Restrictions: None. Info: Basic Manga Knowledge. Location: Great Naruto Bridge. Distance: 30 Meters. Judges: dkdankong, Nous, Penguin2640
Since this is a debate between ForbiddenTechnique and TheAncientCenturion, please refrain from posting any comments on the match up that might help either side.
Despite the fact that Zabuza himself regards Haku's capabilities to be above his own [
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
], I believe there are a few things concerning Haku, I must establish first.
Speed
I don't believe I need to spend too much time on this, as it should be quite evident who is superior in the speed department. Zabuza was absolutely flabbergasted that someone was beating Haku in speed [
You must be registered for see links
] even though Haku wasn't even showcasing his top-notch speed at that moment.
Sensory Abilities
I realize this was never confirmed within the manga, but it is more then likely that Haku possesses sensory abilities, as there is no other explanation as to how he was able to perceive Zabuzas sudden need of protection [
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
] Also, the fact that Haku was the only one among 3 other more experienced shinobi to notice an ambush attack [
You must be registered for see links
] strengthens my claim.
Silent Killing
According to Zabuza, he
You must be registered for see links
. Given the fact that Zabuza is most renown for his silent killing, it should be quite obvious that he taught Haku this said skill. This should be even more overly obvious seeing as Haku was able to attack an opponent in perfect unison with Zabuza within the thick blinding mist [
You must be registered for see links
] which should speak volumes for Haku's silent killing expertise. Where am I getting at with this? Zabuza gains no advantage over Haku with the Hidden Mist Jutsu, a technique he so much relies on.
Haku on the Offensive
You must be registered for see images
Given the fact that Zabuza and Haku have manga knowledge on each other, which is essentially full knowledge, Haku's ability to come up with a counter to a technique after analyzing it once, comes into play here[
You must be registered for see links
]; as Haku has had to of seen Zabuzas techniques numerous times already.
With that being said; With Hakus superior speed, Hyōton [Ice Release], and the ability to utilize the hidden mist just as effectively as Zabuza; the latters entire arsenal is essentially countered. Soon as Haku gets serious and decides to use his Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals, it's pretty much over for Zabuza. His only method of trying to avoid this technique is through the hidden mist, but as I had already established, Haku is capable of tracking down targets as well as what it seems to be sensory abilities, so I don't see how Zabuza is avoiding this. It takes just a few seconds to get all 21 mirrors up [
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
] and Zabuza has no way of getting out. Seeing as a katon couldn't even impair the ice mirrors, Zabuzas suiton doesn't stand a chance of breaking through. Mizu Bunshins (which were slaughtered by Sasuke) make no difference whats so ever [
You must be registered for see links
]. Haku will then send senbon piercing right through Zabuzas vital organs, eventually killing him.
*Just getting my feet wet with all this. I'd like to see the course of action the opposition takes before going further into detail.
Re: [Fapping Technique vs. TheAnalFapturion] Haku vs. Zabuza
Rebuttal
You must be registered for see images
Speed
You're suggesting that Haku is superior to Zabuza in speed? While, I won't lie that Haku has a jutsu or two that makes him faster then Zabuza. In the regards of pure speed, they are tied according to the DataBooks.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
On another note, Zabuza was able to keep up with a famous sharingan wielding shinobi such as Kakashi. Haku was having trouble with Sasuke prior to the re-awakening of his own sharingan. If anything, Zabuza is equal to or superior then Haku when it comes to speed. Not including the jutsu that Haku has, allowing him to move at a much quicker pace then he normally is capable of.
"Sensing"
I won't give this much time to delve into. One of the points you have to help suggest this is the Edo Haku feat of him noticing the attack from above. It clearly says here that
You must be registered for see links
. That's how he came to realize an attack would be coming along with smoke signals. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
Silent Killing
While I understand what you're saying here, I can't help but shake my head. Haku might have some skills in the field but it's clear that Zabuza's leaps and bounds ahead of Haku, and a
You must be registered for see links
To go about and say that Zabuza gains no advantage simply because Haku has some experience is purely wrong. This jutsu gives Zabuza a clear fire way to gaining victory over his young, but talented tool.
