That Ninnja doesnt count, even though Hiashi can counter him. We haven't seen much of what he can do base sharingan and alive. So it's hard to gauge his chakra while alive. So its either kakashi, sasuke, or itachi since they have more screen time while alive.
That Ninnja doesnt count, even though Hiashi can counter him. We haven't seen much of what he can do base sharingan and alive. So it's hard to gauge his chakra while alive. So its either kakashi, sasuke, or itachi since they have more screen time while alive.
Sounds good. What we can do even further is give him any fire tech shown by itachi and sasuke aswell, plus any basic 3 tomoe genjutsu. his speed with his swords are around Killer bee's, and his speed looks basic, around Lee with out weights (sasuke hebi and no higher). We could have a decent argument made up and ofc have Hiashi have every hyuga/byakugan feat ever shown. Im down if you're down.
Sounds good. What we can do even further is give him any fire tech shown by itachi and sasuke aswell, plus any basic 3 tomoe genjutsu. his speed with his swords are around Killer bee's, and his speed looks basic, around Lee with out weights (sasuke hebi and no higher). We could have a decent argument made up and ofc have Hiashi have every hyuga/byakugan feat ever shown. Im down if you're down.
I will not takes sides in this arguement. This is a battle that can never truly be analyzed because they are both rivals and rivals are, for all intents and purposes, EQUAL.
I shall watch from the sidelines and will not intervene UNLESS I believe it necessary.
This battle can be analyzed because they are equals; if there was not a question of "who would win"; no one including the op would try to determine or argue for a winner since there would be no matter of question.
I agree they are equals; that's why it is nice to have a read about them; this is just a possible outcome of a fight that can go either way; there can also be made a case for Lee that he can come out as the victor.
\ Establishing the Opinions of Characters and Hype:
First and foremost, the last time Lee spoke in comparsion of his abilities to Neji's, he blatantly states that both he and his style of Taijutsu are inferior to that of Neji and the Jyuuken. While this could have changed in the time span in between then and up till Neji's death.
Shortly after the chunin exams, Neji finally acknowledged Lee as his rival. He no longer views himself or his gentle fist to be superior to that of Lee and his iron fist style; but more or less like equals. So this point really doesn't hold any significance as to whom is really stronger.
in·sight
/ˈinˌsīt/
noun
noun: insight1. the capacity to gain an accurate and deep intuitive understanding of a person or thing.
Here in lies an extremely overlooked advantage of the Byakugan. Within this, the Byakugan gains its own type of "Pre-Cognition". From the even the suttlest movements of the body, Neji is capable of reading the intentions and emotions of another person. [
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][
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]With his Byakugan, he will use this ability to "read" Lee in the sense of gaining an understanding of what Lee may do or how Lee is coping with the match.
With the advantage of being able to read his oppenant and having a superior style of Taijutsu, Neji has the upperhand already. Making it easier for him to react with his superior speed, that is proved by the databooks giving them equal scores in speed.
The Databooks don't take into account Ninjutsu for speed. Meaning that in regular body and reaction speeds Neji without Bykaugan = Lee. What makes Neji superior is the sight enhancement of Byakugan and the ability to further increase one's speed with Shunshin, which Lee doesn't have.
With the foundation of his superiority in place, Neji can use these advantages to continously block and counter Lee's Taijutsu assaults, which he has shown to be able to instantly react to a situation and counter multiple attacks from diffrent angles without warning. Even changing his momentum mid-air. Eventually finding an opening for Hakke Rokujūyon Shō as a game ender.
Neji's Showcasing his reaction feats:
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2) Contering Omoto Renge:
Countering Omoto Renge is in the Byakugan's nature. In the fashion that Lee may use the Jutsu, he will sometimes will speed around the adversary to try and throw them off.
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This is hard countered by the Byakugan's ability to see in a "near" 360 degrees around the user.
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Using a similar strategy that he will later to counter Ura Renge, Neji can use the
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in order to "feel" where Lee is. From there, he can use the initation of Kaiten to stop Lee's assault [These characteristics are on
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and
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]. The Jutsu itself will repel Lee.
