[MadaraRules VS NarutoIndra] Nagato VS Hashirama Debate

[Bronze]

The rules of this matchup:

Spoiler

This is a debate between me and NarutoIndra, so people please do not ruin it.

This is the version of Nagato i am talking about>

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.
He is healthy and can use his legs but he is not an edo. And i would like to give him Gedo Mazo for that matter.

Debate will end in 4/11/2013. I am going to start first but i need to know if you're ready. Please do not:
-spam
-bash
-harass

Here is a song for enjoyment=D:
[video=youtube;DAzxYclC8Fs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAzxYclC8Fs[/video]

So please i hope everybody follows the rules and enjoys this nice debate. Good luck NarutoIndra

EDIT: i forgot to say it but i will add a poll to the thread once its finished. Any who wants to judge can vote the winner in the debate. At the current moment, i have 2 judges:

1-Nous
2-Prince Charles
3-Zexoin
4-ErenJaeger

I will now open a poll and inform the judges about it. They will read through and decide who is the winner giving reasons. NarutoIndra and me are of course cannot vote since we are the challengers.

 

[Bronze]

Nagato an extraordinarily powerful shinobi. Hyped as invincible and unbeatable by the likes of Obito, Konan and Fukasaku. A man who was even able to take down Hanzo with such ease. He is second strongest edo summoning by Kabuto and the 3rd 6 paths. His hype allows him to be able to compete with even the god of shinobi, Hashirama Senju.

Knowing Hashirama's fighting style, it is unlikely that he will start out with SM and this is proven when he faced EMS Madara and 100% kyuubi for a very long hours. So with that being said, he is going to start using SM when Nagato pushes him to his base limits.

Why Hashirama's mokuton will be useless to Nagato? because Mokuton itself is nature transformation created from the combination of suiton and doton [

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]. Hashirama's chakra will still run through his mokuton allowing him to manipulate them. Preta path will absorb the chakra infused with that wood since preta path absorbs infinite amount of chakra [

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]. This will render most of Hashirama techniques useless.

-Mokuton jikai kutan can be destroyed by the rockets of asura path that has shown comparable fire-power to that of multiple giant rasengan [

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][

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].
-Flower tree world is huge threat because of its pollen, but Nagato's bird or his flight ability will allow him to get out of range.
-Mokuton mokujin maybe a great defence but it has no fire power threat. It will be destroyed by Gedo Mazo once its summoned by using these [

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][

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]. Gedo Mazo fire power is comprabale to kyuubi's TBB that even destroyed Mokujin [

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].

I will also use the fact Nagato can summon his animals to the battlefield and the dogs will be very threatening because they will keep dividing. If Hashirama decides to throw the gates, then that means he will just stand and focus on restraining them as result, Nagato will finish him off.

If Shinsuusenju comes out, then Nagato can destroy with his largest scale of shinra tensie or chibaku tensie. Shinra tensie that was used on konoha did not have half of Nagato's chakra because Nagato is only supplying deva path with 1/6 of his chakra. If that much was even able to take down konoha then one from 6/6 Nagato will with no doubts take down the Shinsuusenju. Chibaku tensie is always depended on how much chakra is concentrated on. It was even powerful enough to trap the juubi whos size is comparable to the shinsuuenju. So if this CT from sick,old,tired Nagato was this size [

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], then one from healthy, prime and full Nagato would dwarf the Shinsuusenju making it impossible to destroy its ord due to the amount of rocks protecting it.

That is what i have. I am looking forward for your reply

 

[NarutoIndra]

Good points.

Knowing Hashirama's fighting style, it is unlikely that he will start out with SM and this is proven when he faced EMS Madara and 100% kyuubi for a very long hours. So with that being said, he is going to start using SM when Nagato pushes him to his base limits.

First things first, I would like to point out that you cannot judge a shinobi's fighting style from a single fight. Fact is, he can start off the fight with it or not, a single fight or two isn’t going to determine whether he can or cannot start off with a technique. Furthermore, I would like to add that no point in this fight will Hashirama be at his ‘limit’.

Why Hashirama's mokuton will be useless to Nagato? because Mokuton itself is nature transformation created from the combination of suiton and doton [

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]. Hashirama's chakra will still run through his mokuton allowing him to manipulate them. Preta path will absorb the chakra infused with that wood since preta path absorbs infinite amount of chakra [

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]. This will render most of Hashirama techniques useless.

I will probably not go into the theories of it being possible or not, since the datebook does claim his chakra simply grows it from a previous ‘root’ or ‘seed’. I will simply claim that Preta Path won’t be capable of repetitively absorbing senjutsu empowered Mukoton attacks, as this will end up the same way it ended up for Preta path last time [

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]. If this would occur, the match would already be finished as Nagato has not shown any feats of coping with Senjutsu.

-Mokuton jikai kutan can be destroyed by the rockets of asura path that has shown comparable fire-power to that of multiple giant rasengan [

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][

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].
-Flower tree world is huge threat because of its pollen, but Nagato's bird or his flight ability will allow him to get out of range.
-Mokuton mokujin maybe a great defence but it has no fire power threat. It will be destroyed by Gedo Mazo once its summoned by using these [

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][

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]. Gedo Mazo fire power is comprabale to kyuubi's TBB that even destroyed Mokujin [

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].

Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin (Flower tree world) does not have to be used so randomly as you state. Hashirama can use it as a combination with Bringer of Darkness or the Tori Gates incase Nagato decides to use his summons. Since bringer of Darkness is uninterceptable by nothing but a sharingan, Nagato can not escape it. Rinnegan has no feats of escaping a genjutsu, so claiming it can is a mild assumption. Since the Bringer of Darkness removes sense of vision but keeps other senses such as hearing and feeling, Nagato should realise something is occurring under him, but cannot do anything about it as the pollen knocks him unconscious [

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]. Similar scenario for the Tori Gates. Torri Gates can be dropped at a quantity of ten [

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] --> [

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]. This means that regardless of Nagato’s speed feats (he has none prime or not prime) he won’t be able to escape 10 Tori seals, or a single large one of such

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. Such combo’s would easily end Nagato as Hashirama can kill Nagato in any way he likes once Nagato is unconscious and bound. All it takes is a small sniff and you already begin to fall asleep as shown against the Gokage. [

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]

The Gedo Mazo has absolutely no chance in destroying a Tori gate. The Mokujin was capable of

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the Juubi, the Juubi=Gedo Mazo+Tailed beats which should convey the difference in sheer strength. The Mokujin completely restricted the Juubi; now unrestricting yourself is a great feat, but destroying it is on another league, which the Gedo is no where near. Gedo Mazo fire power is no where near Kyuubi’s just saying..

I will also use the fact Nagato can summon his animals to the battlefield and the dogs will be very threatening because they will keep dividing. If Hashirama decides to throw the gates, then that means he will just stand and focus on restraining them as result, Nagato will finish him off.

Summonings will barely be a factor in this fight. The headed dog can easily be countered with Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu, while all other summons can simply have a Mokujin land on them to restrict them from having any effect on the fight. The dogs will not be pressured, they will simply be surrounded by a Mukoton wall which they cannot destroy as its size dwarfed 100% Kyuubi[

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]. Moreover, if you think about it, the dogs only can split from

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(vertically) if you were to drop a gate on their back from head to torso direction (horizontally) they won’t split, since their head wouldn’t split as well.

If Shinsuusenju comes out, then Nagato can destroy with his largest scale of shinra tensie or chibaku tensie. Shinra tensie that was used on konoha did not have half of Nagato's chakra because Nagato is only supplying deva path with 1/6 of his chakra. If that much was even able to take down konoha then one from 6/6 Nagato will with no doubts take down the Shinsuusenju. Chibaku tensie is always depended on how much chakra is concentrated on. It was even powerful enough to trap the juubi whos size is comparable to the shinsuuenju. So if this CT from sick,old,tired Nagato was this size [

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], then one from healthy, prime and full Nagato would dwarf the Shinsuusenju making it impossible to destroy its ord due to the amount of rocks protecting it.

Shinra tensei? You are claiming that he will use his 'ultimate' Shinra Tensei, which from what I recall, it

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to recover from that ability than a regular Shinra Tensei. Furthemore, this ultimate Shinra Tensei still wouldn’t destroy the Shinsusenju, even if he gets the time and space to use it. Chibaku Tensei is nothing for the Shinsusenju. Shinsusenju most definitely has the power necessary to break away from the Chibaku Tensei. 8 Tailed Naruto

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from Chibaku tensei with strength alone. Notice how 8 Tailed Naruto needed to use his entire body to escape the Chibaku Tensei, and this is 50% Kurama without unleashing his 9th tail. Now, imaging the 100% Kurama with his 9th tail, using all his body and still losing a fight of strength against the Shinsusenju's hand alone. This concludes that Shinsusenju is barely affected by Chibaku Tensei, due to its size and brute strength. Moreover, the Chibaku Tensei put heavy strain on Nagato against a half sized Kyuubi. If it strained him against something this small when put

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with the Shinsusenju (8 Tails is about 66% smaller then 100% 9 tails), then he might as take some pain killers because the strain that will be on him will not only be enormous, but null and void as it won’t affect the Shinsusenju.

All this fight really takes is a Chōjō Kebutsu, Senpō: Myōjinmon+Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin, or bringer of Darkness+Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin.

 

[Nous]

Wonder where you go the idea for this thread from..

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Rejoinder of myself I guess. I must say this will be an interesting match-up. I definitely believe Hashirama can defeat Nagato and is a tier above the Rin'negan bearer, however this is a debate. Luck to both. I'm unsure if you two are new to debating or not as I haven't seen you two participate in a organized argument before. Nonetheless, this shall be interesting.

Great, thus far.

​

 

[Bronze]

Good points.

Thanks

First things first, I would like to point out that you cannot judge a shinobi's fighting style from a single fight. Fact is, he can start off the fight with it or not, a single fight or two isn’t going to determine whether he can or cannot start off with a technique. Furthermore, I would like to add that no point in this fight will Hashirama be at his ‘limit’.

Hashirama was at his base when fighting EMS Madara with kyuubi until he knew he was overwhelmed. Uchiha vs senju, and we see Hashirama always in base. So its safe to say Hashirama often fights in base. He will in his limits when fighting a rinnegan user.

I will probably not go into the theories of it being possible or not, since the datebook does claim his chakra simply grows it from a previous ‘root’ or ‘seed’. I will simply claim that Preta Path won’t be capable of repetitively absorbing senjutsu empowered Mukoton attacks, as this will end up the same way it ended up for Preta path last time [

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]. If this would occur, the match would already be finished as Nagato has not shown any feats of coping with Senjutsu.

Databook has explained that Mokuton works by creating it from the underground but it did not explain what it originated from. Again you're under the assumption that Hashirama will enter SM right away but fine lets leave it as it is. The reason why SM mokuton when absorbed wont effect Nagato is because they contain fraction of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra. The scan you showed was Nagato absorbing the full senjutsu chakra. I will also use the point that the amount of chakra from sm mokuton wont effect him because the chakra needs to be equal with Nagato's chakra and Nagato's chakra is huge. Therefore he wont turn into stone unless if he is going to absorb all of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra but he knows what will happen so he wont.

Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin (Flower tree world) does not have to be used so randomly as you state. Hashirama can use it as a combination with Bringer of Darkness or the Tori Gates incase Nagato decides to use his summons. Since bringer of Darkness is uninterceptable by nothing but a sharingan, Nagato can not escape it. Rinnegan has no feats of escaping a genjutsu, so claiming it can is a mild assumption. Since the Bringer of Darkness removes sense of vision but keeps other senses such as hearing and feeling, Nagato should realise something is occurring under him, but cannot do anything about it as the pollen knocks him unconscious [

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]. Similar scenario for the Tori Gates. Torri Gates can be dropped at a quantity of ten [

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] --> [

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]. This means that regardless of Nagato’s speed feats (he has none prime or not prime) he won’t be able to escape 10 Tori seals, or a single large one of such

You must be registered for see links

. Such combo’s would easily end Nagato as Hashirama can kill Nagato in any way he likes once Nagato is unconscious and bound. All it takes is a small sniff and you already begin to fall asleep as shown against the Gokage. [

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]

The Gedo Mazo has absolutely no chance in destroying a Tori gate. The Mokujin was capable of

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the Juubi, the Juubi=Gedo Mazo+Tailed beats which should convey the difference in sheer strength. The Mokujin completely restricted the Juubi; now unrestricting yourself is a great feat, but destroying it is on another league, which the Gedo is no where near. Gedo Mazo fire power is no where near Kyuubi’s just saying..

