[Discussion] Freedom vs Peace - Obito vs Naruto, who is right?

[bharatputra]

A person who is genjutsu'ed goes in a dream like state. Now in that genjutsu, he may even be a hokage or she may even be the most wonderful woman on the planet, there may be peace without sacrifices, but to be honest, the person who is experiencing this is actually doing nothing in the real world.

Doing nothing in the sense, they are still, almost like a vegetative state/sleep in the real world. Consider this : If this genjutsu goes on for a month of real world's time, the people are essentially doing nothing but sleeping in the wild without having food or water or defaecation.

What do you think will happen to the real people in the real world after this one month then? It's quite simple to deduce that they all will eventually die round about a months time.

The matrix in the movies lasted as long as it did because the machines were able to manufacture humans and grow them and take care of their nutrition while the humans were having fun in lalaland. This doesn't happen in infinite tsukoyomi.

To me, Obito/Madara's genjutsu is nothing but a ticking timebomb of human extinction. Not much of a choice now, is it?

 

[-ahhimane-]

How Obito is sided to Freedom? (as per your title says)

 

[bharatputra]

How Obito is sided to Freedom? (as per your title says)

He got it wrong in the title. It's Obito's peace vs Naruto's freedom.

 

[-Sky-]

The Yin and Yang concept has been in Naruto for a long time, as has it been in the real world. A world of winners, and a world of losers. Isn't that what pains Obito so? The fact that not everyone can live a happy life of peace and prosperity?

However, in a world of dreams centralized on the individuals own Psyche's, what will be in it? It will be a world where they are the best and they are the winner. Everyone is happy trapped within their brains. Their shells, cocooned away from the world. As they sit idly, the material world falls.

The fact is, no matter where you run too, the concept of good and evil, yin and yang, will always follow you. Except in a dream, you're the winner, and everyone else is a loser.

True peace won't exist until the very nature of humanity undergoes a change, a change that won't happen if they're extinct. Think about it. Humans will be dead and gone in the real world in a matter of weeks, if not days.

Their is no good without bad. The bad exists to make the good. How can one love if they don't know hate? These are things that one must learn on the path of life to reach true inner peace, and when that time comes, then they can move on. That's life

 

[madobi]

i am in naruto side to some extent

as it is meaningless to have peace by force or by mind domination !!
what is the meaning of achieving peace among ppl who will lose their ability to choose !! they will not be human any more
what is the satisfaction that madara will get if he ruled the mind of ppl so no more wars !!he is just cheating himself
it is even boring ! okay what will occur when he died !!


however i accept that there is no real peace in real life as pain & obito & madara believed
it is a rule in this life _like any physics rule _ that ppl will be pushed against each other , of course there is temporary peace but it cannot be forever , u can have a look in the whole earth allover the history there were always wars in a spot in the earth !

this spot just changing from time to time , but always there were wars uptill now

 

[Armathyx]

A person who is genjutsu'ed goes in a dream like state. Now in that genjutsu, he may even be a hokage or she may even be the most wonderful woman on the planet, there may be peace without sacrifices, but to be honest, the person who is experiencing this is actually doing nothing in the real world.

Doing nothing in the sense, they are still, almost like a vegetative state/sleep in the real world. Consider this : If this genjutsu goes on for a month of real world's time, the people are essentially doing nothing but sleeping in the wild without having food or water or defaecation.

What do you think will happen to the real people in the real world after this one month then? It's quite simple to deduce that they all will eventually die round about a months time.

The matrix in the movies lasted as long as it did because the machines were able to manufacture humans and grow them and take care of their nutrition while the humans were having fun in lalaland. This doesn't happen in infinite tsukoyomi.

To me, Obito/Madara's genjutsu is nothing but a ticking timebomb of human extinction. Not much of a choice now, is it?

You highly misunderstand the way this jutsu works. I wonder if you've even been reading the manga at all.

