[VS] EMS Sasuke vs EMS Madara

[shelke]

KH needs to explain this correctly. He has a point, but he's running around in circles. Time and Space are altered automatically once one uses Sharingan Genjusu.

 

[KingHashirama]

Because it should've been easier for you to understand.



Fact that this only applies to sasuke.



I dont care about what ever else you were arguing about. As you said I simply showed you that tsukuyomi is not the only EMS genjutsu.



Sasuke didnt use tsukuyomi against danzo.

Itachi doesnt have EMS, so how could he possibly expect to obtain PS?

Itachi doesnt have enton because its sasuke's mangekyou sharingan jutsu. Ama/enton, Itachi has ama/tsuku.

This has nothing to do with mastery, when has tsukuyomi specifically been shown? When Itachi uses it. Nobody else has been given the ability & it has never been suggested.



Sasuke did the same thing to Cee with a regular 3-T genjutsu, he even felt strain in his eye. Does that make it tsukuyomi? No.

Point being that tsukuyomi =/= all MS genjutsus, so saying that madara used it is baseless. I am done, continue if you want but I cannot make it any simpler than I already have.

"I don't care about whatever else you were arguing about"... Then why are you still replying to me after I said I was wrong on that. Do you want me to give you a medal?

And who said PS is solely a EMS tech? no one. But you are making that assumption though right.

Please try to understand that Enton is Amaterasu. The fact still remains you need to unlock Tsu/Ama to get Susanoo. Sasuke has already used Tsukuyomi from the opposite eye of Amaterasu, establishing he does have it.

@Bold....baseless assumption. Only supported by theories on Narutobase and not the manga. Manga has already clarified the requirements of Susanoo.. If you fans are ignorant enough to not go by them.. then that is your choice.

Did I say a 3-tomoe was a Tsukuyomi? no..... irrelevant


But you can say what Madara used was normal genjutsu.... even though it was in EMS...<<< AND THERE IS NO PROOF saying that Madara can use normal sharingan genjutsu with EMS.


Continue to believe in Narutobase theories all you want.. In the end Manga prevails.

KH needs to explain this correctly. He has a point, but he's running around in circles. Time and Space are altered automatically once one uses Sharingan Genjusu.

Point I am making is that, just like how Drapshin showed, that when Sasuke used normal sharingan genjutsu with EMS Kishimoto made sure to state it so. However when other times he used Genjutsu in MS Kishimoto did not say "Sharingan: Genjutsu". On top of that the guy does not understand that Tsukuyomi is simply a advanced version used in MS of the normal sharingan genjutsu. .

Its like saying Enton is different from Amaterasu.

 

[Draphsin]

"I don't care about whatever else you were arguing about"... Then why are you still replying to me after I said I was wrong on that. Do you want me to give you a medal?

Someone's getting mad that they're getting their butt kicked. Lol I'm replying because you insist on arguing after I proved you wrong.

And who said PS is solely a EMS tech? no one. But you are making that assumption though right.

Scans of an MS user having the necessary stamina in order to perfect susanoo before they go blind.

Sasuke showed us that if you train susanoo, the highest level you can achieve is the completed version before eyesight is almost completely deteriorated.

Itachi also cements this fact because he had susanoo for years yet he never showed any form of PS. He was near blind, therefore this proves that trying to develop susanoo any further than V4 is pointless without EMS.

Please try to understand that Enton is Amaterasu. The fact still remains you need to unlock Tsu/Ama to get Susanoo. Sasuke has already used Tsukuyomi from the opposite eye of Amaterasu, establishing he does have it.

Wrong, show me scans stating that ama = enton. They are separate jutsus whether you want to believe it or not.

Enton is the manipulation of amaterasu, sasuke casts amaterasu with one eye & manipulates it with the other. This is a manga fact. Where is your manga fact stating that sasuke used or has tsukuyomi? Or that amaterasu and enton are the same jutsu? You dont have one.

@Bold....baseless assumption. Only supported by theories on Narutobase and not the manga. Manga has already clarified the requirements of Susanoo.. If you fans are ignorant enough to not go by them.. then that is your choice.

Bullsh*t, give me the proof instead of talking out your ass. Until you prove otherwise ama & tsukuyomi are the requirements for itachi's susanoo.