You're going to need to show panels where Hashirama is able to use those listed techniques at the same time because he wont be able to and the reason is:

1-Flower tree world hand seals > [

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]
2-Bringer of darkness hand seals > [

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]
3-Torri gates hand seals > [

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]

Hashirama doesn't have 6 arms to use combination of those. Unless scans suggest he can use those listed at the same time, then post them if not then it will be fanfiction.

Also regarding the bringer of darkness, it wont pose trouble because Nagato is sensor ninja who was able to sense the build up of amatersu before performed, sensed Kabuto's chakra who hid himself in barrier, and capable of sensing the chakra of all people of amagakure. If Hiruzen was able to track Hashirama using his nose, then there is no doubt an accomplished powerful sensor like Nagato can find Hashirama even in the darkness especially with his rain technique activated. Also rinnegan not being able to see through genjutsu is proven false because rinnegan is evolution for sharingan and all dojutsu have the ability to see chakra. AO used his byakugan to see KA activation so Rinnegan should be able to see through the bringer of darkness.

I would like to also need scans of Hashirama moving around when the gates are dropped. Going by the when using them, Hashirama was only standing in the same position not being able to move when gates are dropped, so if that happens then he is an easy target for Nagato, if not then i need scans. Flower tree world is useless because Nagato can sense before its used and he can fly out of range. That way he wont sniff anything. Torri wont stop Nagato from moving its range since he was fast enough to speedblitz Bee and he can open rockets from his feet increasing his speed > [

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].

Bold is incorrect. That wasn't mokujin work. We have seen 100% Kyuubi TBB destroying the mokujin, and i showed scan where GM has shown comparable attack to it.

Summonings will barely be a factor in this fight. The headed dog can easily be countered with Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu, while all other summons can simply have a Mokujin land on them to restrict them from having any effect on the fight. The dogs will not be pressured, they will simply be surrounded by a Mukoton wall which they cannot destroy as its size dwarfed 100% Kyuubi[

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]. Moreover, if you think about it, the dogs only can split from

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(vertically) if you were to drop a gate on their back from head to torso direction (horizontally) they won’t split, since their head wouldn’t split as well.

Nagato's summoning are very useful in this fight and mainly the dogs. Hotei no jutsu may be useful but Nagato can repel them with shinra tensie like this one [

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]. We have seen Gamabunta(whos weight pinned down 100% kyuubi)

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, and results ended with

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. Also like i said, Hashirama wont be able to move around while using horii gates.

Shinra tensei? You are claiming that he will use his 'ultimate' Shinra Tensei, which from what I recall, it

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to recover from that ability than a regular Shinra Tensei. Furthemore, this ultimate Shinra Tensei still wouldn’t destroy the Shinsusenju, even if he gets the time and space to use it. Chibaku Tensei is nothing for the Shinsusenju. Shinsusenju most definitely has the power necessary to break away from the Chibaku Tensei. 8 Tailed Naruto

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from Chibaku tensei with strength alone. Notice how 8 Tailed Naruto needed to use his entire body to escape the Chibaku Tensei, and this is 50% Kurama without unleashing his 9th tail. Now, imaging the 100% Kurama with his 9th tail, using all his body and still losing a fight of strength against the Shinsusenju's hand alone. This concludes that Shinsusenju is barely affected by Chibaku Tensei, due to its size and brute strength. Moreover, the Chibaku Tensei put heavy strain on Nagato against a half sized Kyuubi. If it strained him against something this small when put

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with the Shinsusenju (8 Tails is about 66% smaller then 100% 9 tails), then he might as take some pain killers because the strain that will be on him will not only be enormous, but null and void as it won’t affect the Shinsusenju.

All this fight really takes is a Chōjō Kebutsu, Senpō: Myōjinmon+Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin, or bringer of Darkness+Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin.

Using feats from Pain fight is a huge mistake from you. We already know that when 6 path techniques used through Nagato become a lot stronger:

Spoiler

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Despite that CT was used from tired, old, skinny, chakra exhausted Nagato,

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. Deva path only has 1/6 out of Nagato's chakra, so that means he isn't using even half of Nagato's power. CT in pain invasion was comparable to Shinsuusenju in size:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Healthy Nagato's CT can take out the Shinsuusenju because the statue will be pulled apart since the gravitation will get stronger depending on how close it is to the orb.

 

[KingHashirama]

Mokuton itself is not chakra. Mokuton is grown by Hashirama's chakra.. so at best what Nagato can do is take out the chakra leaving the mokuton in tact. However, that itself provides Hashirama with many chances to take out Nagato.


As Madara said, "Why should a adult take a kid serious?"

 

[NarutoIndra]

Databook has explained that Mokoton works by creating it from the underground but it did not explain what it originated from. Again you're under the assumption that Hashirama will enter SM right away but fine lets leave it as it is. The reason why SM mokuton when absorbed wont effect Nagato is because they contain fraction of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra. The scan you showed was Nagato absorbing the full senjutsu chakra. I will also use the point that the amount of chakra from sm mokuton wont effect him because the chakra needs to be equal with Nagato's chakra and Nagato's chakra is huge. Therefore he wont turn into stone unless if he is going to absorb all of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra but he knows what will happen so he wont.

Base or SM in the beginning of a fight isn't as notable as you're making it seem. It does not need to be equal, it needs to be half the chakra. You can clearly see it in depiction of

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chakra --> to depiction of Physical, Spiritual,

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. It does not equal both, but only 1/3 which is added with the 2/3 of the other two. It has to be perfectly balanced in order to maintain it within the body. This means Nagato will not need to intake all of his own chakra in Senjutsu, but rather intake 1/3rd of his chakra in Senjutsu in order for him to turn to stone. Moreover, this fraction of Senjutsu will be constantly adding up throughout the fight, and as the fight goes on, Nagato's chakra will decrease. Meaning once the fight is quite late, it will nearly be unavoidable for Nagato to turn to stone as not only will his chakra levels be low, but he would have absorbed a tonne of Senjutsu chakra.

You're going to need to show panels where Hashirama is able to use those listed techniques at the same time because he wont be able to and the reason is:

1-Flower tree world hand seals > [

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]
2-Bringer of darkness hand seals > [

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]
3-Torri gates hand seals > [

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]

Hashirama doesn't have 6 arms to use combination of those. Unless scans suggest he can use those listed at the same time, then post them if not then it will be fanfiction.

It's called Moku Bunshin no Jutsu, Hashirama does not have to be the one who stands there weaving signs to bind his opponent when he can't take advantage of it. This technically negates all your points so I don't really have to go into greater detail. Despite this, I would still like to add that Rinnegan has not shown feats of seeing through clones like

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, and the Mukoton clone is even

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. Clearly they couldn't tell it was a clone, as they all simultaneously attacked it and were surprised when they found out it was a clone as you can see in their gestures.

Also regarding the bringer of darkness, it wont pose trouble because Nagato is sensor ninja who was able to sense the build up of amatersu before performed, sensed Kabuto's chakra who hid himself in barrier, and capable of sensing the chakra of all people of amagakure. If Hiruzen was able to track Hashirama using his nose, then there is no doubt an accomplished powerful sensor like Nagato can find Hashirama even in the darkness especially with his rain technique activated. Also rinnegan not being able to see through genjutsu is proven false because rinnegan is evolution for sharingan and all dojutsu have the ability to see chakra. AO used his byakugan to see KA activation so Rinnegan should be able to see through the bringer of darkness.

Yes, Nagato is a great sensor. I didn't claim he won't be able to find him, I simply stated he can't sense pollen before it is present, and if he were to sense it, he would long be on the floor unconscious. I know he will be capable of realising that Mukoton is coming from underground and the location in which Hashirama is. However, I am doubtful he will take the offensive in such a situation, since even with sensory skills; it is better to act upon you eye sight than your sensing abilities; hence why he does't fight with his eyes closed. Bold is speculation to satisfy your own character. This is completely untrue, as no Rinnegan user has shown to have such feats, nor have they shown to predict the opponents movements. It is no where stated in the manga that the Rinnegan is the evolved form of the EMS. If it were, Madara would not be capable of changing from one eye to the other, but merely have a single dojutsu. Furthermore, the Rinnegan would have the capability of using the Amateratsu, Susano, etc. since you claim the evolved form keeps the traits of the previous generations in addition to its own.

I would like to also need scans of Hashirama moving around when the gates are dropped. Going by the when using them, Hashirama was only standing in the same position not being able to move when gates are dropped, so if that happens then he is an easy target for Nagato, if not then i need scans. Flower tree world is useless because Nagato can sense before its used and he can fly out of range. That way he wont sniff anything. Torri wont stop Nagato from moving its range since he was fast enough to speedblitz Bee and he can open rockets from his feet increasing his speed > [

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].

Bold is incorrect. That wasn't mokujin work. We have seen 100% Kyuubi TBB destroying the mokujin, and i showed scan where GM has shown comparable attack to it.

I assume I do not need scans for showing this anymore, as I have already Moku Bunshin no Jutsu can take care of the hand signs. Using his speed won't allow him to leave an area of 10 Senpō: Myōjinmon's. It is simply not possible with the speed feats he has shown and you have demonstrated. His speed feat with rockets at his feat isn't something to call home about. [

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] You can see the distance between them, and SM Naruto was still capable of jumping over him and smashing him into the floor [

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]. This sort of speed isn't enough to escape something of this size coming down with high speed [

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].

Lol? Bold is most definitely correct. Look at the Tori Gates on each and every tail [

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]. Now look at the Juubi's head get

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and a few panels later, you can see the Jubi is

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. Show me scans of the GM using the strongest offensive ability in the manga, the TBB. Showing me a scan of an attack that compares with the Kyuubi is not in my interests. I would, however, be interested in knowing how this attack would be used when the Gate is falling from over the GM to bind him to the ground. He cannot use abilities to their fullest extent while being bound to the ground by large gates. You made it seem as if the Gates will fall in front of the GM instead of onto him.

Nagato's summoning are very useful in this fight and mainly the dogs. Hotei no jutsu may be useful but Nagato can repel them with shinra tensie like this one [

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]. We have seen Gamabunta(whos weight pinned down 100% kyuubi)

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, and results ended with

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. Also like i said, Hashirama wont be able to move around while using horii gates.

Nagato isn't going to be blasting Shinra Tensei's like the one you posted the entire time. It poses a large threat if he keeps blowing away moves of this magnitude he's going to remove a large amount of his large supply of chakra. It would be a bad idea to use moves of this caliber for such small reason behind it. And I already claimed, if you get it from Head to torso horizontally were the gate separates the head and the legs, the Dog cannot split. It isn't possible to pull a head out of it's ass, nor has it been shown to be capable of doing this. Whenever it is shown to split it is due to pressure or piercing, and always shown to do it from leg to leg, arm to arm, ear to ear.

Using feats from Pain fight is a huge mistake from you. We already know that when 6 path techniques used through Nagato become a lot stronger:

Spoiler

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Despite that CT was used from tired, old, skinny, chakra exhausted Nagato,

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. Deva path only has 1/6 out of Nagato's chakra, so that means he isn't using even half of Nagato's power. CT in pain invasion was comparable to Shinsuusenju in size:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Bold is not supported by manga. One can increase and decrease the amount of chakra they emit to the chakra receivers. When Deva path did his Chibaku Tensei, he had to move closer to Nagato, most likely since he needed Nagato to emit more chakra to Deva instead of the others. The same is for when he used his ultimate Shinra Tensei, it took

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to recover for the others, probably due to the chakra they are receiving being decreased. Moreover, no where is it stated they all receive an equal amount of chakra, it may be true that each time one uses an ability the others receive some chakra while the ability user receives most. No certain number can be made of Nagato's chakra that was used in his Chibaku Tensei on the 8 tailed Kurama. Although even an amplified Chibaku would lose to a Shinsusenju pounding its core and whatever else it is attracting towards it. Do not forget that Shinsusenju destroyed a PS, which most definitely has more resilience then a Chibaku Tensei. Size isn't usually all that matters, but even in this situation the Shinsusenju is the same size if not bigger.

Healthy Nagato's CT can take out the Shinsuusenju because the statue will be pulled apart since the gravitation will get stronger depending on how close it is to the orb.

Base or SM in the beginning of a fight isn't as notable as you're making it seem.

Something of similar size to the Chibaku tensei is not going to be destroyed, when the Chibaku Tensei couldn't even destroy the Kyuubi who was completely caught up in it and dwarfed. Healthy Nagato has no feats so there is really no reason you being it up apart from the fact he won't cough in the match and he can use the Gedo Mazo.

