Okay. So the vibration of the air causes not only pressure waves, but like you said, the clone to vibrate internally. You can vibrate a tree, can't you? Enough so to internally split the wood? Vibration can work on solid objects. Whether or not the clone feels pain (and clones have been shown to show pain countless times) doesn't really matter too much; the vibration still effects it and severely hinders movement.
Vibrating a tree isn't going to cause it pain nor is it going to split it, not to mention there is no proof White Rage vibrates fast enough to do so when
I read your post. And you have yet to provide believable proof that Hashirama could sense the movements of two separate attackers while under the debilitating effects of white rage, or even normally for that matter as your only evidence to the contrary is a young Hashirama failing to use a rudimentary sensing technique that every ninja possesses.
I already provided two scans that prove he can sense chakra, here is another one coming up. If you want to keep up this up then fine by me, I'll go discuss with someone who can actually read a manga page.
He senses the volume of Naruto's chakra, compares it to his own, and then later senses that the Yin Kyuubi's chakra is also involved along with Naruto's.
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Are you still going to tell me he can't sense chakra?
What? Tobirama uses the chakra sensing technique and tells him that he is better at it than Hashirama. Result? Hashirama can also sense chakra but not at Tobirama's level. If you actually read the scan you would know this, or maybe your reading comprehension is just that terrible
See what you're saying about Hashirama making more clones. I still think in the moment after they defeat his clone they can tell where Hashirama is before he makes more. Shouldn't be a problem for sensors the level of Nagato and Kabuto to keep track of him after that.
Where did I even say he'd hide?
lol you're funny. That's Tobirama who sensed his brother's cells in Oro. And Tobirama is basically the best sensor in the series (you could argue for Karin though). Again, Hashirama failed to sense his own brother following him. And you're going to have to show me some evidence that Hashirama ever developed his sensing in base to tell where people are. Until then, if he's not using senjutsu (i.e. at the start of the battle when Kabuto uses hakugeki) then there's no way he can tell where Nagato and Kabuto are.
I'm not even sure if serious with this nonsense. Like I said, terrible reading comprehension is terrible.
-Hashirama states that Oro increased the restraining power with this cells, before Tobirama noted it on the next panel. Meaning? That Hashirama sensed it first hence him being able to tell Oro's body was made of his cells. You have eyes and a brain for a reason, use them.
-Kid Hashirama failed to see Tobirama sensing him, you better have some proof that his sensing back then is equivalent to his sensing now, cause 3 scans in this manga prove you wrong.
First of all, you just proved CT is bigger.
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Compare the size of the mountains to what you're looking at. I'm serious; open them both and flip between them. CT is
way bigger. And I said the buddha
wouldn't break apart; read more closely. While the buddha's hand attack might have enough
power to damage that small CT,
they can't actually hit it; it's above them and the hands are already fully extended upwards. There's no way they can reach any further into the air to hit the CT, and beside
s the buddha would be pulled into the underside of CT, crushing the hands.
And finally, this is a
half-made CT created by a dying Nagato-- that he himself said he could make larger. In this battle we're talking full-powered, healthy Nagato. I'd say he can make a CT several times larger with ease. Trust me, there's no way Hashi's beating it.[/QUOTE]
Ok, Agreed that its larger, but, it can be destroyed like it was in the manga, before it reached full size.
@bold: The Buddha is being pulled up toward the orb, and it's hands were long enough to extend from far above Mountains down to the ground to hit Madara's Perfect Susanoo, that, combined with the gravitational pull means that he is getting to that orb before its full sized. Don't where this "it'll be crushed by crashing into CT" nonsense is coming from, but its not happening, crashing into a giant rock isn't going to break a statue that plowed through 11 Bijuu Dama blades and still had enough power to smash open Perfect Susanoo.
Chibaku Tensei is easily broken through, not to mention 50% Kyuubi broke out of it, Shinsuusenju would shit on it.
Not to mention
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to make Chibaku Tensei, if Hashirama responds by slamming a gate on him he's pretty much screwed.
Half made is baseless. Weaker? Yes, Half made? Proof? You are going to need some kind of evidence to say he can make a Chibaku Tensei
many times larger than the one he displayed through Pain. Not saying he can't make a larger one but to say the bold with no evidence besides the fact he can make it stronger isn't working here.
Nagato wasn't dying when he used Chibaku Tensei, not in this manga.
CT is no threat.
Flowering tree world is a non-issue here. Kabuto's allies could destroy it with ease; if you remember, Oonoki did it in the manga. Muu with jinton just like Oonoki, Nagato with missiles, st, laser, etc etc.
Flower Tree World isn't meant to be used in a fight with Hashirama and Mu, so what are you even talking about here? Also, lol @ Nagato's missiles or lasers destroying a forest as large as Flower Tree World when their best feats are destroying buildings in Konoha.
