Establishing why Gaara beats Itachi

Shura · Oct 6, 2013

TheAncientCenturion said:
The fact that someone puts up a good argument for Itachi is enough to change your mind on whether or not he beats your favorite character? And make you seemingly fan over him more so. Distasteful.

You do know that I was an Itachi fan way before this, right? (._. ) This doesn't make him my fave, but I think that he beats my fave. u_u

j1388686 · Oct 6, 2013

Umm garaa goes into his mode, looks at Itachi, Itachi turns into hundreds of crows, overloads Garaas' target tracking ability, hits his blind spots

Untamed · Oct 6, 2013

Honestly U_U

Totsuka can change shapes and expand itself to how far? we don't know yet.
Totsuka can squeeze itself extremely thin to move in between the sand just like Deidara's clay.(and reach Gaara's face)

im gonna assume Susano'o is as almost if not as dense enough to be comparable to Kimimaro's kekkei genkei
Kimimaro's bones pierced Gaara's sand and Sasuke's chidori (chakra) so I bet Susano'o could too.

Itachi's crows can cast genjutsu or diversions according to his will and orders.

Gaara's sand: is Itachi dumb enough to go out towards Gaara of the Sand in person with his real body?
I think he would most likely send a clone or a crow to check things out.

Amateratsu vs sand. Itachi can send Amateratsu through the air and push it around towards any direction he wants to.
If he sends amateratsu through the air, it can fall down on top of Gaara if its positioned above him.

Gaara has a great chance, but Itachi still has a chance to beat him too.

Itachi's sharingan can read intentions without eye contact.

Crossroads · Oct 6, 2013

I apologize for the wait, was a bit occupied...

Waltz said:
This is solely subjective to Gaara being cognizant of Itachi's arsenal....Otherwise Genjutsu ends this. Now the Sharingan is able able to discern the mechanics of all Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu without restriction and goes on to enable the user to accurately predict all movements of the opponent in sight. Gaara is already at an initial advantage due to Tsukuyomi; a Genjutsu cultivated from the Mangekyou which can be activated via eye contact and as the Kazekage's initial notion in this battle [your route] is not to defend eye contact but rather execute the timely process of 'flight' then a 'third eye' leaves him vulnerable to Itachi's special version of the Genjutsu: Moon eater. It is a Genjutsu sparked solely on eye contact.

Me giving Gaara intelligence on some of Itachi's techniques are me favoring Gaara slightly in this scenario, but as him being Kazekage and allied with the Leaf, it wouldn't be out of the question to assume he has small intelligence on Itachi. Such as avoiding direct Eye contact. The Sharingan the mechanics of all Taijutsu and Genjutsu is slightly irrelevant in this match-up, as Gaara is pretty much useless in those two categories. Assuming Gaara has intelligence on Tsukuyomi, he wouldn't directly look at Itachi. Going back to my

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statement, I do believe it negates Genjutsu. Gaara's third is is connected through his nerves, yes.. but what's to say Gaara cuts off all contact while Itachi attempts Tsukuyomi..?

For example...

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-->

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Also, Gaara's Third-Eye is usually located a short distance away from himself, as shown here.

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And the Third-Eye doesn't create an optic nerve, it merely connects the user of the Jutsu to an existing optic nerve.

I'll have to conclude, my main argument to be held about Gaara handling Itachi's Genjutsu is this.

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Gaara held both eyes open while Gaara's Third-Eye searched for the Mizukage's Giant Clam while the mirage was occuring.

Now even if the third eye is employed; it makes little difference. If we examine the rudiments: Genjutsu affects chakra flow to the brain, meaning, though the Third eye is not an biological attachment, it evidently functions identically as one and must relay the information seen to the brain via the aforementioned chakra connection. Light clusters that travel from the object to the eye pass through the lens, where it is severed and falls reversely on the retina at the back of the eye. Here, via this chakra connection the light is converted into electrical signals that are transmitted to the center of vision in the back part of the brain thus enabling Gaara to see through the eye. Itachi simply manipulates this connection and Gaara is ceased. Amaterasu is another counter but it has already been highlighted:

This ties into my previous paragraph. The Third-Eye handled the Mizukage's mirage technique and was able to pinpoint the Nidaime Mizukage's location. If your statement was correct, Gaara's eyesight and perception in that fight would have been obscured, and a non-factor.. but that's not the case, as it contributed nicely towards the Nidaime Mizukage's demise. It's safe to say that Gaara controls the positive and negative effects of his optical prowess. The main argument to be held here is that Itachi's Genjutsu is greater than the Mizukage's.. while that is more than likely to be true, Gaara wasn't affected in the slightest during that particular fight.. which leads me to believe Tsukuyomi wouldn't affect him.

