which the Spiral-Zetsu attributed to Obito's own prowess; also on a larger distance [
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,
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]. He used the same technique later without wearing the Spiral-Zetsu, while connected to the Juubi. So the Jutsu itself comes from Obito.
Now with the experience, knowledge and intelligence he has, he shouldn't fall into rage first to perform such techniques, but would act advisedly. In close combat, such a technique would end deadly for Kakashi, as the range affected even a Shinobi standing behind the first target.
My man i keep telling people this Obito didn't go all out when he fought Kakashi... Thats like Madara losing a fight without using Ps and then i make a thread on why Madara could have won if he went all out... People act as if Obito taijutsu skills are 0 compared to Kakashi... His Mokuton won't be useless either because Kakashi can only use Ration through his hand while Kidgamer act as if his Ration is on Sasuke level or something...
Lol This is not proof, if hashi can use shinsuusenju as an edo then he would've against madara already, therefore he cant. If minato can use kage bunshins while alive then he would've against obito/kurama, he didnt & therefore he cant.
It is proof. Obito used kamui every chance he got. It became an integrated part of his fighting style, to the point where others(konan) figured out the limitations and mechanics behind it. Him not using it all of a sudden isn't because he wont( because he certainly took risks with it in the past and on multiple occasions(minato, konan, kakashi)) but because he cant. Heck He didn't even do the kamui warp fire ball even though given its range kakashi wouldn't be able to block it. He had to use a regular fireball.
See, you have terribly flawed logic in this regard, while I have a logical explanation as to why obito couldn't go intangible. If this is your form of proof then lol minato doesnt have the chakra capacity to summon kage bunshins while alive, for all we know he may even need KCM for them. XD
That happened wayy before their physical fight started considering that when they were finished edo kages already restrained the juubi and naruto and co were fighting juubi clones.
That was what happened as soon as those two entered the kamui dimension, lmao! If obito had gone intangible at that moment then he would've been roasted due to the blast. Laughable that you would even bring this up. Perhaps obito thought that kakashi was simply out of stamina, maybe obito wasn't expecting kakashi to kill him. You don't know, so stop jumping to conclusions u_u
Glad you left it bold for me considering that their fight started a considerable amount of time after they entered kamui land. After all the genjutsu tricks and tnj obito tried to pull( all failed btw) then their actual fight started. Well after the juubi nuke.
fail proof come again.
Only without kamui, only without kamui does kakashi even stand a ghost of a chance. Remove obito's mangekyou/summons & then & only then is the fight in his favor, but funny thing is that you need to remove obito's three best jutsus in order for kakashi to hold his own. They are nowhere near even, maybe in practical skill kakashi wins but other than that? lol...
No you didn't, the absence if evidence is not the evidence of absence, get this logic out of my face & learn what actual debating is.
It is proof. Obito used kamui every chance he got. It became an integrated part of his fighting style, to the point where others(konan) figured out the limitations and mechanics behind it. Him not using it all of a sudden isn't because he wont( because he certainly took risks with it in the past and on multiple occasions(minato, konan, kakashi)) but because he cant. Heck He didn't even do the kamui warp fire ball even though given its range kakashi wouldn't be able to block it. He had to use a regular fireball.
Lol, So what if he used it during every chance he got? That still doesn't prove that kamui land restricts intangibility, this is merely something that you fantasized. Otherwise going by this same logic obito cant use kamui at all inside of his dimension, well then how on earth does he leave genius?
All of this is your pathetic excuse to try & claim something to be false when you have no evidence regarding the matter. don't respond to me again until you have proof which states that obito cant go intangible while in kamui, otherwise I can say that he simply chose not to use kamui due to the outside threat, what do you have to prove me wrong? Absolutely nothing, now please continue to make me laugh.
Go read bogard's thread on how shadow clone works before posting nonsense-_-
No because that's not my point, that doesn't matter. Your logic suggests that I can easily say minato just lacked the skill in order to create proper clones before. You cant prove me wrong with a specific statement so too bad. I'm turning your sh*tty logic against you. Minato hasn't shown clones while alive & so he cant use them, lol. You wanna explain why he can? Oh well I wont believe you, just as you don't believe my explanation. Simple because just as you suggest, if he hasn't shown it then he doesn't have it. Now bye bye..