You have NO evidence what so ever, your assumption is baseless, your opinion means nothing. You are using Itachi's databook page to support your empty theory. Sasuke does not have totsuka, Madara does not either, therefore that entry does not apply to them.

Did I say a 3-tomoe was a Tsukuyomi? no..... irrelevant

Disregard my proof? Of course you would...

Sasuke did what madara did via regular 3-T genjutsu, which rebuts your evidence regarding madara using tsukuyomi.

Anybody can make someone faint via genjutsu, now stop kidding yourself. You can't prove that madara used tsuku based on what happened to A.

But you can say what Madara used was normal genjutsu.... even though it was in EMS...<<< AND THERE IS NO PROOF saying that Madara can use normal sharingan genjutsu with EMS.

Doesnt matter, burden of proof is on you, lmao. You cannot prove that madara used tsukuyomi therefore saying that he used it is baseless. I am merely proving your invalid point wrong, madara did not use tsukuyomi until proven otherwise.

Continue to believe in Narutobase theories all you want.. In the end Manga prevails.

Continue to believe in the nonsense that you spew, but in the end everyone will simply laugh at you.

Btw before you go on to tell me how I said I was done, you brought up more topics & I had to put those down too. Madara does not have tsukuyomi, sasuke has ama/enton as his two MS jutsus. Those are the jutsus that he needs in order to unlock susanoo, Itachi needed ama/tsukuyomi, & madara's abilities havent been shown.

 

[Waltz]

I hope you aren't implying that Sasuke needs to be more powerful than Hashirama to beat EMS Madara w/o Kurama....cause the gap between the two (Hashirama and EMS Madara w/o Kurama) is large enough for Sasuke to surpass Madara but not be able to beat Hashirama.

Huh?

Naturally being a prodigy superior to Sasuke, more attuned with the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, maintaining larger charka pools and knowledge is enough for Madara to best Sasuke in that state. Genjutsu is useless, Enton isn't breaching Madz's Susano'o and it's only assumption at this point to contrast the Katana wielded by Sasuke's Susano'o to that of Madara's. Even though Perfect Susano'o has it's limitations in terms of defense's, Sasuke has no way to breach it. Currently, Madara in his prime without the Kyubi would still beat Sasuke.
​

 

[KidGamer65]

Huh?

Naturally being a prodigy superior to Sasuke, more attuned with the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, maintaining larger charka pools and knowledge is enough for Madara to best Sasuke in that state. Genjutsu is useless, Enton isn't breaching Madz's Susano'o and it's only assumption at this point to contrast the Katana wielded by Sasuke's Susano'o to that of Madara's. Even though Perfect Susano'o has it's limitations in terms of defense's, Sasuke has no way to breach it. Currently, Madara in his prime without the Kyubi would still beat Sasuke.

​

"Huh?" is what I should be saying here.

Madara clearly wins.

The first post in this entire thread. Where did I even say that Sasuke wins or that he is stronger than Madara? I said that he can surpass him without necessarily having to be stronger than Hashirama, that sentence alone pretty much implies that I believe Current Sasuke is weaker than Madara hence me using surpass in future tense, not past tense.

 

[Waltz]

@KidGamer65: Was addressing the bold: ​

the gap between the two (Hashirama and EMS Madara w/o Kurama) is large enough for Sasuke to surpass Madara but not be able to beat Hashirama.

This was prior Kyuubi...

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​

 

[KidGamer65]

@KidGamer65: Was addressing the bold: ​

This was prior Kyuubi...​

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Then what was all that Sasuke stuff for? Meh, regardless. Those words don't mean they were equal, especially since a superior version of EMS Madara alone lost to Hashirama at the VoTE. So how would they be equals w/o Kurama involved if Hashirama was able to defeat him even when he had Kurama? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Waltz]

Then what was all that Sasuke stuff for? Meh, regardless. Those words don't mean they were equal, especially since a superior version of EMS Madara alone lost to Hashirama at the VoTE. So how would they be equals w/o Kurama involved if Hashirama was able to defeat him even when he had Kurama? That doesn't make sense.

Everything done between these two scans [SM Hashi] was done without Kyuubi; says something about that large gap you were referring to.

