[Discussion] Post TS Sanji vs Pre TS Crocodile

[KGB Kakuzu]

Tempted to say Crocodile.


Endurance wise, he could take a sideline blow with virtually no time to move from Diamond Jozu (who lifted ice large enough for a marine warship to land in) like it was nothing. He also could block a strike from Mihawk. He also stood against Doflamingo and even Akainu.

Crocodile went through all of that without being taken down just like everyone else of notable Merit.

It's easily probable that Crocodile HAS Haki. Recall Mihawk... Simple slashes of his sword are more than enough to wreck warships and he even effortlessly slashed through a man made of blades. To block his strike with the same Hook that Luffy could break in Alabasta... I can't see how Mihawk wouldn't cut through it.

Additionally, he had enough stealth to be able to approach and slice Akainu in half... Also he slices Akainu in half... Something Vista and Marco together didn't do with their Haki imbued slashes.

Plus if you factor experience... Crocodile is a veteran who sailed with rivals like Doflamingo, Mihawk, and the other Shichibukai.

During the war/Impel Down he showed he possessed moves capable of draining water such as Crescent Cutlass and his blades that hit the Executioners. Heck if those aim at Sanji... A Diablo Jambel may even turn them into cutting glass pending temperature.

As it was mentioned, he has the ability to become Sand by reflex. Something that serves as a huge problem against foes. Plus at the end of the day he has a poison hook... Which I don't see Sanji pulling Luffy level will power if it poisons him.


The Crocodile is easily a monster to contend with.

 

[ChillySnow]

Sanji roflstomps no diff. Crocodile lost to a Pre gears/skip luffy. Even if its PIS Post TS Sanji are leagues above pre skip luffy.

 

[Dr Strangelove]

I'm going with Crocodile.
He butted heads with Doffy at MF.

 

[Hijey]

Crocodile is one of the most skilled devil fruit users. It seems that Doflamingo needs to add Haki in order to make his strings cut. Otherwise if they could cut anyway he wouldn't be able to puppet other weaker people.

Logias can still be unaffected by Haki. The three characters we know of that can become their element on reflex (Borsalino, Kuzan and Crocodile) have all shown feats of being unaffected by a Haki based attack. Sakazuki has also shown feats of it without demonstrate reflex-transformation skills. It's not as simple as:

"Haki user wins". That's not how Oda rolls. Logias wouldn't be the strongest DF's if they were fodder against Haki. Crocodile can also absorb moisture from Sanjis legs when he gets kicked.

I still think Sanji would win. But Low difficulty is out of the question. High difficulty is the lowest difficulty that Sanji can win by.

Him benig most skilled devil fruit users does not mean he can't be hit with haki when he doesn't have haki himself, you made that up. Those people are skilled AND have haki to defend themselves against haki. Assuming Doflamingo actually used haki on Crocodile, when he wanted him to make him one of his men, is unresonable. Gearless Luffy was strong enough to defeat Crocodile and MF Luffy that is much stronger than Alabasta Luffy was getting kicked around by people weaker than Doflamingo. Logias aren't fodders against haki users, I don't know where you got that from. It just means they can be attacked. This is not just about 'lol Sanji has haki, so he wins' no. Sanji is physical abilities and his haki is WAY above Crocodile to do anything but stand there to die the second the fight starts.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Him benig most skilled devil fruit users does not mean he can't be hit with haki when he doesn't have haki himself, you made that up.

Uhhhh it's been shown that Logias can become their element and still be unaffected by Haki

Spoiler

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Crocodile > Kuzan and Borsalino at using their logia fruit. Crocodile could easily disperse from attacks. However unlike the admirals because he cannot use Haki he won't be as accurate (in terms of which body parts to disperse) as the admirals.

Those people are skilled AND have haki to defend themselves against haki.

Haki vs Logia regardless of whether they use Haki will make them touchable.

Assuming Doflamingo actually used haki on Crocodile, when he wanted him to make him one of his men, is unresonable.