That happened wayy before their physical fight started considering that when they were finished edo kages already restrained the juubi and naruto and co were fighting juubi clones.
Juubi immediatly uses his attack here, which goes on after the chapter is done
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This means that as soon as they warped the juubi used his attack, now look at this
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Obito getting knocked back, with intangibility he could've easily phased through the ground, thereby avoiding kakashi. Therefore if you use logic (which you don't seem to have u_u) Then its obvious that the juubi's attack was activated during obito falling.
& that's only one example, obito & kakashi were fighting in a battlefield littered with shinobi, any stray attack could kill obito if he's not careful.
Glad you left it bold for me considering that their fight started a considerable amount of time after they entered kamui land. After all the genjutsu tricks and tnj obito tried to pull( all failed btw) then their actual fight started. Well after the juubi nuke.
fail proof come again.
Proved this weak garbage wrong. Obito could've phased when getting knocked back, & this happened during the juubi's attack. So please don't call my proof failed when it clearly isn't, otherwise you just look like you have no idea what you're talking about.
hey man im just answering the op. Keep your personal feelings out of this.
You must really be a moron if you think kakashi can defeat obito with his three best jutsus, THAT is obito's "truest" way, shape & form. Therefore you are wrong. You were the one who said that obito loses, well that's simply due to his massive disadvantage, so don't say that there's anything "true" about how kamui-less obito fights, because obito relies on kamui to fight.
last time obito couldnt warp back to our world because the alliance was there, and OP never states that obito cant simply leave the dimension then summon mazo. that or he sucks kakashi up and BFRS him that way.
also obi didnt really fight to his full potential in 636. he has huge katons, and those rinnegan chains. he can wrap kakashi up in chains then burn him to nothing.
and yet in the real world kakashi could hardly even put up a fight. and this fight need not stay in kamui dimension. obito can warp him with a touch. end of battle
. Once Kakashi has forced him into CQC he rapes him like he did in manga canon.
THE WAR OUTSIDE was a distraction. it disabled obitos use of kamui warping to win because rewarping kakashi back to the battlefield was a bad thing for madara and juubi, obitos allies. and obito had a reason to hold back because he was low on fukin chakra. compare his katons in that fight to the katon from before.
oh yeah and thats a good use of chkara. making a huge wall for something that the likes of obito can keep on spamming.
dodge how? obitos katon was AS BIG AS THE JUUBI
and chakra spikes get the same treatment as fire balls.
what are you talking about? if he kamui'd kakashi, where does kakashi go? oh right back to where madara and juubi are. thats a waste of time and chakra and would achieve nothing. thus obito didnt go that route. but he can here. kakashi has no way to get insdie the dimension on his own. thus once hes warped away the fight is over.
He knew kakashi was in kamui land( he himself put him there) and still went intangible when fighting naruto.
im not using it all of a sudden isn't because he wont( because he certainly took risks with it in the past and on multiple occasions(minato, konan, kakashi)) but because he cant.
but he did. he did use it. to leave the dimension after being mortally hurt. kamui is not all phasing through attacks. the warping is a powerful aspect of it.
Heck He didn't even do the kamui warp fire ball even though given its range kakashi wouldn't be able to block it. He had to use a regular fireball.
why would it be useless? it restrains the opponent and wraps them up in an ironlike substance. mokuton is beyond tough and not just some random tree that breaks in half when its lightly tapped. it took BM naruto to break it and he didnt do it immediately. my god its like "oh its weak compared to gods therefore its useless vs a high tier kage level." thats the kind of bullshit being spouted here.