Okay, first of all, that's a susano'o arrow, the speed of which Kakashi couldn't avoid without kamui (and Kabuto was able to avoid others anyway). Secondly, in your own example:
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You showed that even after being hit Kabuto could later turn to liquid and reform if he wanted to. Besides the fact that Kabuto was talking and there was no need to reform immediately, the reality is he was going into dsm and that takes time, as we've seen sm techs need time for the user to collect nature chakra. Normally Kabuto can reform right away; you showed that in your other example.
That was shown to clarify he needs time to liquefy, if Kabuto gets hit before he can become liquid, by a strong enough attack, he's going to die, unless you think he's going to tank attacks these strong in Sage Mode.
You clearly misinterpreted the point of that post, I showed that to clarfiy it takes time for him to liquefy not to turn back to normal, so the rest of your post has no bearing here.
Thank you for that; I didn't remember him dropping a gate on someone. I was mistaken. A few things, though. One I believe that may be tailored for sealing bijuu powers, and two, more importantly, you can see that the gate isn't exceptionally fast. I'd say it drops with the speed of gravity at most, and Obito didn't avoid it because he didn't need to; obviously he could do so if he needed. So, in other words, a fast human could easily avoid the gate because it's made for a very large bijuu target that won't be able to avoid it. It's still a troublesome tech because they'd need to be on their guard at all times, but one I'm not sure Hashirama will have time to be dropping gates if he has these two attacking him at once, and two from what I can tell it takes at least a little time to work according to Hashirama so there is a very significant chance Nagato just st's it off himself. If you don't agree, well, Nagato has the reflexes to st it while it's still in the air above him, no prob. Gates aren't as much of an issue in this battle as you make them out to be.
-No, the gates are physical restraints, they don't seal anything so they can be used on anyone.
-They don't need to be fast to catch a ninja with limited mobility. (Nagato) Your point?
-Not even mentioning the fact that he has clones, you think that Hashirama isnt going to have time to make a handsign? Cause that is all Myoujinmon takes, a hand sign. If so, then lol @ you.
Nagato has a 5 second limit and Hashirama can drop multiple gates at once as shown in my scan, do the math. He still gets bound anyway, and nothing short of a CST is tossing
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piled on top of him off. Not a chance.
I lol'd at you trying to reduce this battle down to a few moves that can be countered.
I lol'd @ your counters.
Well aoe is only a good counter to speed if one the space is enclosed, and two if the aoe is an attack like say a poison cloud, fire cloud, etc.. But an earth attack can easily be used at footholds to leap among the attacks in a way that one wouldn't exactly be able to do with a blast of fire. You can see this type of thing when Obito is battling Kakashi, Gai, and Naruto amidst the flying rubble.
Why I mention them both.... is because there's two of them. A lot of people don't seem to realize the implications of a 2 on 1 battle. The 2 will be using teamwork while the 1 is unable to do so. This is why I usually see battles in favor of multiple opponents when they are battling a solo fighter if of course the solo isn't quite a bit more powerful. So if you're suggesting that Kabuto just stands and watches while Nagato is attacked by Hashi or while Nagato battles Hashi then I'm going to have to say you're mistaken there.
I said Hotei would be coming at Nagato and you said Kabuto would easily evade it, what does teamwork have to do with you saying Kabuto is going to evade an attack that Hashirama launched at Nagato? If you are using teamwork here, you would have told me how Kabuto counters and not that he'd easily evade it.
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Watch how despite Bee being struck from the front, Nagato is behind him before he even hits the ground. Bee lariats, yes, but I never said Nagato was
faster than v2 Bee and he knows he can always rely on preta path so he can take hits in close quarters.
-B was hit by Shinra Tensei and Nagato jumped behind him. Does that mean he kept up with B? No, obviously not.
-B lariated him and landed a hit, does that mean he kept up with B? Obviously not, him getting hit is proof of that.
Nagato never kept up with B in speed.
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Before Naruto in km, with badass reflexes, can even react, Nagato was on him and sucking out his soul in an instant.
Through these several pages you can see him fighting on par with those two's speed. Not saying he's equal to theirs, but certainly his movement and reaction time are beastly.
You can't be serious here. Go re-read that scan again. Naruto jumped down and the invisible chameleon caught him, restrained him so Nagato could get to him, its not that he couldn't react, he couldn't move. Not to mention this is Naruto jumping down towards Nagato, nowhere was speed used by him in this scan, not when he was running.
His movement speed is nothing special.
Nagato's five second limit poses little problems when he's edo with all powers in one body. If he doesn't use lasers, missiles, cannons (type he used against Bee) or use a summon as a sacrifice to block an attack, then he takes partial damage and reforms because he's edo anyway. Already told you how he could beat flower tree world.