It's not a different dimension jutsu. Do you really think Obito is so dumb he can't see the flaw you just stated? No, it's a mind controlling jutsu. Just like Koto Amatsukami, people go on living in the real world but they don't realize they're controlled by the God Tree.

I want you guys to understand something. First of all obito: Obito is going through with the genjutsu just because of rin and that is the most naive reason of all. Logic: people should be able to live freely without someone telling them what to do and being Control by a genjutsu is not freedom. It's forcing others to do what you want because they are unable to resist your power which is dictatorship. Philosophy: When naruto speak to someone, he speak of friendship & love and you can see that other shinobi realized their mistakes and step into the light which is love and friendship and create a bond stronger than ever like naruto and zabuza who used haku for his own gain.

Friendship & love are the true way to peace really look at naruto & kurama. Bee & hachibi. Naruto & bee. Naruto & son goku. Naruto & gaara. For a shot period of time naruto knew nagato & itachi but understand one another perfectly.

You're just as good a demagog as Naruto. Indeed he speaks of friendship... much like any dictator speaks of victory. Naruto doesn't give any explanations. He makes nice rhetorical speeches embelished by words like "friendship and love", but if you remember his speech to Nagato, he never explains how he wants to achieve that. He doesn't give evidence or any sincere reason to follow him. He just discard's Nagato's solution as useless and manipulates him into the beauty of his words.

Again, Naruto doesn't give a damn about other people's opinions. Notice the vast difference between how he speaks to Sasuke and how Hashirama speaks to Madara. He doesn't care why Sasuke left the village, he just wants him back, and he doesn't care to know why Sasuke would want to become Hokage either.

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Hashirama, however, is much more inclined to hear opinions and listen to Madara.

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The point of this is just to show you how narrow minded Naruto really is. Having him as a leader is pretty much the same as having Obito as a leader. Itachi told him he was going the same road, and in spite Naruto saying he understood it, he still doesn't seem to have changed. Partly because of Kishimoto's unbalanced writing where 1 character is stronger than the entire alliance together, and partly because the character himself is stubborn and won't care about different opinions.

 

[tasuxeda]

The problem with the Moon's Eye Plan is that individuals don't get to choose to join the dream world or stay in the real world everyone in the world is going to be brought into the dream world despite their own desires.

If Obito and Madara offered to only bring willing people into the dream work then they would be for more right but as it is they have decided as that they have the authority to decide what is best for everyone in the world even though the major powers of the world has chosen to fight them so they are not at all right.

Naruto on the other hand isn't forcing people to do what he want them to do they have the choice to refuse him he might do his best to convince them but in the end it still their choice that fact make Naruto more right especially when the vast majority currently agree with him.

 

[bharatputra]

You highly misunderstand the way this jutsu works. I wonder if you've even been reading the manga at all.

It's not a different dimension jutsu. Do you really think Obito is so dumb he can't see the flaw you just stated? No, it's a mind controlling jutsu. Just like Koto Amatsukami, people go on living in the real world but they don't realize they're controlled by the God Tree.

Where did I say it's a different dimension jutsu. It's more like a dream induction. If Obito is just going to mind control, how in the world do you think is he going to get his main objective "Rin" back in the frame? He wants a world where Rin is alive.

 

[Mr Hiru]

It's easy to side with Naruto when reading this manga. It has his name, it develops almost entirely around him and it's coming from a Japanese author - they just don't seem to have any idea what "balance" means when it comes to creating stories. The main character in Japanese manga is like our heroes from the 70's 80's, like Luke Skywalker: he's always right, and the enemies are evil Nazis and whatever else.

But in the case of Naruto (the anime), the villains are developped just enough that you can wonder whether or not they're actually the good guys. I'm certainly not the only one to have been convinced by Nagato's speech to Naruto, especially when Naruto's reply was simply "yeah whatever I'll save the world don't worry".

I don't consider Naruto's answer to Nagato to have ever been an actual answer. So far he's still yet to answer anything, he just says "whatever" and rasengans whoever disagrees with him, including Sasuke for whom he doesn't give a damn whether or not the guy actually wants to go back to Konoha.