I assume Kakashi, Obito has no taijutsu skill, and he isn't known for his speed.
obito reacted multiple times to BM naruto and outclassed kakashi in their first actual taijutsu bout and cut his chest up (however obito was using intang in that clash). the only reason he hit him the second fight was obito seeing kamui use as pointless since itd just send kakashi back to the war. pre juubi obito is easily one of teh fastest beings in narutoverse
Go look up the Hiding like a mole Jutsu. It lets you burrow into the ground by infusing it with chakra.
while obito was gimped from using giant katons/mokuton/chakra chains/barrier. i forgot to mention the giant barrier he used on gedo mazo and burnt hacibis hand. that alone > kakashi
Why wouldn't he use it here? he took risks with it.He used kamui when he knew damn well kakashi figured it out and that kakashi is in there anticapating his body parts to arrive. So him using it to phase a kick that would go through his body in less than a second would make sense since no one other than kakashi,bee,naruto, and guy knows how it works, and no one in the SA is anticipating body parts to pop up randomly in front of them for what less than a second?
That still doesn't prove that kamui land restricts intangibility, this is merely something that you fantasized. Otherwise going by this same logic obito cant use kamui at all inside of his dimension, well then how on earth does he leave genius?
you of all people should know him entering and leaving is different than him phasing himself and
other things/people.
If it was one and the same he wouldn't need to become tangible in order to warp and keep himself there. He could just phase into a rock just like you said. But alas he can't do this(maintain it) and has to warp himself there. That alone proves that the two are different. Coupled with the fact that kakashi can do that aspect of the technique as well.
But let me ask you this: Why didn't he warp the giant shurikens or stakes to attack kakashi like he did in the real world? Surely they were just sitting out there like in the reverse situation when he did it they were just sitting in here(kamuiland)
All of this is your pathetic excuse to try & claim something to be false when you have no evidence regarding the matter. don't respond to me again until you have proof which states that obito cant go intangible while in kamui, otherwise I can say that he simply chose not to use kamui due to the outside threat, what do you have to prove me wrong? Absolutely nothing, now please continue to make me laugh.
If he could use kamui in the same way, manner and form in both dimensions then there would be no reason for him to force himself to touch his opponents in the real world. Just like how he warps things out of kamui land regardless of their location into the real world(people, shuriken, etc) he should be able to warp things out of the real world regardless of their location form inside of kamui land.
Him forcing himself to touch tortune and fuu to put them in kamui land:
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If it works the way you say it does then when it comes to warping people in all he should have to do is warp himself to kamui land and then bring them there like via his eye.
Just like how he brings fuu and tortune from kamui land into the real world via his eye:
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This alone proves he cant use every aspect of kamui in kamui land and it explains why he didn't bring out the giant shurikens in kamui land and didn't use bufaku ranbuu in kamui lands...He can't
No because that's not my point, that doesn't matter. Your logic suggests that I can easily say minato just lacked the skill in order to create proper clones before.
If this is your form of proof then lol minato doesnt have the chakra capacity to summon kage bunshins while alive, for all we know he may even need KCM for them. XD
That makes no sense because shadow clone isn't dependent on chakra reserves. It splits ones chakra evenly no matter how much chakra they have. One can have 10% of their chakra left and when he makes a clone the jutsu still won't fail. Instead both the user and the clone will have 5% chakra. Thats why people like old hirzen, warn out kakashi and kiba can make shadow clones even if they are nearly out of chakra. One doesn't need to be a chakra monster to use the tech.
And if it was your edo argument edo's (unless altered) don't gain new skills and abilities.
You cant prove me wrong with a specific statement so too bad. I'm turning your sh*tty logic against you. Minato hasn't shown clones while alive & so he cant use them, lol. You wanna explain why he can? Oh well I wont believe you, just as you don't believe my explanation. Simple because just as you suggest, if he hasn't shown it then he doesn't have it. Now bye bye..
Juubi immediatly uses his attack here, which goes on after the chapter is done
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This means that as soon as they warped the juubi used his attack, now look at this
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Obito getting knocked back, with intangibility he could've easily phased through the ground, thereby avoiding kakashi. Therefore if you use logic (which you don't seem to have u_u) Then its obvious that the juubi's attack was activated during obito falling.
