[MadaraRules VS NarutoIndra] Nagato VS Hashirama Debate

[Bronze]

I am sorry NarutIndra but debate has now finished. You could have made your post early.

Ot: i am going to announce that the debate is now finished. I will add a poll once i find 6 logical and proper judges. The judges will see who had the better argument and used to them right, and they will vote for the winner. That was a hell of a debate NarutoIndra. Its an honour.

 

[Prince Charles]

dam nice debate, yall boys got turnt up to the max.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Its pointless because you can see the gates speed when falling on Obito [

You must be registered for see links

]. You use scans of when it fall on Juubi. It looked too fast because Juubi is big target. Nagato isn't. That's why its easy for him to avoid it. Kabuto here confirms that he was hiding in barrier [

You must be registered for see links

], and Itachi confirms it was Nagato who was sensing Kabuto's chakra when controlling them [

You must be registered for see links

]. Kabuto's barrier makes it harder to be found and Nagato did it. That's one feat why he can avoid the torii since he can sense from massive distance. Second is the fact he managed to sense the chakra pressure in Itachi eyes. That's not because MS users have this like the BS you're claiming without having scans. That's because the chakra was concentrated in Itachi's eyes and Nagato sensed that pressure. Also regarding Nagato's speed in his prime, fine here is one [

You must be registered for see links

]. You can see he jumped all the way to the cliff in a very high speed. Of course you're gonna say its not a great feat. now give him the rockets which he showed through his paths combined with his sensory powers, then he can avoid the gates. Period.

Your constant insults clearly demonstrate your aroused anger from having lacking points to back up your claims, while my points have all satisfied logic and evidence, and only lack insults. I will not provide scans in quantity of my previous arguments, as you simply ignored them. This is the last argument I will make on this thread, since I have already proved nearly everything you are disproving previously. You started, I end.

You seem to believe there is a certain distinct time panels, but there is not. Saying you know Nagato can avoid Tori Gate because the scans prove it is fallacious. You are still only taking into consideration a single tori gate, when I am claiming is multiple Gates. Itachi stated he could sense it as well when he was being controlled, which one do you believe?[

You must be registered for see links

] You can't chose sides in regards to evidence contradicting itself so it's a stalemate. Your interpretation and assumption doesn't add up to an argument. He himself said it was "pressure" not 'chakra'. Bring me a scan that states chakra creates pressure when it is concentrated in the eye. Moreover, bring me a scan that states he can sense chakra while it is being meld. And You are correct.. it isn't a great feat. Give him rockets, and SM still can jump over him within that time and smash him to the ground as he did against his paths [

You must be registered for see links

]. You are probably gonna go on a roid rage after reading this, but I apologise, I cannot make baseless assumption that he can be 'x' times faster, so i'll stick to the feat.

And why would Nagato keep using ST every time. He is already aware of what you're saying. After using ST, he can just absorb mokuton with preta path since DB canonically supports this, and senjutsu chakra if added is not going to harm him since they have fraction of senjutsu chakra while Nagato absorbed full. He also has rockets fire power comparable to giant rasengan. If bringer of darkness if used then Nagato's sensory powers makes it child game since Hiruzen was using his nose. Not really since i showed a scan of ST can take care of those clones. If they have vitality like you think, then post panels supporting it rather than just running a circle.

How is hobi can be used to hide clones. They will only destroy them. Why would Hashirama keep wasting his time looking after his clones while at the same time taking care of Nagato's incoming animals and GM. ST takes care of them in instant.

You seem to be confused.. Hotei=[

You must be registered for see links

] which dwarfed 100% Kyuubi, and Hobi Jutsu[

You must be registered for see links

] which can easily hide the Mukoton bunshin, and I have already posted scans of its durability to tank TBB's as well as its capability of opening and closing its mouth. Your confusion is amusing, your points are invalid left and right as you don't know the difference between two jutsu's and conclude in the wrong outcome due to lack of jutsu knowledge. Hotei can enclose on all the summons, while Hobi can tank any jutsu Nagato uses. You confused Hobi for Hotei, which is the reason you stated hotei would kill clones instead of protect it in addition to other things.

I only stated this because you did. You yourself said he can use ST to fend off Hotei Jutsu, and you now you state he won't.. Moreover, you claim he can completely absorb Mukoton, when DB and manga don't agree.

Spoiler

You should know the forest that surrounds Konoha was all made from Hashirama's birth of trees. The one that's a total self sustaining ecosystem that grows and lives and makes new trees.