Et Ego Non Vidi, Vici
Your description on how the battle will play out is almost disgusting, Forbidden Technique. Not only is Haku inferior when it comes to the art of Silent Killing, but the speeds are actually near the same level or slightly shifted in Zabuza's favor. Now, what will likely happen in this scenario is that Zabuza will initiate the Hidden Mist jutsu and shroud the playing field in a mist not capable of seeing through. It's not debatable that Zabuza will get this jutsu off.
You must be registered for see links
Once this happens, Zabuza the shinobi who can find his opponents based on sound alone is controlling the battlefield. Now, while it's clear that Haku is a formidable foe and, if trapped in close range, can end the fight with the Demonic Ice Mirrors. Zabuza, luckily has intel on Haku's entire jutsu arsenal, being his teacher. He will start off by engaging with a group of Mizu Bunshin; Aiming to force Haku to use the Demonic Ice Mirrors.
How will this force Haku to handle his opponent in such a way? The Mizu Bunshin coming from different angles and blind spots in the mist, all with Kubikiribōchō aimed to kill. Now, this strategy works out rather well for Zabuza. His Mizu Bunshin either find a blind spot and deal a damaging or lethal blow towards Haku, or Haku's forced to use his most chakra exhaustion technique he has. Which, is one way Zabuza may gain victory.
There are a few other ways Zabuza can go about this, just to say. Mizu Bunshin ambushing or a similar tactic Zabuza used on Kakashi in their first encounter nearly ensures Zabuza's victory. By this, I mean to say that allowing Haku to engage with several Mizu Bunshin before the real Zabuza reveals himself to deal a crushing blow or perform the Water Prison technique and drown Haku. Either way, the end result for the Yuki is the same. Death.
Re: [Fapping Technique vs. TheAnalFapturion] Haku vs. Zabuza
I wonder how Hidden Mist would fare vs Ice Mirrors... Should be an interesting matchup if you guys somehow figure out how to incorporate that into your debate.
You're suggesting that Haku is superior to Zabuza in speed? While, I won't lie that Haku has a jutsu or two that makes him faster then Zabuza. In the regards of pure speed, they are tied according to the DataBooks.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
On another note, Zabuza was able to keep up with a famous sharingan wielding shinobi such as Kakashi. Haku was having trouble with Sasuke prior to the re-awakening of his own sharingan. If anything, Zabuza is equal to or superior then Haku when it comes to speed. Not including the jutsu that Haku has, allowing him to move at a much quicker pace then he normally is capable of.
"Sensing"
I won't give this much time to delve into. One of the points you have to help suggest this is the Edo Haku feat of him noticing the attack from above. It clearly says here that
You must be registered for see links
. That's how he came to realize an attack would be coming along with smoke signals. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
Silent Killing
While I understand what you're saying here, I can't help but shake my head. Haku might have some skills in the field but it's clear that Zabuza's leaps and bounds ahead of Haku, and a
You must be registered for see links
To go about and say that Zabuza gains no advantage simply because Haku has some experience is purely wrong. This jutsu gives Zabuza a clear fire way to gaining victory over his young, but talented tool.
Et Ego Non Vidi, Vici
Your description on how the battle will play out is almost disgusting, Forbidden Technique. Not only is Haku inferior when it comes to the art of Silent Killing, but the speeds are actually near the same level or slightly shifted in Zabuza's favor. Now, what will likely happen in this scenario is that Zabuza will initiate the Hidden Mist jutsu and shroud the playing field in a mist not capable of seeing through. It's not debatable that Zabuza will get this jutsu off.
You must be registered for see links
Once this happens, Zabuza the shinobi who can find his opponents based on sound alone is controlling the battlefield. Now, while it's clear that Haku is a formidable foe and, if trapped in close range, can end the fight with the Demonic Ice Mirrors. Zabuza, luckily has intel on Haku's entire jutsu arsenal, being his teacher. He will start off by engaging with a group of Mizu Bunshin; Aiming to force Haku to use the Demonic Ice Mirrors.
How will this force Haku to handle his opponent in such a way? The Mizu Bunshin coming from different angles and blind spots in the mist, all with Kubikiribōchō aimed to kill. Now, this strategy works out rather well for Zabuza. His Mizu Bunshin either find a blind spot and deal a damaging or lethal blow towards Haku, or Haku's forced to use his most chakra exhaustion technique he has. Which, is one way Zabuza may gain victory.