 

[Bronze]

Base or SM in the beginning of a fight isn't as notable as you're making it seem. It does not need to be equal, it needs to be half the chakra. You can clearly see it in depiction of

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chakra --> to depiction of Physical, Spiritual,

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. It does not equal both, but only 1/3 which is added with the 2/3 of the other two. It has to be perfectly balanced in order to maintain it within the body. This means Nagato will not need to intake all of his own chakra in Senjutsu, but rather intake 1/3rd of his chakra in Senjutsu in order for him to turn to stone. Moreover, this fraction of Senjutsu will be constantly adding up throughout the fight, and as the fight goes on, Nagato's chakra will decrease. Meaning once the fight is quite late, it will nearly be unavoidable for Nagato to turn to stone as not only will his chakra levels be low, but he would have absorbed a tonne of Senjutsu chakra.

The amount of senjutsu chakra from hashirama mokuton will not even be enough to reach 15% of Nagato's chakra. Not even close. We already know Nagato's chakra is either equal to SM Hashirama or larger going by feats. Hashirama is only adding fraction of his senjutsu chakra to his techniques. Nagato absorbing that senjutsu chakra can be wasted by using other jutsu. Also adding that Hashirama is the one who will run out of chakra before Nagato because of he is wasting chakra on large scale jutsu. Not mention that Hashi cant stay in SM for infinite amount of time as shown the time span is here [

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] > [

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].

Nagato will not be effected at all.

It's called Moku Bunshin no Jutsu, Hashirama does not have to be the one who stands there weaving signs to bind his opponent when he can't take advantage of it. This technically negates all your points so I don't really have to go into greater detail. Despite this, I would still like to add that Rinnegan has not shown feats of seeing through clones like

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, and the Mukoton clone is even

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. Clearly they couldn't tell it was a clone, as they all simultaneously attacked it and were surprised when they found out it was a clone as you can see in their gestures.

Mokuton bunshin can be taken care of either shinra tensie [

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] or rockets of asura path [

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]. Hashirama's mokuton bunshin durability is not that impressive in which you can see in these scans:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Spoiler

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They can be finished before doing a hand seal. Rinnegan can actually see through Taju Kage bunshin [

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]. That type of bunshin has fooled even byakugan.

Yes, Nagato is a great sensor. I didn't claim he won't be able to find him, I simply stated he can't sense pollen before it is present, and if he were to sense it, he would long be on the floor unconscious. I know he will be capable of realising that Mukoton is coming from underground and the location in which Hashirama is. However, I am doubtful he will take the offensive in such a situation, since even with sensory skills; it is better to act upon you eye sight than your sensing abilities; hence why he does't fight with his eyes closed. Bold is speculation to satisfy your own character. This is completely untrue, as no Rinnegan user has shown to have such feats, nor have they shown to predict the opponents movements. It is no where stated in the manga that the Rinnegan is the evolved form of the EMS. If it were, Madara would not be capable of changing from one eye to the other, but merely have a single dojutsu. Furthermore, the Rinnegan would have the capability of using the Amateratsu, Susano, etc. since you claim the evolved form keeps the traits of the previous generations in addition to its own.

You're acting as if the pollen is a KO jutsu. Gokage were capable of reacting, getting out of the range of pollen and see it clearly > [

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] [

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]. Nagato not only has the rain jutsu that allows him to sense the landscape itself, but he also has his summoning bird that can share vision with him. He can sense the chakra build up of the FTW, and can fly using deva path, with his bird he can see the pollen just fine. Rinnegan is evolution of EMS [

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]. This is proven when Madara infused himself with senju DNA, his EMS evolved to rinnegan. So rinnegan has the ability to see through genjutsu but not using MS techniques.

I assume I do not need scans for showing this anymore, as I have already Moku Bunshin no Jutsu can take care of the hand signs. Using his speed won't allow him to leave an area of 10 Senpō: Myōjinmon's. It is simply not possible with the speed feats he has shown and you have demonstrated. His speed feat with rockets at his feat isn't something to call home about. [

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] You can see the distance between them, and SM Naruto was still capable of jumping over him and smashing him into the floor [

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]. This sort of speed isn't enough to escape something of this size coming down with high speed [

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].

Lol? Bold is most definitely correct. Look at the Tori Gates on each and every tail [

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]. Now look at the Juubi's head get

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and a few panels later, you can see the Jubi is

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. Show me scans of the GM using the strongest offensive ability in the manga, the TBB. Showing me a scan of an attack that compares with the Kyuubi is not in my interests. I would, however, be interested in knowing how this attack would be used when the Gate is falling from over the GM to bind him to the ground. He cannot use abilities to their fullest extent while being bound to the ground by large gates. You made it seem as if the Gates will fall in front of the GM instead of onto him.

Mokuton bunshin can be taken care of like i have showed above^. Torii gates are not as fast as you claim. You can see them falling in the right bottom panel [

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]. Giving a thought of Nagato's speed:

-speedblitz killer bee
-can increase his speed by opening rockets

then it should be fine avoiding the gates. Not to mention his sensory powers that even sensed amatersu (faster than torii gates).

Already proved that if torii performed by bunshin, its taken care of by rockets or shinra tensie. If Hashirama then he is an easy target for Nagato. Gedo Mazo strongest attacks are:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Nagato isn't going to be blasting Shinra Tensei's like the one you posted the entire time. It poses a large threat if he keeps blowing away moves of this magnitude he's going to remove a large amount of his large supply of chakra. It would be a bad idea to use moves of this caliber for such small reason behind it. And I already claimed, if you get it from Head to torso horizontally were the gate separates the head and the legs, the Dog cannot split. It isn't possible to pull a head out of it's ass, nor has it been shown to be capable of doing this. Whenever it is shown to split it is due to pressure or piercing, and always shown to do it from leg to leg, arm to arm, ear to ear.

And Hashirama isn't using hotei no jutsu every time. He is only performing them depending on the situation it needs. I have already posted a scan where Gamabunta was sitting on their necks and yet they divided and you're assuming that they wont despite manga is proving me right.

Bold is not supported by manga. One can increase and decrease the amount of chakra they emit to the chakra receivers. When Deva path did his Chibaku Tensei, he had to move closer to Nagato, most likely since he needed Nagato to emit more chakra to Deva instead of the others. The same is for when he used his ultimate Shinra Tensei, it took

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to recover for the others, probably due to the chakra they are receiving being decreased. Moreover, no where is it stated they all receive an equal amount of chakra, it may be true that each time one uses an ability the others receive some chakra while the ability user receives most. No certain number can be made of Nagato's chakra that was used in his Chibaku Tensei on the 8 tailed Kurama. Although even an amplified Chibaku would lose to a Shinsusenju pounding its core and whatever else it is attracting towards it. Do not forget that Shinsusenju destroyed a PS, which most definitely has more resilience then a Chibaku Tensei. Size isn't usually all that matters, but even in this situation the Shinsusenju is the same size if not bigger.

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You can see that each black rod has the same amount of chakra transmitted from Nagato to his paths. It doesn't need to be stated by manga. Its common sense if you look at the matter properly. Nagato's chakra is only transmitted to 6 bodies, that means each body is receiving 1/6 of Nagato's full chakra, but like you said, Nagato can transmit more if needed. Nagato was fighting konoha, destroyed it, fought SM naruto + toads, and 6 tail kyuubi. You can even see deathbed Nagato was dying when he performed it:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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That just makes my point that when techniques are performed by paths are weaker than Nagato' own performance because the chakra they are receiving is not used at its full strength.

Base or SM in the beginning of a fight isn't as notable as you're making it seem.

Something of similar size to the Chibaku tensei is not going to be destroyed, when the Chibaku Tensei couldn't even destroy the Kyuubi who was completely caught up in it and dwarfed. Healthy Nagato has no feats so there is really no reason you being it up apart from the fact he won't cough in the match and he can use the Gedo Mazo.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Stop overrating Hashirama.

Again stop using feats from pain and equal them to Nagato's. I have showed a scan where it states Nagato's performance of 6 path is much stronger than Pain. If you're going to bring up the same point over, then this debate is pointless.

I will also add Hashirama will have huge trouble with the dragons that will tail him until they rip his soul.

 

[Bronze]

Mokuton itself is not chakra. Mokuton is grown by Hashirama's chakra.. so at best what Nagato can do is take out the chakra leaving the mokuton in tact. However, that itself provides Hashirama with many chances to take out Nagato.


As Madara said, "Why should a adult take a kid serious?"

How is Nagato absorbing chakra from mokuton is going to put him in trouble against Hashirama?

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Wonder where you go the idea for this thread from..

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Rejoinder of myself I guess. I must say this will be an interesting match-up. I definitely believe Hashirama can defeat Nagato and is a tier above the Rin'negan bearer, however this is a debate. Luck to both. I'm unsure if you two are new to debating or not as I haven't seen you two participate in a organized argument before. Nonetheless, this shall be interesting.

Great, thus far.

​

Of course; you were thé first to suggest such a matchup, weren't you?

 

[Bronze]

Madara Rules You are such a fool to believe that nagato, a person who couldn't even stop 50% kurama can defeat a person who stomped on 100% kurama with a PS susanoo cloack and a barrage of tbb/PS susanoo sword attacks.

Very sad indeed.

Read through everything before commenting a defeated point.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Before I make my post, please put some judge slots as this is all pointless without proper judges. I don't want random people voting on a poll since there's a chance they are trolling or no nothing of Naruto (could go either way).

 

[NarutoIndra]

The amount of senjutsu chakra from hashirama mokuton will not even be enough to reach 15% of Nagato's chakra. Not even close. We already know Nagato's chakra is either equal to SM Hashirama or larger going by feats. Hashirama is only adding fraction of his senjutsu chakra to his techniques. Nagato absorbing that senjutsu chakra can be wasted by using other jutsu. Also adding that Hashirama is the one who will run out of chakra before Nagato because of he is wasting chakra on large scale jutsu. Not mention that Hashi cant stay in SM for infinite amount of time as shown the time span is here [

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] > [

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].

Nagato will not be effected at all.

That is a false assumption. Nagato does not know how to dispel senjutsu. Where is it stated that the Senjutsu chakra can be dispelled when outside of SM? Nagato's chakra is doubtedly equal to Hashirma's chakra. Even Madara praises Hashirama for enormous chakra reserves. You have to realise Hashirama is constantly releasing high chakra consuming abilities, as Nagato doesn't have to do this. Nagato's high chakra consumption comes from powerful Shinra Tensei's and CT, which he can't spam like Hashirama spams Mukoton. 24 hours of constant Mukoton release is a feat in the manga (fought with Madara for an entire day.) Hashirama didn't even run out of chakra after fighting EMS Madara for an entire 24 hours, who also had the Kyuubi alongside him. Unless you are claiming Nagato can battle for Hashirama for 24 hours straight, you have no reason to claim Nagato's chakra level are even in the same league as Hashirama. The link you posted does not help prove your point. He was on the Shinju, assuming you read what Madara said, you should know why his SM ran out. He clearly stated that the Shinju was taking chakra back, meaning absorbing chakra. Hashirama can always use SM again, so running out of SM isn't really an issue unless your Jiraiya.

Mokuton bunshin can be taken care of either shinra tensie [

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] or rockets of asura path [

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]. Hashirama's mokuton bunshin durability is not that impressive in which you can see in these scans:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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Spoiler

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They can be finished before doing a hand seal. Rinnegan can actually see through Taju Kage bunshin [

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]. That type of bunshin has fooled even byakugan.

This is quite amusing. Say Hashirama were to make four Mukoton clones, and three were to weave hand signs for Mokujin while one weaved signs for a single

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in-between them, what would happen then? The Mukoton clones are protected while Nagato is pinned down on the floor. All Hashirama has to do is use is Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan and Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin to absolutely guarantee that Nagato cannot escape. Being bound by a Tori Gate, Mukoton, and pollen that makes you unconscious. You claim that Moku Bunshin no Jutsu has little vitality, but that is not true. Your examples are almost the same as saying Full Susano has no vitality because a TBB would destroy it. Putting a Susano sword example and a Juubito example don't help prove anything. An actual shin obi would die from both of these examples, so what would differ in the case of a Moku Bunshin no Jutsu? Nothing is the answer. Although if they were truly weaker than other clones, Madara wouldn't use them, would he? Your logic is flawed when discussing these points. Madara stated he himself was the only one who could see through the Mukoton Bunshin's with the use of a dojutsu technique, implying other Uchiha's wouldn't be capable of telling the difference [

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]. This doesn't mean that it has something to with the sharing an, it is an actual technique that deciphers them from the real one.