You should also know Mokubunshin are made from the proliferation of Hashirama's cells that feed off of his chakra and life force to grow. Just like the trees have a mass proliferation of tree cells that use the energy of Hashirama's chakra and life force to grow.

Which means both are made of living tissue and real cells. Which means preta can't absorb them because he didn't eat a mass of flash out of Naruto when he drained them.

There's overwhelming support for this canon.

Databook on Mokuton:

A unique secret technique that creates life, tearing through the ground!!

A legendary technique that turns chakra into a source of life.

Mokubunshin:

A clone created by altering one's own cells with chakra.

Databook 3 - Mokuton: Daijurin no Jutsu:

A technique that changes one's own arm into big trees. Using chakra, the cells are transformed into trees. Then, by activating the trees, stimulating them to grow rapidly, they lengthen at high speed and fork into many branches.

Databook 3 - Mokuton: Mokujouheki:

This technique uses chakra to activate the roots in the ground and...

Databook 3 - Mokuton: Shichuuka no Jutsu:

By sending chakra into the ground, the roots of the plants are converted into raw materials.

Now let's look at the baggage your definition of mokuton and preta's powers bring.

If we used your definition, everything that is boosted or altered or proliferated with chakra is a chakra construct, and preta can absorb it. Tsunade has used chakra to alter and regenerate her cells with chakra. Ergo preta can absorb her.

Is that absurd enough for you? We can go further.

Preta could absorb Asura too, when he goes into Asura form. Not to mention Choji when when he uses cho-baika or meat tank, and most especially Yamato's arm when he turns it into a tree, or Danzo's arm when it sprouts. In fact, if someone uses henge, he can just eat all of them because they've altered their entire body with chakra.

We can even go another step if you really, really, want to.

Since all modifications done with chakra become a chakra construct, and no chakra construct can ever become a true living thing (as per your insistence that mokuton life is absorb-able), anyone who has ever performed henge, cho baika, or healed with medical jutsu (which uses chakra as energy to create rapid cell growth) has irreversibly turned their body into a chakra construct can be completely absorbed by Preta.

Though we clearly have scans of Yamato turning his arm and parts of his body to wood, and then back again, and reabsorbing his mokubunshin, so in addition to being absurd, it also contradicts canon if you wanted to sustain some of your needed premises anyway.

However we can just say Preta can't absorb Mokuton or life and move on.

Spoiler

Mokuton is a combination of water and earth natures. Though no one has utilized it without the direct injection of Hashirama's cells, indicating that it is indeed a different type of Ninjutsu which only Hashirama's cells work with.

The same cannot be said about Lava Release, Dust Release or Magnet Release, as there are several users who don't seem to be related, thus have different cellular structures.

There is literally no such thing as "natural element." Because elements are part of nature. But this Ninjutsu isn't really just chakra based, as it canonically has created life, which will continue to create life when filtered with Yang chakra (Naruto's KCM Cloak)- as no other Ninjutsu has. I would assume it is partly a Yang construct because it creates life from nothing, but who cares enough to go that deep into it? It's just too hard to figure out.

The only real explanation, as stated canonically, is Hashirama's cells are supernaturally filled with life force (just like Karin and Nagato), as and such, his chakra has the ability to create life (Mokuton), his body can recover faster (Zetsu durability), and can control Natural Energy (SM) and his normal chakra (like Tsunade's medical ninjutsu control) with ease. It's also implied that his chakra is of it's own caliber when Orochimaru used it to increase the restraint and effectiveness of Edo Tensei.

I have to agree that it cannot be absorbed, but attempting to absorb it will not turn someone into stone: that only works with Natural Energy (SM)- not nature transformation (Mokuton). The one absorbing would simply be crushed by the wood.

Now if he tried to absorb SM Hashirama's Mokuton- then we can argue that he'd turn to stone and be crushed.


I'd like to see whether or not The BD thinks Magnet Release (KG), Explosion Release (KG), Gaara'a landscape-obliterating sand wave (KG?), Deidara's C3 Explosion/Clay (KG/Hiden), Shikamaru's shadow (Ying-Yang/Hiden), Ma/Pa's Frog Call (Sage Art), Super-expanded Choji (Hiden/Calorie Control), Kimimaro's Bone Forest (KG), Ino's Mind Control (Hiden), Naruto's Frog Kata (Sage Art), Onoki's/Mu's Flight (?), Onoki's Weight Control (Doton), Onoki's Mobile Golem (Doton), Kitsuchi's Sandwich (Doton), Kitsuchi's Moving Earth Core (Doton), Mu's Camouflage/Body Splitting (Ninjutsu/?), can be absorbed entirely as well- as they also are formed from chakra.