If Neji is caught by the initial attack and caught by Lee's bindings, then
There really isn't much to say here, tbh. Assuming you aren't considering Lee's drunken fist style [Which would undoubtedly pose as a problem for Neji], the simple fact of the matter is that base Lee can't really contend with Neji, and I believe Lee understands that. So there isn't much, if anything to dispute here; as I don't believe Lee would spend anytime trying to out-combat Neji while in base, given all his failed attempts in a sparring match where he was restricted from going all out.
Also, before I move on, the Omoto Renge requires Lee to open the first inner gate.
After Lee has been outmatched in Base, he will no doubt begin to open the Hachimon. Which is a technique that Lee states he learned specifically to beat Neji
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One would think that if you learned a Jutsu to specifically beat a certain person, that it would be effective in realizing that goal, would you not? Though through his ability to detect and react at high speeds to multi-angulared attacks and his uncanny tolerance for pain, Neji has a few options of stopping the Ura Renge.
The first method:
As with Omoto Renge, Neji can utilize the
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in order to "feel" where Lee is. From there, he can use the initation of Kaiten to stop Lee's assault [These characteristics are on
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and
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]. The Jutsu itself will repel Lee, Leaving him open for
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This can be repeated until Lee has exausted.
The second method:
The second method presumes that Neji was incapable of stopping Lee's inital upwards kick.
As the same with Omoto Renge, to deal with Ura Renge after Neji has been sent airborn, Neji can tank the intial hits of Ura Renge
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[
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] then activate
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to repel Lee away from him.
Preventing the release of Hachimon all together:
The Hachimon are explained to be
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. This makes it suceptable to Jyuuken's ability to control the targets flow of chakra and shut off the points entirely.
I don't know if you're confusing the hachimon [Eight Inner Gates] with Ura Renge [Reverse Lotus]....but, Rock Lee didn't learn the Hachimon to defeat Neji. It was Ura Renge that Lee had developed and saved for the time he had to fight Neji in order to defeat him.
It's pretty unfortunate for Lee that Neji witnessed him using the Ura Renge, but it doesn't necessarily mean Neji has the means to counter it. Certainly not with the counters you provided, anyways.
Addressing your first method:
The Ura Renge was deemed to be an untouchable combo attack...
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...Such an attack that is supposed to be the answer in defeating Neji by none other then both combatants sensei; someone who I'd expect to know both their capabilities. Now, I'm going to explain why this technique is in fact untouchable even for Nejis standards.
First, allow me to explain to you now the Kaiten works.
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Demonstrated
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.
Then...
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Demonstrated
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.
Neji was able to contest with Narutos chakra shroud speed [
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] but he wasn't fast enough to complete the spin necessary to fully activate his kaiten [
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] resulting in [
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] where both Neji and Naruto felt the full force rather then it being deflected in Narutos face.
[Now, this is where Lee's deemed untouchable combo comes into play]
As I just explained, the Kaiten isn't capable of being used to it's full potential by simply just matching someones speed. Thus entailing that Neji needs to be faster then his opponent in order to successfully use it. So with that being said, how is Neji going to cope with someone who he can't even match in speed? That someone being a 5th gated Rock Lee, who has the capability to pull off untouchable combos. He simply can't. Thus making this an inadequate counter, as Neji can't even use it in time to defend himself; hence why Gai explains how the answer in defeating Neji is a high speed untouchable combo.
Addressing your second method:
Realistically, Neji should of been dead there. It was simply plot that miraculously stopped the bleeding from having two holes the size of tennis balls through his torso. But what I find funny is; shortly before that, Neji was KO'd by a mere punch from base Naruto [
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] where he was incapable of moving his entire body [
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]. But whats even more funnier is, Neji is going to be hit in a very similar fashion when Lee initiates the Ura Renge [
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] Only I'd imagine x20 harder. Of course I'm not saying that this hit alone is going to end Neji [As it took enduring the full blunt force of clashing with chakra shroud Naruto with his Kaiten, then base Naruto directly punching him right after to put him down for the count] but to say Neji is going to just tank this with no repercussion as you claim is utterly ridiculous. Realistically, it should shatter his entire jaw.
Then you claim that the full body blow will just repel 5th gated Lee away likes it's nothing and boom the technique is over with? Dawg.... SMH.
First, let's examine the amount of force that the full body blow is able to exert;
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And let's compare to the amount of force a 4th & 5th gated Lee is able to exert;
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It's really not even funny how puny and insignificant the latter makes the former look. The two colliding would result in Neji being jolted backwards even faster then he originally would according to physics. And if real world logic doesn't apply here, then regardless, the Jūkenpō Ichigekishin doesn't stop Lee from picking up on Ura Renge where he was repelled away. Lee would be way too fast for Neji to use this technique consecutively.