Taju Kage Bunshins=/=Moku Bunshin no Jutsu. If a Raiton Bunshin from Kakashi were capable of fooling the Rinnegan, than by obvious reason, a Moku Bunshin should fool the Rinnegan, unless of course, you can evidently prove that there is a difference between the Raiton Bunshin and the Mukoton Bunshin.

You're acting as if the pollen is a KO jutsu. Gokage were capable of reacting, getting out of the range of pollen and see it clearly > [

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] [

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]. Nagato not only has the rain jutsu that allows him to sense the landscape itself, but he also has his summoning bird that can share vision with him. He can sense the chakra build up of the FTW, and can fly using deva path, with his bird he can see the pollen just fine. Rinnegan is evolution of EMS [

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]. This is proven when Madara infused himself with senju DNA, his EMS evolved to rinnegan. So rinnegan has the ability to see through genjutsu but not using MS techniques.

This is all speculation. Pollen is a KO jutsu once you're under it. Nagato's rain jutsu doesn't have enough feats to be used in a battle, otherwise I could say Hashirama doesn't die due to his Medical Ninjutsu that surpass Sōzō Saisei. Rain jutsu has not shown the amount of hand seals required to use it, if it takes any chakra, how it is used, prep time if any, etc. thus can't be used in a debate as you could simply make it favourable towards your arguments since you can 'fill' the missing gaps. The summoning bird won't share vision with him. Genjutsu manipulates the mind, not the eyes. Bringer of Darkness removes the sense of sight, so him summoning external sources to help him see when his vision is impaired by Genjutsu isn't helping. Genjutsu controls the senses, it does not simply make your eyes not see or your nose not smell, the entire sense is gone, hence why summonings won't affect it. He can't sense chakra build up, where did you get this? He could sense the

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in Itachi's eye while using Amateratsu, since MS users have lots of pressure in their eyes build up which is why they bleed. He hasn't shown to be capable of sensing chakra build up anywhere in the manga, unless of course you can provide non-existent scans. Yes he can fly, but for what reason will he fly if he doesn't know where he is? Torri gate prevents him from flying even if he attempts to fly. Stop overrating his sensory skills.
Once again, his EMS didn't evolve to the rinnegan, otherwise he would't have his EMS anymore. Evolving is the gradual change of something, not the manifestation of a new ability. Your logic is flawed again. Once you show me scans of the Rinnegan seeing through genjutsu, it's a feat, before that it's simply uncalled for hype. Did you not read what I said last time about them being different? and that if this were true than the Rinnegan should also have Amateratsu since it 'evolved'?

Mokuton bunshin can be taken care of like i have showed above^. Torii gates are not as fast as you claim. You can see them falling in the right bottom panel [

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]. Giving a thought of Nagato's speed:

-speedblitz killer bee
-can increase his speed by opening rockets

then it should be fine avoiding the gates. Not to mention his sensory powers that even sensed amatersu (faster than torii gates).

Already proved that if torii performed by bunshin, its taken care of by rockets or shinra tensie. If Hashirama then he is an easy target for Nagato. Gedo Mazo strongest attacks are:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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And Hashirama isn't using hotei no jutsu every time. He is only performing them depending on the situation it needs. I have already posted a scan where Gamabunta was sitting on their necks and yet they divided and you're assuming that they wont despite manga is proving me right.

I don't see how the panel adds up to it being slow? Juubito is the fastest character in the manga and didn't even react to it. This is also a single Tori Gate, now

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and there's absolutely no chance he can escape. Look at this scan [

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] can you see the size of the gate compared to Manda? 10 of these forming a square to equal the same length and width is simply a huge size. Despite this, you back up your claim saying that Bee got blitzed and he can use rockets under his feet. Both of these aren't notable feats. The rockets under feet were reacted to and countered by Naruto who was in SM [

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]. Saying this ability is increased when Nagato uses it without the Pains is not considered a feat, but rather hype, so it is pointless to add in a debate. while blitzing B does't seem special to me as he isn't praised for having quick reaction, nor is he praised for having a sharing an that allows him to perceive movements clearer. Your speed feats aren't enough to escape ten Tori Gates, stop coming up with excuses like rockets under feet because they aren't as fast as they seem to be. Counter my argument on how anyone could escape such a large distance in a quick time and ill commend you. Before that, don't say rockets under his feet can do the trick, because they logically can't.

I demonstrated he can't sense chakra melding, and can only sense pressure according to feats, so your point is null and void. I already have claimed that he can summon a Rashumon or use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu to give himself a good defines. If he were to use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, than Nagato has absolutely no Jutsu that can defeat it apart from CT or an 'ultimate' ST, both of which cannot be done in a state where you are bound by a Tori Gate.

Ok.. Nice to know his strongest attack, but can you put them in an argument? Nevermind, Gedo Mazo gets bound the second he's summoned by a Tori Gate. It

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the Juubi as I mentioned in my previous post, and it hasn't changed since then. You're not reading my point correctly. I stated heavy pressure would split them as they always do. Once they are bound by a Torri Gate they can multiply and split all they want, they will still be bound by the Tori Gate as they only split horizontally. Unless you can show a scan of them splitting from torso to to and torso to head, than they can't do it, unless you believe he can pull heads out of thighs.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110625173827/naruto/images/thumb/4/42/Nagato_Chakra.jpg/180px-Nagato_Chakra.jpg[/IMG]

You can see that each black rod has the same amount of chakra transmitted from Nagato to his paths. It doesn't need to be stated by manga. Its common sense if you look at the matter properly. Nagato's chakra is only transmitted to 6 bodies, that means each body is receiving 1/6 of Nagato's full chakra, but like you said, Nagato can transmit more if needed. Nagato was fighting konoha, destroyed it, fought SM naruto + toads, and 6 tail kyuubi. You can even see deathbed Nagato was dying when he performed it:

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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That just makes my point that when techniques are performed by paths are weaker than Nagato' own performance because the chakra they are receiving is not used at its full strength.

Okay, Ill agree with you on that (even though you never agree to my points even when they are clearer than persil). However, when he used CT he added a lot more chakra to Deva Path than the rest, hence why he had to come much closer to him and put immense stress on Nagato. I will say CT can be made 2 times bigger at most though and this is me being generous. Your point of Paths=/=Nagato is proven, but your point of CT with Healthy Nagato=6 times the size of the one used on 8 tailed Kurama and your point of CT used by healthy Nagato can defeat the Shinsusenju have not been proven. You have yet to tell me how these two are true, especially the Shinsusenju part. Shisusenju plays around with Healthy Nagato's CT while babysitting Nagato. It's strength as I have stated before is many times equal to that of the Kyuubi's. The 8 tailed Kyuubi broke out of a 1/3-1/2 actual sized CT [

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]. A 100% 9 Tail should be capable of breaking out of a double sized or even triple sized CT. Let me look back quickly at how the Shinsusenju's hand compares to 100% Kyuubi in strength...[

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]. Clearly no chance in a battle of strength, and the 8 tailed 50% Kyuubi overpowered a 1/3-1/2 CT when the Shinsusenju is at least 50 times stronger than the 100% Kyuubi.

Stop overrating Hashirama.

Again stop using feats from pain and equal them to Nagato's. I have showed a scan where it states Nagato's performance of 6 path is much stronger than Pain. If you're going to bring up the same point over, then this debate is pointless.

I will also add Hashirama will have huge trouble with the dragons that will tail him until they rip his soul.

Telling me to stop bringing the same points back up again.. the irony. Unfortunately most of Nagato's feats are from the Pain's so I can only judge them from what I saw their as that is a feat. Multiplying its strength by a certain number to achieve an assumed potential is considered hype, and isn't tolerated in debates. Dragon soul is overrated. It can easily kill fodder, but skilled ninja like Hashirama would not die to such a jutsu. Hanzou was capable of using Shunshin to escape [

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]. Hashirama should be able to do the same thing, and after running away for about 1 minute, the match would be over; Hashirama victorious. You could clearly see it wasn't long until Nagato had to stop the jutsu due to the situation it had put him [

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]. This is really not the ability you want to rely on, since it is made to make you lose at these levels.

 

[Bronze]

That is a false assumption. Nagato does not know how to dispel senjutsu. Where is it stated that the Senjutsu chakra can be dispelled when outside of SM? Nagato's chakra is doubtedly equal to Hashirma's chakra. Even Madara praises Hashirama for enormous chakra reserves. You have to realise Hashirama is constantly releasing high chakra consuming abilities, as Nagato doesn't have to do this. Nagato's high chakra consumption comes from powerful Shinra Tensei's and CT, which he can't spam like Hashirama spams Mukoton. 24 hours of constant Mukoton release is a feat in the manga (fought with Madara for an entire day.) Hashirama didn't even run out of chakra after fighting EMS Madara for an entire 24 hours, who also had the Kyuubi alongside him. Unless you are claiming Nagato can battle for Hashirama for 24 hours straight, you have no reason to claim Nagato's chakra level are even in the same league as Hashirama. The link you posted does not help prove your point. He was on the Shinju, assuming you read what Madara said, you should know why his SM ran out. He clearly stated that the Shinju was taking chakra back, meaning absorbing chakra. Hashirama can always use SM again, so running out of SM isn't really an issue unless your Jiraiya.

Where did i say Nagato can dispel Senjutsu? a quote please. I said that the senjutsu chakra that gets absorbed can be wasted by Nagato using on techniques. Databook stated that preta path is a sealing jutsu [

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]. It says the chakra that is sucked disperse around and it becomes part of the user's own chakra. The only reason preta path turned into a statue is because the senjutsu chakra that became part of Nagato's own chakra has dwarfed his spiritual and physical energy. That wont be the case when Nagato absorbs senjutsu from mokuton techniques since they are fraction of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and they can be wasted by Nagato wasting on jutsu. Oh really so this is Hashirama wasting chakra for 24 hours, well allow me to show a this scan [

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]. Nagato is constantly transmitting chakra to the deva path for 3 days.

Nagato's chakra feats:

-control 6 bodies constantly
-uses powerful jutsu through his paths
-he cannot possibly rest
-fought konoha ninjas
-used a large scale shinra tensie
-fought SM Naruto + toads
-fought against 6 tail kyuubi
-created CT that completely dwarfed the kyuubi
-outlasted Naruto's chakra
-revived all of konoha
-also wasting chakra activating rinnegan

These are feats from sick, skinny, old deathbed Nagato who doesn't rest and keeps wasting large amount of chakra every sec through his paths. That means his chakra is nothing compared to his prime since we know chakra is decreased by age. Nagato was about 40-45 aprox when performing these feats. Not to mention Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan because Nagato was the only with the chakra levels that can use them. So no Nagato's chakra levels are on par with Hashirama or large and i proved it. Lol what? Shinju branch didn't even touch Hashirama. All he was doing was dodging them. Hashirama's senjutsu chakra ran out at that time.

This is quite amusing. Say Hashirama were to make four Mukoton clones, and three were to weave hand signs for Mokujin while one weaved signs for a single

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in-between them, what would happen then? The Mukoton clones are protected while Nagato is pinned down on the floor. All Hashirama has to do is use is Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Kōtan and Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin to absolutely guarantee that Nagato cannot escape. Being bound by a Tori Gate, Mukoton, and pollen that makes you unconscious. You claim that Moku Bunshin no Jutsu has little vitality, but that is not true. Your examples are almost the same as saying Full Susano has no vitality because a TBB would destroy it. Putting a Susano sword example and a Juubito example don't help prove anything. An actual shin obi would die from both of these examples, so what would differ in the case of a Moku Bunshin no Jutsu? Nothing is the answer. Although if they were truly weaker than other clones, Madara wouldn't use them, would he? Your logic is flawed when discussing these points. Madara stated he himself was the only one who could see through the Mukoton Bunshin's with the use of a dojutsu technique, implying other Uchiha's wouldn't be capable of telling the difference [

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]. This doesn't mean that it has something to with the sharing an, it is an actual technique that deciphers them from the real one.

Taju Kage Bunshins=/=Moku Bunshin no Jutsu. If a Raiton Bunshin from Kakashi were capable of fooling the Rinnegan, than by obvious reason, a Moku Bunshin should fool the Rinnegan, unless of course, you can evidently prove that there is a difference between the Raiton Bunshin and the Mukoton Bunshin.