Not everything controlled or created from chakra can be absorbed. It simply isn't logical.

These prove it. Gaara's sand wasn't absorbed by preta path incase you don't agree with this, which would be pretty ignorant [

You must be registered for see links

]. Even if Hotei Jutsu is absorbed, it will remain their once its enclosed on the summons.

Thank you once again for proving that you don't know how the 6 paths of pain works. I will say it once more, 6 paths of pain are puppets Nagato is manipulating with his chakra through the black rod [

You must be registered for see links

]. That means every jutsu or movement they do is Nagato himself doing it but using another body. When the rain jutsu activated, Nagato himself activated through the deva path. That's not a hype or unseen feats, that's an actual feat and fact (not speculation). Therefore he can use them in battle like manga proved. Again you don't know what you're talking about. Itachi felt pressure because a large amount of chakra is concentrated in his eyes. Obito did the same thing as Nagato did and said in a more detailed way. Its you who is blind to see it. So now mindless jinchuriki = Nagato's lmao. You really don't know what you're talking about nor you're not analysing what manga is showing. You made it sound that torii gates are impossible to avoid, and like i shown, their falling speed are not as fast as you make them sound. Like i proved above, Nagato can avoid them. Unfortunately i have proved your argument WRONG. You said bringer of darkness can bind Nagato, and Hiruzen's senses were not effected with the exception of his eyes. Sensory powers do the trick. Point defeated. Mokuton bunshin chakra are disturbed and Nagato rinnegan can see that chakra being less than real Hashirama. I proved it with a Madara confirming it. You used raiton bunshin but i defeated. Point finished. Hobei is countered by ST.

Yes, true. But who said that in this given occasion, Nagato wasn't the one who used it. Deva can only control attraction and repulsion forces. You would have to be naive to believe someone who controls attraction and repulsion can make the sky rain. This further adds missing blanks which cannot be filled without the manga elaborating. Again, I have told you, even if it was possible for Nagato to sense chakra build up within the eye, he hasn't shown it. He has only shown to sense the pressure, hence why I will not give him a feat based on your interpretation when manga doesn't prove it. Again, you don't know its falling speed and nor do I, but knowing it is huge, and is free falling in the sky, it's speed is only logically quick. I am not giving it a certain speed, nor am I claiming a single one cannot be dodged by Nagato; I am simply stating he cannot dodge 10 as the radius is too big [

You must be registered for see links

]. Nagato can sense pressure and a person who's chakra is directly transmitted to his. Not that amazing, especially worthy of outrunning a Tori gate blind noticed by noticing the pressure within the air. Nagato perception=/=Nagato's perception. I have shown Madara claimed to use techniques to accomplish a difference, and not his regular EMS. [

You must be registered for see links

] By the way, If you reread I have said multiple times it can only remove his sight, and not any other senses.. I have defeated the Raiton Bunshin assumption you made with my generous calculations, once again using your delusions to attempt and act superior when you are indeed losing this debate.

So now you're saying Nagato can do the same is a hype. Okay pal, then show me scans of Hashirama protecting his clones with hobei no jutsu?
Show me scans of Hashirama clones performing torii gates?

Unless you can show me these hypes that we haven't seen then all of your posts were nothing but speculation BS since Hashirama has shown them like you claim. That's why i don't like debating people who use the same logic as you're doing. Nagato not showing something doesn't mean he cant do it. Lock that in your head.

I did not state he couldn't replicate what his paths did, you are simply twisting my sentences to favour your arguments. In fact I will quote my self here:

What? He is the one who empowers the path to use it, it is his chakra and him weaving signs if any after all. Your logic is flawed to think he can't use it because he didn't show it, even when the path's showed he could use it. He can do anything the paths do since he has the rinnegan. However, boosting his ability only because it was stated he was faster is hype. You can say he's faster, but do we know how much faster? No is the answer

Your desperate points don't make sense. It is like saying Hashirama cannot stand on a bed only because he hasn't shown too.. I am simply saying you can't boost any given ability by your own need. I believe you can say CT would be double sized and it counts as logic, but saying it is 6 times the size is absurd and an assumption. I dislike debating with people cannot interpret and read my points correctly (no insult intended).

