• It's not so much the transfer rate of the heat, as much as it is the acceptance rate. A cup full of crushed ice will melt far faster than a large block of ice. That's because each individual cube has more surface area exposed.
• Applying it to this, the spaces between particles create more exposed surface areas which are influenced directly or indirectly( through heated air ) by lava.
• The high conductivity of lava makes these individual particles, with these extra spaces, accept heat far faster and reach the maximum temperature of the heat that much quicker.
• Heat is energy; to spread that energy through one solid material is easier than bridging a gap and transferring to another
• The core of the sun is hotter than mercury because the energized particles(heat) from the sun have to bridge the gap(space) to get to mercury and then attempt to heat mercury to the same degrees of the sun.
• In that manner, these gold particles act like the sun's core( not exactly) each particle is now nearly completely enveloped by lava or the radiation( heat energy ) near the lava.
• what all this means is that particles touching the lava will be far hotter( even if for a few seconds) then particles outside the zone of the lava's heat wave.
• Due to their small sizes, there's less gold atoms per particle; Therefore, (this goes into bonding, quantum physics and some other shit which, frankly, I can't remember exactly right now, and will be too long to explain for this nonsense which is dependent on the max temperature of mei's lava) there are less gold atoms making up each particle of gold dust, and less gold atoms losing electrons and breaking inter-molecular forces, etc. causing the time required to completely melt each individual particle to be significantly low. Once melted, the conductive effects of that gold don't even matter much as it'd take some time to cool them down while still being bombarded by heat. Even after being cooled, there's now a big slab of gold defending mei from his attacks which we have no evidence he can even manage to move.

High speed projectiles can be blocked with extremely thin gold dust masses of equal size to the lava 'projectiles'. Lava has not shown to have any force, so saying they wouldn't block it is fictitious. It would simply demagnetise the thin gold dust, and drop to the floor with the gold dust. this will soon enough harden and the gold dust will cool below curie point, thus even more things to use for his magnetic attacks. Saying once he encircles her with gold, she wins is rather inaccurate. Once she is surrounded by that much gold dust, one her attacks won't be of scale to demagnetise all of it since the demagnetised ones will simply fall down towards gravity, making space for the magnetic ones. Furthermore, even if she somehow could make all that gold dust non-magnetic, it would still be too much for her to handle due to the sheer weight. Sand is approximately 7 times less dense than Gold dust, which logically implies it is extremely heavy. Her being hit by hot gold isn't the reason for why she would die, it is the pressure that would kill her, and she hasn't shown any tolerance for high pressure (tanking capability) now has she?

• still boils down to surface area of each individual particle. Now that you're using a lower volume of dust, there's a smaller volume for the heat to dissipate through and cool to acceptable levels, or even cool to acceptable levels fast enough. And, Due to the nature of lava, each of those smaller waves of gold would be under the added weight of lava. As you stated before, lava is quite viscous. after the lava melts the gold, the gold would then meld into a solid block encased in lava making it significantly harder to manipulate.
• I wasn't talking about an entire block of hardened gold falling on her, I was talking about pieces of molten gold hitting her. Mei can move if you didn't know. My statement was based around the defence that you might state "The lava melts the gold but the gold keeps moving forward and hits mei and she burns and dies". Or something along those lines. Mei can still dodged de-magnetized gold which is just moving linearly off of gravity and momentum.

You can't use the pH change as a reference for slight proof that lava can be heated, let alone evident proof. I would agree she could change the temperature of her lava before spitting it out by cooling it, however, I disagree that she can heat it. Her having fire relase (Katon) doesn't imply she can heat lava with fire. It is illogical. The hottest fire is oxyhydrogen, and this fire can't be replicated since not only would it probably melt her (2000 C) but would also require a 2:1 hydrogen to oxygen level which in't easy to achieve. Fire in Naruto has never reached the colour white or any brighter colour, so she can't exceed temperatures beyond 1200 C. Moreover, if she had orange Katon, she could reach <1100 degrees C. This would be the same heat as the lava you are talking about. Any red fire (which is the only thing shown in the manga yet) is >900 C at most (if it isn't clear red [hasn't been shown in manga]). She can't heat the lava more than it already is heated, and odds are she doesn't have fire the heat of 1000 degrees let alone 1200 C. She still cannot heat it after it is released. Don't compare Roshi with Mei, he only has these abilities because of the Yonbi (Son Goku). Bijuu unique abilities are beyond any ability of a shinobi's abilities.