Now as Gaara cannot constantly battle Itachi without making Eye contact [give or take the few moments he would be able to do so] and that he is unable to anticipate the pinnacle Genjutsu Tsukuyomi; he would eventually be caught and if he manages to survive would have maintained a critical decline in his battling ability and mental stability. Itachi employs the Genjutsu a second time finishing him off. Given that Itachi's Tsukuyomi and his Dusk Crow Genjutsu solely requires eye contact; it means that they may be used inter changeably yet jointly with something such as a Kunai strike to the neck or Totsuka to finish. As regards Amatearsu and the employment of Ketai Henka over the technique; as your scan has elaborated; the armor of sand covers Gaara through his own will, highlighting that it is not an automatic response to stimuli by the sand itself but rather Gaara's anticipation of the incoming attack which may be intercepted by Amaterasu if his immediate defenses are occupied countering other jutsu. Itachi's physical prowess, highly notable reflexes and complex use of bunhsin, and the fact that his speed was a '5' as opposed to Kimmimaro's '4.5' is sufficient to say that he would able to avoid the high speed sand while on foot and the Sharingan has already
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Gaara's sand.

Most of this I've already considered void, as I've given the reason that Gaara can make lay his Third-Eye upon Itachi's body. I think you're forgetting that Gaara was able to form a sea of sand
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within minutes of him entering the grassy battlefield he fought Kimmimaro at, how exactly would Itachi lay his eyes upon Gaara when he has a sea of sand waiting to kill him..? Also, If the Nidaime Mizukage's mirage wasn't obscuring Gaara's eyesight and visual perception via Genjutsu, you expect Itachi's crows to do the trick? I think not.

I've already debunked Amaterasu in the OP, it's up to you to agree or disagree with what is posted. And considering the fact that Itachi doesn't have the best chakra reserves, him using Tsukuyomi on Gaara's Third-Eye is only going to lead to his drained chakras, something he can't waste in this fight.. as he has to fight Gaara's quantity with Itachi's quality.

And @ the bold, we can all pick and choose what we want to fit our argument, what about this?
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Madara didn't move, counter it, he didn't see it coming. And this is Madara with his Eternal Mangekyo activated, which is supposed to give the wielder heightened perception to that of the lack-luster 3-Tomoe.

Nothing but a timely process with various openings for Itachi. Karasu Bunshin would allow Itachi to close the gap between the two and also allow him to attak from both within the air and on land as well as enforce Genjutsu. The mere fact that Itachi is knowledgeable of his arsenal, Gaara wouldn't have time to grind sand and it is highly questionable if he can take to the skies given: Tsukuyomi [as mentioned above]. Found it rediculous that Gaara would ascend to the heights at which he fought Deidara when there is absolutely no reason to do unless he intends to lose sight of Itachi among the nearby forestry; an action remaining the the same bracket. In as much as Gaara's ability to manipulate earthen elements it ultimately amounts to nothing if he cannot breach Itachi's Genjutsu and intellect. Though his Stamina and chakra pools may be somewhat inferior it is in it's absence where a prodigious aptitude and being readily knowledgeable of what Gaara has to offer highlights itself. The fact is, Gaara cannot kill Itachi; a substantive defense such as the V1-Susanoo's ribcage is sufficient to prohibit any type of Sand burial and even if faced with with jutsu such as
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, Susanoo's ability to perform CQC and basic physical actions allows Itachi to effortlessly escape. On the contrary Itachi has various ways to finish Gaara Such as Izanami. The Genjutsu works by using your opponents senses [
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] and begins when the user sees fit to do so by saying "Izanami". All else that is required is for the Itachi to replicate the same Bodily sensation:

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Click to expand...

So what exactly does Itachi do to Gaara while he's safe and sound within his
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As if alive Itachi is pulling off a Jutsu like that without heavy and severe setbacks. Back in Part 1 of Naruto, Itachi had to rest his eyes with one use of Tsukuyomi, and one use of Amaterasu, and his reserve feats have only shown to to be slightly superior in part 2.

Saying Itachi could just escape is somewhat.. comical. Gaara's sand would flood the field, surely there would be sand fragments on Itachi's body that he would be unaware of.. Itachi trying to flee to the forest for subtle reasons would be futile.

The argument to be held if Gaara can actually break Susano'o matters not, Gaara has enough power to make it essential that Itachi has to have it up, or he dies. Basically once Susano'o is activated, it's a waiting game, Gaara steadily on the offensive, and Itachi steadily on the defensive. Itachi isn't outlasting Gaara, we both know who is superior in the chakra reserve category. And did you really bring in the Izanami argument to a Gaara Vs. Itachi fight...? :|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|:|

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The jutsu was created to control the Uchiha abusers of izanagi and the mere fact that it was used on Kabuto highlights the fact that it can be used outside of it's intended purpose. Even having prior knowledge of the jutsu doesn't save Gaara from it has he possesses no counter. Secondly,
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a spirit weapon which seals anything [both living and non living] it pierces can be used to seal not only Gaara's immediate Defense once in contact but any amounts of Sand thrown at him. Yata no Kagami also repels any waves of sand directed toward Itachi; Gaara cannot anticipate itachi's bunshin given the pace in which he is able to create them and even being able to do so while using shuriken. The Kazekage stands very little chance besting the true potential of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Itachi takes this low-Mid diff.

Click to expand...