Lol Nagato pinned down. If you're going to use the same thing about his torii gates slamming him then the debate is really pointless. I have proved that Nagato can escape those things by using his chakra sensory powers while increasing his speed with rockets. You keep bringing up a defeated point over and over and that's what leading this to a pointless debate. First of all, going by your logic, Hashirama would have done the tactic against Madara and kyuubi but he didn't. Mokuton bunshin while performing jutsu is not instant as you make it seems. ST is instant attack. That means the moment Hashi is creating clone, Nagato can just go for Shinra tensie and cancel the jutsu. Pollen is also defeated point. If my examples are flawed then where are your scans?. Don't say they're flawed unless you have scans in which you don't for that matter. I have scans showing Mokuton bunshin has little vitality and you're comparing them to susanoo's defence?Lol.

That's not how it works. It always depends on what bunshin you're talking about. Suiton bunshin has 10% of the original chakra. Raiton bunshin has the same amount of chakra to its original and proven by Kakashi [

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]. The reason why Nagato couldn't tell is because raiton bunshin and kage bunshin have the same amount of chakra proven by Neji. Mokuton bunshin are depending on the amount of chakra Hashirama handing out to them. So rinnegan can see the chakra flow being disturbed through bunshin as evidence they are clones. Not to mention Nagato also knew this Kakshi was not bunshin [

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]. Therefore, Nagato should be able to tell who is the bunshin just fine.

This is all speculation. Pollen is a KO jutsu once you're under it. Nagato's rain jutsu doesn't have enough feats to be used in a battle, otherwise I could say Hashirama doesn't die due to his Medical Ninjutsu that surpass Sōzō Saisei. Rain jutsu has not shown the amount of hand seals required to use it, if it takes any chakra, how it is used, prep time if any, etc. thus can't be used in a debate as you could simply make it favourable towards your arguments since you can 'fill' the missing gaps. The summoning bird won't share vision with him. Genjutsu manipulates the mind, not the eyes. Bringer of Darkness removes the sense of sight, so him summoning external sources to help him see when his vision is impaired by Genjutsu isn't helping. Genjutsu controls the senses, it does not simply make your eyes not see or your nose not smell, the entire sense is gone, hence why summonings won't affect it. He can't sense chakra build up, where did you get this? He could sense the

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in Itachi's eye while using Amateratsu, since MS users have lots of pressure in their eyes build up which is why they bleed. He hasn't shown to be capable of sensing chakra build up anywhere in the manga, unless of course you can provide non-existent scans. Yes he can fly, but for what reason will he fly if he doesn't know where he is? Torri gate prevents him from flying even if he attempts to fly. Stop overrating his sensory skills.
Once again, his EMS didn't evolve to the rinnegan, otherwise he would't have his EMS anymore. Evolving is the gradual change of something, not the manifestation of a new ability. Your logic is flawed again. Once you show me scans of the Rinnegan seeing through genjutsu, it's a feat, before that it's simply uncalled for hype. Did you not read what I said last time about them being different? and that if this were true than the Rinnegan should also have Amateratsu since it 'evolved'?

[

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]. Rain jutsu cant be used in battle:| okay pal. I have a scan where Nagato shows no hand seal when the rain comes out and Konan confirming by saying ''The Sky Cries Again''. Therefore it can be used in battle but of course you don't want it to be used in favour for Hashirama. Sorry but shinobi's arsenal can be used all in fights. Rain jutsu doesn't need any preparation time. Where did i say the bird will let Nagato see through the darkness? show me a quote. I used the rinnegan vision when you brought the FTW arument. Read my replies and counter them properly. Yes he can. He sensed Itachi's pressure build up not becuase MS users have this problem, but because the chakra is focused in the eyes. Obito also sensed the chakra build up in Sasuke's eyes [

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] and Nagato has done the same with Itachi [

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]. Stop overrating the torii gates falling speed. I have showed a scan where torii gates are falling, and i proved with scans of manga that Nagato's sensory powers along with his speed allows him to avoid the torii and you're saying i am overrating him despite the manga pages i am showing. By sensing the gates falling, Nagato can mover out of range just since he can sense chakra and react to it (manga fact).

Rinnegan seeing through genjutsu > [

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] [

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]. Genjutsu can also be noticed because chakra will be disturbed. But fine lets not argue but the rinnegan being evolution of EMS.

I don't see how the panel adds up to it being slow? Juubito is the fastest character in the manga and didn't even react to it. This is also a single Tori Gate, now

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and there's absolutely no chance he can escape. Look at this scan [

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] can you see the size of the gate compared to Manda? 10 of these forming a square to equal the same length and width is simply a huge size. Despite this, you back up your claim saying that Bee got blitzed and he can use rockets under his feet. Both of these aren't notable feats. The rockets under feet were reacted to and countered by Naruto who was in SM [

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]. Saying this ability is increased when Nagato uses it without the Pains is not considered a feat, but rather hype, so it is pointless to add in a debate. while blitzing B does't seem special to me as he isn't praised for having quick reaction, nor is he praised for having a sharing an that allows him to perceive movements clearer. Your speed feats aren't enough to escape ten Tori Gates, stop coming up with excuses like rockets under feet because they aren't as fast as they seem to be. Counter my argument on how anyone could escape such a large distance in a quick time and ill commend you. Before that, don't say rockets under his feet can do the trick, because they logically can't.

I demonstrated he can't sense chakra melding, and can only sense pressure according to feats, so your point is null and void. I already have claimed that he can summon a Rashumon or use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu to give himself a good defines. If he were to use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, than Nagato has absolutely no Jutsu that can defeat it apart from CT or an 'ultimate' ST, both of which cannot be done in a state where you are bound by a Tori Gate.

Ok.. Nice to know his strongest attack, but can you put them in an argument? Nevermind, Gedo Mazo gets bound the second he's summoned by a Tori Gate. It

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the Juubi as I mentioned in my previous post, and it hasn't changed since then. You're not reading my point correctly. I stated heavy pressure would split them as they always do. Once they are bound by a Torri Gate they can multiply and split all they want, they will still be bound by the Tori Gate as they only split horizontally. Unless you can show a scan of them splitting from torso to to and torso to head, than they can't do it, unless you believe he can pull heads out of thighs.

That was the juubi in control over Obito [

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]. The reason it couldn't react is because its simply things looked weird to it. Oh really so Nagato doesn't have the feat of performing the rockets. Quite this crap. 6 pains are simply puppets Nagato is controlling with his chakra, so the feats they are performing comes from Nagato himself. Nagato was not paying attention to SM Naruto but Tsunade, so its no surprise. LMAO, you say its no incredible feat when reality is showing else. The Nagato who speedblitz Killer Bee was crippled one in fact, and the Nagato i am talking about is healthy Nagato who is with no doubts faster than crippled Nagato. Give him rockets under his feats along with his sensory powers that allows him to avoid (amatersu, faster attack), then logically he can avoid them.

You demonstrated nothing that can defeat the scan i provided above [

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]. Already showed a scan of Shinra tensie that can push away the Hotei no jutsu, you claim Nagato isn't using an attack like that constantly, then i will claim Nagato will only use it for big jutsu therefore hotei no jutsu argument is now invaild.

Except i was never referring about GM and torri gates. My first argument of GM was this:

Spoiler

-Mokuton mokujin maybe a great defence but it has no fire power threat. It will be destroyed by Gedo Mazo once its summoned by using these [

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][

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]. Gedo Mazo fire power is comprabale to kyuubi's TBB that even destroyed Mokujin [

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].

You're the one who isn't reading properly. If Hashirama drops the gates on GM then his movement is restricted and will be killed easily by Nagato. He needs a clone to do that but he cant do it since he hasn't shown it during the juubi time span when hokage arrived into obito become a jinch so he has no feats. Therefore using the torri gates argument is now irrelevant. How many times do i have to bring the same scan of Nagato saying you have to defeat him to stop the dogs from dividing. Manga says that and you all bring is baseless speculation that deny manga fact. Hashirama using the torii gates will result to his defeat since he cant move while focusing restraining them and he has no feat that his clones can do that for him unless you have scan suggesting that.

Okay, Ill agree with you on that (even though you never agree to my points even when they are clearer than persil). However, when he used CT he added a lot more chakra to Deva Path than the rest, hence why he had to come much closer to him and put immense stress on Nagato. I will say CT can be made 2 times bigger at most though and this is me being generous. Your point of Paths=/=Nagato is proven, but your point of CT with Healthy Nagato=6 times the size of the one used on 8 tailed Kurama and your point of CT used by healthy Nagato can defeat the Shinsusenju have not been proven. You have yet to tell me how these two are true, especially the Shinsusenju part. Shisusenju plays around with Healthy Nagato's CT while babysitting Nagato. It's strength as I have stated before is many times equal to that of the Kyuubi's. The 8 tailed Kyuubi broke out of a 1/3-1/2 actual sized CT [

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]. A 100% 9 Tail should be capable of breaking out of a double sized or even triple sized CT. Let me look back quickly at how the Shinsusenju's hand compares to 100% Kyuubi in strength...[

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]. Clearly no chance in a battle of strength, and the 8 tailed 50% Kyuubi overpowered a 1/3-1/2 CT when the Shinsusenju is at least 50 times stronger than the 100% Kyuubi.

Not really you don't have to be generous. Healthy Nagato's CT is a lot bigger whether how you want it to be [

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]. Already proven that by manga scan< that Nagato's 6 path when performed by him is far stronger than Pain's. CT was used to trap the juubi. The Juubi itself is comparable to the Shinsuusenju size.

Juubi size > [

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] [

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].

My reason is why CT from healthy Nagato would defeat Shinsuusenju is because, the orb will be way too high for the statue to reach, that gives it time to grow very huge, and knowing Hashirama will be standing on top of his statue [

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]. That means when Hashirama will be separated from his statue due to the gravity that's pulling him and thus he wont have anything that can counter it since he has no fire power. Also Hashirama's mokuton techniques are all revolve around the environment and CT was shown to absorb a huge amount of rocks and mountains [

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] [

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]. You can see the crate left is wider and large than Shinsuusenju.

Telling me to stop bringing the same points back up again.. the irony. Unfortunately most of Nagato's feats are from the Pain's so I can only judge them from what I saw their as that is a feat. Multiplying its strength by a certain number to achieve an assumed potential is considered hype, and isn't tolerated in debates. Dragon soul is overrated. It can easily kill fodder, but skilled ninja like Hashirama would not die to such a jutsu. Hanzou was capable of using Shunshin to escape [

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]. Hashirama should be able to do the same thing, and after running away for about 1 minute, the match would be over; Hashirama victorious. You could clearly see it wasn't long until Nagato had to stop the jutsu due to the situation it had put him [

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]. This is really not the ability you want to rely on, since it is made to make you lose at these levels.

Unfortunately the feats you're using from pain have been proved to be inferior to Nagato's:

Spoiler

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Its a manga fact, that Nagato's performance of 6 path is much stronger. So like i said using those feats is void.

Fine i agree, but let me add this as well, that if Nagato has somehow stabbed Hashirama with his black rod, then the fight is over because Nagato's chakra will control Hashirama's body. It took the combined effort of 50% kyuubi + SM chakra to break out from it.

 

[NarutoIndra]

Where did i say Nagato can dispel Senjutsu? a quote please. I said that the senjutsu chakra that gets absorbed can be wasted by Nagato using on techniques. Databook stated that preta path is a sealing jutsu [

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]. It says the chakra that is sucked disperse around and it becomes part of the user's own chakra. The only reason preta path turned into a statue is because the senjutsu chakra that became part of Nagato's own chakra has dwarfed his spiritual and physical energy. That wont be the case when Nagato absorbs senjutsu from mokuton techniques since they are fraction of Hashirama's senjutsu chakra and they can be wasted by Nagato wasting on jutsu. Oh really so this is Hashirama wasting chakra for 24 hours, well allow me to show a this scan [

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]. Nagato is constantly transmitting chakra to the deva path for 3 days.

Nagato's chakra feats:

-control 6 bodies constantly
-uses powerful jutsu through his paths
-he cannot possibly rest
-fought konoha ninjas
-used a large scale shinra tensie
-fought SM Naruto + toads
-fought against 6 tail kyuubi
-created CT that completely dwarfed the kyuubi
-outlasted Naruto's chakra
-revived all of konoha
-also wasting chakra activating rinnegan

These are feats from sick, skinny, old deathbed Nagato who doesn't rest and keeps wasting large amount of chakra every sec through his paths. That means his chakra is nothing compared to his prime since we know chakra is decreased by age. Nagato was about 40-45 aprox when performing these feats. Not to mention Madara gave Nagato the rinnegan because Nagato was the only with the chakra levels that can use them. So no Nagato's chakra levels are on par with Hashirama or large and i proved it. Lol what? Shinju branch didn't even touch Hashirama. All he was doing was dodging them. Hashirama's senjutsu chakra ran out at that time.

