Hashirama vs Edo Madara + EMS Sasuke

[shelke]

@Kidgamer

No I have read the manga and understood it properly as well. Please, don't consider yourself a measuring stick. It's getting laughable. Jugo's ability was highlighted for the Sage Mode. The whole thing opens with this "I have the force of Nature on my side" and it was gained through the cave, which was found through Jugo. Even a retard can make this connection. One doesn't even need to be that intelligent. Great assumption about Jugo. Awesome.

- So this is what you are going with? The manga doesn't say so and so, so I am right? Hilarious. Kabuto clearly states that it isn't Jugo's ability he is using but it's something that can ONLY be gained through training at the Cave. Love the retorts regardless. Keep posting this point. It doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

- And? You think I don't know that? what does it have to do with the summoning time? I am still lost on the big picture here. Kindly fill in the large holes left in your logic. What the frogs do for Jiraiya is absorb N-Energy whilst he stays in SM. Still no proof in regards to the slow summoning time? Thought so.

- Oh geez wow. The whole point of SM is to learn to master Sage Arts. Learning to knead the energy is literally the first step. Now according to you, once you do that, go home. You are done. Everything comes automatically. I am not even going to bother with this one.

- At first your point was 'he was talking the whole time'. I showed you scans where people were doing so and even moved a little. Now it's a complete 180 degree. How much more Bullshit will you type?

Your whole argument started with this:

You can't gather Nature Energy while you are moving even a little bit, which Hashirama was doing when talking to Madara.

Hashirama didn't move the whole time, so your entire argument in this regard is completely wrong. All he did was talk, which all characters have done whilst gathering energy.

- Throw BM Naruto out of this. You have no argument to link him up with Hashriama. None. You do realize that Kurama was rejecting Hermit Mode, which would make it tough.

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- When he drew upon Kurama's chakra unwillingly, all his clones with Sage Chakra disappeared, because the modes were not harmonized. Him drawing Natural Energy faster could have something to do with this. Heck, I didn't even say it once that it's some kind of manga fact. In fact, I have repeatedly asked you to prove your point with a dialogue here, and even stated that 'mine is no better than yours' and still you are using the exact same nonsense? Since this is what your ENTIRE logic hinges on. I get the half-baked logic.

- Funny, Kabuto should have more Base Chakra than Naruto in his form, and yet, his is not faster. In fact, he is slower. We have no idea about how large Jiraiya's chakra's reserves were and yet, his is a lot slower than Naruto whose reserves according to Kakashi are only twice - at least and roughly should be thrice at the most - more than Kakashi's. When Kakashi himself states he has 'little' chakra reserves. Your argument is rubbish, UNTIL proven otherwise by the manga.

Don't then. Since you started this whole rubbish -

- Kabuto has Jugo's cells - Kidgamer's sub-par fiction, when it's CLEARLY denied in the manga.
- Hashirama initiated his SM in a second. Laughable. Not a shred of proof other than final metamorphosis.
- Jiraiya cannot enter SM without the frogs - Something I never denied, NOT once.

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- "All Three Sanins have their own Unique skills". Without Kneading Natural Energy for himself, He cannot even be in SM at all. He should have fused first and then proceeded to enter in SM. But the summoning took him THAT long? Laughable.
- Started the whole rubbish with 'talking' crap, when ALL characters have done so - Gem.
- Large Chakra pool means quicker absorption of NE. Totally backed by manga.

What else? Still nothing to back up your one-second logic other than self-made interpretations surrounding large Chakra pools and what not.

 

[Dark Artist]

only an idiot or a wood rider will think that hashirama win

Madara solos , adding Sasuke is too much

 

[Dark Artist]

my man Madara rules , and my Bro shelike , and unorthodox

Destroyed the kingdom heart Fanboy in Debating with Facts ( as always ) lol

i agree with you guys , you both solo the thread !

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Madara and Sasuke win, even if Shinsuusenju is released. Focusing Perfect Susano'O's sword shockwaves at its feat will allow gravity to do the rest.​

my man Madara rules , and my Bro shelike , and unorthodox

Destroyed the kingdom heart Fanboy in Debating with Facts ( as always ) lol

i agree with you guys , you both solo the thread !

Shelke is the only one out of that group worth mentioning. I don't even see why KG is bothering to reply to the other two.​

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer

No I have read the manga and understood it properly as well. Please, don't consider yourself a measuring stick. It's getting laughable. Jugo's ability was highlighted for the Sage Mode. The whole thing opens with this "I have the force of Nature on my side" and it was gained through the cave, which was found through Jugo. Even a retard can make this connection. One doesn't even need to be that intelligent. Great assumption about Jugo. Awesome.