I really don't know if you're trying to insult my intelligence with the Izanami counter.. but it would have no effect on Gaara. I also don't see Itachi resulting to such a technique, and he couldn't if he wanted to. As you stated, the same set of movements are needed.. and with Gaara's Sand literally shifting the very foundation Itachi is moving on, he's not exactly in control of his own movements.. is he..? In the OP I've proven why Gaara's aerial capabilities put him over Totsuka's reach. Yata Mirror would be a nice defense yes, but Gaara's sand isn't used a direct attack.. it usually tends to attack the target at all angles... as shown:

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And as far as I'm concerned... Yata Mirror is one-sided.
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As far as Bunshin goes... Bunshin.. then what..? Bunshin into Gōkakyū no Jutsu...? Yasaka Magatama..? Amaterasu..? You speak of Itachi like he has these immense chakra reserves. A Reanimated Itachi would more than likely win this battle due to his overwhelming Mangekyo techniques that he freely has the ability to use as he see's fit with little regard of his chakra reserves.

The Fifth Kazekage is not losing this fight.

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elsepa · Oct 6, 2013

Itachi solos your favorite character , good try tho.

Airbear · Oct 6, 2013

@ Crossroads yata isn't one sided...

would show u manga scans of yata stretching around itachi to protect from sasukes explosives but too lazy...

Crossroads · Oct 6, 2013

Airbear said:
Waltz post just made me wet my pants

Yeah he's fun to debate against.

And uhh... would you mind linking me that..? :|

blazekev90 · Oct 6, 2013

These Itachi fanboys try so hard to prove Itachi defeats Garra, when in fact he fails in most instances. Itachi is overall stronger but he loses, accept it and move on.

The moment i see Itachi use long range genjutsu I'll give him a fighting chance.

Crossroads · Oct 6, 2013

blazekev90 said:
These Itachi fanboys try so hard to prove Itachi defeats Garra, when in fact he fails in most instances. Itachi is overall stronger but he loses, accept it and move on.

The moment i see Itachi use long range genjutsu I'll give him a fighting chance.

Itachi definitely has some valid points to go against Gaara.. I'm just disliking all this negative feedback from people typing posts they took no longer than 20 seconds thinking of. Only a handful of people refuting my thread are actually being logical.

blazekev90 · Oct 6, 2013

Crossroads said:
Itachi definitely has some valid points to go against Gaara.. I'm just disliking all this negative feedback from people typing posts they took no longer than 20 seconds thinking of. Only a handful of people refuting my thread are actually being logical.

Well of course. Itachi has the tools to defeat any opponent, with relative ease. However, Garra effortlessly counters most, if not all, of his arsenal. His fighting style as a whole gives him advantage and he wouldn't be forced to fight according to Itachi's style, which is what most of his opponent have tried to do. Intelligence for both parties is an important factor. Itachi's intelligence by hype puts him above Garra, but Garra has demonstrated greater intelligence in the series as a whole.

I agree with some of your points, but would have used different scans and a few other arguments.

Waltz · Oct 6, 2013

Crossroads said:
Me giving Gaara intelligence on some of Itachi's techniques are me favoring Gaara slightly in this scenario, but as him being Kazekage and allied with the Leaf, it wouldn't be out of the question to assume he has small intelligence on Itachi. Such as avoiding direct Eye contact. The Sharingan the mechanics of all Taijutsu and Genjutsu is slightly irrelevant in this match-up, as Gaara is pretty much useless in those two categories. Assuming Gaara has intelligence on Tsukuyomi, he wouldn't directly look at Itachi. Going back to my Third-Eye statement, I do believe it negates Genjutsu. Gaara's third is is connected through his nerves, yes.. but what's to say Gaara cuts off all contact while Itachi attempts Tsukuyomi..?

For example... (X)-->(X)

@Bold: Then the foundation of your entire argument is biased and [false] dilemmas [your idea of the how the fight will play out] subject to your argument.

@Red: The evidence is against you as there have been various occasions in which Gaara has made eye contact with the Sharingan yet never an instance hinted that he is cautious of doing so; Kage summit being the greatest examples when he did not only look directly into Sasuke's Mangekyo but maintained eye contact....The question remains, what if Gaara was facing Itachi at that moment?

@Blue: Gaara cannot anticipate Tsukuyomi.

Crossroads said:
I'll have to conclude, my main argument to be held about Gaara handling Itachi's Genjutsu is this. (X)
Gaara held both eyes open while Gaara's Third-Eye searched for the Mizukage's Giant Clam while the mirage was occuring.

...

This ties into my previous paragraph. The Third-Eye handled the Mizukage's mirage technique and was able to pinpoint the Nidaime Mizukage's location. If your statement was correct, Gaara's eyesight and perception in that fight would have been obscured, and a non-factor.. but that's not the case, as it contributed nicely towards the Nidaime Mizukage's demise. It's safe to say that Gaara controls the positive and negative effects of his optical prowess. The main argument to be held here is that Itachi's Genjutsu is greater than the Mizukage's.. while that is more than likely to be true, Gaara wasn't affected in the slightest during that particular fight.. which leads me to believe Tsukuyomi wouldn't affect him.

@ Bold: Precisely, Also as opposed to the Mizukage's Genjutsu...