Too bad you haven't. And Nagato absorbs it with preta path, so what's your point. Why Hashirama use the same move over and over. You make it look as if Hashirama has knowledge on rinnegan but he doesn't. So he isn't keep using the same thing over and over. No offence dude but i don't know if you're dumb or blind. In the panel where you showed Hashirama creating clones, none of them had SM. In the other scan, that wasn't Hashirama clone, that was the real Hashirama, i don't what BS you made. If clones can use them, Hashirama wouldn't bother staying with hokages and let his clones do the torii gates while he goes and does the work himself. Yet again you haven't proved anything what so ever. So torii gates remains as technique Hashirama clones cant perform. You need scans of Hashirama performing 50 gates since he hasn't shown which means he doesn't have that feat. Your logic.

I have disproved he absorbs it, so your point isn't viable. Insult only proves your anger towards being mad that I am disproving all your arguments. Once again I shall prove it. Here [

You must be registered for see links

] he creates

You must be registered for see links

. Look at his hand deals their, now look at his hand seals when creating Mukoton Bunshin the next chapter [

You must be registered for see links

] and after that, goes on to create another huge Tori gate [

You must be registered for see links

] with different hand signs. So no where is it seen they can use it, you are correct, but I have now proved he isn't vulnerable when using Tori gate as doesn't have to hold the signs like you claimed. This is all the real hashirma, since you yourself stated you could distinguish the real Hashirama from the fake one by looking if he was in SM or not. Unfortunately for you, you disproved my remodified point, and reproved my prior point. Hashirama does not need to hold his hands in any way, he can remove his hand signs without releasing the Tori Gate, which I believed was logic at any rate.

You really lack a sense of logic and common sense. First of all, you cant prove deathbed Nagato CT is smaller than Shinsuusenju so your point is void as well. I can because the CT performed by deathbed Nagato was almost the size of konoha.

This is buddah size > [

You must be registered for see links

] [

You must be registered for see links

]

CT size > [

You must be registered for see links

]

They're about as equal but CT will keep getting bigger until it dwarfs Shinsuusenju as Nagato can put more chakra into it [

You must be registered for see links

].

CT grows as time passes. If Shinsusenju is activates, it will be the first thing next to the CT since it is the highest up. That means that it will only further receive an advantage as it could smash the CT while it's still small.

Not sure if you're being stupid, but that arm that picked Kyuubi up was Shinsuusenju own arm [

You must be registered for see links

]. You can see its actual arm was still there. Hobei no jutsu was not there. What BS is this? Hashirama was standing on his statue when it came out and now you're claiming that he can control it without standing on top of it. Scans or it will be ignored. Shinsuusenju wont do crap to CT. The arms of the statue are as durable as mountains since PS blade (that destroyed mountains) destroyed them. CT was shown to be able to absorb mountains into the core which means the shinsuusenju getting close means Hashirama will be flying away from the statue and crushed.
Once again proving you don't WTH you're talking about. But i am not here giving you lessons.

You cant prove that Hashirama wont be stabbed considering SM Naruto and Kakashi have shows you overrated like him hell. Everything you said have been defeated but obviously do not want to admit it. Only if you look at my posts rather making claims about how Hashirama can use all of these with clones despite not having the feat to show them Lol.

What? I said Shinsusenju's hand overpowered it, as in its fingers were able to stop the 100% Kyuubi from escaping, when the 50% 8 tailed Kyuubi escaped a CT from Deva paths which was quite large. Hobi is clearly their...[

You must be registered for see links

], bottom left panel, wood dragon and hobo ar together, meaning indeed it was the Hibo.He is still on the Shinsusenju, but this Shinsusenju is linked to his Hobi Justu.

You're the unknowledgeable one in this argument as always.. PS Blade is slicing power+force. It sliced the mountain top [

You must be registered for see links

], it didn't destroy it; but everything along the paths. Absorbing mountains=heavy attraction, which does not equal heavy slicing capability or anything apart from powerful attraction. That is like saying the Kyuubi can tank PS swipes all it wants because it was capable of tanking a destructive power jutsu such as the Juubi laser. Again, destructive power =/=slicing power. Your comparison is laughable at best, that is like saying I could cut a paper with a scissor but can't break it with a hammer, so the scissor is much stronger. Hashirama is with the Hobi, he will not fly away, the only thing occurring is a Chōjō Kebutsu which absolutely obliterates CT.