There are a few other ways Zabuza can go about this, just to say. Mizu Bunshin ambushing or a similar tactic Zabuza used on Kakashi in their first encounter nearly ensures Zabuza's victory. By this, I mean to say that allowing Haku to engage with several Mizu Bunshin before the real Zabuza reveals himself to deal a crushing blow or perform the Water Prison technique and drown Haku. Either way, the end result for the Yuki is the same. Death.
You're accusation that Zabuzas speed being equal to or superior to Hakus even without the enhancement of his jutsu is rather fallacious. As I already mentioned, Zabuza couldn't believe that someone was beating Haku in speed, which, I would think, should make it obvious that Zabuza himself couldn't even compete. But I guess not. So I'll dig a little deeper. Baring Zabuzas disbelief, the fact that Haku was holding back the whole time, and part one Sasukes DB entry in speed being a
You must be registered for see links
while Hakus is a 4; It shouldn't even be in question whether Haku was displaying his top notch foot speed at that very moment or not. The answer is, he simply wasn't. So the Zabuza keeping up with Kakashi while Haku couldn't do so with Sasuke comparison should be thrown right out the window. Also, let me point out that just because Haku and Zabuza have the same DB entry in speed, it doesn't equate to Zabuza being >/= to Haku in that category. Not in the slightest, as Itachi and Kurenai both have the same DB entry in genjutsu, and they're not on the same level at all! So again, Haku>Zabuza in pure speed, not even including Hakus jutsu enhanced speed.
If you're going to discredit my claim that Haku has sensory abilities, then you should of aimed to discredit my main and most important example, not just something I used as back up, as you really didn't discredit it at all. Haku didn't spot the birds until after the initial ambush attack. Hence why in
You must be registered for see links
very scan he mentioned it was clear where the enemy would attack from, by distinguishing the type of bird combined with the smoke signal. The
You must be registered for see links
came after the first
You must be registered for see links
. So, no that is not how he realized the first initial attack. Then there is the fact that this attack came from up above and Haku was looking straight ahead as was everyone else who didn't notice it [
You must be registered for see links
].
So despite me providing a scan of Haku attacking in unison with Zabuza within the mist, you're just going to severely downplay Hakus prowess and experience with silent killing? He doesn't need to have as much hype and experience as Zabuzu with this said skill in order to be on par. In addition to his ability to sense out Zabuza, Haku's superior speed, reaction time, jutsu, and analyzing skills more then compensates and makes it an even playing field, or at the very least, allows Haku to hold his own.
Acupuncture
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I'm hoping this doesn't end up as a conjecture throughout the entire debate, but Zabuza is not faster then Haku. And to say those washed down Mizu Bunshins will pressure Haku in such a way is quite ridiculous. At just 1/10th of Zabuzas power, those bunshins are utter crap; incapable of accomplishing anything as Sasuke absolutely outmaneuvered and slaughtered like 7+ mizu bunshins within a split second before they were even able to react [
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
] and that was even within the mist [
You must be registered for see links
]. Against Haku, who has experience with silent killing, who is faster then Sasuke [According to the DB], and who has shown far far greater reaction time, those mizu bunshins should be an absolute cake walk. And while I'm at it, your water prison tactic will never work either. Not only is it highly unlikely that Haku would even caught within one, but it's completely futile even if he did. The mirrors would simply
You must be registered for see links
Haku out of the water prison and allow him to swiftly deal a finishing blow on Zabuza as he has to remain stationary in contact with the water prison. So that is a terrible tactic.
As I mentioned in my opening, when Haku activates his Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals, it's practically over for Zabuza, and I still stand by it. It's rather odd seeing as your aim is to pressure Haku into using it; but there is a reason why Zabuza regards himself to be inferior to Haku and this jutsu is that reason. Allow me to explain how fast and terrifying this technique can be.
Naruto was charging Haku simultaneously with Kakashi charging Zabuza
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Then Haku senses or perceives Zabuza being in danger within the mist
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
And almost instantly transports in front of Zabuza via the Demonic Ice Mirrors before Kakashi could even strike Zabuza with his raikiri (Keep in mind Kakashi was just a few meters away from Zabuza to begin with [
You must be registered for see links
])
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
All the while Haku already being exhausted from his scuffle with Sasuke and Naruto.