Viz Media said:
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Crossroads said:
So what exactly does Itachi do to Gaara while he's safe and sound within his Sand Dome..? Is he going to land a strike on Gaara with Yasaka no Magatama..? As if alive Itachi is pulling off a Jutsu like that without heavy and severe setbacks. Back in Part 1 of Naruto, Itachi had to rest his eyes with one use of Tsukuyomi, and one use of Amaterasu, and his reserve feats have only shown to to be slightly superior in part 2. Saying Itachi could just escape is somewhat.. comical. Gaara's sand would flood the field, surely there would be sand fragments on Itachi's body that he would be unaware of.. Itachi trying to flee to the forest for subtle reasons would be futile.

The argument to be held if Gaara can actually break Susano'o matters not, Gaara has enough power to make it essential that Itachi has to have it up, or he dies. Basically once Susano'o is activated, it's a waiting game, Gaara steadily on the offensive, and Itachi steadily on the defensive. Itachi isn't outlasting Gaara, we both know who is superior in the chakra reserve category. And did you really bring in the Izanami argument to a Gaara Vs. Itachi fight...?

@Green:

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.

@ Bold: Kage-Bunshin.

@blue: 'Flooding the field' is entirely subjective to an advantageous terrain, also Itachi has the ability of flight via Karasu.

Crossroads said:
As far as Bunshin goes... Bunshin.. then what..? Bunshin into Gōkakyū no Jutsu...? Yasaka Magatama..? Amaterasu..? You speak of Itachi like he has these immense chakra reserves. A Reanimated Itachi would more than likely win this battle due to his overwhelming Mangekyo techniques that he freely has the ability to use as he see's fit with little regard of his chakra reserves.

The argument to be held if Gaara can actually break Susano'o matters not, Gaara has enough power to make it essential that Itachi has to have it up, or he dies. Basically once Susano'o is activated, it's a waiting game, Gaara steadily on the offensive, and Itachi steadily on the defensive. Itachi isn't outlasting Gaara, we both know who is superior in the chakra reserve category. And did you really bring in the Izanami argument to a Gaara Vs. Itachi fight...? I really don't know if you're trying to insult my intelligence with the Izanami counter.. but it would have no effect on Gaara

with Gaara's Sand literally shifting the very foundation Itachi is moving on
Gaara's aerial capabilities put him over Totsuka's reach

Itachi:
-> Suffering severely from sickness
-> Chakra pools depleted to the point that he couldn't maintain a 3-tomoe Sharingan
-> Suffering from bodily harm
-> Suffering Blood loss

Was able to Utilize the Kanzentai Susano'o as well as it's compartments being Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami, Seal Orochimaru and maintain the Mirror to guard against explosive Kunai highlights the measure to which you underestimate his charka control.

@Bold: Unless you lack basic reading comprehension? It already solidify's Itachi's victory.

@Blue: Subjective and as I have already stated, Itachi has no problem combating Gaara at long ranges or in the air as the distance between the two can be shortened via Karasu bunshin.

Crossroads said:
Yata Mirror would be a nice defense yes, but Gaara's sand isn't used a direct attack.. it usually tends to attack the target at all angles... as shown.

And as far as I'm concerned... Yata Mirror is one-sided.(X)

As Highlighted, The Mirror adjusts to cushion incoming attacks and negates them.

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VongolaX · Oct 6, 2013

Itachi drills a powerful suiton through gaara's head.

He'll die easily

Silverblade · Oct 6, 2013

Deidara solo'ed Gaara when he had the geographical advantage as a Jinchuuriki.
Madara solo'ed Gaara as well with Susanoo.

Fail thread.

Gaara doesn't stand a chance against Itachi.
Also OP forgot that Itachi is a Water User as well.
Unlike Tobirama, Itachi can use Water ninjutsu without a source as well.

blazekev90 · Oct 6, 2013

Waltz said:
@Bold: Then the foundation of your entire argument is biased and [false] dilemmas [your idea of the how the fight will play out] subject to your argument.

@Red: The evidence is against you as there have been various occasions in which Gaara has made eye contact with the Sharingan yet never an instance hinted that he is cautious of doing so; Kage summit being the greatest examples when he did not only look directly into Sasuke's Mangekyo but maintained eye contact....The question remains, what if Gaara was facing Itachi at that moment?

@Blue: Gaara cannot anticipate Tsukuyomi.

@ Bold: Precisely, Also as opposed to the Mizukage's Genjutsu...

@Green:
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.

@ Bold: Kage-Bunshin.

@blue: 'Flooding the field' is entirely subjective to an advantageous terrain, also Itachi has the ability of flight via Karasu.

Itachi:
-> Suffering severely from sickness
-> Chakra pools depleted to the point that he couldn't maintain a 3-tomoe Sharingan
-> Suffering from bodily harm
-> Suffering Blood loss

Was able to Utilize the Kanzentai Susano'o as well as it's compartments being Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami, Seal Orochimaru and maintain the Mirror to guard against explosive Kunai highlights the measure to which you underestimate his charka control.

@Bold: Unless you lack basic reading comprehension? It already solidify's Itachi's victory.

@Blue: Subjective and as I have already stated, Itachi has no problem combating Gaara at long ranges or in the air as the distance between the two can be shortened via Karasu bunshin.