Avoided kakashi? kakashi didn't hit him... he stopped short and they talked.
Their actual fight starts after naruto and sasuke do the enton-cho-oddama-rasenshuriken. Everything before that is 1 genjustu
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You know its the same genjutsu because the hole kakashi put in obito's chest from the very beginning is still there
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that's only one example, obito & kakashi were fighting in a battlefield littered with shinobi, any stray attack could kill obito if he's not careful.
yet when he warped himself out completely no stray attacks touched him.They didn't even realize he was there(except marada for obvious reasons and minato for.. again obvious reasons) until he started screaming.
[/QUOTE] Proved this weak garbage wrong. Obito could've phased when getting knocked back, & this happened during the juubi's attack. So please don't call my proof failed when it clearly isn't, otherwise you just look like you have no idea what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
Read above.
No you aren't, the below quote is why I posted that last bit..
That's not the truest way shape and form of soloing though....
Therefore you are wrong. You were the one who said that obito loses, well that's simply due to his massive disadvantage, so don't say that there's anything "true" about how kamui-less obito fights, because obito relies on kamui to fight.
why are we arguing over manga cannon? cmon guy. It was a one on one fight. Both had the same kamui restriction. Both were going for the kill. No one distracted them. They even made the sign for shinobi kumite. Kakashi solo'd because
a) he got 0 help in defeating obito
b) he did it without too much if any effort
yet obito was not only using nothing like he was doing before (barriers, chains, katon). but yes people were distracting them. the entire war below them. obito can win in 2 seconds with warping but warping kakashi to the battlefiedl wouldnt achieve anything
Why wouldn't he use it here? he took risks with it.He used kamui when he knew damn well kakashi figured it out and that kakashi is in there anticapating his body parts to arrive. So him using it to phase a kick that would go through his body in less than a second would make sense since no one other than kakashi,bee,naruto, and guy knows how it works, and no one in the SA is anticipating body parts to pop up randomly in front of them for what less than a second?
Okay why is madara rumored to have amaterasu & tsukuyomi despite no evidence showing him do so? People still think he can do it based on the fact that he "should" be able to. It doesnt matter if obito "should" have been able to kamui, he didnt.
& as for the SA not knowing about the kamui body parts, it only takes one stray attack to hurt him, even phasing once for a second could mean death & the more he does it the greater that chance becomes. So as I said, just because he didnt do it doesnt mean he cant. That is not adequate enough proof.
you of all people should know him entering and leaving is different than him phasing himself and
other things/people.
If it was one and the same he wouldn't need to become tangible in order to warp and keep himself there. He could just phase into a rock just like you said. But alas he can't do this(maintain it) and has to warp himself there. That alone proves that the two are different. Coupled with the fact that kakashi can do that aspect of the technique as well.
It doesnt matter if they have different functions, they are the same jutsu. Not being able to go intangible means that he cant warp either, because they both use the kamui ability which is the mangekyou technique he possesses. If he can't kamui then he cant kamui, why would part of his ability be restricted, lol that makes no sense just because he hasnt shown it.
But let me ask you this: Why didn't he warp the giant shurikens or stakes to attack kakashi like he did in the real world? Surely they were just sitting out there like in the reverse situation when he did it they were just sitting in here(kamuiland)
Because he had no access to them. In the real world he can move near instantly by teleporting to his dimension & reappearing in another location. If this is the case then he can simply do the same with the weapons that he uses.
Maybe he didnt do it to kakashi because he was low on chakra? Maybe he wanted to fight kakashi with no kamui (he was being overconfident). Point is that you cant jump to conclusions just because he didnt show it, there could me a multitude of reasons as to why he didnt use all of his abilities.
Obito said he has human path, why didnt he attempt use that to seal kakashi's soul? Instead he went for chakra steaks.
If he could use kamui in the same way, manner and form in both dimensions then there would be no reason for him to force himself to touch his opponents in the real world. Just like how he warps things out of kamui land regardless of their location into the real world(people, shuriken, etc) he should be able to warp things out of the real world regardless of their location form inside of kamui land.