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True that Hashirama ultimately bested him at the Valley, but the difficulty he faced was extraordinary. Not sure what you mean by a 'superior Version' when it still is his prime and the same could be said for current Sasuke. It could all only be pointing to: Sasuke abilities would rival Hashirama's to a questionable point if he was to surpass EMS Madara.​

 

[KidGamer65]

Everything done between these two scans [SM Hashi] was done without Kyuubi; says something about that large gap you were referring to.

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True that Hashirama ultimately bested him at the Valley, but the difficulty he faced was extraordinary. Not sure what you mean by a 'superior Version' when it still is his prime and the same could be said for current Sasuke. It could all only be pointing to: Sasuke abilities would rival Hashirama's to a questionable point if he was to surpass EMS Madara.​

He fought Sage Mode Hashirama in CQC until he returned to Base, that isn't saying anything here that helps your stances at all. I really hope you aren't implying Madara took down Mokujin, Mokuryu and remnants Shinuusenju when:

-Doing all this w/o Perfect Susanoo? You'd have to be completely ridiculous to believe that considering

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were able to clash with Perfect Susanoo

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to the end of that short skirmish when Obito blew the whole barrier up with Bijuu Dama.

-Hashirama clearly left the Mokuton constucts behind to go fight Madara in CQC, this fact is undeinable as its what the manga clearly shows us. So saying they were involved in the last clash between Madara and Hashirama is nothing but a lie.

Superior version means that Madara at the VoTE with Kurama is superior to the Madara you displayed in your scan, which was pre Kurama. The difficulty being extremely high doesn't change the fact that EMS Madara isn't going to be equal with Hashirama when the latter was able to beat EMS Madara with Kurama. That clearly goes against all logic.

 

[KingHashirama]

Someone's getting mad that they're getting their butt kicked. Lol I'm replying because you insist on arguing after I proved you wrong.



Scans of an MS user having the necessary stamina in order to perfect susanoo before they go blind.

Sasuke showed us that if you train susanoo, the highest level you can achieve is the completed version before eyesight is almost completely deteriorated.

Itachi also cements this fact because he had susanoo for years yet he never showed any form of PS. He was near blind, therefore this proves that trying to develop susanoo any further than V4 is pointless without EMS.



Wrong, show me scans stating that ama = enton. They are separate jutsus whether you want to believe it or not.

Enton is the manipulation of amaterasu, sasuke casts amaterasu with one eye & manipulates it with the other. This is a manga fact. Where is your manga fact stating that sasuke used or has tsukuyomi? Or that amaterasu and enton are the same jutsu? You dont have one.



Bullsh*t, give me the proof instead of talking out your ass. Until you prove otherwise ama & tsukuyomi are the requirements for itachi's susanoo.

You have NO evidence what so ever, your assumption is baseless, your opinion means nothing. You are using Itachi's databook page to support your empty theory. Sasuke does not have totsuka, Madara does not either, therefore that entry does not apply to them.



Disregard my proof? Of course you would...

Sasuke did what madara did via regular 3-T genjutsu, which rebuts your evidence regarding madara using tsukuyomi.

Anybody can make someone faint via genjutsu, now stop kidding yourself. You can't prove that madara used tsuku based on what happened to A.



Doesnt matter, burden of proof is on you, lmao. You cannot prove that madara used tsukuyomi therefore saying that he used it is baseless. I am merely proving your invalid point wrong, madara did not use tsukuyomi until proven otherwise.



Continue to believe in the nonsense that you spew, but in the end everyone will simply laugh at you.

Btw before you go on to tell me how I said I was done, you brought up more topics & I had to put those down too. Madara does not have tsukuyomi, sasuke has ama/enton as his two MS jutsus. Those are the jutsus that he needs in order to unlock susanoo, Itachi needed ama/tsukuyomi, & madara's abilities havent been shown.

@Bold.. me casually stating your ignorance is getting mad? :Omg:

Manipulation of Amaterasu is still Amaterasu. Unless what you are saying Itachi is the best Uchiha because he was unable to unlock all 3 of the techniques of the MS. Enton is simply manipulation of 1 of the main 3 techniques of the MS. So how does that even count as a different tech?

We talk about a MS/EMS you bring in a 3-T sharingan... why would you expect me to take the proof when it has no relevance in the argument?