As Highlighted, The Mirror adjusts to cushion incoming attacks and negates them.

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Not to just into your debate, but I owe one (1)

1) assuming Garra is aware of avoiding eye contact is a reasonable argument. It's well known that Uchiha use genjutsu, Chiyo herself was well informed of how to fight against the sharingan. Mentioning a moment in which Garra approach Sasuke, in which neither party was hostile (Sasuke-Garra), is quite laughable.

2) Tsukuyomi is still close range, Itachi would need to close the distance instantly. As he does here,

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However, such tactics wouldnt work of Garra. As previous fights have shown, Garra's initial attack is either a tsunami or a sneak attack as shown here

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Both of Garra's opponents have side-eyed Garra's initial attack. Now, if Garra was to start like this, as manga has shown, Itachi mostly himself would look as well.

Now if Itachi was to look, it would leave an openly for Garra to use a clone. As we have seen, Garra uses clones effortlessly and very often in his fights.

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Not one person noticed this except Kakashi, who was observing the fight extremely closely. Once Itachi takes his eye off Garra to defend against sand, Garra would (could) swap and Itachi has already been shown trying to use genjutsu on a clone.

3) Garra can react to Amaterasu (not predict). Amaterasu requires prep for its first use, this is concentration...blood..blah blah blah. As you have mentioned, Garra is something to likes to have eye-contact. Therefore, if the process occurs, regardless is he is aware of Amaterasu or not, Garra would resort to this

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this is nothing more than a simple defense mechanism is noticing his opponent is about to attack. Also, just to point out, Garra always covers himself instantly after such attacks.

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4) "The Mirror adjusts"...Yes, this is true. However, Garra has control of the environment (90% of the time).

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In MOST instances Garra can resort to this, as long as there are rocks and minerals available. Some instancs I've purposely left out, I'm assuming you'll use them in your counter but that wont be an issue =D

I really :erm:hate rushing, but I have to finish studying. I'll be back later.

Crossroads · Oct 6, 2013

Waltz said:
@Bold: Then the foundation of your entire argument is biased and [false] dilemmas [your idea of the how the fight will play out] subject to your argument.

@Red: The evidence is against you as there have been various occasions in which Gaara has made eye contact with the Sharingan yet never an instance hinted that he is cautious of doing so; Kage summit being the greatest examples when he did not only look directly into Sasuke's Mangekyo but maintained eye contact....The question remains, what if Gaara was facing Itachi at that moment?

@Blue: Gaara cannot anticipate Tsukuyomi.

@Bold, actually.. not exactly. The entire point of even having this discussion is to prove to the person I'm debating with that my character of choice is the victor. Me favoring Gaara in this fight simply means I'm going to bring up more Gaara related facts and my personal perception, (without going over the top). Moving on.

@Red, you're tending to forget that both times Gaara was looking directly into Madara and Sasuke's eyes, he was having a conversation.. in this specific fight.. Itachi being known to bedridden Kakashi and Sasuke with his Genjutsu, also in an actual fight, no discussion being involved.. would Gaara do the same..?

@Blue,I'd have to disagree considering the fact that the only time Gaara's Third-Eye was exposed to Genjutsu, it was perfectly fine. Which is more to go off of than you simply stating it's not.

@ Bold: Precisely, Also as opposed to the Mizukage's Genjutsu...

The Mizukage's Jutsu had no effect whatsoever on Gaara's 5 senses through his Third-Eye, but all of Itachi's arsenal will have an effect.. Lol. You'd think such a thing would be noted in the Manga by now, (Gaara's Third-Eye being affected by Genjutsu.)

@Green:
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.

@ Bold: Kage-Bunshin.

@blue: 'Flooding the field' is entirely subjective to an advantageous terrain, also Itachi has the ability of flight via Karasu.

@Green, comparing Sasuke's superior Amaterasu/Enton use to Itachi, eh..? Seems legit. Amaterasu being used by Itachi is only ensuring Itachi's demise.

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@Bold, because someone of Itachi's chakra status can definitely pull off Kage Bunshin that'll distract the likes of Gaara..right.

@Blue, well.. where exactly would this fight take place..? Certainly not indoors..? I can't really think of proper designated area this fight would occur, but I can't imagine it would be a destination that would be out of Gaara's ability to form sand underground. And Gaara didn't really have the geographical advantage in the Gaara Vs. Kimmimaro fight, it was a grassy field that Gaara

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into a sea of sand.

Also, Itachi taking flight through Karasu is almost as terrifying for Itachi as being on the ground.

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^ Gets performed on the crows/Itachi and he'll be forced to activate the only defense he has, Susano'o.. which will only begin to deteriorate his chakra.

Itachi:
-> Suffering severely from sickness
-> Chakra pools depleted to the point that he couldn't maintain a 3-tomoe Sharingan
-> Suffering from bodily harm
-> Suffering Blood loss

Was able to Utilize the Kanzentai Susano'o as well as it's compartments being Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami, Seal Orochimaru and maintain the Mirror to guard against explosive Kunai highlights the measure to which you underestimate his charka control.