Lmao. Ok you never said dispel it, I will elaborate on his senjutsu another time, as it won't count for much in my argument since he won't require it as much. I stated Hashirama wasted chakra on a Kekkai Genkai for

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. Nagato only can be assumed to have had only deva path active at that given time, so that means all his chakra is going towards the deva path. Anyone can do that, since all other akatsuki members were capable of doing this, unless of course, you are trying to say all akatsuki members are equal to Hashirama in chakra or that Nagato has his 6 paths on all the time. This wasn't a feat. Large scale shinra tensei is agreeable. CT is agreeable. Naruto isn't a way point, especially in comparison to Hashirama. Rinne Tensei is agreeable. Rinnegan is agreeable. Despite this, I still don't see him having chakra equal to Hashirama's chakra, but I will simply ignore this as it is not going anywhere in this debate.

We can only speak of that Nagato, prime Nagato has no chakra feats, so claiming he can do something he hasn't shown to is speculating. Chakra is decreased by age, but we don't the amount so you are simply speculating. Does it matter? No, he can simply reactivate SM so I don't see the reasoning behind your point.

Lol Nagato pinned down. If you're going to use the same thing about his torii gates slamming him then the debate is really pointless. I have proved that Nagato can escape those things by using his chakra sensory powers while increasing his speed with rockets. You keep bringing up a defeated point over and over and that's what leading this to a pointless debate. First of all, going by your logic, Hashirama would have done the tactic against Madara and kyuubi but he didn't. Mokuton bunshin while performing jutsu is not instant as you make it seems. ST is instant attack. That means the moment Hashi is creating clone, Nagato can just go for Shinra tensie and cancel the jutsu. Pollen is also defeated point. If my examples are flawed then where are your scans?. Don't say they're flawed unless you have scans in which you don't for that matter. I have scans showing Mokuton bunshin has little vitality and you're comparing them to susanoo's defence?Lol.

That's not how it works. It always depends on what bunshin you're talking about. Suiton bunshin has 10% of the original chakra. Raiton bunshin has the same amount of chakra to its original and proven by Kakashi [

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]. The reason why Nagato couldn't tell is because raiton bunshin and kage bunshin have the same amount of chakra proven by Neji. Mokuton bunshin are depending on the amount of chakra Hashirama handing out to them. So rinnegan can see the chakra flow being disturbed through bunshin as evidence they are clones. Not to mention Nagato also knew this Kakshi was not bunshin [

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]. Therefore, Nagato should be able to tell who is the bunshin just fine.

How is it pointless? I have shown you the magnitude of a single Tori Gate, if you side

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by each other the AOE would be enormous, and since you can't give me scans which prove amazing reaction speed and speed feats performed by Nagato, than it is you who's making this debate pointless. When has Nagato sensed chakra by his own sensing capabilities? Your example of Itachi was invalid, and Kabuto is not clear as we did not see him sense it, and don't know if he can do it without him being directly linked with Kabuto's chakra. This negates your point of him sensing it coming his way when he's not expecting it. Furthemore, even if he sees it once its coming, he won't react and escape Senpō: Myōjinmon, within the timeframe it takes for them to fall, unless of course you can show me impressive reaction speed and speed in his healthy form. If you don't, than I can only go by the means of his speed with rockets under his feet when used by his paths. This is clearly not a defeated point, as there is lots of information you are failing to provide. And again, considering Juubito didn't even look up or react, we can only say that the Tori Gate is insanely quick. Saying Nagato can react is delusional, as even if Juubito was not hit by these gates, it's only logical to assume that Nagato cannot cross such distances so quickly. I didn't say the Myukojin could bind a PS, and I highly doubt that is true. And even if it were true, PS could simply grow another arm and cut off the Tori gate as it can manifest more than two arms [

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]. This would clearly mean using Tori gate against an experienced Susano user is useless. having used it against Kurama would be smart, if and only if, Madara couldn't cut it with his Susano Sword (which he could).

Hashirama using clones and jutsu's is not instant, you are correct. However, if you read what I wrote, he can use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu which allows him to open and close the mouth at will. This defensive structure cannot be damaged by any jutsu Nagato has to offer, as it withstood a TBB [

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]-->[

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]. His shinra tensei that was used against Konoha can destroy it, but do you really think it is worth using this jutsu every time Hashirama wants to use Mukoton Bunshin? No. For one, if he used it, Hashi can simply use Mukoton after the ST is done, and Nagato cannot counter with ST anymore, as he has to wait a long duration until he can use any form of ST again. Second of all, if he doesn't, than Hashirama can simply use Mukoton Bunshin inside this structure (

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),

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it and leave himself while he keeps the Mukoton Bunshins unnoticed within the strucutre. This would allow for surprise Tori gates that would make it even harder to react to, while fighting Hashirama who coincidentally decided to use Bringer of Darkness and end the fight. You still believe your scans showed little vitality? Not in a logical point of view. Mukoton Bunshin died against Susano, Minato would too. Mukoton Bunsihn gets ripped in half by Juubito, anyone would get ripped in half by Juubi dead or alive, which is why I stated your logic is flawed, as these aren't reasonable links to prove your point. I didn't compare them to Susano defence... WTF/

You are misinterpreting the scan once again. Kakashi says he has approximately half his chakra left after using ration bunshin. This does not imply it takes half his chakra, since we know he wasn't at at 100% chakra when he used it, as well as him saying he has 'about' half his chakra, meaning a dojutsu should still distinguish the difference if it isn't exactly 50% of his chakra. However, this isn't the case. You can see in these scans [

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]-->[

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]--[

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]-->[

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]-->[

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] Doton Jutsu, 3 Raikiri's, Raijū Hashiri no Jutsu, and a Raiton clone. Kakashi in Part 1, could use Raikiri 4 times a day before he dies [x], Part 2 Kakashi has shown to do it 6 times at the very least in a single day. However, saying he can do it ten times a day is out of the question, as his chakra cannot have been multiplied by 2.5 in such a short period. This is inferring that Kakashi used 33% of his chakra at the very least with Raikiri alone against Pain. The Doton Jutsu, Raiton Bunshin, and Raijū Hashiri have to have accounted for some chakra as well, knowing Kakashi's extremely small chakra reserves. So saying he was at 50% chakra when he created his clone would mean his clones can't possibly have more than 12% since he has 50%-33% from Raikiri+any chakra Raijū Hashiri and Doton: Doryūheki (which I do not even account since I am being generous) meaning their is a reasonable difference in chaira between them, yet Pain cannot distinguish them apart and is

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when it is a Raiton Bunshin. and But on the point, you could be correct that Hashirama choses how much he hands out to them. But as I have established, Hashirama isn't going to leave them out in the open, but rather within the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, which keeps them perfectly safe. Your point proven, but it doesn't change the fact that the Bunshins won't be seen by Nagato to begin with, let alone told apart from the real one, as he won't get a glance of them.

[

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]. Rain jutsu cant be used in battle:| okay pal. I have a scan where Nagato shows no hand seal when the rain comes out and Konan confirming by saying ''The Sky Cries Again''. Therefore it can be used in battle but of course you don't want it to be used in favour for Hashirama. Sorry but shinobi's arsenal can be used all in fights. Rain jutsu doesn't need any preparation time. Where did i say the bird will let Nagato see through the darkness? show me a quote. I used the rinnegan vision when you brought the FTW arument. Read my replies and counter them properly. Yes he can. He sensed Itachi's pressure build up not becuase MS users have this problem, but because the chakra is focused in the eyes. Obito also sensed the chakra build up in Sasuke's eyes [

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] and Nagato has done the same with Itachi [

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]. Stop overrating the torii gates falling speed. I have showed a scan where torii gates are falling, and i proved with scans of manga that Nagato's sensory powers along with his speed allows him to avoid the torii and you're saying i am overrating him despite the manga pages i am showing. By sensing the gates falling, Nagato can mover out of range just since he can sense chakra and react to it (manga fact).

Rinnegan seeing through genjutsu > [

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] [

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]. Genjutsu can also be noticed because chakra will be disturbed. But fine lets not argue but the rinnegan being evolution of EMS.

Lol? again, you are using unviable scans. Whomever said Deva path was the one who used this ability? You

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see the real Nagato and what he is doing when this is activated, so you are merely speculating that Deva path can use this and it requires no hand seals/not much chakra. Therefor you clearly cannot use it in battle. We don't know if it requires preparation, so stop giving it unseen feats, or I can give Hashirama unlimited healing (which is hype like yours since too little is know about them, yet both are possible.) Your scans mean nothing once again. I already stated Nagato could sense the pressure, not the chakra unless you are willing to go against what the manga stated. He didn't say 'I can sense chakra build up in his eye', he said I can sense

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, so we take it as it is. Obito sensing chakra=/=Nagato sensing chakra. Obito is technically beyond anyone in anything. He can possibly sense the environment with the enormous Senjutsu chakra (Juubi) and new abilities he has. What you just said was Juubito could sense it so Nagato can sense it, which makes no sense. It wasn't stated he could see it in any scenario, both of these were sensory perception scenarios, so you cannot compare. Your tori gate scan didn't support your assumption. I didn't claim it instantly is teleported atop of the opponent, I claimed it is summoned from top, and dropped down. Your scan actually proved that it was extremely quick; as long and numerous lines when two objects are in distant from one another signifies quick free fall in manga's, which your scan did [

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]. Juubito didn't move or react to it=Nagato won't either, why? Logic since Jubito's speed surpasses any character. I have proven that there are no feats indicating he can naturally sense chakra, since he would have been capable of tracking his partners and Naruto's chakra, which he didn't [

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], which not only proves he can't sense chakra, but also that he cannot use his rinnegan to see through materials that contain chakra themselves, hence why he wouldn't see the Mukoton Bunshins within the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu. Your point is still invalid.

Your point sounds a little desperate, since once again you interpret scans the way you want to, to back up your arguments with invalid facts. The sound genjutsu wasn't used by then, since you could clearly see a few chapters later that they hadn't finished with it yet [

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] and that once it was done, they were under the genjutsu [

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]. They got out of it because the human paths fixed them up as stated here [

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]. Your point is still incorrect, and cannot be proved. Chakra will be disurbed within themselves. Show me scans where rinnegan has the capability of looking into its own brain's chakra networks, and disturb it.

That was the juubi in control over Obito [

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]. The reason it couldn't react is because its simply things looked weird to it. Oh really so Nagato doesn't have the feat of performing the rockets. Quite this crap. 6 pains are simply puppets Nagato is controlling with his chakra, so the feats they are performing comes from Nagato himself. Nagato was not paying attention to SM Naruto but Tsunade, so its no surprise. LMAO, you say its no incredible feat when reality is showing else. The Nagato who speedblitz Killer Bee was crippled one in fact, and the Nagato i am talking about is healthy Nagato who is with no doubts faster than crippled Nagato. Give him rockets under his feats along with his sensory powers that allows him to avoid (amatersu, faster attack), then logically he can avoid them.

Where is this stuff you claim stated? I know he was controlling Obito, but where does it show that he could see things differently than before? After all he was capable of breaking reinforced Tori gates and break the barrier [

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]... What? He is the one who empowers the path to use it, it is his chakra and him weaving signs if any after all. Your logic is flawed to think he can't use it because he didn't show it, even when the path's showed he could use it. He can do anything the paths do since he has the rinnegan. However, boosting his ability only because it was stated he was faster is hype. You can say he's faster, but do we know how much faster? No is the answer, so you cannot give him unseen feats to make him escape something free falling in the magnitude of 10 Tori Gates. Quote me saying he couldn't use an ability the paths used, I simply said you can't empower it and think it is a feat, because that isn't how it works. Lmao? Once again. Nagato was crippled, show me the difference of speed and I will agree to your every point here (almost). Again giving healthy Nagato feats isn't viable in a debate, when will you understand this.. Only because Naruto said he was faster doesn't mean we know how much faster, so you can't give him a assumed boost. His speed with rockets makes him faster, but not as much as you are making it seem, since we can only go by what he did vs Tsunade. Saying he was 50 m/s against Tsunade and saying he is now x/s in his healthy form is hype, not debatable, it just is. I already disproved his sensing abilities apart. He was also looking directly at Itachi, he won't even notice the Mukoton Bunshins to begin with.