Him forcing himself to touch tortune and fuu to put them in kamui land:
He warps himself out of the real world regardless of his location, that's why he can move at lightspeed....His ability to materialize objects is logically the same as his teleportation ability.
Oh my goodness now I see where you're going with this, jeez. You're confusing obito's kamui restriction with his actual ability. Well then let me explain how obito's ability works. Obito's kamui & kakashi's kamui are polar opposites, from what we've seen obito can go intangible & warp objects from the real world to kamui land by touching them, however he can bring them back without touching them. Now kakashi can send people to the kamui dimension without touching them (opposite of obito), but can he bring people back the same way as obito can? Can kakashi even warp someone without touching them in the kamui dimension?
Either way you see the point. Kakashi's kamui & obito's kamui are different, you're taking obito's potential kamui restriction & using it to say that he cant go intangible in his dimension. Well how do you know if obito needs to only touch them in the real world? It could be completely different from within the kamui dimension.
The only thing that you proved here is that obito doesnt need to touch an object in order to bring it from kamui land, kakashi doesnt need to touch it in order to send it there, so that makes sense considering what the opposite eyes do, this has nothing to do with obito's intangibility or the ability to warp from his dimension though.
If it works the way you say it does then when it comes to warping people in all he should have to do is warp himself to kamui land and then bring them there like via his eye.
Just like how he brings fuu and tortune from kamui land into the real world via his eye:
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This alone proves he cant use every aspect of kamui in kamui land and it explains why he didn't bring out the giant shurikens in kamui land and didn't use bufaku ranbuu in kamui lands...He can't
As I said above, you're taking obito's restriction & using it as a basis for your argument, well all this proves is that obito's kamui is restricted to touching in the real world. In fact I could turn this around on you & say that obito is even less restricted in the kamui dimension because he doesnt need to touch his opponent. So why would this then prove that he can't go intangible? It wouldnt, obito has to touch the object he wants to warp to kamui land, proves nothing.
Lol no u suggested that minato lacked the chakra reserves
So what? point still stands, he hasnt shown it so he can't do it.
That makes no sense because shadow clone isn't dependent on chakra reserves. It splits ones chakra evenly no matter how much chakra they have. One can have 10% of their chakra left and when he makes a clone the jutsu still won't fail. Instead both the user and the clone will have 5% chakra. Thats why people like old hirzen, warn out kakashi and kiba can make shadow clones even if they are nearly out of chakra. One doesn't need to be a chakra monster to use the tech.
Thats a fancy explanation & all but as I said earlier explain all you want, I wont believe you...
Minato hasnt shown it so he doesnt have it/can't do it, you're playing the ignorant game with me so I can do the same, even the fact that you dont consider my idea a possibility is the whole reason why I'm doing this. Show me minato using clones while alive then you have proof, otherwise sorry but it aint gonna fly here.
You may think that you can pull the wool over my eyes but no, try using the absence of evidence argument on me & then fall victim to it yourself? Funny guy.
And if it was your edo argument edo's (unless altered) don't gain new skills and abilities.
No, the argument is absence of evidence, we haven't seen what altered minato can do while alive so saying he can create clones based on his dead/BM feats is absence of evidence for him while alive. Minato while altered created clones, while unaltered he hasnt, therefore he cant. This is your logic & even if you have an explanation that makes sense (as I did) you will still deny. Well that's not how it works, its your opinion that he can't use intangibility but evidence is surely lacking no matter how you slice it. (This obviously isnt how I feel, it is simply your logic...)
You have provided nothing other than the absence of evidence & obito's kamui restriction. This is not adequate enough to discredit the other facts laid out. One being obito's pride at that moment, another being his obviously dwindling chakra reserves, & also the intense fighting happening currently in the real world. We can assume what we want either way but you "confirming" that obito cant go intangible based on what you've provided is as I always say, laughable.
Avoided kakashi? kakashi didn't hit him... he stopped short and they talked.
Yes he could've phased underground, he wasnt expecting kakashi to stop, I didnt mean for obito to go intangible during kakashi's attack, I meant going intangible during his fall. He could've escaped easily there.