I never once underestimated his chakra control, when did I say this..? :|

These feats are very nice and all, but it still doesn't change the fact that:
- Susano'o would only be used to shield himself against Gaara's never-ending Sand Tsunami's.
- What is Totsuka sealing.. sand on the ground..?
- As for Yata.. I'll get into that.

@Bold: Unless you lack basic reading comprehension? It already solidify's Itachi's victory.

@Blue: Subjective and as I have already stated, Itachi has no problem combating Gaara at long ranges or in the air as the distance between the two can be shortened via Karasu bunshin.

@Bold, you thinking Izanami would actually work against Gaara proves one of two things:
1) You're clearly overrating Itachi's abilities and his lack of chakra in living form.. or..
2) You underestimate the 5th Kazekage to the point where you think Itachi would be able to move freely of his own accord to activate Izanami when he's literally fighting for his life within Gaara's grasp...? Yeah.. nope.

I'm pretty sure Gaara has no problems accepting his fate as Kazekage, a fate he wants and holds dear to his heart.. this actually made me chuckle.

@Blue,So you're suggesting that Itachi can best Gaara when it comes to aerial and long-ranged Jutsu prowess? Lol. This isn't Edo Itachi. This is the Itachi that fought Hebi Sasuke. Itachi isn't spamming any long ranged Jutsu at Gaara (the only one I even see having a chance of getting through to Gaara's defense is Yasaka Magatama... But how many of these will we see before Itachi drops dead..? I don't see Itachi producing Karasu/Kage Bunshin on the level you're suggesting.

As Highlighted, The Mirror adjusts to cushion incoming attacks and negates them.

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And you show me a Manga scan of Yata stretching... so because it can elongate itself slightly passed what it was initially introduced to look like, you're going to assume it can stretch and fit itself around Itachi's entire Susano'o..?
What's to stop

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(top panel) from happening..? Madara didn't even see it coming with EMS.

As stated before, Gaara isn't losing.

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Disquiet · Oct 6, 2013

First, I'd like to say what a splendid reply to Waltz's post.

Second, read this on Itachi's chakra levels/chakra control and the various ways he can use Susano'o.

Nàmeless said:
AMATERASU

People always say that Itachi can only use 2-3 amaterasu. What is often overlooked, is the amount of amaterasu Itachi used in his fight with Sasuke. He managed to engulf half of the forest surrounding the building [
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] - [
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] - [
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]. Those pages are in order by the way. Prior to that, he used an amaterasu of this scale [
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]. Then he extinguished it [
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]. He later proves it's well within his capability to control the quantity [
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]. Check out the amount Sasuke is releasing[
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]. Itachi could at least produce ten of those.

Also keep in mind he used the Tsukyomi earlier, as well as a few other jutsu.

SUSANO'O

Susano'o is a materialization of the users chakra, but how can it materialize if the user has little to no chakra left? Itachi, while he was near death, managed to manifest his Susano's complete form. Not to mention, his body was very weak at that time; due to the disease. This actually speaks volumes of Itachi's chakra control/levels; especially since most brush him off as a guy who can't hold out for very long. Yet, he was able to materiliaze his chakra on this level [
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] - [
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] after performing very chakra-taxing jutsu and even outlasted Sasuke.

Susano'o users can even partially manifest susano'o; presenting simple ribs for protection
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. If Itachi really wanted to, he could even start a battle wearing a simple cloak and still get pretty far before tiring [
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], pay close attention to the first two panels. It would be less onerous on his body and chakra. As we saw, Madara managed to block attacks with a susano'o cloak (no bones or ribs) [
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]. That's basically all Itachi would need depending on his opponent; he could fight with that itty bitty cloak. As demonstrated above, his chakra levels and or control is certainly great enough for it.

He is also able to go on the offense/defense with Susano'o very fast. No Susano'o [
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] - [
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] - [
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]. As you can see, he managed to make a fist and extend it to protect sasuke, at the last moment. I'm not surprised, since he managed to activate this [
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] before being struck by lightning. And yes this was real lightning, so there's no hyperbole here. If you're within in Itachi's range, he could activate his susano'o and smash you before your mind can process his actions.

I'd also like to add he used two clones before that fight, one to meet up with Naruto, and one to meet up with Sasuke.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alright, I'll center this around some key points. Mainly about Gaara's immediate flight of the battle's commencement. This strategy is unproductive for Gaara. He needs to mold his chakra with the land to be able to turn it into usable sand

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-

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. Though this should be obvious. Nowhere in the manga has one been able to control foreign objects/substance without chakra being present in some form. It's unthinkable and illogical (yes even in this manga), that he can move around minerals without any connection whatsoever. This actually goes against the logic presented by the manga. This argument is further supported by the fact that the sand he keeps in his own gourd is imbued with his chakra as well
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. After Deidara realizes that the sand in his gourd is much faster, he deduced that the sand in his gourd pervaded with "ton of old chakra all gathered up." The emphasis on ton is not meant for you to take that word literal, but instead shows that while loose sand contains far less of his chakra, it still contains chakra; just not as much as the sand in his gourd does. Additionally, if the sand is not automatic, he must use more chakra for activation.
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. This is sensible because he must instead use chakra from his own body instead of that which is in his gourd.