You demonstrated nothing that can defeat the scan i provided above [

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]. Already showed a scan of Shinra tensie that can push away the Hotei no jutsu, you claim Nagato isn't using an attack like that constantly, then i will claim Nagato will only use it for big jutsu therefore hotei no jutsu argument is now invaild.

Except i was never referring about GM and torri gates. My first argument of GM was this:

You're the one who isn't reading properly. If Hashirama drops the gates on GM then his movement is restricted and will be killed easily by Nagato. He needs a clone to do that but he cant do it since he hasn't shown it during the juubi time span when hokage arrived into obito become a jinch so he has no feats. Therefore using the torri gates argument is now irrelevant. How many times do i have to bring the same scan of Nagato saying you have to defeat him to stop the dogs from dividing. Manga says that and you all bring is baseless speculation that deny manga fact. Hashirama using the torii gates will result to his defeat since he cant move while focusing restraining them and he has no feat that his clones can do that for him unless you have scan suggesting that.

I have already defeated this scan when I showed you Nagato sensed pressure while Juubito sensed chakra build up in addition to Nagato sensing=/=Juubito sensing. I didn't make it up that he can't always use it [

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].

Who said he can use Hotei Jutsu only once? If Hashi uses Hotei Jutsu and Nagato destroys it with Shinra Tensei, than Hashirama can simply use Hotei Jutsu again.. This would simply mean Nagato has wasted his deva path ability for a few minutes, which could be quite the inconvenience for him. I don't see how your point made my argument invalid..

This is quite amusing. I can disprove your theory of Tori gates needing hand seals if you really want me too, although I see no reason to it but here; Hashirama here weaves his signs (bottom panel) for the Tori gate and you can see the 10 gates on the Juubi's tails [

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]-->[

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]. The next chapter, you can see him weave signs for Mukoton even when the Tori gates are present [

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]. Now after that, you can see Hashirama's clone use the Tori gate here [

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]. Which required different hand seals than the other Gates as proof him not needing to hold his sings, or his clones being able to weave signs for Tori seal. This strengthens my point now, since Hashirama can make 5 Mukoton Bunshins, each summoning 10 Tori gates=50 Gates for absolute proof that Nagato gets caught in it, even though he gets caught with a mere 10 gates.

Not really you don't have to be generous. Healthy Nagato's CT is a lot bigger whether how you want it to be [

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]. Already proven that by manga scan< that Nagato's 6 path when performed by him is far stronger than Pain's. CT was used to trap the juubi. The Juubi itself is comparable to the Shinsuusenju size.

Juubi size > [

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] [

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].

My reason is why CT from healthy Nagato would defeat Shinsuusenju is because, the orb will be way too high for the statue to reach, that gives it time to grow very huge, and knowing Hashirama will be standing on top of his statue [

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]. That means when Hashirama will be separated from his statue due to the gravity that's pulling him and thus he wont have anything that can counter it since he has no fire power. Also Hashirama's mokuton techniques are all revolve around the environment and CT was shown to absorb a huge amount of rocks and mountains [

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] [

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]. You can see the crate left is wider and large than Shinsuusenju.

Did I say it wasn't bigger? No. But we don't know its size, since it was

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quite early on. your scan was the wrong page, so I don't see what you are trying to do here.. Lmao this is once again amusing. Do you believe that Nagato can trap the Juubi with CT? SO6P=/=Nagato in any way, shape, or form. No... Nagato even

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his huge inferiority to the SO6P since, town sized=/=moon sized. Juubi is comparable to 9Shinsusenju in size, hence why he can't trap it with CT unless he makes it's multi-country sized . Hashirama does not have to be on the statue to control it. Hashirama was clearly on the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu when the TBB's were being fired, otherwise he would not have survived.. [

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] The Hobi no Jutsu is part of the Shinsusenju as you can see in this link, where the Hobi no Jutsu, which is known to be linked with the Mukoton Dragon is taking place over the Shunsusenju's head [

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]. This comes to show that they are both linked, and Hashirama will not be attracted to the CT independently, but rather with the Shinsusenju which will obliterate the CT as Naruto, Itachi, and Bee did. Bold is a baseless assumption.

Unfortunately the feats you're using from pain have been proved to be inferior to Nagato's:

Spoiler

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Its a manga fact, that Nagato's performance of 6 path is much stronger. So like i said using those feats is void.

Fine i agree, but let me add this as well, that if Nagato has somehow stabbed Hashirama with his black rod, then the fight is over because Nagato's chakra will control Hashirama's body. It took the combined effort of 50% kyuubi + SM chakra to break out from it.

Using feats is the only acceptable thing in a debate, deal with it, otherwise this is fan fiction where Nagato can use anything his Path's did, amplified by 6 times its original power. It does not work like this..

True, hence why Hashirama won't be hit by it. Saying he can do something that defeats Hashirama is different than saying how he would do it, because I am sure there is no way in hell Hashirama would get pierced by one. Hashirama is constantly using his abilities so he can keep Nagato at bay, he can repetitively throw down Tori Gates, make Nagato unconscious with Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin (which by the way was

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countered by the Kage's as you sated), he can trap Nagato with Bringer of Darkness, and he can use Mukoton Bunshins to fend off Nagato even if he get close. His SM will most likely allow him to dodge most of his attempts in piercing, while his SM will also allow him to best Nagato in Taijutsu not only in skill but in quantity (Mukton Bunshins). All these points have yet to be disproved, as I have shown all your points in regards to these were invalid. Once you have countered these, you may begin to contemplate on how he could possibly take the Shinsusenju down..

 

[Bronze]

Sorry for keeping you waiting. I was out for a while with my pals.

Lmao. Ok you never said dispel it, I will elaborate on his senjutsu another time, as it won't count for much in my argument since he won't require it as much. I stated Hashirama wasted chakra on a Kekkai Genkai for

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. Nagato only can be assumed to have had only deva path active at that given time, so that means all his chakra is going towards the deva path. Anyone can do that, since all other akatsuki members were capable of doing this, unless of course, you are trying to say all akatsuki members are equal to Hashirama in chakra or that Nagato has his 6 paths on all the time. This wasn't a feat. Large scale shinra tensei is agreeable. CT is agreeable. Naruto isn't a way point, especially in comparison to Hashirama. Rinne Tensei is agreeable. Rinnegan is agreeable. Despite this, I still don't see him having equal to Hashirama's chakra, but I will simply ignore this as it is not going anywhere in this debate.

We can only speak of that Nagato, prime Nagato has no chakra feats, so claiming he can do something he hasn't shown to is speculating. Chakra is decreased by age, but we don't the amount so you are simply speculating. Does it matter? No, he can simply reactivate SM so I don't see the reasoning behind your point.

And Hashirama having more chakra than Nagato is also speculating then. Your post makes no sense at all. How can prime Nagato have no chakra feats when he as old man has top 5 chakra levels. Saying that he has no feats because he hasn't shown is also speculating. Just because he hasn't shown it, doesn't mean he doesn't have it. But fine lets not talk about their chakra levels since its not getting use anywhere.

How is it pointless? I have shown you the magnitude of a single Tori Gate, if you side

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by each other the AOE would be enormous, and since you can't give me scans which prove amazing reaction speed and speed feats performed by Nagato, than it is you who's making this debate pointless. When has Nagato sensed chakra by his own sensing capabilities? Your example of Itachi was invalid, and Kabuto is not clear as we did not see him sense it, and don't know if he can do it without him being directly linked with Kabuto's chakra. This negates your point of him sensing it coming his way when he's not expecting it. Furthemore, even if he sees it once its coming, he won't react and escape Senpō: Myōjinmon, within the timeframe it takes for them to fall, unless of course you can show me impressive reaction speed and speed in his healthy form. If you don't, than I can only go by the means of his speed with rockets under his feet when used by his paths. This is clearly not a defeated point, as there is lots of information you are failing to provide. And again, considering Juubito didn't even look up or react, we can only say that the Tori Gate is insanely quick. Saying Nagato can react is delusional, as even if Juubito was not hit by these gates, it's only logical to assume that Nagato cannot cross such distances so quickly. I didn't say the Myukojin could bind a PS, and I highly doubt that is true. And even if it were true, PS could simply grow another arm and cut off the Tori gate as it can manifest more than two arms [

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]. This would clearly mean using Tori gate against an experienced Susano user is useless. having used it against Kurama would be smart, if and only if, Madara couldn't cut it with his Susano Sword (which he could).

Hashirama using clones and jutsu's is not instant, you are correct. However, if you read what I wrote, he can use Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu which allows him to open and close the mouth at will. This defensive structure cannot be damaged by any jutsu Nagato has to offer, as it withstood a TBB [

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]-->[

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]. His shinra tensei that was used against Konoha can destroy it, but do you really think it is worth using this jutsu every time Hashirama wants to use Mukoton Bunshin? No. For one, if he used it, Hashi can simply use Mukoton after the ST is done, and Nagato cannot counter with ST anymore, as he has to wait a long duration until he can use any form of ST again. Second of all, if he doesn't, than Hashirama can simply use Mukoton Bunshin inside this structure (

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),

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it and leave himself while he keeps the Mukoton Bunshins unnoticed within the strucutre. This would allow for surprise Tori gates that would make it even harder to react to, while fighting Hashirama who coincidentally decided to use Bringer of Darkness and end the fight. You still believe your scans showed little vitality? Not in a logical point of view. Mukoton Bunshin died against Susano, Minato would too. Mukoton Bunsihn gets ripped in half by Juubito, anyone would get ripped in half by Juubi dead or alive, which is why I stated your logic is flawed, as these aren't reasonable links to prove your point. I didn't compare them to Susano defence... WTF/

You are misinterpreting the scan once again. Kakashi says he has approximately half his chakra left after using ration bunshin. This does not imply it takes half his chakra, since we can't know if he was at 100% chakra when he used it, as well as him saying he has 'about' half his chakra, meaning a dojutsu should still distinguish the difference if it isn't exactly 50% of his chakra. But on the point, you could be correct that Hashirama choses how much he hands out to them. But as I have established, Hashirama isn't going to leave them out in the open, but rather within the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, which keeps them perfectly safe. Your point proven, but it doesn't change the fact that the Bunshins won't be seen by Nagato to begin with, let alone told apart from the real one, as he won't get a glance of them.

Its pointless because you can see the gates speed when falling on Obito [

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]. You use scans of when it fall on Juubi. It looked too fast because Juubi is big target. Nagato isn't. That's why its easy for him to avoid it. Kabuto here confirms that he was hiding in barrier [

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], and Itachi confirms it was Nagato who was sensing Kabuto's chakra when controlling them [

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]. Kabuto's barrier makes it harder to be found and Nagato did it. That's one feat why he can avoid the torii since he can sense from massive distance. Second is the fact he managed to sense the chakra pressure in Itachi eyes. That's not because MS users have this like the BS you're claiming without having scans. That's because the chakra was concentrated in Itachi's eyes and Nagato sensed that pressure. Also regarding Nagato's speed in his prime, fine here is one [

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]. You can see he jumped all the way to the cliff in a very high speed. Of course you're gonna say its not a great feat. now give him the rockets which he showed through his paths combined with his sensory powers, then he can avoid the gates. Period.

And why would Nagato keep using ST every time. He is already aware of what you're saying. After using ST, he can just absorb mokuton with preta path since DB canonically supports this, and senjutsu chakra if added is not going to harm him since they have fraction of senjutsu chakra while Nagato absorbed full. He also has rockets fire power comparable to giant rasengan. If bringer of darkness if used then Nagato's sensory powers makes it child game since Hiruzen was using his nose. Not really since i showed a scan of ST can take care of those clones. If they have vitality like you think, then post panels supporting it rather than just running a circle.

How is hobi can be used to hide clones. They will only destroy them. Why would Hashirama keep wasting his time looking after his clones while at the same time taking care of Nagato's incoming animals and GM. ST takes care of them in instant.