In conclusion; Ura Renge ends it just like it would of back in part one if they crossed paths within the chunin exams. Also, on a side note this is also assuming that Rock Lee is incapable of opening a single additional gate then his 3 year younger self. The boi is really overdue for a power up...
Shortly after the chunin exams, Neji finally acknowledged Lee as his rival. He no longer views himself or his gentle fist to be superior to that of Lee and his iron fist style; but more or less like equals. So this point really doesn't hold any significance as to whom is really stronger.
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There really isn't much to say here, tbh. Assuming you aren't considering Lee's drunken fist style [Which would undoubtedly pose as a problem for Neji], the simple fact of the matter is that base Lee can't really contend with Neji, and I believe Lee understands that. So there isn't much, if anything to dispute here; as I don't believe Lee would spend anytime trying to out-combat Neji while in base, given all his failed attempts in a sparring match where he was restricted from going all out.
Also, before I move on, the Omoto Renge requires Lee to open the first inner gate.
I don't know if you're confusing the hachimon [Eight Inner Gates] with Ura Renge [Reverse Lotus]....but, Rock Lee didn't learn the Hachimon to defeat Neji. It was Ura Renge that Lee had developed and saved for the time he had to fight Neji in order to defeat him.
It's pretty unfortunate for Lee that Neji witnessed him using the Ura Renge, but it doesn't necessarily mean Neji has the means to counter it. Certainly not with the counters you provided, anyways.
Addressing your first method:
The Ura Renge was deemed to be an untouchable combo attack...
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...Such an attack that is supposed to be the answer in defeating Neji by none other then both combatants sensei; someone who I'd expect to know both their capabilities. Now, I'm going to explain why this technique is in fact untouchable even for Nejis standards.
First, allow me to explain to you now the Kaiten works.
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Demonstrated
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.
Then...
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Demonstrated
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.
Neji was able to contest with Narutos chakra shroud speed [
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] but he wasn't fast enough to complete the spin necessary to fully activate his kaiten [
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] resulting in [
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] where both Neji and Naruto felt the full force rather then it being deflected in Narutos face.
[Now, this is where Lee's deemed untouchable combo comes into play]
As I just explained, the Kaiten isn't capable of being used to it's full potential by simply just matching someones speed. Thus entailing that Neji needs to be faster then his opponent in order to successfully use it. So with that being said, how is Neji going to cope with someone who he can't even match in speed? That someone being a 5th gated Rock Lee, who has the capability to pull off untouchable combos. He simply can't. Thus making this an inadequate counter, as Neji can't even use it in time to defend himself; hence why Gai explains how the answer in defeating Neji is a high speed untouchable combo.
Addressing your second method:
Realistically, Neji should of been dead there. It was simply plot that miraculously stopped the bleeding from having two holes the size of tennis balls through his torso. But what I find funny is; shortly before that, Neji was KO'd by a mere punch from base Naruto [
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] where he was incapable of moving his entire body [
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]. But whats even more funnier is, Neji is going to be hit in a very similar fashion when Lee initiates the Ura Renge [
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] Only I'd imagine x20 harder. Of course I'm not saying that this hit alone is going to end Neji [As it took enduring the full blunt force of clashing with chakra shroud Naruto with his Kaiten, then base Naruto directly punching him right after to put him down for the count] but to say Neji is going to just tank this with no repercussion as you claim is utterly ridiculous. Realistically, it should shatter his entire jaw.
Then you claim that the full body blow will just repel 5th gated Lee away likes it's nothing and boom the technique is over with? Dawg.... SMH.
First, let's examine the amount of force that the full body blow is able to exert;
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And let's compare to the amount of force a 4th & 5th gated Lee is able to exert;
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It's really not even funny how puny and insignificant the latter makes the former look. The two colliding would result in Neji being jolted backwards even faster then he originally would according to physics. And if real world logic doesn't apply here, then regardless, the Jūkenpō Ichigekishin doesn't stop Lee from picking up on Ura Renge where he was repelled away. Lee would be way too fast for Neji to use this technique consecutively.