So, he must first displace his chakra into the ground. He either does this through expelling it through his feet or mixing his own sand with the earth. However, to create an amount large enough for a sand tsunami, he must first clap his hands
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. <----- Another example of channeling his chakra, then he must go on to do this
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. As I pointed out in that quote up above, Itachi is capable of using many variants of Susano'o, and can activate them at lightning speeds. Gaara's sand thrashing around isn't going to do anything, he has a better chance at hardening it, but even that is futile against the defense of Susano'o. Oh, and before I continue, he does need to harden it for it to have some type of effect
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-
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- [
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. Otherwise it's just a bunch of loose sand; which Sasuke knocked off with ease
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. Throwing sand on Susano'o isn't going to do anything, he not only need to make the sand wave; but also harden it all. Not only will Itachi survive it, but Gaara is also at risk; because Itachi can totsuka him through the ground depending on depth and distance. It's not bound by the physical
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. So while Gaara is doing this
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, he gets pierced by totsuka. There would be no need for him to take flight, he doesn't know about Itachi's secret weapons; all Itachi's known threats would be out of range as far as he's concerned. He did the same with Kimimaro, didn't take flight even though he knew he was emerging. And Itachi has the Sharingan, he can stay at a distance where Gaara feels comfortable. Also, the range of totsuka is greatly underestimated, look at the page where Nagato is being totsuka'd. In the middle right panel, you can see the tree, and Nagato's size compared to that tree, and in the bottom right panel; we see the blade extending from where Itachi is (which is a considerable distance from the tree), and beyond it. The distance it covers after exiting Nagtato is unknown. The blade is actually very long, more than people realize. Again, Itachi would just have to keep a distance where Gaara feels comfortable and then pierce him from within the ground. Waltz already linked a page showcasing Yata covering the bottom of Susano'o.

Also, notice here that the sand around Kimimaro is rather loose
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, I'm guessing from Kimimaro's activity. It's this same sand Gaara seems to be using here
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-
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. Then Kimimaro breaks free, and runs toward Gaara. What does Gaara do? He touches the hardened sand (not softened), and softens it to utilize it
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. There was no need to touch the ground if he could have used the surrounding sand. In case you haven't noticed where I'm going with any of this, he won't be able to immediately flee into the air. He cannot do Sand Tsunami from within the air. In fact, it would be much more strategical of Itachi to let him perform sand tsnuami on him and harden it, because Gaara would have to come back down from the air to soften it again once Itachi breaks out.

Sasuke managed to hit Gaara with his part 1 speed. It's clear that Itachi's speed is tiers above part 1 Sasuke's. I don't see Gaara managing to clap his hands and retreat into the air before he's caught in Itachi's finger genjutsu. Remember, Itachi only needs this range at least
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. lol he will most likely already be within that range; not like he's incapable of getting into that distance before Gaara can perform the sand tsunami and fly into the air.

Also, continuously manipulating the sand on ground is not very strategical of Gaara either. He didn't even do it in his fight with Deidara, and yet was still huffing and puffing
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, after doing the following
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-
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-
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-
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-
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-
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, then he starts sweating along with huffing
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. He also didn't do much large scale attacks against Madara; further suggesting he wishes to reserve as much chakra as possible. Heck, some of those chakra taxing techniques in that Deidara battle was because Deidara forced him to do so. Remember, Gaara is not going to know Itachi has a disease that hinders him. On top of that, he's an Uchiha, a very renowned one; having murdered his entire clan. The last thing he would want to do is to get into an endurance battle.

There's something else worth mentioning. Gaara seemingly decided to use his more powerful sand to dispose of Deidara's arm
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. The normal sand is much weaker, which begs the question of how effective it really is (sand seizing an opponent's leg, arm, etc.)

Addition ---

As for sand clones, they need a medium of sand. So either they are created from Gaara's sand, or surrounding sand. This battle (all battles) starts with the two facing each other. So Gaara would have to do something like this
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from either his sand or the surrounding sand. It would be blatantly obvious. They're both (real selves) in front of each others eyes. He's not escaping the point of a finger via such means. Gaara simply won't have the time to do anything; nor does he know about the finger genjutsu.

Oh, you may also be getting the idea he can do this to escape the finger genjutsu
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. However, that's what this is
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. He only uses it when he's in a pinch, and it's not automatic. It would have to be a condition (Gaara starts off with his armored sand), otherwise he would have to cover himself in it first, then proceed to leave it before Itachi points his finger. Again, it uses up more chakra, so it makes absolute zero sense to activate it when there's no apparent harm (he's not even sure if Itachi can get through his automatic sand).

Itachi's handwork is quite fast, even the sharingan had trouble keeping up
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. Here's a segment from my Itachi's ability analysis thread:

Nàmeless said:

But check this out [
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].

"The greatest benefit of this jutsu is that the process of taking out a ninja tool, taking a stance and putting it into action is sped up to the extreme."

"Ninja tools are deployed at truly lightning speeds that literally take the air out of an adversary's sails and allow the caster to take the initiative in battle."