You really think a thread can cut without the Usage or Haki? Why is it that Doflamingo doesn't chop clouds in half? Because he isn't using Haki and thus the threads require Haki to cut things. Same things goes for being a puppet master.

Gearless Luffy was strong enough to defeat Crocodile and MF Luffy that is much stronger than Alabasta Luffy was getting kicked around by people weaker than Doflamingo.

Crocodile put on a show superior to his Alabasta fights at MF aswell. He showed us new techniques which he didn't show during Alabasta.

Logias aren't fodders against haki users,

They are if they lack the skill of using their fruit. E.g. Caribou. But Crocodile doesn't fit into this catagory.

I don't know where you got that from. It just means they can be attacked.

This is where I got it from:
When Pekoms defeats Caribou : He acknowledges that merely possessing a Logia DF does not make the user invincible, and that anyone who thinks this won't last long in the NW. That's what I meant.

This is not just about 'lol Sanji has haki, so he wins' no. Sanji is physical abilities and his haki is WAY above Crocodile to do anything but stand there to die the second the fight starts.

Crocodile can still do this , have you forgotten?

Spoiler

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AND ALSO

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(FYI he was shot wish Kairouseki. Proof he is capable of avoiding Haki imbued attacks)

Remember he was capable to keep on par with Doflamingo (physically) and Mihawk whom are both physically superior in speed to Sanji.

Spoiler

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He also took on the full brunt of one of Jozu's attacks. Just simply hitting him won't be enough to keep him down in Sanji's case. Even if he uses Hells Memories.

Spoiler

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I still say Sanji wins. BUT by a very slim margin.

 

[ChillySnow]

^You think those feats are impressive? Crocodile is a DF *****. His physical stats are not good, he got beat by Alabasta Luffy(no gears, no haki). Even if it's PIS, Luffy still hurt him.

Vista+Marco attacking Akainu had no effect because Akainu's haki defence was stronger.

 

[Hexuze]

^You think those feats are impressive? Crocodile is a DF *****. His physical stats are not good, he got beat by Alabasta Luffy(no gears, no haki). Even if it's PIS, Luffy still hurt him.

Vista+Marco attacking Akainu had no effect because Akainu's haki defence was stronger.

Yeah but he got a lot better in Marineford and I think Oda did some justice with his character. Everyone had the impression that he's shit cause he got an owned by luffy with no gears/haki before.

and as Rin. mentioned he took a haki fused blow from Jozu and still wanted to fight.

 

[ChillySnow]

Yeah but he got a lot better in Marineford and I think Oda did some justice with his character. Everyone had the impression that he's shit cause he got an owned by luffy with no gears/haki before.

and as Rin. mentioned he took a haki fused blow from Jozu and still wanted to fight.

Yes tanking brilliant punk is pretty good and his endurance got better but I believe he won't be able to keep up with Post TS Sanji.

 

[Hexuze]

Yes tanking brilliant punk is pretty good and his endurance got better but I believe he won't be able to keep up with Post TS Sanji.

Whoops, I thought this was post-TS Croc. as well. My apologies, I misread the title.

Sanji wins on HIGH diff.

 

[ChillySnow]

Uhhhh it's been shown that Logias can become their element and still be unaffected by Haki

When was this said and shown?

Crocodile > Kuzan and Borsalino at using their logia fruit. Crocodile could easily disperse from attacks. However unlike the admirals because he cannot use Haki he won't be as accurate (in terms of which body parts to disperse) as the admirals.

When was this shown?

Crocodile put on a show superior to his Alabasta fights at MF aswell. He showed us new techniques which he didn't show during Alabasta.

Beside tanking Brilliant Punk I didn't see anything special

Remember he was capable to keep on par with Doflamingo (physically) and Mihawk whom are both physically superior in speed to Sanji.

Spoiler

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Doffy and Mihawk did not put in a slight effort

I still say Sanji wins. BUT by a very slim margin.