And you can't provide that he didn't. The fact is when Tsukuyomi wasn't used with MS it was stated (just like the scan you provided). Otherwise so far known it was has been tsukuyomi. Please go learn what Tsukuyomi is then talk about it.

You can laugh at me all you want.. but at least I'm using logic here. Plus, as far as i'm concerned you can't even argue about getting all butt hurt.


Sasuke unlocking Susanoo:

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Tsukuyomi (MS genjutsu first Used):

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Amaterasu:

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Tsukuyomi confirmed by Danzo:

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And then he unlocks Susnaoo

 

[Bronze]

Sasuke first actually used Tsukuyomi in here:

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[KingHashirama]

Sasuke first actually used Tsukuyomi in here:

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Or that. ..........

 

[Waltz]

He fought Sage Mode Hashirama in CQC until he returned to Base, that isn't saying anything here that helps your stances at all. I really hope you aren't implying Madara took down Mokujin, Mokuryu and remnants Shinuusenju when:

-Doing all this w/o Perfect Susanoo? You'd have to be completely ridiculous to believe that considering

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were able to clash with Perfect Susanoo

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to the end of that short skirmish when Obito blew the whole barrier up with Bijuu Dama.

-Hashirama clearly left the Mokuton constucts behind to go fight Madara in CQC, this fact is undeinable as its what the manga clearly shows us. So saying they were involved in the last clash between Madara and Hashirama is nothing but a lie.

Superior version means that Madara at the VoTE with Kurama is superior to the Madara you displayed in your scan, which was pre Kurama. The difficulty being extremely high doesn't change the fact that EMS Madara isn't going to be equal with Hashirama when the latter was able to beat EMS Madara with Kurama. That clearly goes against all logic.

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Don't recall stating the bold.

@Red: That is your assumption. What events took place between the scans remains a mystery, what we do know is that by the second scan which refutes your assertion, there was a crater in the ground. You're asking me to believe Taijutsu is responsible for the crater?

@Blue: Madara lost the Kyubi during his battle with Shodai and still beat him out of Sennin Modo.

I guess you missed my point, KG: Sasuke's abilities would rival Hashirama's to a questionable degree if he was to surpass EMS Madara. ​

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Susanoo took most of the damage but he still took damage, also, since when did you lose chakra from getting damaged?

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, it's a combination of ones mental and physical energies. Getting damaged could theoretically reduce ones physical energies. That's why resting can replenish ones chakra.

 

[KidGamer65]

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, it's a combination of ones mental and physical energies. Getting damaged could theoretically reduce ones physical energies. That's why resting can replenish ones chakra.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

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Don't recall stating the bold.

@Red: That is your assumption. What events took place between the scans remains a mystery, what we do know is that by the second scan which refutes your assertion, there was a crater in the ground. You're asking me to believe Taijutsu is responsible for the crater?​

........Not sure if serious.

-That is basically what you are implying, cause Madara's Perfect Susanoo was destroyed and he definitely didn't have enough to put it back up.

-We have a scan of him jumping off his construct toward Madara. This says enough right here, that he left his construct and engaged Madara.

-And you think that an armless Buddha, Mokujin and Mokuryu fighting anything short of Perfect Susanoo have the power to make a crater that large? Get real. That was from Shinsuusenju's Chojo Kebutsu obviously.

@Blue: Madara lost the Kyubi during his battle with Shodai and still beat him out of Sennin Modo.

How many times will continue to harp on this extremely flawed point? So EMS Madara is just as strong as EMS Madara w/Kurama cause he "beat" Hashirama out of Sage Mode? When the latter wasn't using his Mokuton constructs, probably due to chakra constraints? You can't be serious.

Also, beating someone out of Sage Mode makes no sense whatsoever. Sage Mode lasts until Senjutsu chakra is completely used up, he simply managed to fight Hashirama before and after his Senjutsu chakra ran out.

I guess you missed my point, KG: Sasuke's abilities would rival Hashirama's to a questionable degree if he was to surpass EMS Madara.

Like I said, it depends on how much stronger than EMS Madara he'd gotten. If we are talking about VoTE Madara then yes, he'd be on par if not stronger than him. Most likely stronger given what VoTE Madara did to him. I didn't miss your point, how you're trying to back it up is obviously flawed.​

 

[DemonicAvenger]

Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

That could have changed though, in the instance that Mei was having her chakra absorbed by Zetsu this became shakey.