You are only countering my offensive arguments, you had yet to state anything that can finish this match apart from CT, which is destroyed by a Shinsusenju, since the largest CT shown yet in the manga was escaped by an 8 tailed 50% Kurama. Shinsusenju isn't going to simply watch the CT grow, wait for it to reach its maximum size, and then attack. Moreover, 100% 8 tails Kurama is at most 88.89% of the power of 100% 9 tails considering each tail contains chakra. and 8/9=.8888888x100=88.89%. 100%*x=50%=0.5 0.5*88.89=44.445% of current Kurama. Meaning a 44.445% (at most is 44.445, could be less) Kurama broke out. Shinsusenju plays around with it even if it had 2 times its attraction. However, it would never actually be trapped, since the Shinsusenju's height allows it to reach the core much quicker than the majority of the things around it despite its mass. It's already quite close to the core when CT starts off due to its massive height. So going up a little won't be much of a problem while Hashirama is sitting in the Hobi.

Naruto didn't attempt to dodge and fight, he only went to speak. On the other hand, Kakashi + Naruto SM=/=Hashi SM. I have no idea what you are tying to say in the last sentence apart from all my points being defeated, which is definitely not true. The only things that are defeated are your desperate attempts of twisting words, lacked differentiation in jutsu names, constant hype, and interpreting scans in your own ways.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Debate hasn't finished in my time zone yet son..

 

[Multiply]

Debate hasn't finished in my time zone yet son..

Damn he's thirsty to finish him. Go head boy, tear that shit up U_U

#TurnUp #KillTheseNiggas #ControlVerse #RapGod #HardInThePaint #DwightHoward

 

[NarutoIndra]

Damn he's thirsty to finish him. Go head boy, tear that shit up U_U

#TurnUp #KillTheseNiggas #ControlVerse #RapGod #HardInThePaint #DwightHoward

Lmao. I had already made my post before this comment, just clarifying that it counts due to the time he received for writing a post whereas I received barely any.

 

[Bronze]

Then why the hell didn't write your time zone in the first place then?

Anyway since you said that your last reply will be your last argument, then lets stop the debate. I will go and get judges.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Then why the hell didn't write your time zone in the first place then?

Anyway since you said that your last reply will be your last argument, then lets stop the debate. I will go and get judges.

I think Nous wants to be judge so add him if you want.

 

[Bronze]

I think Nous wants to be judge so add him if you want.

Yes he said it to me. I already have him.

 

[Zexion~]

Wait so all i have to do is vote in the poll for the victor?

After i read through everything?

 

[Bronze]

Wait so all i have to do is vote in the poll for the victor?

After i read through everything?

Yes, how else will you know who won if you haven't read the whole thing.

 

[Zexion~]

Yes, how else will you know who won if you haven't read the whole thing.

Yeaaahh...


Alrightie then i'll do it after school

 

[NarutoIndra]

Why dont they post who won Since anyone could vote on the pole which would flaw the results. I would also like reason behind why they believe 'x'won

 

[Rainbow Dash]

Awww shit the votes are tied. This is a close match.

 

[Bronze]

Why dont they post who won Since anyone could vote on the pole which would flaw the results. I would also like reason behind why they believe 'x'won

Sh1t i didn't think of that. Just only take the vote of the judges. Those who aren't, their vote isn't important basically, so ignore them.

 

[Nous]

Eloquent.. I would state that Madara Rules is the winner but only by slightly. Had to read a couple of times to conclude upon a winner. I would say it is Madara as you utilized Tendō in a strategic manner to force Naruto Indra into a corner at times; most notably, regarding Chibaku Tensei. You also disbanded some of Naruto's claims. I will congratulate you on that. You also abused Gakidō to an unimaginable extent as well and were able to keep on bar with Naruto when in regards to Senpō.

Naruto Indra, you did quite a good job as well. The way you utilized Hashirama's chakura reserves was admirable and how he could employ one technique after another in an illustrious fashion. However, there was one con with your argument. I feel as if you didn't abuse Hashirama's larger scale techniques as much as you could have. For example, you could have utilized Rashōmon quite a bit more as Nagato has limited speed feats and Gedō Mazō can then be killed by Shinsusenju, which you could have used more. Moreover, I think you should have stood by your Sennin Mōdo stance that you had in the beginning more but nevertheless, you did great. Another points you did quite a good job in is noting how some of Madara's hype based arguments were of falsity.

Good Debate. Extremely close...

​

 

[Bronze]

Thank you Nous.

Looks like i have 1 vote from a judge. I will contact the other judges to get them to judge as well.