Sanji is a tier or 2 above Pre TS Croc(subtiers)

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Chillysnow. You're really bad at this.
Try to prove how my post is wrong. Crocodile could keep up with Doflamingo and Mihawk. The manga recently showed Doflamingo playing with Sanji.

 

[Fireplay]

Sanji stomps. Croc got beat by Pre-Gears Luffy lel.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

When was this said and shown?

Spoiler

WB uses Haki to hit Kizaru

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WB uses Haki to hit Aokiji

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Kairouseki net pellet things are fired at Crocodile. Kairouseki would take a similar effect to Busoshoku Haki

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When was this shown?

It's called using logic. He's got an average at best Logia fruit. And he made it into a deadly weapon. He can counter his own devil fruit weakness. Hence he is very skilled at using his fruit. He even said this:

Depending on how you use and train the ability of the Devil Fruit... It can become a strong weapon in battle.

Crocodile specializes in combat abilities using his fruit. He trained himself to become sand on reflex which is shown when he's in his human form and as soon as Doflamingo's thread touches his neck he becomes sand to avoid losing his head

Spoiler

[video=youtube;l5FtYKadnTE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FtYKadnTE[/video]

This is evident as he cannot use Haki and still knew when to disperse into sand.

Beside tanking Brilliant Punk I didn't see anything special

That's the special thing.
Brilliant punk>Gomu Gomu no Thor Elephant Gun>Asura>Hells Memories +Diable Jambe combo. If he can tank BP then he can easily tank most of Sanji's attacks. He won't be easy to beat down.

Doffy and Mihawk did not put in a slight effort

I realize that. But Doffy never did with Sanji either:

Spoiler

Notice the grin , he never grinned when fighting Kuzan until he walked away. He never grinned when Fujitora pulled down a meteor. He only grins when he's fighting people he can beat easily. e.g. Sanji.

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Sanji couldn't keep up. But guess who did?

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Mihawk was easily blitzing G2 Luffy at Marineford. Crocodile was faster than Luffy as he could keep up with Mihawk. Notice the blitzed Luffy. And Crocodile saving him : also looking unbothered by any effort just as much as Mihawk.

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Sanji is a tier or 2 above Pre TS Croc(subtiers)

Provide evidence. Power scale. Pre TS crocodile was roughly equal to Ivankov whom Sanji is roughly equal to. There's no way in hell that Pre TS Crocodile would get stomped. Sanji would win : but high difficulty is the MINIMUM difficulty for victory.

 

[VongolaX]

^You think those feats are impressive? Crocodile is a DF *****. His physical stats are not good, he got beat by Alabasta Luffy(no gears, no haki). Even if it's PIS, Luffy still hurt him.

Vista+Marco attacking Akainu had no effect because Akainu's haki defence was stronger.

Do you wanna explain how many loss luffy suffered before beating crocodile?

Or the help he got from Nico Robin to protect him from the poison?

Or that he physically beat a Zoan type user <-----The princes guards

 

[ChillySnow]

Spoiler

WB uses Haki to hit Kizaru

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WB uses Haki to hit Aokiji

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Kairouseki net pellet things are fired at Crocodile. Kairouseki would take a similar effect to Busoshoku Haki

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Known as Haki defense

Crocodile specializes in combat abilities using his fruit. He trained himself to become sand on reflex which is shown when he's in his human form and as soon as Doflamingo's thread touches his neck he becomes sand to avoid losing his head

Spoiler

[video=youtube;l5FtYKadnTE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5FtYKadnTE[/video]

This is evident as he cannot use Haki and still knew when to disperse into sand.

Like I said, Doffy was fooling around the whole war. You really think he's trying? And on top of that he likes Crocodile and want to make him an ally.

That's the special thing.
Brilliant punk>Gomu Gomu no Thor Elephant Gun>Asura>Hells Memories +Diable Jambe combo. If he can tank BP then he can easily tank most of Sanji's attacks. He won't be easy to beat down.

I never said he would go down in 1 hit but he won't be able to tag Sanji. And what is that based on?