Here's the fight [
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] - [
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] - [
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]. Sasuke is no slow poke, yet even with the advantage he had in that situation, Itachi not only matches him; but manages to make a handsign for a clone. So wait, not only would opponents have to be mindful of their blind spots, watch the trajectory of deflected kunai, but also have to keep up with with the sheer SPEED that Itachi is able to deploy his ninja tools while watching Itachi AND any clone he might make in the process? That's insane! Let me reiterate; Sasuke had the advantage. It's well within reason to assume any person even a bit slower and or skillful (it's not just about speed, it's also about skill) would have been killed. Furthermore, Sasuke is the only user of that technique, others would have to take the stance, and put it into action the way we are accustomed to.

Click to expand...

Although it was mainly showcasing his kunai skills, it also highlights his sheer hand-speed.

More Goodies--

While it's common belief that susano'o users can pulled out their defense from under, it is a false belief. Well, it's true and false. Susano'o users do have the means of shielding below as well; Madara was simply careless. Actually, Madara didn't know anything about Gaara lol (unlike Itachi). Madara shows several times that Susano'o users are capable of protecting beneath. First here
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. Logically, if there was any opening below, the lava would have been oozing into his Susano'o, not over it (and that form of Susano'o is one of the lowest). Though if that doesn't suffice, there is clearly no opening here
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.

When put into prospective, this whole strategy of Gaara that you're proposing seems quite illogical.

In the end, genjutsu is what ends this. Itachi simply points his finger before Gaara can clap his hands and make the necessary sand. Gaara has shown no skill in genjutsu kai.

H a n · Oct 6, 2013

Gaara can win but it does not mean he will or would. Sasuke may have got solo'ed by Gaara don't mean Itachi would.

Harry Balzac · Oct 6, 2013

Gaara defeat the prodigy of the uchiha, the infamous uchiha itachi eh... seems logical.

ShiroShonen · Oct 6, 2013

Javaweb said:
Amaterasu is overrated espically when Karin got hit by it she didn't even get burned as quick as it hype

Questions:

Itachi fire attacks are huge what are his defense?

Itachi knows water releaase. Sand is very effective against sand. What is defense?

Izanami if the fight goes hard what his defense?

Water techiques he could use

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Things just got serious

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Waltz · Oct 6, 2013

@BlazeKev90: Cannot be a reasonable argument if there is nothing pointing towards that and also that we've seen Gaara peer into various Sharingan without being cautious Genjutsu, Madara [as Nous highlighted] and Sasuke are examples. As regards Tsukuyomi it all depends on the initial distance of combatants if they are close range, Gaara is finished. Sand Tsunami is subjective to an advantageous terrain and I've already addressed the issue in my initial post in this thread. Itachi doesn't 'need to look' as his Genjutsu is faster established than any of Gaara's jutsu; A Kakashi without the sharingan was able to peer through his bunshin means Itachi would do similarly with the sharingan. Amataersu is agreeable. Gaara having control of the environment is once more subjective to an advantageous terrain. I would agree that Gaara does possess an arsenal and fighting style to rival that of Itachi but in reality the fight isn't progressing beyond Genjutsu.

@Crossroads: The flaw remains that you've allowed Gaara to be fully cognizant of Itachi's jutsu and your entire argument is biased [opposed to being realistic] and solely to Gaara's favor. Whether there was a conversation or not it is still a an opening for Genjutsu to be employed---- I'll reiterate once more: Gaara knows nothing of Itachi's Genjutsu. As regards the Mizukage, you seem to be illegible of the fact that:
-> Gaara's special sensor sand was what allowed him to locate the Mizukage's Clam, not the 3rd eye.
-> Tsukuyomi reigns superior to all Genjutsu that exists.
-> Itachi's Tsukuyomi is thus far unrivaled save, Mugen Tsukuyomi.

Thought it was known to the majority that Enton: Kagutsuchi and Amataersu are two different things. If itachi was able to produce Amatearsu sufficient enough to devour an entire forest then there is nothing opposing him engulfing Gaara's sand Dome. Regardless of the Terrain, I've already addressed the issue in my initial post. Pertaining to Karasu-bunshin: It is a technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards many karasu; Gaara is crushing...? Totsuka no Tsurugi seals anything it pierces, which would include Gaara's sand and Immediate defenses. Yata has already been addressed.

Crossroads said:
@Bold, you thinking Izanami would actually work against Gaara proves one of two things:
1) You're clearly overrating Itachi's abilities and his lack of chakra in living form.. or..
2) You underestimate the 5th Kazekage to the point where you think Itachi would be able to move freely of his own accord to activate Izanami when he's literally fighting for his life within Gaara's grasp...? Yeah.. nope.

I'm pretty sure Gaara has no problems accepting his fate as Kazekage, a fate he wants and holds dear to his heart.. this actually made me chuckle

@ Bold: Then you disagree with the Canonical explanation on the Genjutsu, it's workings and rudiments?

[...]

@ Red: You're saying Itachi would be unable to replicate 2 similar notions? ...

Gaara only removed Madara due to Onoki's Jutsu which was supported by an advantageous terrain: The desert.

There is no reason for me to ramble on as it resides in futility.

Establishing why Gaara beats Itachi

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