Lasers, missiles, and cannons best feats are destroying buildings. You are going to need more destructive feats to say they are overpowering Hotei, Jukai Kotan, or anything of the sort, cause feats disagree.
Summons would get plowed along with Nagato so there is no point in that, they aren't tanking it for him.
Then Hashirama pins him with a gate while he reforms pretty much ending his involvement in this fight.
Well the missiles are definitely an issue here; they certainly would phase although no, of course they wouldn't defeat. I see them stopping and blowing off fingers of hands, destroying mokuton, and are especially devastating in rapid succession. And you seem to have forgotten Nagato's laser, which is basically an utter destruction of everything around him, good for attack, and defense in case his st is recharging and for some reason he actually cares about getting hit despite the fact that he's edo.
Get back to me when the best feat of Nagato's cannons and missiles aren't destroying simple buildings in Konoha. Going by what the manga has shown, Mokuton effortlessly tanks.
Well I'm not saying summons are a key element but they're definitely very useful. Nagato can sacrifice them to block attacks, do some damage before, yes, they are inevitably crushed, and then of course we have the dog who's heads multiply with damage. I see the dog growing exponentially and to stop him Hashirama would have to use the gates, using up a lot of his concentration and most likely removing the option of him using them to oppress his opponents.
Using summonings to block attacks that are this strong with such a large scale is like picking up a small shield to defend against a giant explosion, its not going to work, especially since the summons don't work as shield to begin with, the wood would plow right through them and hit Nagato.
Dogs don't grow, the split, the more the split the smaller they get thus the weaker they get, they are no threat when they can be restrained by Mokuton.
Again, not wrong until you prove that Hashirama can actually chakra sense as an adult without senjutsu well enough to tell two separate, high speed opponents while he can't hear, see, and his entire body is vibrating.
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Just look at this. The ninja have time to
talk while the mokuton is coming at them.
Gaara's sand =/= mokuton. Gaara's sand is infinitely more malleable and versatile, there's no way Hashirama is just surprise catching a small, fast target. His mokuton is for large attacks and restraining beasts. Good for summons if you want to go that route.
Is this a joke? I'm talking about Mokuton sprouting from underneath him and you get me a scan of him sending Mokuton at them from his own standing point, to their destination...flawed comparison is obviously flawed.
So Muu gets airborne. Glad you agree, because he
does not have to go visible to use jinton. Just look at the battle vs Gaara, Naruto, and Oonoki.
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He goes visible because Gaara reveals him with sand; he's been revealed and they know exactly where he is; what point would there be at all to go back invisible if they already know where he is and Gaara's sensor sand is everywhere anyway? Muu's already visible and he starts jinton, but he certainly doesn't need to be. I've had to prove this to many people. Even if the erroneous assumptions were correct I'd like to know how Hashirama stops an unblockable jinton from a Muu way up in the air where his mokuton, hands, or buddha will ever reach.
Why would he turn visible just because sensor sand has caught him? That makes no sense when he can just use Jinton while invisible, allowing him to get a surprise attack in since they have absolutely no way of seeing what he's doing. He became visible because he needs to in order to use Jinton.
Not to mention he isn't using a technique that requires chakra while invisible, as invisible hides his chakra, if he uses a technique his chakra is revealed.
Hmm, lets see, he can simply merge with the environment and escape Jinton once its fired. Mu isn't going to hit him and is simply wasting his chakra. The higher he goes the easier it is for Hashirama to evade. Also, if he goes up out of Buddha's reach (Not needed to beat Mu anyway) then he isn't going to see let alone hit Hashirama with Jinton, considering Buddha dwarfs Mountains.
Well I was saying ways for them to determine a clone, so the fact that it turns back to wood is the whole point. And all they'd need is a nick. But I can see them damaging a clone without too much hassle, esp with hakugeki.
Like I said, they only turn back when killed, your point is moot.
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Nagato can sense chakra.
Pretty sure it's an innate uzumaki tech unless you show me somewhere where Karin uses hand seals to activate it.
And Kabuto picked up the abilities of: Oro, the sound five, and the taka, including Karin. So he can sense and even if he couldn't with her tech, he can in sage mode.
Nagato can sense chakra cause he knows the chakra sensing technique. Its as simple as that. I see no proof here that he can use Karin's technique unless you think a scan of Nagato sensing chakra is one, if so then I'm gonna have to stop taking you seriously.
You are going to need proof he has access to all her techniques, he has only shown her healing that comes from her genes and that's it. Nothing else.
Karin using her technique.
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-Proof that Nagato or Kabuto can use this technique?
-Proof that Kabuto got access to her Minds Eye of Kagura Technique?
-Proof its even an Uzumaki technique to begin with?
None of the above exist so you are wrong.