No one has a "pool" of chakra but creates chakra from those mental and physical energies. So theoretically, Zetsu shouldn't be able to absorb chakra since one does not have any except for when they create it for a Jutsu. Though it seems lately people just have "pools" of chakra, though it hasn't be outright stated that that's the way it is now.

So in a sense, there's wiggle room for either argument. I just wanted to point out that under the old understanding that its possible to lose chakra by being hurt. You could still be right in the case that this was retconed.

 

[Nagato The Sage]

Sasuke Wins

 

[Draphsin]

@Bold.. me casually stating your ignorance is getting mad? :Omg:

Lol you think that casually changing the topic changes the fact that you're mad. Can anyone here tell your emotion? lol, the fact that you want to change the topic tells me that you're rather annoyed.

Manipulation of Amaterasu is still Amaterasu. Unless what you are saying Itachi is the best Uchiha because he was unable to unlock all 3 of the techniques of the MS. Enton is simply manipulation of 1 of the main 3 techniques of the MS. So how does that even count as a different tech?

Everything you said in this paragraph is wrong. @Bold: Show me the scan, I asked for it twice now. Where in the manga does it say that ama = enton?

Itachi was able to awaken his 3 MS techniques, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, & susanoo. Sasuke does not have tsukuyomi until you show me a scan of him using it with the wording.

Do you know why the wording is important? Because kishi showed us wording for enton. So if your theory holds true then why give the same jutsu two different names? You realize that logic is bogus right? Not to mention sasuke casts enton with his right eye so unless you show me an uchiha with 2 MS jutsus in one eye (besides susanoo obviously u_u) then you have nothing but utter bs.

We talk about a MS/EMS you bring in a 3-T sharingan... why would you expect me to take the proof when it has no relevance in the argument?

Because you keep missing the goddamn point. Are you 12? Sasuke did what MADARA DID with his regular 3-T sharingan genjutsu. This means that it is possible for ANY genjutsu to do what madara's did.

I am proving your point wrong for the millionth time. You cannot base madara's genjutsu off of what happened to A.

And you can't provide that he didn't. The fact is when Tsukuyomi wasn't used with MS it was stated (just like the scan you provided). Otherwise so far known it was has been tsukuyomi. Please go learn what Tsukuyomi is then talk about it.

Stop turning the burden of proof on me. This is your pathetic counter? You still have no proof stating that madara used tsukuyomi.

Regular genjutsu can be cast with the MS. Regular ocular genjutsu doesnt have a name, tsukuyomi is the only MS genjutsu that is called out by name (besides KA) & you have no scans of anyone using it other than Itachi (who is the only known user of the jutsu as provided by manga & DB evidence).

Until you show me some form of proof which indicates that tsukuyomi is in another sharingan user then this assumption is baseless, please try to understand that

You can laugh at me all you want.. but at least I'm using logic here. Plus, as far as i'm concerned you can't even argue about getting all butt hurt.

Lmfao I see no logic, merely you grasping at straws. Where is your proof? I see no scans other than the bs ill get to below. No indication that sasuk or madara have used tsukuyomi.

Sasuke unlocking Susanoo:

Spoiler

Tsukuyomi (MS genjutsu first Used):

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Amaterasu:

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Tsukuyomi confirmed by Danzo:

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And then he unlocks Susnaoo

First/second scan: Already told you that regular MS genjutsu can be cast with the mangekyou. This proves nothing, what's stopping me from saying that it was a regular 3-T genjutsu (as shown by sasuke)? Nothing, and the fact that no ocular genjutsu has ever been called by name helps cement this fact. You may say that not all jutsus get named but then tell me genius why would kishi leave something like that out? If kishi wanted us to know that he has tsukuyomi then you would think that he would show the name of the jutsu after all the times sasuke has supposedly used it.

Danzo scan: Danzo was simply comparing sasuke's genjutsu to Itachi's tsukuyomi. Did danzo say that sasuke's tsukuyomi is nothing compared to Itachi's? Or did danzo say that "this" is nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi? English 101, "this" could easily be referring to a regular genjutsu, regular genjutsus are nothing compared to Itachi's tsukuyomi. So once again this proves nothing. If Danzo had outright called sasuke's genjutsu tsukuyomi then you would have proof but alas he didn't.