• Wasn't my intention. You stated that "changing pH is simply making pH higher or lower" or something along those lines, when it's far harder to change pH than to change temperature.
• Lava release is made from katon and doton. It's canonically made from mixing fire and earth. Logically, we can assume it's simply melting earth with fire(standard way gold is formed...). Impyling she can't heat gold with fire( heat energy) is a bit... weird, to say the list. The only valid point in this section is the maximum heat of her fire, because of that I'm just going to quit right now since we'll keep going back and forth in circles.

In either case, mei would still take this fight. Lava is enough to slow down his gold if only by using the viscous nature of her lava to create a barrier. She then has her boil release up which would help fight the kazekage. As a stationary fighter, mei simply has to get closer and allow the acid to eat away at him. Even in the case he wears 'gold armor' the acid would most likely set the gold off through it's purification reaction and encase him in solid gold. As an inorganic compound which is no longer pure gold, it's unlikely he can even manipulate it. Furthermore, Hidden mist should effectively hide her as gaara's sand sensing is based on sand infused with his chakra, where as this guy uses magnetism. Assuming he can sand sense is off the table since his method of jutsu execution is already far off from gaara's. Without auto defence, he's just always left open.

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Anyway, this is where I call it quits. I have a lot of things to do. I can only really browse these forums and send off quick passages at a time, not full on debates.

 

[NarutoIndra]

• It's not so much the transfer rate of the heat, as much as it is the acceptance rate. A cup full of crushed ice will melt far faster than a large block of ice. That's because each individual cube has more surface area exposed.
• Applying it to this, the spaces between particles create more exposed surface areas which are influenced directly or indirectly( through heated air ) by lava.
• The high conductivity of lava makes these individual particles, with these extra spaces, accept heat far faster and reach the maximum temperature of the heat that much quicker.
• Heat is energy; to spread that energy through one solid material is easier than bridging a gap and transferring to another
• The core of the sun is hotter than mercury because the energized particles(heat) from the sun have to bridge the gap(space) to get to mercury and then attempt to heat mercury to the same degrees of the sun.
• In that manner, these gold particles act like the sun's core( not exactly) each particle is now nearly completely enveloped by lava or the radiation( heat energy ) near the lava.
• what all this means is that particles touching the lava will be far hotter( even if for a few seconds) then particles outside the zone of the lava's heat wave.
• Due to their small sizes, there's less gold atoms per particle; Therefore, (this goes into bonding, quantum physics and some other shit which, frankly, I can't remember exactly right now, and will be too long to explain for this nonsense which is dependent on the max temperature of mei's lava) there are less gold atoms making up each particle of gold dust, and less gold atoms losing electrons and breaking inter-molecular forces, etc. causing the time required to completely melt each individual particle to be significantly low. Once melted, the conductive effects of that gold don't even matter much as it'd take some time to cool them down while still being bombarded by heat. Even after being cooled, there's now a big slab of gold defending mei from his attacks which we have no evidence he can even manage to move.

Lava is most abundantly 700-1200 C. Saying Mei's lava is beyond 1050 is simply bias and is only claimed to make best for your own argument (referring to your statements of gold being molten by lava). Odds are, it is 950, 100C below the melting point of lava, and probably just about enough to meet the curie point of the gold. This means;
1. Lava won't be melting the gold
2. The curie point will be far beyond the actual temperature of the lava within the first seconds of its occurrence around the air. Furthermore, since he is capable of controlling his gold dust around a few seconds after the gold cools below the presumed curie point (800 according to your 20% cut, when it is probably around 600 by than).
3. Elaborating ont eh previous points, once he can control the gold which has the lava on it, the Kazekage can simply spread his gold apart from each other, forcing the majority of lava to drop down to the floor, once it is controlled, the small amount of lava is easily dropped to the floor since it is less viscous in low concentrations.

Your points all revolve around the gold needing to melt, or the curie point somehow constantly being met, or the lava staying on top of the gold weighting it down, or the gold dust conducting the heat to force more gold to reach curie point. However, all these have been already disproved. On your point of the gold conducting to other gold to reach curie point, that is incorrect. The gold dust has good conductivity apart from possibly the first 2 centimetres of surface on the gold, the rest is slightly-heavily heated without meeting the curie point. Gold conducts quickly, and I was imply that when it can conduct quickly, a large mass like this will allow it to reduce the specified temperature on specified gold dust, and make the gold dust heavily affected if it is in contact, while the rest of the gold is probably all affect, but not to the point of meeting the curie point. It is a point that can be used on my arguments, not yours..