Did I say that this thing about Jugo and Ryuichido was false? No. He gained Sage Mode from the cave and can constantly absorb Nature Energy through Jugo's cells. What you are saying doesn't contradict anything that was already stated in the goddamn manga. If you have understood the damn manga properly then this discussion wouldn't have ever happened.

Assumption?

-Its an assumption that he gathers Nature Energy without moving?
-Its an assumption that Kabuto got his ability to absorb Nature Energy w/o moving?

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No, its not.

- So this is what you are going with? The manga doesn't say so and so, so I am right? Hilarious. Kabuto clearly states that it isn't Jugo's ability he is using but it's something that can ONLY be gained through training at the Cave. Love the retorts regardless. Keep posting this point. It doesn't make it any less ludicrous.

-He isn't using Jugo's ability to gain Sage Mode, as you need to train at Ryuichido to obtain Sage Mode

-He is using Jugo's ability to absorb Nature Energy on the go, which is not an ability gained at Ryuichido or any other place as its stated you need to stay still in order to enter Sage Mode.

-Do you even know what the hell Kabuto refers to when he says "Jugo's ability". Wait, why am I asking this? If you knew then these ridiculous attempts to counter the manga wouldn't have been made.

-When Sasuke referred to Jugo's ability, he was referring to the Curse Mark, as he clearly stated "Were you attacked by Orochimaru's Cursed Seal?"

-Kabuto states that Curse Mark is nothing but a pretension trick, the real ability is via self training at Ryuichido. The real ability is Sage Mode.

This doesn't change anything that was stated about Kabuto having the ability to passively absorb Nature Energy. Nothing at all. Kabuto never even denied he had Jugo's ability to passively get Nature energy, he only denied the fact he had the Curse Mark ability.

- And? You think I don't know that? what does it have to do with the summoning time? I am still lost on the big picture here. Kindly fill in the large holes left in your logic. What the frogs do for Jiraiya is absorb N-Energy whilst he stays in SM. Still no proof in regards to the slow summoning time? Thought so.

-Jiraiya can't enter Sage Mode without them.

-Thus Jiraiya summoned them and then entered Sage Mode.

That's a fact, do I care about the summoning time? No, cause I already have everything I need that makes your idiotic point about him gathering Nature Energy false.

The frogs also let him enter Sage Mode in the first place, that's a manga fact. Not debatable.

- Oh geez wow. The whole point of SM is to learn to master Sage Arts. Learning to knead the energy is literally the first step. Now according to you, once you do that, go home. You are done. Everything comes automatically. I am not even going to bother with this one.

-There are different parts to mastering Sage Mode, the first step has been completed. Nothing more to do on it besides increase the time.

-Still waiting for some legit back up on this "You don't need to be still to gather Nature Energy" nonsense, cause so far, everything you've posted on the matter is bullshit. We have multiple scans of Naruto entering SM by staying still, in and outside of training. We have Fukasaku stating that SM is risky in battle since you need to be still to enter it yet this guy over here says the manga is wrong.....

@bold: No, that's according to your inability to read a post and the manga.

- At first your point was 'he was talking the whole time'. I showed you scans where people were doing so and even moved a little. Now it's a complete 180 degree. How much more Bullshit will you type?

Your whole argument started with this:



Hashirama didn't move the whole time, so your entire argument in this regard is completely wrong. All he did was talk, which all characters have done whilst gathering energy.

When I said he moved a little I was referring to him swinging his head around and looking up and moving his head around a bit when he was talking about Naruto. "When he was talking to Madara" was only the way to specify what instance I was talking about.

Not once did I say he couldn't talk while gathering Nature Energy.

- Throw BM Naruto out of this. You have no argument to link him up with Hashriama. None. You do realize that Kurama was rejecting Hermit Mode, which would make it tough.

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- When he drew upon Kurama's chakra unwillingly, all his clones with Sage Chakra disappeared, because the modes were not harmonized. Him drawing Natural Energy faster could have something to do with this. Heck, I didn't even say it once that it's some kind of manga fact. In fact, I have repeatedly asked you to prove your point with a dialogue here, and even stated that 'mine is no better than yours' and still you are using the exact same nonsense? Since this is what your ENTIRE logic hinges on. I get the half-baked logic.

What the f*ck am I reading? That is completely unrelated to entering Sage Mode, the fact you brought this nonsense only shows that you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about.

-His clones poofed because going into fox mode disrupted his chakra. This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact the modes weren't harmonized, that is completely unsupported by manga.

Naruto's clones in pain once Kurama's red cloak appeared on the original.

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He clearly stated "My clones poofed because my chakra was disturbed" Its as simple as that, don't try to add your own meaning to what was already stated in the damn manga. Not once was it ever implied its because Sage Chakra and Kurama's chakra weren't harmonized when he clearly states its because it was disrupted. Is this all you can do? Twist the manga and add your own meanings to try and make your argument valid?