In conclusion; Ura Renge ends it just like it would of back in part one if they crossed paths within the chunin exams. Also, on a side note this is also assuming that Rock Lee is incapable of opening a single additional gate then his 3 year younger self. The boi is really overdue for a power up...
My turn to say something for a bit. You do Realize that When neji exerts Chakra from his body (full body blow) It is Accurately Exerted with any amount he chooses to release.
This is only Part of my point so remember it..
Next we have The Ability to see objects in "Stopped" time purse.
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With the ability to see things as if Time it self has stopped, allows the Byakugan (or elite hyugas) to plan for any situation before it happens or right when it is about to happen. He then can use His chakra to defend or help inflick damage. And remember everything is done accurately so even at last moments/sec's he can save himself or defend himself.
And with the "Chakra Aura" Tech he will always be ahead of his Opponent no matter how fast they are. Why? Because of teh ability to alter anything with in it's aura he can make a would be deadly hit or Ahead combo become off track and could allow a counter attack.
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Now with that being said,Lee knows better then anyone that it would have to be a hit and move strategy against neji; anything else will result in a loss. SO it will be hard to really gauge how the fight would go with Neji's defense having so many outs. Overall Gates will not be enough to defeat neji in the basic sense, it would have to be a strategic way if he plans on winning since neji has seen it and knows what to expect.
My turn to say something for a bit. You do Realize that When neji exerts Chakra from his body (full body blow) It is Accurately Exerted with any amount he chooses to release.
This is only Part of my point so remember it..
Next we have The Ability to see objects in "Stopped" time purse.
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With the ability to see things as if Time it self has stopped, allows the Byakugan (or elite hyugas) to plan for any situation before it happens or right when it is about to happen. He then can use His chakra to defend or help inflick damage. And remember everything is done accurately so even at last moments/sec's he can save himself or defend himself.
And with the "Chakra Aura" Tech he will always be ahead of his Opponent no matter how fast they are. Why? Because of teh ability to alter anything with in it's aura he can make a would be deadly hit or Ahead combo become off track and could allow a counter attack.
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Now with that being said,Lee knows better then anyone that it would have to be a hit and move strategy against neji; anything else will result in a loss. SO it will be hard to really gauge how the fight would go with Neji's defense having so many outs. Overall Gates will not be enough to defeat neji in the basic sense, it would have to be a strategic way if he plans on winning since neji has seen it and knows what to expect.
Doesn't even really make a difference. At the sheer speed and velocity that Lee would be traveling in... if he were to collide with a stand still and motionless Neji while using the full body blow; the impact force would repel Neji a lot more then it does Lee, IF it would even repel Lee at all for that matter. For example, say Person A is charging at Person B. Person B is standing still but is prepared for impact. Right before Person A and B collide, they both lower their shoulders and thrust forward. Who is going to win? Person A, of course, because of the momentum he is carrying with him while accelerating [Assuming Person A and B are around the same size and weight]. Same principle applies here. The OP just thinks that the full body blow is going to repel away a 5th gated accelerated Lee and that's the end of it, which is quite fallacious.
Please elaborate on that time stop purse thing, as I don't see anything in that scan nor the anime that suggests this. I actually thought it was Neji extending his 360 degree vision, because I didn't think he would need to "stop time" just to deflect away a kunai. Anyways, the same thing can be said about Lee. At the speed he is traveling/moving while in gates, things appear much slower then they really are; evident by Haku stating that Naruto and Sasuke are moving in slow motion from her point of view [
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]
Neji was able to to deflect the trajectory of an arrow by only
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. Again, it was an arrow, not a much larger and heavier body mass. Huge difference. Also, the arrow depended upon pin-point accuracy to take out a vital organ; where as Lee's punches/kicks don't necessarily need such pin-point accuracy as it's aim is to injure the body and break bones. So deflecting Lee's punch/kick trajectory by mere centimeters doesn't make much of a difference.
You're absolutely right about that. And that is precisely what Ura Renge entails; untouchable
Fastrthnwind seemed to pick the side of political correctness, i was thinking to not taking sides as well but i can debate for Lee; you covered most anyway.