I don't get why you insist on trying to prove this right with no support on your part...How can you even think to present a proper argument without the adequate proof? Everything you have posted has been rebutted over & over again.

 

[Waltz]

Spoiler

Oh, I see. Thanks for the explanation.



........Not sure if serious.

-That is basically what you are implying, cause Madara's Perfect Susanoo was destroyed and he definitely didn't have enough to put it back up.

-We have a scan of him jumping off his construct toward Madara. This says enough right here, that he left his construct and engaged Madara.

-And you think that an armless Buddha, Mokujin and Mokuryu fighting anything short of Perfect Susanoo have the power to make a crater that large? Get real. That was from Shinsuusenju's Chojo Kebutsu obviously.


How many times will continue to harp on this extremely flawed point? So EMS Madara is just as strong as EMS Madara w/Kurama cause he "beat" Hashirama out of Sage Mode? When the latter wasn't using his Mokuton constructs, probably due to chakra constraints? You can't be serious.

Also, beating someone out of Sage Mode makes no sense whatsoever. Sage Mode lasts until Senjutsu chakra is completely used up, he simply managed to fight Hashirama before and after his Senjutsu chakra ran out.



Like I said, it depends on how much stronger than EMS Madara he'd gotten. If we are talking about VoTE Madara then yes, he'd be on par if not stronger than him. Most likely stronger given what VoTE Madara did to him. I didn't miss your point, how you're trying to back it up is obviously flawed.

KidGamer65, First you assume Hashirama and Madara only battled using Taijutsu after that point, then you go on to assume Madara didn't resurface Perfect Susano'o based upon another assumption, the highlighted bold. Ect... The only 'evidence' you bring to the table is a flawed reasoning that: what was highlighted [despite the enormous gap in events] is sufficient. The initial scan was day time and the latter was night meaning that a gap of several hours lie between the two and now you're trying to persuade me of the events that took place during the said time with no evidence?... As regards the underlined: 'beating' someone out of Sennin Modo is equivalent to combating them until they have lost the ability and beyond that point. The green makes no sense. As for the purple: Pretty much, however I think you're confused as to what is "EMS Madara"----EMS Madara is Madara only wielding the Eternal Magekyo. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

KidGamer65, First you assume Hashirama and Madara only battled using Taijutsu after that point, then you go on to assume Madara didn't resurface Perfect Susano'o based upon another assumption, the highlighted bold. Ect... The only 'evidence' you bring to the table is a flawed reasoning that: what was highlighted [despite the enormous gap in events] is sufficient. The initial scan was day time and the latter was night meaning that a gap of several hours lie between the two and now you're trying to persuade me of the events that took place during the said time with no evidence?... As regards the underlined: 'beating' someone out of Sennin Modo is equivalent to combating them until they have lost the ability and beyond that point. The green makes no sense. As for the purple: Pretty much, however I think you're confused as to what is "EMS Madara"----EMS Madara is Madara only wielding the Eternal Magekyo. ​

-Assume? The manga clearly shows him leaving his constructs behind and jumping toward Madara, then we see them in CQC several hours later. Anyone with decent reading comprehension would realize that they were in close combat during the off paneled time period. Anyone with decent reading comprehension would know for a fact that the statues were NOT involved due to Hashirama clearly abandoning them. So you're telling me that Hashirama, who needed Shinsuusenju to disable Perfect Susanoo, is going to survive a prolonged battle with it and then eventually defeat Madara w/o the use of Shinsuusenju or any of his Mokuton Constructs? Again, you can't even be serious with this nonsense. Don't tell me he used them when he clearly left them behind. Every single time he's used them he's stayed right on top of them, yet you are telling me he did use them even though once again, the manga shows him leaving them behind....

-Huh? The period of the fight that was shown in the manga took place all in one night. It never reached day time.

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-Beating someone out of Sage Mode implies he beat him so bad that he couldn't maintain it anymore, but whatever.

-Differentiating between Madara w/ and w/o Kurama is necessary for this argument. I know what EMS Madara is.