I'm not interested in anything you have to say on what Naruto said or why the clones poofed because manga gave a simple explanation.

I never even said what I said was a fact, I only said that the nonsense you are spewing is nothing but fanfiction that has absolutely zero base, while mine, has a base. The fact that the two with the largest chakra pools enter SM faster than the others.

- Funny, Kabuto should have more Base Chakra than Naruto in his form, and yet, his is not faster. In fact, he is slower. We have no idea about how large Jiraiya's chakra's reserves were and yet, his is a lot slower than Naruto whose reserves according to Kakashi are only twice - at least and roughly should be thrice at the most - more than Kakashi's. When Kakashi himself states he has 'little' chakra reserves. Your argument is rubbish, UNTIL proven otherwise by the manga.

Then I guess I'm wrong about why his is faster but:

-Doesn't change the fact that the bullshit you were spewing makes no sense.

-Doesn't change the fact that he enters Sage Mode faster than everyone else, as the manga has shown twice now.

Don't then. Since you started this whole rubbish -

- Kabuto has Jugo's cells - Kidgamer's sub-par fiction, when it's CLEARLY denied in the manga.

He clearly says he studied the bodies of Sasuke's comrades and got their abilities or abilities based on theirs. It wasn't even denied in the manga, but since you have problems reading it, I'm not surprised.

- Hashirama initiated his SM in a second. Laughable. Not a shred of proof other than final metamorphosis.

He entered it quickly vs. Madara and in the war arc the only rebuttal you have on the matter is that they skipped it in the war arc, which is absolutely laughable since there is no time period to be skipped.

- Jiraiya cannot enter SM without the frogs - Something I never denied, NOT once.

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- "All Three Sanins have their own Unique skills". Without Kneading Natural Energy for himself, He cannot even be in SM at all. He should have fused first and then proceeded to enter in SM. But the summoning took him THAT long? Laughable.

Then there is no debate here, the summoning took him that long because that is what the manga shows. "Laughable" isn't a goddamn rebuttal now is it.

-He summoned them first and entered Sage Mode after he called on them. Manga FACT. Not my problem if you can't deal with it.

-He can't enter SM by himself, that makes the above the only scenario. Manga fact.

-He wasn't gathering Nature Energy to enter Sage Mode, that's another fact as he wasn't trying to enter Sage Mode in the first place, he was calling on Ma and Pa.

- Started the whole rubbish with 'talking' crap, when ALL characters have done so - Gem.

Your inability to correctly read a post led you to that conclusion.

- Large Chakra pool means quicker absorption of NE. Totally backed by manga.

I know that this was wrong now, but it doesn't change anything I've said. Nothing at all.
What else? Still nothing to back up your one-second logic other than self-made interpretations surrounding large Chakra pools and what not.

After going over your whole post. I still see nothing backing up this "You don't need to be still to enter Sage Mode" bullshit.

Madara and Sasuke win, even if Shinsuusenju is released. Focusing Perfect Susano'O's sword shockwaves at its feat will allow gravity to do the rest.​

Even Mokujin was able to

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, I highly doubt they are going to cut through is feet and make it fall all before Hashirama attacks them. I

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what you are saying did happen so it wouldn't fall backward.

 

[shelke]

@Kidgamer

Keep your replies short. Thanking in advance. I have other things to do as well. I am going to start the trend of keeping it short:

- Where does it state that? I need proof not your interpretations. What is denied in the manga is denied. Sasuke "Is that Jugo's ability?" Kabuto, "No. That can only be attained via training". There, no room for debate.

- Same repeated things. Kabuto studied Jugo to learn the location of the cave for Dragon Sage Mode. Even Orochimaru did, but failed as he lacked the body for it. It's explained quite thoroughly in that chapter. As for the future reference, I am dropping this point altogether. When someone argues for the sake of arguing, there is just no hope for that.

- Still no proof for Large Chakra allowing Hashirama to enter Sage Mode faster? So you have no argument. Simple. There can be interpretations but using it as some kind of logic is flawed argumentation.

- Really? Kindly push that scan my way. Jiraiya entered Sage Mode Together with the Senin Frogs. There is NO scan for your argument.

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- The Frog here clearly mentions that Entering this mode is the first step. He even creates a comparison here, which means Jiraiya went through the same process -

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.

-

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- Entering Sage Mode requires using ALL three. What do you want me to believe? That the frogs harmonized the energies for him? No. There is no proof for your summoning argument as well. Jiraiya can enter SM but he cannot use it for Extensive Sage arts, as his mode is imperfect -

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.