I realize that. But Doffy never did with Sanji either:

Spoiler

Notice the grin , he never grinned when fighting Kuzan until he walked away. He never grinned when Fujitora pulled down a meteor. He only grins when he's fighting people he can beat easily. e.g. Sanji.

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Spoiler

Whats the point of this? Determining something by "grinning"

Sanji couldn't keep up. But guess who did?

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Mihawk was easily blitzing G2 Luffy at Marineford. Crocodile was faster than Luffy as he could keep up with Mihawk. Notice the blitzed Luffy. And Crocodile saving him : also looking unbothered by any effort just as much as Mihawk.

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Do you think Mihawk is trying hard? Mihawk is not even trying to kill Luffy. Hes been admiring him the whole time while fighting Vista. Heck, he's been admiring him for the whole war.

Do you wanna explain how many loss luffy suffered before beating crocodile?

Or the help he got from Nico Robin to protect him from the poison?

Or that he physically beat a Zoan type user <-----The princes guards

Do you know why I bolded the word?

 

[Hijey]

@rinnemaki. I don't know how to quote like that.

Was that stated somewhere, because I don't remember. They are admirals who were already monsters prior to becoming admirals at the age of ~25. They are up against a haki user. No reason at all to not use their haki.

I said they have their own haki they can defend against haki. Crocodile doesn't and therefore he's defenceless against it.

Yes. Just like how Luffy made holes in Crocodile when fighting him. Or how Appo's sound wave was able to cut Kizaru.

I forgot he did that. It doesn't change the fact he was still weaker than Luffy by a good margin since he was in prison.

No, they aren't. Pre timeskip Smoker wouldn't be fodder against Boa's sisters. Pekoms was just that much stronger than Caribou.


That's true. Haki alone nor logia alone is enough to last in the NW. Luck, being strong etc is what's needed.

Where was that stated? I don't remember. He could perhaps avoid haki attack from someone like Tashigi who is really shit, but not from people way higher than that.

One attack = / = keeping on par. Crocodile didn't fight Doflamingo, Jozu, Mihawk. All that happened is what we saw. Jozu not KO'ing Crocodile is a massive misleading by Oda or PIS as the Luffy/Sengoku case to keep Crocodile in the game. Jozu's damage output is still way higher than what the current m3 can. Crocodile got beaten by something that is a joke to even the current middle trio.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Known as Haki defense

Still got impaled didn't they? Or did they?

Like I said, Doffy was fooling around the whole war. You really think he's trying? And on top of that he likes Crocodile and want to make him an ally.

Due to his high caliber. He doesn't want to make an ally of Sanji.

I never said he would go down in 1 hit but he won't be able to tag Sanji. And what is that based on?

It's based upon logic and the use of an organ called a brain.

Whats the point of this? Determining something by "grinning"

By using a brain you would know I'm implying that the scale of Doflamingo's grin shows how hard he is trying. His grin against sanji when he completely speed blitzed him was the same as the one when Crocodile kept up with him.

Crocodile is physically superior to Sanji.

Do you think Mihawk is trying hard? Mihawk is not even trying to kill Luffy. Hes been admiring him the whole time while fighting Vista. Heck, he's been admiring him for the whole war.

No but he still speed blitzed G2 Luffy.

Do you know why I bolded the word?

You didn't bold anything sir.

@rinnemaki. I don't know how to quote like that.

Use a lot of quote codes....

Was that stated somewhere, because I don't remember. They are admirals who were already monsters prior to becoming admirals at the age of ~25. They are up against a haki user. No reason at all to not use their haki.

Of course they were monsters. I don't see your point. Because you didn't quote efficiently I don't even know what you're referring to.

I said they have their own haki they can defend against haki. Crocodile doesn't and therefore he's defenceless against it.

It's called dispersing around an attack. Haki allows the user to hit a Logia. But it doesn't remove their powers. They can still disperse into different shapes etc.

Yes. Just like how Luffy made holes in Crocodile when fighting him. Or how Appo's sound wave was able to cut Kizaru.

What are you referring to now? But they did it unsuccessfully. Crocodile can disperse around attacks : nuff said. It's not a hard concept to grasp is it?