In fact, you'll notice Naruto just doesn't have any respect or consideration for opinions that are in disagreement with his. When he wants something, he wants to force people around him to do so, under the flag of "motivation".


Now, getting to the point of this thread. For the reason mentionned above, I'm actually starting to wonder who would be right in a realistic scenario, a philosophical essay or a court of law: Naruto or Obito? It's pretty much a freedom vs peace debate, and it's actually something very complicated with no real answer. Let's take a look at both offers:


Naruto:

• The freedom of chosing the future... or is it freedom for Naruto to chose everyone's future?
• At the price of more and more shinobi sacrificed for Naruto/The Kage's cause during each charge at Obito
• The Bijuu's freedom


Obito:

• A perfect dreamworld where everyone is in peace, but where no progress ever happens
• Could happen immediately and without any further human losses if there's a cease fire
• The Bijuu cease to exist individually

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I'm currently tempted to be on Obito's side as his statements can be backed by empirical evidence. In the manga, there's indeed a cycle of hatred that'll just start again sooner or later in case the Alliance wins. It's what happens when people don't have a common ennemy. Naruto's words are currently as much a dream as Obito's dreamworld would be like.

So... so you're telling that Naruto is an anarchist with a double standard, while Obito is giving the option of a real dreamland state?

 

[valandil988]

To me is seems like Obito is trying to create a infinite tsukuyomi powered by the Sage's Creation of all things. There by actualy "creating" his dream world rather than just trapping everyone in a genjutsu which will kill them all eventually. Either that or they all become connected to the God-tree creating a pseudo Matrix.

So rather than it being a simple genjutsu like Madara initially showed Obito, Obito intends to make it a "true" reality.

 

[valandil988]

You highly misunderstand the way this jutsu works. I wonder if you've even been reading the manga at all.

It's not a different dimension jutsu. Do you really think Obito is so dumb he can't see the flaw you just stated? No, it's a mind controlling jutsu. Just like Koto Amatsukami, people go on living in the real world but they don't realize they're controlled by the God Tree.



You're just as good a demagog as Naruto. Indeed he speaks of friendship... much like any dictator speaks of victory. Naruto doesn't give any explanations. He makes nice rhetorical speeches embelished by words like "friendship and love", but if you remember his speech to Nagato, he never explains how he wants to achieve that. He doesn't give evidence or any sincere reason to follow him. He just discard's Nagato's solution as useless and manipulates him into the beauty of his words.

Again, Naruto doesn't give a damn about other people's opinions. Notice the vast difference between how he speaks to Sasuke and how Hashirama speaks to Madara. He doesn't care why Sasuke left the village, he just wants him back, and he doesn't care to know why Sasuke would want to become Hokage either.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Hashirama, however, is much more inclined to hear opinions and listen to Madara.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The point of this is just to show you how narrow minded Naruto really is. Having him as a leader is pretty much the same as having Obito as a leader. Itachi told him he was going the same road, and in spite Naruto saying he understood it, he still doesn't seem to have changed. Partly because of Kishimoto's unbalanced writing where 1 character is stronger than the entire alliance together, and partly because the character himself is stubborn and won't care about different opinions.

Naruto's road to peace is quite simple, and I can't believe you haven't gotten it by now. Its religious, its based on blind faith, its in his god damn catch phrase "believe it" (at least in anime), if everyone believes in him its a carte blanche because it means he will have everyone on "HIS" and everyone in the Shinobi world would "share" him as a common element. Eventually Naruto will probably either die or "die" IE he will fake his death creating a unified good will. Again its only temporary peace not real peace.

 

[RiaValkyre]

Many says here that freedom is not needed if you can live happy. Might be right, but let's ask if you really think it seriously.