This is further backed by Frog's statement for Jiraiya -

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. That he gathered Nature for him in order to facilitate the process and to extend the time -

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- Something Naruto couldn't manage without Fusion, which is why Jiraiya's SM is longer and Naruto's is only 5 minutes if he uses clones to gather natural energy.

- Manga facts yet there is no scan for this. Here, let me make it easier for you -

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- Sends the summon away -

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- Already in SM, proved by the feature alterations commented on by one of the frogs -

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-

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- Look at the Large Nose. He is already in SM WITH the Senin Frogs. Don't know what kind of rebuttals you want.

Is that all? Still nothing baking the one second BS.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer

Keep your replies short. Thanking in advance. I have other things to do as well. I am going to start the trend of keeping it short:

- Where does it state that? I need proof not your interpretations. What is denied in the manga is denied. Sasuke "Is that Jugo's ability?" Kabuto, "No. That can only be attained via training". There, no room for debate.

Did you just skip over the part where he clearly asked him whether or not he has the Cursed Seal's power? Are you kidding me?

If what you were saying is true then this would have to be true as well.

-Gathering Nature Energy passively can only be learned at Ryuichido.

Which is obviously false as Jugo has never been to Ryuichido but can still passively gather Nature Energy. Like I said, nothing you are saying contradicts anything in the manga. Its already a fact that Kabuto can gather Nature Energy, whether you can deal with it or not isn't my problem.

- Same repeated things. Kabuto studied Jugo to learn the location of the cave for Dragon Sage Mode. Even Orochimaru did, but failed as he lacked the body for it. It's explained quite thoroughly in that chapter. As for the future reference, I am dropping this point altogether. When someone argues for the sake of arguing, there is just no hope for that.

Kabuto gained the ability to passively gather Nature Energy and then learned how to enter Sage Mode from Ryuichido, which was found through Jugo's clan.

Every thing I stated was already said in the manga. Not my problem if you don't want to accept it.

- Still no proof for Large Chakra allowing Hashirama to enter Sage Mode faster? So you have no argument. Simple. There can be interpretations but using it as some kind of logic is flawed argumentation.

My argument consists of scans that show him entering Sage Mode quickly, that was nothing but an attempt to explain why it is so fast. So yes, I still have an argument, can't say the same for you though.

"They skipped it" Isn't a proper rebuttal pal. Get that through your thick little skull.

- Really? Kindly push that scan my way. Jiraiya entered Sage Mode Together with the Senin Frogs. There is NO scan for your argument.

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- The Frog here clearly mentions that Entering this mode is the first step. He even creates a comparison here, which means Jiraiya went through the same process -

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.

Here we go again with your shit reading comprehension. There is no scan for my argument? Please re-read the manga before replying with the same old bullshit.

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I'm not interested in any thing else you have to add on the matter. Jiraiya can't use Sage Mode without Ma and Pa and that is a goddamn manga fact.

-

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- Entering Sage Mode requires using ALL three. What do you want me to believe? That the frogs harmonized the energies for him? No. There is no proof for your summoning argument as well. Jiraiya can enter SM but he cannot use it for Extensive Sage arts, as his mode is imperfect -

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.

Gathering Nature Energy is not the same as controlling and balancing it, so again, there is no contradiction here at all. Jiraiya can't use Sage Mode by himself, that is a fact and I'm not interested in anything you have to say on the matter.

This is further backed by Frog's statement for Jiraiya -

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. That he gathered Nature for him in order to facilitate the process and to extend the time -

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- Something Naruto couldn't manage without Fusion, which is why Jiraiya's SM is longer and Naruto's is only 5 minutes if he uses clones to gather natural energy.

No its not as it doesn't contradict the fact that he can't enter Sage Mode by himself, as the Frogs themselves clearly stated. "Learn how to use the Sage Mode on your own" It can't get any clearer than that.

Not to mention their statement refers to the fact that you can't gather Nature Energy while mobile, it has nothing to do with the time limit nor was that even mentioned. Nice job twisting the manga's words though.

- Manga facts yet there is no scan for this. Here, let me make it easier for you -

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- Sends the summon away -

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- Already in SM, proved by the feature alterations commented on by one of the frogs -

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-

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- Look at the Large Nose. He is already in SM WITH the Senin Frogs. Don't know what kind of rebuttals you want.

Is that all? Still nothing baking the one second BS.

He summoned them right to his body as the Databook states he does, which put him in Sage Mode. Don't know why you are still trying to tell me he entered Sage Mode without them when:

Spoiler

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It was already freaking stated that he can't enter it without them? Are you blind? Are you unable to see this scan? To see these words that clearly debunk everything you are trying to say on this matter? My god.