I forgot he did that. It doesn't change the fact he was still weaker than Luffy by a good margin since he was in prison.

He stomped Luffy multiple times in Alabasta. Luffy only won by cheating on his third attempt. Crocodile was shown to still be stronger in Impel Down and Marineford as he was actually capable of hindering Sakazuki.

No, they aren't. Pre timeskip Smoker wouldn't be fodder against Boa's sisters. Pekoms was just that much stronger than Caribou.

I guess you're on about haki. But I can't tell what exactly you're responding to. Smoker is still inferior to Hancock if that means anything.

That's true. Haki alone nor logia alone is enough to last in the NW. Luck, being strong etc is what's needed.

So you do know something about One Piece?

Where was that stated? I don't remember.

Refer to the statement. Again I cannot tell what you're talking about.

He could perhaps avoid haki attack from someone like Tashigi who is really shit, but not from people way higher than that.

It's called dispersing and spreading his sand body away from the impact zone.

One attack = / = keeping on par. Crocodile didn't fight Doflamingo, Jozu, Mihawk. All that happened is what we saw. Jozu not KO'ing Crocodile is a massive misleading by Oda or PIS as the Luffy/Sengoku case to keep Crocodile in the game. Jozu's damage output is still way higher than what the current m3 can. Crocodile got beaten by something that is a joke to even the current middle trio.

What do you mean? Brilliant punk is no joke.

 

[Fujitora]

Sanji would take out Crocodile faster than Doflamingo was able to beat Sanji.

 

[ChillySnow]

Still got impaled didn't they? Or did they?

Aokiji's haki defended him from the stab thus turning back into logia

Due to his high caliber. He doesn't want to make an ally of Sanji.

Doffy is more familiar with Croc, their both used to be fellow Schi's and he likes him. On top of that, Sanji is in a crew already while Croc is with nobody and Sanji is in the crew that try to defeat him. Why would he try to ally Sanji knowing this?

It's based upon logic and the use of an organ called a brain.

>Pre TS Luffy tanked a shockwave from Sengoku.
>Sengoku>Jozu
>Pre TS M3 barely took out a Pacifista
>Post TS Sanji 1 shot a Pacifista
>Post TS Sanji stomps whole SH crew
>Post TS Sanji stomps Croc
>

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By using a brain you would know I'm implying that the scale of Doflamingo's grin shows how hard he is trying. His grin against sanji when he completely speed blitzed him was the same as the one when Crocodile kept up with him.

He said Sanji is strong but he didn't say that to Croc

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Crocodile is physically superior to Sanji.

This guy got his ass handed to him by Pre Gears Luffy

No but he still speed blitzed G2 Luffy.

Mihawk was trying to test Luffy's fate on the first encounter. Then when he see Luffy have this special power he has been holding back.

You didn't bold anything sir.

Not directed to you

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Aokiji's haki defended him from the stab thus turning back into logia

That's not how it works.

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Doffy is more familiar with Croc, their both used to be fellow Schi's and he likes him. On top of that, Sanji is in a crew already while Croc is with nobody and Sanji is in the crew that try to defeat him. Why would he try to ally Sanji knowing this?

I never implied that he wanted to ally with Sanji...

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>Pre TS Luffy tanked a shockwave from Sengoku.
>Sengoku>Jozu
>Pre TS M3 barely took out a Pacifista
>Post TS Sanji 1 shot a Pacifista
>Post TS Sanji stomps whole SH crew
>Post TS Sanji stomps Croc

-there was no shockwave. If there was : rubber is perfect for insulating and redirecting or transfering a shockwave : Shockwaves logically won't hurt Luffy
-How can Sanji stomp the crew in which he is 3rd strongest?
-Prove it.
-

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He said Sanji is strong but he didn't say that to Croc

Like you said earlier: he was more familiar with Croc so he wouldn't need to make such comments

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This guy got his ass handed to him by Pre Gears Luffy

Luffy had an advantage.

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