Such incredible speed coupled with the fact that Haku can sense Zabuza out within the mist; Zabuza simply doesn't have a chance to even react, especially seeing as Kakashis sharingan wasn't even able to pick up on it. The end result being;
You're accusation that Zabuzas speed being equal to or superior to Hakus even without the enhancement of his jutsu is rather fallacious. As I already mentioned, Zabuza couldn't believe that someone was beating Haku in speed, which, I would think, should make it obvious that Zabuza himself couldn't even compete. But I guess not. So I'll dig a little deeper. Baring Zabuzas disbelief, the fact that Haku was holding back the whole time, and part one Sasukes DB entry in speed being a
You must be registered for see links
while Hakus is a 4; It shouldn't even be in question whether Haku was displaying his top notch foot speed at that very moment or not. The answer is, he simply wasn't. So the Zabuza keeping up with Kakashi while Haku couldn't do so with Sasuke comparison should be thrown right out the window. Also, let me point out that just because Haku and Zabuza have the same DB entry in speed, it doesn't equate to Zabuza being >/= to Haku in that category. Not in the slightest, as Itachi and Kurenai both have the same DB entry in genjutsu, and they're not on the same level at all! So again, Haku>Zabuza in pure speed, not even including Hakus jutsu enhanced speed.
Let's begin with the bold. That's like saying that Gai would be shocked that someone can compete with Lee in speed, around his own age group. As far as Zabuza knows, Haku is exceptional for his age and these kids were shaking at his mere presence not a week ago. To use his surprise that his student was out done as evidence is just weak.
Your Databook stats are useless here, as those are and have always been more geared towards a characters own personal scores and how they excel in certain areas. Unless Itachi and Kurneai are equals in genjutsu, of course. Sasuke's lower speed stat is meant to show he can improve upon himself, as all characters can unless they reach their peak which is a five. Kishi even took stats out because of how irrelevant they were. So, no.
Unless you want me to get a scan of Kakashi out foxing a faster Sasuke, and tying him down. Whereas Sasuke has shown development in speed, Kakashi hasn't in part 1. Meaning that Zabuza is capable of the same maneuver as Kakashi, on a quicker Sasuke. So, fun times. Haku's speed outside of his mirrors is nothing to gawk at.
If you're going to discredit my claim that Haku has sensory abilities, then you should of aimed to discredit my main and most important example, not just something I used as back up, as you really didn't discredit it at all. Haku didn't spot the birds until after the initial ambush attack. Hence why in
You must be registered for see links
very scan he mentioned it was clear where the enemy would attack from, by distinguishing the type of bird combined with the smoke signal. The
You must be registered for see links
came after the first
You must be registered for see links
. So, no that is not how he realized the first initial attack. Then there is the fact that this attack came from up above and Haku was looking straight ahead as was everyone else who didn't notice it [
You must be registered for see links
].
So despite me providing a scan of Haku attacking in unison with Zabuza within the mist, you're just going to severely downplay Hakus prowess and experience with silent killing? He doesn't need to have as much hype and experience as Zabuzu with this said skill in order to be on par. In addition to his ability to sense out Zabuza, Haku's superior speed, reaction time, jutsu, and analyzing skills more then compensates and makes it an even playing field, or at the very least, allows Haku to hold his own.
Haku isn't a sensor. Enhanced senses, such as what Kakashi has? Perhaps. Sensor? No. Despite Haku even revealing how s
You must be registered for see links
, you persist it's sensing? She's very observant, not someone who can feel the chakra.
Haku hearing the chakra coming from the lightning blade is another example. She knows Zabuza has nothing in her arsenal. Her running to his aid based off this alone is reason to ignore the sensor rubbish you're on about. Prove more scans, or be quiet.
Attacking together=/=Zabuza's peak in silent killing.