Here is the Databook entry for Sage Mode:

Sage* Mode (仙人モード, Sennin Mo-do)
Senjutsu, No rank, Supplementary
User: Jiraiya

The lion-like child of the toads is overflowing with spirit!!
Wielding the "senjutsu" that surpasses ninjutsu!!

The form form Jiraiya showed to use senjutsu during his decisive battle with Pain. He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu (仙術, Sage Techniques), rapidly increasing the level of all techniques, be it ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu!! By uniting with the Two Great Toad Sages into one body, they can cooperate like a Trinity. This is certainly the domain of Sages.

[picture of Jiraiya drawing an extra line on his face with his blood]
→↓He Draws a line under both his eyes using his own blood. Using this as a substitute for the "contract seal of blood,"** he can summon the legendary Two Great Toad Sages into his own body.
[picture of Jiraiya in Sage Mode, with Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders]

*Sennin (仙人, "sage") are a kind of immortal super-humans from Chinese and Japanese mythology. They are basically humans (or the spirits of humans) that have lived as hermits and have become so great that they gained the power to perform certain miracles and became immortal. One of the most famous Sennin is the Gama Sennin, or Toad Sage, from whom Jiraiya got his nickname.
**Keiyaku no Keppan (契約の血判); the blood one needs to sacrifice before summoning something.

He summoned them directly to his body thus entering Sage Mode, its been stated that he can't use it on his own. There is no debate here.

 

[Dark Artist]

@Kidgamer

Keep your replies short. Thanking in advance. I have other things to do as well. I am going to start the trend of keeping it short:

- Where does it state that? I need proof not your interpretations. What is denied in the manga is denied. Sasuke "Is that Jugo's ability?" Kabuto, "No. That can only be attained via training". There, no room for debate.

- Same repeated things. Kabuto studied Jugo to learn the location of the cave for Dragon Sage Mode. Even Orochimaru did, but failed as he lacked the body for it. It's explained quite thoroughly in that chapter. As for the future reference, I am dropping this point altogether. When someone argues for the sake of arguing, there is just no hope for that.

- Still no proof for Large Chakra allowing Hashirama to enter Sage Mode faster? So you have no argument. Simple. There can be interpretations but using it as some kind of logic is flawed argumentation.

- Really? Kindly push that scan my way. Jiraiya entered Sage Mode Together with the Senin Frogs. There is NO scan for your argument.

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- The Frog here clearly mentions that Entering this mode is the first step. He even creates a comparison here, which means Jiraiya went through the same process -

You must be registered for see links

.

-

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- Entering Sage Mode requires using ALL three. What do you want me to believe? That the frogs harmonized the energies for him? No. There is no proof for your summoning argument as well. Jiraiya can enter SM but he cannot use it for Extensive Sage arts, as his mode is imperfect -

You must be registered for see links

.

This is further backed by Frog's statement for Jiraiya -

You must be registered for see links

. That he gathered Nature for him in order to facilitate the process and to extend the time -

You must be registered for see links

- Something Naruto couldn't manage without Fusion, which is why Jiraiya's SM is longer and Naruto's is only 5 minutes if he uses clones to gather natural energy.

- Manga facts yet there is no scan for this. Here, let me make it easier for you -

You must be registered for see links

- Sends the summon away -

You must be registered for see links

- Already in SM, proved by the feature alterations commented on by one of the frogs -

You must be registered for see links

-

You must be registered for see links

- Look at the Large Nose. He is already in SM WITH the Senin Frogs. Don't know what kind of rebuttals you want.

Is that all? Still nothing baking the one second BS.

LOL

+ REP

you Owned and Destroyed this kid

totally agree , Very logical points and true FACTS here

 

[Unorthodox]

Shelke is the only one out of that group worth mentioning. I don't even see why KG is bothering to reply to the other two.​

The irony!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bogard]

Sasuke is a non-factor so Hashirama should win, but since he none of them have sealing techniques, it will be an eternal battle

 

[shelke]

@Kidgamer

- Still no proof, I see? You mean how he denied it and told him about the Sage Training at the Cave? Oh really? Kindly show me the proof of this self-made Passive energy gathering. Until then, it's Bullshit of the highest order.

- No actually, if you HAD a decent set of eyes and good common sense, then you would know how the manga doesn't repeat every process. Hashriama's first entry into SM still holds and is just as valid. Just because it doesn't sit well with your little story, doesn't make it any less acceptable.

- Nice school-girl insults. I already showed you scans where Jiraiya - let me put in in Caps-lock for you - 'ENTERED' in SM with the Frogs. Where is your proof otherwise? Oh I see, there is none. Forget my comprehension skills, you need a nice set of dust-free eyes, because he was never in Base-Mode when he fused with them. This is further proved by the frog's comparisons and the basic harmonization of three energies for SM - ALL present in the scans I already posted. Moving on as you still have squat on you, other than petty insults that might break a hormonal 13 year old girl's heart.