Lol? again, you are using unviable scans. Whomever said Deva path was the one who used this ability? You

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see the real Nagato and what he is doing when this is activated, so you are merely speculating that Deva path can use this and it requires no hand seals/not much chakra. Therefor you clearly cannot use it in battle. We don't know if it requires preparation, so stop giving it unseen feats, or I can give Hashirama unlimited healing (which is hype like yours since too little is know about them, yet both are possible.) Your scans mean nothing once again. I already stated Nagato could sense the pressure, not the chakra unless you are willing to go against what the manga stated. He didn't say 'I can sense chakra build up in his eye', he said I can sense

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, so we take it as it is. Obito sensing chakra=/=Nagato sensing chakra. Obito is technically beyond anyone in anything. He can possibly sense the environment with the enormous Senjutsu chakra (Juubi) and new abilities he has. What you just said was Juubito could sense it so Nagato can sense it, which makes no sense. It wasn't stated he could see it in any scenario, both of these were sensory perception scenarios, so you cannot compare. Your tori gate scan didn't support your assumption. I didn't claim it instantly is teleported atop of the opponent, I claimed it is summoned from top, and dropped down. Your scan actually proved that it was extremely quick; as long and numerous lines when two objects are in distant from one another signifies quick free fall in manga's, which your scan did [

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]. Juubito didn't move or react to it=Nagato won't either, why? Logic since Jubito's speed surpasses any character. I have proven that there are no feats indicating he can naturally sense chakra, since he would have been capable of tracking his partners and Naruto's chakra, which he didn't [

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], which not only proves he can't sense chakra, but also that he cannot use his rinnegan to see through materials that contain chakra themselves, hence why he wouldn't see the Mukoton Bunshins within the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu. Your point is still invalid.

Your point sounds a little desperate, since once again you interpret scans the way you want to, to back up your arguments with invalid facts. The sound genjutsu wasn't used by then, since you could clearly see a few chapters later that they hadn't finished with it yet [

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] and that once it was done, they were under the genjutsu [

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]. They got out of it because the human paths fixed them up as stated here [

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]. Your point is still incorrect, and cannot be proved. Chakra will be disurbed within themselves. Show me scans where rinnegan has the capability of looking into its own brain's chakra networks, and disturb it.

Thank you once again for proving that you don't know how the 6 paths of pain works. I will say it once more, 6 paths of pain are puppets Nagato is manipulating with his chakra through the black rod [

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]. That means every jutsu or movement they do is Nagato himself doing it but using another body. When the rain jutsu activated, Nagato himself activated through the deva path. That's not a hype or unseen feats, that's an actual feat and fact (not speculation). Therefore he can use them in battle like manga proved. Again you don't know what you're talking about. Itachi felt pressure because a large amount of chakra is concentrated in his eyes. Obito did the same thing as Nagato did and said in a more detailed way. Its you who is blind to see it. So now mindless jinchuriki = Nagato's lmao. You really don't know what you're talking about nor you're not analysing what manga is showing. You made it sound that torii gates are impossible to avoid, and like i shown, their falling speed are not as fast as you make them sound. Like i proved above, Nagato can avoid them. Unfortunately i have proved your argument WRONG. You said bringer of darkness can bind Nagato, and Hiruzen's senses were not effected with the exception of his eyes. Sensory powers do the trick. Point defeated. Mokuton bunshin chakra are disturbed and Nagato rinnegan can see that chakra being less than real Hashirama. I proved it with a Madara confirming it. You used raiton bunshin but i defeated. Point finished. Hobei is countered by ST.

Where is this stuff you claim stated? I know he was controlling Obito, but where does it show that he could see things differently than before? After all he was capable of breaking reinforced Tori gates and break the barrier [

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]... What? He is the one who empowers the path to use it, it is his chakra and him weaving signs if any after all. Your logic is flawed to think he can't use it because he didn't show it, even when the path's showed he could use it. He can do anything the paths do since he has the rinnegan. However, boosting his ability only because it was stated he was faster is hype. You can say he's faster, but do we know how much faster? No is the answer, so you cannot give him unseen feats to make him escape something free falling in the magnitude of 10 Tori Gates. Quote me saying he couldn't use an ability the paths used, I simply said you can't empower it and think it is a feat, because that isn't how it works. Lmao? Once again. Nagato was crippled, show me the difference of speed and I will agree to your every point here (almost). Again giving healthy Nagato feats isn't viable in a debate, when will you understand this.. Only because Naruto said he was faster doesn't mean we know how much faster, so you can't give him a assumed boost. His speed with rockets makes him faster, but not as much as you are making it seem, since we can only go by what he did vs Tsunade. Saying he was 50 m/s against Tsunade and saying he is now x/s in his healthy form is hype, not debatable, it just is. I already disproved his sensing abilities apart. He was also looking directly at Itachi, he won't even notice the Mukoton Bunshins to begin with.

So now you're saying Nagato can do the same is a hype. Okay pal, then show me scans of Hashirama protecting his clones with hobei no jutsu?
Show me scans of Hashirama clones performing torii gates?

Unless you can show me these hypes that we haven't seen then all of your posts were nothing but speculation BS since Hashirama has shown them like you claim. That's why i don't like debating people who use the same logic as you're doing. Nagato not showing something doesn't mean he cant do it. Lock that in your head.

I have already defeated this scan when I showed you Nagato sensed pressure while Juubito sensed chakra build up in addition to Nagato sensing=/=Juubito sensing. I didn't make it up that he can't always use it [

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].

Who said he can use Hotei Jutsu only once? If Hashi uses Hotei Jutsu and Nagato destroys it with Shinra Tensei, than Hashirama can simply use Hotei Jutsu again.. This would simply mean Nagato has wasted his deva path ability for a few minutes, which could be quite the inconvenience for him. I don't see how your point made my argument invalid..

This is quite amusing. I can disprove your theory of Tori gates needing hand seals if you really want me too, although I see no reason to it but here; Hashirama here weaves his signs (bottom panel) for the Tori gate and you can see the 10 gates on the Juubi's tails [

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]-->[

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]. The next chapter, you can see him weave signs for Mukoton even when the Tori gates are present [

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]. Now after that, you can see Hashirama's clone use the Tori gate here [

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]. Which required different hand seals than the other Gates as proof him not needing to hold his sings, or his clones being able to weave signs for Tori seal. This strengthens my point now, since Hashirama can make 5 Mukoton Bunshins, each summoning 10 Tori gates=50 Gates for absolute proof that Nagato gets caught in it, even though he gets caught with a mere 10 gates.



Did I say it wasn't bigger? No. But we don't know its size, since it was

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quite early on. your scan was the wrong page, so I don't see what you are trying to do here.. Lmao this is once again amusing. Do you believe that Nagato can trap the Juubi with CT? SO6P=/=Nagato in any way, shape, or form. No... Nagato even

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his huge inferiority to the SO6P since, town sized=/=moon sized. Juubi is comparable to 9Shinsusenju in size, hence why he can't trap it with CT unless he makes it's multi-country sized . Hashirama does not have to be on the statue to control it. Hashirama was clearly on the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu when the TBB's were being fired, otherwise he would not have survived.. [

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] The Hobi no Jutsu is part of the Shinsusenju as you can see in this link, where the Hobi no Jutsu, which is known to be linked with the Mukoton Dragon is taking place over the Shunsusenju's head [

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]. This comes to show that they are both linked, and Hashirama will not be attracted to the CT independently, but rather with the Shinsusenju which will obliterate the CT as Naruto, Itachi, and Bee did. Bold is a baseless assumption.



Using feats is the only acceptable thing in a debate, deal with it, otherwise this is fan fiction where Nagato can use anything his Path's did, amplified by 6 times its original power. It does not work like this..

True, hence why Hashirama won't be hit by it. Saying he can do something that defeats Hashirama is different than saying how he would do it, because I am sure there is no way in hell Hashirama would get pierced by one. Hashirama is constantly using his abilities so he can keep Nagato at bay, he can repetitively throw down Tori Gates, make Nagato unconscious with Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin (which by the way was

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countered by the Kage's as you sated), he can trap Nagato with Bringer of Darkness, and he can use Mukoton Bunshins to fend off Nagato even if he get close. His SM will most likely allow him to dodge most of his attempts in piercing, while his SM will also allow him to best Nagato in Taijutsu not only in skill but in quantity (Mukton Bunshins). All these points have yet to be disproved, as I have shown all your points in regards to these were invalid. Once you have countered these, you may begin to contemplate on how he could possibly take the Shinsusenju down..

Too bad you haven't. And Nagato absorbs it with preta path, so what's your point. Why Hashirama use the same move over and over. You make it look as if Hashirama has knowledge on rinnegan but he doesn't. So he isn't keep using the same thing over and over. No offence dude but i don't know if you're dumb or blind. In the panel where you showed Hashirama creating clones, none of them had SM. In the other scan, that wasn't Hashirama clone, that was the real Hashirama, i don't what BS you made. If clones can use them, Hashirama wouldn't bother staying with hokages and let his clones do the torii gates while he goes and does the work himself. Yet again you haven't proved anything what so ever. So torii gates remains as technique Hashirama clones cant perform. You need scans of Hashirama performing 50 gates since he hasn't shown which means he doesn't have that feat. Your logic.

Did I say it wasn't bigger? No. But we don't know its size, since it was

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quite early on. your scan was the wrong page, so I don't see what you are trying to do here.. Lmao this is once again amusing. Do you believe that Nagato can trap the Juubi with CT? SO6P=/=Nagato in any way, shape, or form. No... Nagato even

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his huge inferiority to the SO6P since, town sized=/=moon sized. Juubi is comparable to 9Shinsusenju in size, hence why he can't trap it with CT unless he makes it's multi-country sized . Hashirama does not have to be on the statue to control it. Hashirama was clearly on the Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu when the TBB's were being fired, otherwise he would not have survived.. [

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] The Hobi no Jutsu is part of the Shinsusenju as you can see in this link, where the Hobi no Jutsu, which is known to be linked with the Mukoton Dragon is taking place over the Shunsusenju's head [

You must be registered for see links

]. This comes to show that they are both linked, and Hashirama will not be attracted to the CT independently, but rather with the Shinsusenju which will obliterate the CT as Naruto, Itachi, and Bee did. Bold is a baseless assumption.

You really lack a sense of logic and common sense. First of all, you cant prove deathbed Nagato CT is smaller than Shinsuusenju so your point is void as well. I can because the CT performed by deathbed Nagato was almost the size of konoha.

This is buddah size > [

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] [

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]

CT size > [

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]

They're about as equal but CT will keep getting bigger until it dwarfs Shinsuusenju as Nagato can put more chakra into it [

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].

Not sure if you're being stupid, but that arm that picked Kyuubi up was Shinsuusenju own arm [

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]. You can see its actual arm was still there. Hobei no jutsu was not there. What BS is this? Hashirama was standing on his statue when it came out and now you're claiming that he can control it without standing on top of it. Scans or it will be ignored. Shinsuusenju wont do crap to CT. The arms of the statue are as durable as mountains since PS blade (that destroyed mountains) destroyed them. CT was shown to be able to absorb mountains into the core which means the shinsuusenju getting close means Hashirama will be flying away from the statue and crushed.

Using feats is the only acceptable thing in a debate, deal with it, otherwise this is fan fiction where Nagato can use anything his Path's did, amplified by 6 times its original power. It does not work like this..

True, hence why Hashirama won't be hit by it. Saying he can do something that defeats Hashirama is different than saying how he would do it, because I am sure there is no way in hell Hashirama would get pierced by one. Hashirama is constantly using his abilities so he can keep Nagato at bay, he can repetitively throw down Tori Gates, make Nagato unconscious with Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin (which by the way was

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countered by the Kage's as you sated), he can trap Nagato with Bringer of Darkness, and he can use Mukoton Bunshins to fend off Nagato even if he get close. His SM will most likely allow him to dodge most of his attempts in piercing, while his SM will also allow him to best Nagato in Taijutsu not only in skill but in quantity (Mukton Bunshins). All these points have yet to be disproved, as I have shown all your points in regards to these were invalid. Once you have countered these, you may begin to contemplate on how he could possibly take the Shinsusenju down..

Once again proving you don't WTH you're talking about. But i am not here giving you lessons.

You cant prove that Hashirama wont be stabbed considering SM Naruto and Kakashi have shows you overrated like him hell. Everything you said have been defeated but obviously do not want to admit it. Only if you look at my posts rather making claims about how Hashirama can use all of these with clones despite not having the feat to show them Lol.

 

[Bronze]

Also debate will be finished in 4/11/2013, so you have to make it quick before i start the poll.

 

[Multiply]

Here have some better music for enjoyment.

[video=youtube;E33Qe3adKO4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E33Qe3adKO4[/video]


I can't tell because I haven't read into it much, but whoever is debating for Hashirama you better win. U_U.

 

[Shura]

Also debate will be finished in 4/11/2013, so you have to make it quick before i start the poll.

You can't judge a debate by starting a poll. You have to get at least three judges which would judge your debate.

 

[Bronze]

You can't judge a debate by starting a poll. You have to get at least three judges which would judge your debate.

I cant. The poll will be for everyone. Unless there is a trick that will allow me to have only the judges vote and others don't. Do you know it?