Life is about happenings. You live to be happy, sad, fight and get. Life means nothing but to feel (also pain, also happiness).
On your deadly bed you will regret not doing anything you wanted, and not just vegetating stoned in an armchair like a bird in a golden cage. That is human nature.
The fusion of the two is the ideal reality, as it is mentioned above, there is no ultimte bad or good. That's what the whole story is about: fights of wills and not fights of black and white.


It is totally true that these, Obito's and Naruto's aims are the huge dilemma in life.

Let me say example: You are just starting your life after school, in a small town. You can move to a big town to achieve "big" things, experience more, meet foreigners so on, but live in stress because you dislike big cities. You will have few privacy but you can party, live big. You won't have long life probably, not as long as small-towners.
In this case, you can choose even a compnion with more possibility.... but not a dream life. Might sound like, but not 100%.

Or you can stay in your small town, get 2-3 friends, work a simple job and just live simply. This way you have your sweet memories around you, you are happy actually, but there will be a non-lasting pain always: "I wanted to live abroad bit" or "I wanted to earn much" or "I wanted to have a million friends". On your deadly bed you will feel sorry not to live this way but you will be happy after all!
It also seems wonderful but not 100% good.


I hope these helped.



Yes, they are figthing for a dilemma. But in this case, Obito wants surreal thing, a dreamworld to run away. You forgot this thing! Genjutsu is just genjutsu, not reality. Like Matrix

 

[Armathyx]

Naruto's road to peace is quite simple, and I can't believe you haven't gotten it by now. Its religious, its based on blind faith, its in his god damn catch phrase "believe it" (at least in anime), if everyone believes in him its a carte blanche because it means he will have everyone on "HIS" and everyone in the Shinobi world would "share" him as a common element. Eventually Naruto will probably either die or "die" IE he will fake his death creating a unified good will. Again its only temporary peace not real peace.

But blind faith is a bad thing. Blind faith is as big a delusion as Obito's fake reality.

If this war was a debate (which it partially is) Obito could prove Naruto wrong instantly and his blind faith would be completely worthless.

Like you say, it's a temporary peace. You acknowledge Naruto's solution just won't fix anything in the long term, simply because it just doesn't. In a society where people are so beligerant they end up at war whenever they're given the freedom to, the best option to stop wars is to have a strict ruler, there's no 100 ways around it. Democracy only works in a place where people are working together to reach a common goal.

 

[valandil988]

But blind faith is a bad thing. Blind faith is as big a delusion as Obito's fake reality.

If this war was a debate (which it partially is) Obito could prove Naruto wrong instantly and his blind faith would be completely worthless.

Like you say, it's a temporary peace. You acknowledge Naruto's solution just won't fix anything in the long term, simply because it just doesn't. In a society where people are so beligerant they end up at war whenever they're given the freedom to, the best option to stop wars is to have a strict ruler, there's no 100 ways around it. Democracy only works in a place where people are working together to reach a common goal.

You could argue Obito's plan isn't a complete fix either, as he is the Jutsu master he can't live forever, unless the Jutsu is as I've previously supposed a reality manipulation jutsu capable of make reality conform to his designs of peace forever...in which case Obito is right lol.

 

[saw2097]

To me is seems like Obito is trying to create a infinite tsukuyomi powered by the Sage's Creation of all things. There by actualy "creating" his dream world rather than just trapping everyone in a genjutsu which will kill them all eventually. Either that or they all become connected to the God-tree creating a pseudo Matrix.

So rather than it being a simple genjutsu like Madara initially showed Obito, Obito intends to make it a "true" reality.

That would defeat the very idea behind Infinite Tsukuyomi.

The idea behind it is that as long as people have free will they will be war, if it become reality then it just becomes another world for humans to wreck. Human nature will take over and it will be no different from the real world.

There would be just as much pain and suffering as in the real world.

Obito is stripping people of free will so he can force peace, being made into a real world as you said wouldn't make sense with Obito's goal.

Also Obito has said nothing about making it real anyway, he just wants to live in illusions like he has said a million times so this theory is implausible.