Then there is no debate here, the summoning took him that long because that is what the manga shows. "Laughable" isn't a goddamn rebuttal now is it.

-He summoned them first and entered Sage Mode after he called on them. Manga FACT. Not my problem if you can't deal with it.

-He can't enter SM by himself, that makes the above the only scenario. Manga fact.

-He wasn't gathering Nature Energy to enter Sage Mode, that's another fact as he wasn't trying to enter Sage Mode in the first place, he was calling on Ma and Pa.

You sure love to spin 180 degrees with your logic. At one end you state that he first summoned them and then entered into SM, when I was the one who was against this and now it's the other way around? Here is a thought, genius - his SM is imperfect, which means the balance of energies is imperfect. It means that he needs to summon them to gorge upon the energy so that he can stay in the mode.

Why are you showing me the databook page? What did I say that doesn't exactly align with it? I said he cannot user SM but he can enter an imperfect SM. The data book doesn't dispute anything I have said. The point that you may bring up later on to complain about, is this:

He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu

This is utterly garbage as far as the Frog's comparison of Jiraiya NOT absorbing NE as effectively as Naruto goes. Whether it's imperfect or not, it's still his own Mode. This is further disputed by the fact that he was ALREADY in SM when the Frogs appeared. Or It perfectly coincides with my logic, as he cannot use SM for which he needs a great deal of Natural Energy for, which he doesn't seem to absorb fast enough which would sit perfectly well with the Frog's comparison that Naruto can absorb is fast enough even without the oil and Jiraiya couldn't do it. So, perhaps, BOTH of us are right. How:

- I said he can enter SM but he cannot use it, as the manga scans prove along with the Databook. You said he enters afterwards. Now since the manga shows that he entered SM with the frogs, it kinda puts a wrench in this.

- You said that it isn't possible that he was absorbing NE, but I say it's 100 % correct. The blood with which he drew lines from WAS the use of the summoning contract. The summoning was already in effect. He didn't have to be rooted to the same spot - remember, he never left the spot by simply used his feet for the barrier - nor did he have to clap his hands for NE. This could only mean one thing; he was absorbing NE. Jiraiya is very slow at it, which means he absorb a bit of it, to enter SM at least till the time the Toad's came to the battle-field. So him being in that pose for that long - it makes zero sense.

- This is further cemented by the fact that the databook states that he absorbs a large amount of NE to use SM. Put two and two together and you would know what I am talking about. Also, the hands clapping is classic for NE.

I have given a nice explanation for my view. Give it a thought. Whether you accept it or not, I don't care. As I HAVE seen this databook scan. Like I keep telling you - I have read the manga as well. And frankly speaking, I am getting sick and tired of exchanging name-calling and long posts. Either draw a conclusion or end this debate. As you can see, none of us are coming down with any agreement. This is getting immature.

 

[Touken]

Good lord, is this all about whether Jiraiya can use SM passively or not?

 

[Prince Charles]

Good lord, is this all about whether Jiraiya can use SM passively or not?

I thought he could as long as ma and pa are on his shoulders? or is that not the case?

 

[Touken]

I thought he could as long as ma and pa are on his shoulders? or is that not the case?

I'm pretty sure that is the case. I don't know what these two are debating though, massive walls of text.

 

[Champ]

Sasuke and Madara low diff

 

[KidGamer65]

@Kidgamer

- Still no proof, I see? You mean how he denied it and told him about the Sage Training at the Cave? Oh really? Kindly show me the proof of this self-made Passive energy gathering. Until then, it's Bullshit of the highest order.

Proof is in the manga, the sole fact that he can gather Nature Energy while moving is proof. The fact he integrated Jugo's DNA and studied his body like he did the rest of Taka, is proof. I don't know what manga you're reading but Kabuto never denied this. Ever. You repeating the same nonsense isn't a rebuttal nor is worth replying to after this point.

- No actually, if you HAD a decent set of eyes and good common sense, then you would know how the manga doesn't repeat every process. Hashriama's first entry into SM still holds and is just as valid. Just because it doesn't sit well with your little story, doesn't make it any less acceptable.

Bold is clearly false as we've seen Naruto enter SM many times, everything was shown. They didn't skip it just because you wanted them to skip it pal. That's literally the only rebuttal you have for this point.

-He started gathering Nature Energy the moment he closed his eyes against Madara and he gathered it in the same amount of time as an Edo. Any other conclusion is wrong and you have failed to back up your point, as your only pathetic rebuttal is "They skipped it" Not even sure if serious.