Their actual fight starts after naruto and sasuke do the enton-cho-oddama-rasenshuriken. Everything before that is 1 genjustu
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You know its the same genjutsu because the hole kakashi put in obito's chest from the very beginning is still there
& I already know about all of this other baloney, fact of the matter is that obito could've phased underground in anticipation of kakashi's attack, but he didnt. This happened during the juubi's attack & that was my point. I know they were in genjutsu then so no need to point out the obvious..
yet when he warped himself out completely no stray attacks touched him.They didn't even realize he was there(except marada for obvious reasons and minato for.. again obvious reasons) until he started screaming.
That was obvious luck/plot, & anyways that was his only time appearing after they warped. If he continued phasing after they had gone then pieces would be all over the place, the chance of him getting hit would increase dramatically.
& so restricting obito's kamui makes it a true solo for kakashi?? lmfao, obito isnt half the shinobi he could be without kamui. Saying that kakashi solod him is no better than saying kakashi solod a simple jounin, so what? Is that something to be proud of? Lol
Okay sure gedo/bijuu dont make it a solo, but restricting kamui for obito doesnt make it a solo for kakashi either.
why are we arguing over manga cannon? cmon guy. It was a one on one fight. Both had the same kamui restriction. Both were going for the kill. No one distracted them. They even made the sign for shinobi kumite. Kakashi solo'd because
LOL they did not have the same kamui restriction...This is what I mean by acting like a moron...Dude obito lives off of kamui, its the reason why he's even alive. Kakashi awakened it in his 30s & was doing fine as a shinobi before that...Obito's kamui use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kakashi's so dont go on saying that they had the "same" restriction. They may have had the same ability restricted but that severely underpowered one of them while not doing much of anything to the other.
a) he got 0 help in defeating obito
b) he did it without too much if any effort
Yeah sure its a solo, but who he solod was a 13 year obito as far as im concerned. Obito hasnt arguably engaged in any taijutsu without kamui since he received it, therefore saying that kakashi solod him at his best is (what do I always say?? ) laughable. Lol
Kakashi cant solo obito with kamui, therefore he cant solo obito. He can solo the equivalent to kid obito (no kamui), but that's about as far as he can go before getting fodderized.
How is Kakashi countering Gedo Mazo Size Katon.?? It clearly wasen't a stomp... Also Kakashi had the advantage due to Naruto chakra healing his wounds and restoring his chakra...
kakashi's earth jutsu ,going underground(hiding like a mole ) is perfect counter for obito's fire jutsu
when kakahi fought obito in the other dimension ,he wasn' having kuarma chakra or its healing ability ,we all saw kakahi while he was sewing himself
kakashi wins if both of them are in the other dimension like the manga showed(obito and kakahi with no kamui)
kakashi's earth jutsu ,going underground(hiding like a mole ) is perfect counter for obito's fire jutsu
when kakahi fought obito in the other dimension ,he wasn' having kuarma chakra or its healing ability ,we all saw kakahi while he was sewing himself
kakashi wins if both of them are in the other dimension like the manga showed(obito and kakahi with no kamui)
His base speed isnt fast enough to counter kakashi's. I'm also allowing kakashi the ability to use kamui, without it he loses due to being trapped in uchiha kaenjin.
His base speed isnt fast enough to counter kakashi's. I'm also allowing kakashi the ability to use kamui, without it he loses due to being trapped in uchiha kaenjin.
chakra chains needs kamui to get out it from the other dimension and whatever kakashi can dodge it
kakashi can counter obito's mouktun's level easily by his speed,lighting jutsus and the ability to increase the speed by opening gates
kakashi can counter obito's fire jutsu by going underground ,and yes obito can do it as well but that doesn't mean that would prevent kakashi from doing it ,i don't know what is you point
fire barrier is jutsu which prevent both of enemy and its user from attacking each other,i mean that obito won't be able to attack in this situation too but both of obito and kakashi can go underground to the other side so that the barrier would be useless