Doesn't even really make a difference. At the sheer speed and velocity that Lee would be traveling in... if he were to collide with a stand still and motionless Neji while using the full body blow; the impact force would repel Neji a lot more then it does Lee, IF it would even repel Lee at all for that matter. For example, say Person A is charging at Person B. Person B is standing still but is prepared for impact. Right before Person A and B collide, they both lower their shoulders and thrust forward. Who is going to win? Person A, of course, because of the momentum he is carrying with him while accelerating. Same principle applies here. The OP just thinks that the full body blow is going to repel away a 5th gated accelerated Lee and that's the end of it, which is quite fallacious.
Please elaborate on that time stop purse thing, as I don't see anything in that scan nor the anime that suggests this. I actually thought it was Neji extending his 360 degree vision, because I didn't think he would need to "stop time" just to deflect away a kunai. Anyways, the same thing can be said about Lee. At the speed he is traveling/moving while in gates, things appear much slower then they really are; evident by Haku stating that Naruto and Sasuke are moving in slow motion from her point of view [
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]
Neji was able to to deflect the trajectory of an arrow by only
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. Again, it was an arrow, not a much larger and heavier body mass. Huge difference. Also, the arrow depended upon pin-point accuracy to take out a vital organ; where as Lee's punches/kicks don't necessarily need such pin-point accuracy as it's aim is to injure the body and break bones. So deflecting Lee's punch/kick trajectory by mere centimeters doesn't make much of a difference.
You're absolutely right about that. And that is precisely what Ura Renge entails; untouchable
But Lee will still be hitting the chakra expelled at however fast he is moving so he will be getting hit by the chakra at a velocity equal to his speed plus the rate at which the chakra is being expelled. The overall momentum might be in Lees favor so the impact force will be transfered to Neji, but the chakra will cause the impact force from the collision to be lessed significantly and even hurt Lee slightly because he wont see it coming.
Its not stopping time exactly, but displaying Nejis perception as he is avoiding attacks, which is much greater then most people due to his reflexes and reaction time being very high. He could see all projectiles being launched at him, and use his spatial and distance relation ability to judge how fast each of them are moving, theirtrajectory, and move accordingly so that he could avoid nearly every single thing thrown at him. It is the greatest feat in the manga that it involves dodging multiple high speed projectiles objects from everywhere at once at the same.
Lee on the other hand is constantly moving at high speed, and because of this will experience tunnel vision like everyone else without the sharingan. It may not be as severe as others since Lee is far more used to moving at high speeds compared to other people and as such has better reaction and reflexes, but his vision will still not be as clear as it would be if he were standing still, so he might perceive everything as being slower, but the edges of his vision will not be totally clear.
This arow that you are referring to was controlled by a specific individual so that it had a 120% accuracy chance, a drilled tip, and had enough power and force to completely blow through several trees after being launched out of nejis visual range of 50 meters, through Neji, and create a crater at the point it touched the ground. And Neji deflected it from missing its mark by 15 centimeters by using his chakra alone. The difference is that Neji will be able to see Lee at least when compared the arrow that was intentionally launched into his blindspot so Neji could make an effort to defend himself using his incredible reaction time and reflexes.
Again, im TOTALLY NEUTRAL in this. Im just pointing out why his arguement fails to conclude how Lee would beat Neji. Not saying Neji would win. Ill argue against Neji if the opposing arguements fails to represent how Neji would supposedly beat Lee.
Fastrthnwind seemed to pick the side of political correctness, i was thinking to not taking sides as well but i can debate for Lee; you covered most anyway.
Yeah, but you already knew he was going to back Neji up regardless and try to remain neutral. You should do the same, lol. I ain't tryna debate all 3 of these niggas at once.
@ Fastr, I'll get @ you tomorrow, most likely. Got homework to do right now.
Yeah, I heard it; but who hasn't dissed Kendrick at this point, lol. He ain't feeling no heat by it anyways.
Yeah, but you already knew he was going to back Neji up regardless and try to remain neutral. You should do the same, lol. I ain't tryna debate all 3 of these niggas at once.
@ Fastr, I'll get @ you tomorrow, most likely. Got homework to do right now.
Doesn't even really make a difference. At the sheer speed and velocity that Lee would be traveling in... if he were to collide with a stand still and motionless Neji while using the full body blow; the impact force would repel Neji a lot more then it does Lee, IF it would even repel Lee at all for that matter. For example, say Person A is charging at Person B. Person B is standing still but is prepared for impact. Right before Person A and B collide, they both lower their shoulders and thrust forward. Who is going to win? Person A, of course, because of the momentum he is carrying with him while accelerating [Assuming Person A and B are around the same size and weight]. Same principle applies here. The OP just thinks that the full body blow is going to repel away a 5th gated accelerated Lee and that's the end of it, which is quite fallacious.