- Nice school-girl insults. I already showed you scans where Jiraiya - let me put in in Caps-lock for you - 'ENTERED' in SM with the Frogs. Where is your proof otherwise? Oh I see, there is none. Forget my comprehension skills, you need a nice set of dust-free eyes, because he was never in Base-Mode when he fused with them. This is further proved by the frog's comparisons and the basic harmonization of three energies for SM - ALL present in the scans I already posted. Moving on as you still have squat on you, other than petty insults that might break a hormonal 13 year old girl's heart.

hmmm, I see nothing here that invalidates the statement that clearly states he can't use Sage Mode without the frogs. Him entering Sage Mode as soon as the frogs were summoned on to him is not equal to him entering Sage Mode on his own, with the frogs, when its been stated more than once that he can't enter it on his own.

You sure love to spin 180 degrees with your logic. At one end you state that he first summoned them and then entered into SM, when I was the one who was against this and now it's the other way around? Here is a thought, genius - his SM is imperfect, which means the balance of energies is imperfect. It means that he needs to summon them to gorge upon the energy so that he can stay in the mode.

His Sage Mode is imperfect even with the toads genius, you'd know this if you read the manga but of course, you like to make up your own fanfiction instead of following what's been shown and stated. The fact that he lacks the pigmentation around his eyes and the fact that he shows freaking animal traits even when fused with the toads is proof enough that he has an imperfect SM even with their help. The bold is nothing but fanfiction. He needs them to enter the goddamn mode to begin with. The imbalance doesn't make it so he can't use it on his own, it means that he shows animal traits, which has been stated already.

Why are you showing me the databook page? What did I say that doesn't exactly align with it? I said he cannot user SM but he can enter an imperfect SM. The data book doesn't dispute anything I have said. The point that you may bring up later on to complain about, is this:

The SM he enters with their help is an imperfect Sage Mode. He can't enter Sage Mode PERIOD without the frogs help. Manga fact and nothing you say proves that wrong. I'll gladly take Kishimoto's manga over your shitty interpretations.

This is utterly garbage as far as the Frog's comparison of Jiraiya NOT absorbing NE as effectively as Naruto goes. Whether it's imperfect or not, it's still his own Mode. This is further disputed by the fact that he was ALREADY in SM when the Frogs appeared. Or It perfectly coincides with my logic, as he cannot use SM for which he needs a great deal of Natural Energy for, which he doesn't seem to absorb fast enough which would sit perfectly well with the Frog's comparison that Naruto can absorb is fast enough even without the oil and Jiraiya couldn't do it. So, perhaps, BOTH of us are right. How:

You have literally no proof for this shit. The manga shows him entering Sage Mode when the frogs were summoned to his body, just how the Databook describes it. Stop twisting the manga in favor of your own idiotic views.

- I said he can enter SM but he cannot use it, as the manga scans prove along with the Databook. You said he enters afterwards. Now since the manga shows that he entered SM with the frogs, it kinda puts a wrench in this.

What the f*ck is the nonsense? Entering Sage Mode is the same as using Sage Mode. If he was able to enter it in the first place then he could use it as well. Manga shows him entering Sage Mode when he summoned the frogs onto himself, doesn't contradict the fact that he can't use Sage Mode by himself.

- You said that it isn't possible that he was absorbing NE, but I say it's 100 % correct. The blood with which he drew lines from WAS the use of the summoning contract. The summoning was already in effect. He didn't have to be rooted to the same spot - remember, he never left the spot by simply used his feet for the barrier - nor did he have to clap his hands for NE. This could only mean one thing; he was absorbing NE. Jiraiya is very slow at it, which means he absorb a bit of it, to enter SM at least till the time the Toad's came to the battle-field. So him being in that pose for that long - it makes zero sense.

The summoning contract has nothing to do with gathering Nature Energy.

-Him not moving from his spot doesn't change the fact he moved, and you can't move when gathering Nature Energy. Manga fact and anything else you have to say on the matter is invalid.

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He moved in these scans and you are telling me he was gathering Nature Energy...absolutely laughable.

- This is further cemented by the fact that the databook states that he absorbs a large amount of NE to use SM. Put two and two together and you would know what I am talking about. Also, the hands clapping is classic for NE.

What. The. Hell. Is this shit? Try reading that again pal.

He summons the Two Great Toad Sages from Mt. Myouboku into his body and by borrowing their power, his body absorbs a great amount of "nature energy". By kneading this with his own chakra, he gains the ability to use senjutsu

THEY are the ones who gather it and since they are fused to his body, it enters his body and it lets him enter Sage Mode. Manga shows this, Databook states it, and Fukasaku already stated it, my god. Skipping over more things to make your point valid? How pathetic.