Ever think it's more valuable to have another attack with you, instead of going in alone to battle? It's like saying that Kakashi was running at the 6th gate Gai speed, instead of Gai just keeping it around Kakashi's level so they can fight as a pair. Zabuza could be moving at a quicker pace, as there is no reason to believe Haku is now on Part 1 Kakashi's foot speed, who was much faster than a Sasuke that moved at comparable speeds to Lee.
But the wanks continues. He may be able to not be lost in the mist. But, with several Zabuza clones and the real one moving in, one mistake means the end for Haku as the rest would jump on her. I mean, you could say Haku just throws the senbon at them all. But, the large beheading blade can be moved to block the attacks perfectly. Unless Haku focuses on one, or resorts to the demon mirrors. It'a GG.
Acupuncture
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
I'm hoping this doesn't end up as a conjecture throughout the entire debate, but Zabuza is not faster then Haku. And to say those washed down Mizu Bunshins will pressure Haku in such a way is quite ridiculous. At just 1/10th of Zabuzas power, those bunshins are utter crap; incapable of accomplishing anything as Sasuke absolutely outmaneuvered and slaughtered like 7+ mizu bunshins within a split second before they were even able to react [
You must be registered for see links
-
You must be registered for see links
] and that was even within the mist [
You must be registered for see links
]. Against Haku, who has experience with silent killing, who is faster then Sasuke [According to the DB], and who has shown far far greater reaction time, those mizu bunshins should be an absolute cake walk. And while I'm at it, your water prison tactic will never work either. Not only is it highly unlikely that Haku would even caught within one, but it's completely futile even if he did. The mirrors would simply
You must be registered for see links
Haku out of the water prison and allow him to swiftly deal a finishing blow on Zabuza as he has to remain stationary in contact with the water prison. So that is a terrible tactic.
Acupuncture
The Mizu Bunshin are more valuable than you realize. Haku's not going to be able to tell which is the real one, Zabuza's senses are impeccable as he will perceive the senbon or Haku flying at any one clone. The rest can make their move then. Any mirrors that pop out will be heard just as easily forming. Who says that the real Zabuza will be the one holding down Haku? What stops Zabuza from stabbing at Haku while in the water prison? Or covering the real one? Or, what stops him from canceling it the second he hears or sees Haku get away?
This is awfully convenient for Haku to get away with so much, whereas Zabuza can't do much to him.
As I mentioned in my opening, when Haku activates his Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals, it's practically over for Zabuza, and I still stand by it. It's rather odd seeing as your aim is to pressure Haku into using it; but there is a reason why Zabuza regards himself to be inferior to Haku and this jutsu is that reason. Allow me to explain how fast and terrifying this technique can be.
Naruto was charging Haku simultaneously with Kakashi charging Zabuza
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Then Haku senses or perceives Zabuza being in danger within the mist
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
And almost instantly transports in front of Zabuza via the Demonic Ice Mirrors before Kakashi could even strike Zabuza with his raikiri (Keep in mind Kakashi was just a few meters away from Zabuza to begin with [
Absolutely worthless. I am aware of Haku's Space time, as is Zabuza. This won't do much in the long run. Mizu Bunshin can be casually made in the mist and dispersed to confuse Haku. Unless she resorts to the mirrors for each of them, they'll continue coming and allow Zabuza and any clone not targetted to pounce. Her being able to escape doesn't do much when Zabuza himself is able to move at considerable speeds all the time, not just when under the effects of a jutsu. The clones can be made again if Haku makes a counter strike. Water Dragon ends this handily. Naruto, not strong himself, with a bit of kyuubi chakra can bust a mirror. To assume that the water dragon won't do the same is the utmost wank, when in the past they've been shown to carry Susano'o away.
Inb4 it was Mei's. Unless she has special chakra, the technique is the same and of similar sizes. The speed in which it is done is the only different.
All the while Haku already being exhausted from his scuffle with Sasuke and Naruto.
Such incredible speed coupled with the fact that Haku can sense Zabuza out within the mist; Zabuza simply doesn't have a chance to even react, especially seeing as Kakashis sharingan wasn't even able to pick up on it. The end result being;
I addressed all this above, I won't repeat myself. Haku's normal speed is tiers below Zabuza's, and with Mizu Bunshin, Zabuza's able to wear down her if she resorts to the demon mirrors. If/when he gets the chance, Water dragon tears everything apart.