• still boils down to surface area of each individual particle. Now that you're using a lower volume of dust, there's a smaller volume for the heat to dissipate through and cool to acceptable levels, or even cool to acceptable levels fast enough. And, Due to the nature of lava, each of those smaller waves of gold would be under the added weight of lava. As you stated before, lava is quite viscous. after the lava melts the gold, the gold would then meld into a solid block encased in lava making it significantly harder to manipulate.
• I wasn't talking about an entire block of hardened gold falling on her, I was talking about pieces of molten gold hitting her. Mei can move if you didn't know. My statement was based around the defence that you might state "The lava melts the gold but the gold keeps moving forward and hits mei and she burns and dies". Or something along those lines. Mei can still dodged de-magnetized gold which is just moving linearly off of gravity and momentum.

You fail to see my point. The air, in addition to the gold, will reduce the temperature of the lava. Air alone can turn lava to hardened minerals in a few minutes, with such huge quantities of gold, it is easy to reduce the temperature extremely quickly. The single Gold dust pieces will heat more than a large pice of gold of the same quantity, yes, but that doesn't mean the gold won't be close in conduction. Them being small won't change their melting point nor will it change the curie point. It will simply make them heat and cool quicker. Meaning the heat will be conducted quicker, but will also be cooled quicker with the many gold dust particles residing by its side. Again, gold can be spread out and not touch the other particles of gold, to make the lava drop to the ground. This lava will be used sooner or later for the iron it contains. Yes, Mei can move, but she hasn't shown great speed feats nor has she shown feats in which she can escape a near omnidirectional attack. While Mei uses her lava, The fourth kazekage can tank it with some gold while he uses other gold to attack her. She spits her lava, so saying she can escape while spitting lava is inaccurate. She will get hit by his gold dust eventually, and that is unarguable. Mei can't close the distance, or at least doesn't have the feats to do it without getting destroyed by huge quantities of gold. Mei can't tank this, or create an amount of lava equivalent to this [

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]. The Kazekage created an equal gold tsunami, as you can see here [

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] which ended up equaling the sand in size..

• Wasn't my intention. You stated that "changing pH is simply making pH higher or lower" or something along those lines, when it's far harder to change pH than to change temperature.
• Lava release is made from katon and doton. It's canonically made from mixing fire and earth. Logically, we can assume it's simply melting earth with fire(standard way gold is formed...). Impyling she can't heat gold with fire( heat energy) is a bit... weird, to say the list. The only valid point in this section is the maximum heat of her fire, because of that I'm just going to quit right now since we'll keep going back and forth in circles.

In either case, mei would still take this fight. Lava is enough to slow down his gold if only by using the viscous nature of her lava to create a barrier. She then has her boil release up which would help fight the kazekage. As a stationary fighter, mei simply has to get closer and allow the acid to eat away at him. Even in the case he wears 'gold armor' the acid would most likely set the gold off through it's purification reaction and encase him in solid gold. As an inorganic compound which is no longer pure gold, it's unlikely he can even manipulate it. Furthermore, Hidden mist should effectively hide her as gaara's sand sensing is based on sand infused with his chakra, where as this guy uses magnetism. Assuming he can sand sense is off the table since his method of jutsu execution is already far off from gaara's. Without auto defence, he's just always left open.

Yes it is, doesn't justify that she can adjust the level of heat in her lava. She is probably always using the heat at its highest. She doesn't chose the amount of heat she adds, because it would be illogical for her to not always use her maximum heat. I don't see why you are giving off an act of it being weird. It simply is erroneous to think she can produce more heat than 950 degrees, which we have already assumed since it is the assumed mean of 700-1200C degrees. 950-1200C you stated previously was inexact and rather made to put yourself at an advantage. The most common lava is ranged from 700-1200C, so I will go with this. 950C is the mean. It is only safe to assume that 950 is the maximum amount she can heat rocks with fire, anything regarding you claiming otherwise is a baseless assumption.

Overall, no, Mei loses. We have already seemed to agreed on that she can't meet curie point for long, let alone melt the gold. I have shown you how easy it is to remove the lava atop of the gold dust, or he simply uses the layer right beneath to attack or defend. By the time she has wasted all her lava meeting curie points of layer distinct gold, the lava would have already solidified and the curie point would be below the Gold dust, giving more metals for the Fourth to magnetise. She can't close the distance unless she is ready to lose the fight and die from near omnidirectional gold dust crushing her. It is still gold being engulfed by another substance, it isn't melting so it isn't creating a compound. Meaning the iron within the lava will be magnetic in addition to the previous element, gold. he doesn't lose sight, he simply has weaker sight. Moreover, he doesn't have to stay within the mist, it is possible to leniently escape the mist. She can stay in or chase. Never the less staying in or not, it will prevent her from seeing high speed jutsu like this coming her way [

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] [

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]. Fourth Kazekage wins, simple as that. You can answer if you like, but I see no reason in debating over a topic which I have clearly proven who would win.