I have given a nice explanation for my view. Give it a thought. Whether you accept it or not, I don't care. As I HAVE seen this databook scan. Like I keep telling you - I have read the manga as well. And frankly speaking, I am getting sick and tired of exchanging name-calling and long posts. Either draw a conclusion or end this debate. As you can see, none of us are coming down with any agreement. This is getting immature.

I'm done. I'm not wasting any more of time replying to you when all you did is twist what's been stated and shown multiple times with your own opinion.

-Stated you need to be still to gather Nature Energy. Comes in here with his own opinion that nobody even asked for, an opinion no one needs when the manga already says all that needs to be said.

-Says it took a whole conversation for Hashirama to gather Nature Energy despite later feats and his intent and showings clearly disagreeing.

I thought he could as long as ma and pa are on his shoulders? or is that not the case?

Exactly what I've been saying and yes its the case. He can't enter Sage Mode at all without their help.

 

[shelke]

@Kidgamer ... Dear Lord, here we go again:

- No it is not. Your BS is ASTOUNDING. Show me a scan or stop posting the same parroted nonsense. Since you have no proof, why are you pressing this in a ridiculously moronic manner?

- I wonder which manga you have been reading then:

- TBB charge times.
- Jinton.
- Shinigami summon and final absorption of souls.
- Rasangan charge.
etc etc

All of these have been clipped short though out the manga. The original initiation is still valid and not a made-up one second. Get over it.

- Jiraiya entered SM with the two frogs. Your statement would only be valid had it happened the other way around. The first thing the frogs point at are his features. Which means, he entered SM at the exact same time as he summoned them. That statement from the databook doesn't negate anything I have said.

1 - Read your own posts. Do you suffer from busted RAM? You are one who made this stupid point that he summons the frogs and THEN enters SM.

2 - The frog creates a CLEAR juxtaposition between Silence and Movement when he talks about Fusion - unless your awesome eyes missed it. Meaning, even talking is considered movement in regards to gathering energy, hence even THAT is not permissible. Naruto, Hashirama, and Kabuto have ALL negated this previously established manga logic. What argument do you have then? Still laughably same-ish. And this wouldn't be the first time the manga itself have taken liberties - Edo Jinchuriki being one of them.

3 - Why don't you go through those scans again. Is the databook all that is going for you? Hilarious, considering its credibility and the scans I pointed out which negate it.

4 - The summoning was already in affect. There is no proof that it took Jiraiya that long to simply summon the Frogs. Not only that, he was ALREADY in SM when they were summoned. Which completely nullifies what the databook states. He should have moved from Base Mode to SM, but it didn't happen that way at all. Kindly process that part properly.

5 - Skip things? Says the guy who 'creates' scanerios and passes them on as facts: Jugo's ability on Kabuto, Hashirama entering in SM faster because of more Chakra, one second nonsense. Don't act so brazen, please. It looks funny. Anyhow, ALL this still doesn't help your Hashirama logic. Whether I am right or you are - Jiraiya is simply slow at entering SM.

I'm done. I'm not wasting any more of time replying to you when all you did is twist what's been stated and shown multiple times with your own opinion.

-Stated you need to be still to gather Nature Energy. Comes in here with his own opinion that nobody even asked for, an opinion no one needs when the manga already says all that needs to be said.

-Says it took a whole conversation for Hashirama to gather Nature Energy despite later feats and his intent and showings clearly disagreeing.

You clearly are wasting my time, at least.

- No proof for the garbage Jugo logic.
- No proof for one second initiation.
- No proof for more Chakra translating into faster SM initiation.

All made-up.

As for the opinions, then you started the whole debate and 'ASKED' for my opinions. Please take that stick out of your ass. It doesn't suit you. Also, this is a public forum. Stop being so petty and stupid. This comment was uncalled for, and frankly speaking, highly idiotic.

I thought he could as long as ma and pa are on his shoulders? or is that not the case?

This is not what this debate is about. Funny, dear ol Kid is even steering it that way.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

hashirama cant seal so madara wins automatically. simply because hes immune to anything hashi does to him

Hashirama summons a few 1k Buddha Hands. You reckon Madara handle that?

immortality

lol at all the fanboys saying Madara stands a chance against Hashirama.

Hashirama wins,

scans of hashirama being able to seal up immortals

You mean the meteor that was a rock in comparison to PS let alone Shinsuusenju? I have no idea how people think Madara beats Hashirama, its absurd.

immortality and immunity to any physical attack besides fuinjutsu

 

[Gakido]

Its not like either team has to seal to win. Rendering incapable of fighting counts as a win as well.

Therfore Hashirama could just hold them down with Wood Style if he gets ahold of them, or Sasuke lights Hashirama's ashes up with Amaterasu to stop him from regenerating.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

madara has zetsus ability to pass through solid ground. its how he stabbed tsunade