Please elaborate on that time stop purse thing, as I don't see anything in that scan nor the anime that suggests this. I actually thought it was Neji extending his 360 degree vision, because I didn't think he would need to "stop time" just to deflect away a kunai. Anyways, the same thing can be said about Lee. At the speed he is traveling/moving while in gates, things appear much slower then they really are; evident by Haku stating that Naruto and Sasuke are moving in slow motion from her point of view [
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]
Neji was able to to deflect the trajectory of an arrow by only
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. Again, it was an arrow, not a much larger and heavier body mass. Huge difference. Also, the arrow depended upon pin-point accuracy to take out a vital organ; where as Lee's punches/kicks don't necessarily need such pin-point accuracy as it's aim is to injure the body and break bones. So deflecting Lee's punch/kick trajectory by mere centimeters doesn't make much of a difference.
You're absolutely right about that. And that is precisely what Ura Renge entails; untouchable
What i Mean by seeing things in "Stopped time" is that when he chooses he can instantly see everything as if things were going super slow motion or in its current spot in real time (as in Not moving so its like taking a Picture and looking at the picture that fast). Now with that being said he plans and can counter anything accordingly with in reason. No matter how Lee moves, Neji will always know where he is and what he will attempt!
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As you can see the sharingan and Byakugan was able to keep track of everything that was going on, only difference between the sharingan and Byakugan is that... Topic for another day. The Byakugan was even able to track Naruto's high speed moves and even match his speed and power
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. Point is no matter how Fast Lee may be, Neji will Detect every movement no matter if he can stop them or not.
And You misinterpret What Neji and the hyuga's can achieve with there chakras. With the ability to unleash damn near any amount of chakra, they can alter or control anything with in reason. In the case of High speed Rock lee/Guy he can use Pure chakra Alone to Alter a certain punch that would hit his Shoulder that would then miss because his chakra altered his intended target (shoulder in this case). I wish Knew how to make examples Like Bogard does. SMH
And with Every missed/altered Punch Neji can counter Attack. And with One touch Lee can Arguably Die.. Why die you ask? Because With his chakra gates opened and out control one touch could make his Chakra Implode or Cause Major Damage too lee. Or Simply One touch to his arm/Leg can Cause his Muscles rip or snap or worse.
On top of Neji detecting Every would be move, He will also keep track of the Chakra gates and his muscles in his body to know when or where to attack.
If you still don't Get what his chakra can do, Picture A Arrow about to be shot to a Bull's Eye Board on a Tree out side. The tree is Neji, the Arrow is an attack from who ever (Lee, guy, Aye). The arrow is Shot... (Keep in mind It will/was suppose to be a perfect Shot in the middle).. But at the Last second a Large gust of wind Blows at the side of the arrow, thus changing the would be perfect shot off its intended target to miss the board completely. The wind is the Chakra, the tree is Neji, the Arrow is Lee. Basically he can do that Every single time any time he chooses! This combined with there Byakugan makes them one of the most deadliest Taijutsu users ever shown in the manga.
SO to break it down to the other users reading this:
1. Neji has already been shown to keep track of Gate lee's Speed (seen with Kakashi)
2. Neji can alter anything physical with Chakra alone and giving moment.
3. Neji will or can Use chakra to sway would be combo's from lee off its Intended target and Maybe Counter Attack.
The only Problem Is lee Knowing Most of Neji's secrets and will most likely Do a Differ Approach since he cannot Use the Surprise Factor Anymore (which wouldn't have Been 100% to begin with anyway).
P.s. in Part 2 Lee can Go Auto Gates with out Using Primary Lotus as a start up By the way. SO it would Be in his Best Interest to go Gates and Try to end it Quick.
If Lee were to Take a Risk and Go Gates then Take Medicine.... God help us All! I have a great Idea of what it would be like, That what if (if possible) could defeat neji in the sense that Neji would be overwhelmed.
proof that rock lee is > than neji.
Neji is dead lee is alive
+ lee samasanchez has kurama chakra currently so yeah theres something your novel paragraph posts cant counter
