His Chameleon was carrying him around, Nagato on his own has zero speed feats.
Bringer of Darkness is Genjutsu, so Rinnegan seeing chakra won't help here. It being the next evolution of EMS (Which is false btw) isn't helping here as Rinnegan doesn't have the feat of seeing through Genjutsu like Sharingan does.
He'll know its coming, but with no sight and zero knowledge on the technique, he's not going to know that it constantly expels sleep pollen, so he won't know how to counter at all.
If a gate is dropped on each of their heads, then they won't be able to split apart thus they can't escape the gates. Not to mention Hotei no Jutsu created
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, they'd effortlessly dwarf and restrain the dog.
Summonings aren't protecting him from things like Jukai Kotan and Flower Tree World, and Nagato can't even use Shadow Clones. Don't bring that scan here cause that was him imagining himself as the main character of Jiraiya's book.
His summoning was carrying him when he used Shinra tensie, but when he got behind Killer Bee that his speed. Second, the OP most likely made the match as healthy Nagato which means his speed equals to his pains.
Do you know how genjutsu works? Hashirama chakra if flowing around his genjutsu to spread out. Rinnegan already has shown the ability to see chakra as seen in invasion of pain meaning it can see the genjutsu. Ahhh he doesn't need knowledge on the techniques when he knows where they are coming from. The pollen was visible and gokage could see it. Saying that Nagato wont see it when he has one of the greatest visions is BS. He will see the pollen and all of Hashi techniques thanks to his Rain jutsu that allows him to sense the environment so Mokuton techniques are sensed easily.
how are they gonna restrain the dogs when they are basically keep splitting as shown when Bunta sat on them with his tremendous weight yet they divided again. We also have Nagato statement that dogs will just keep dividing no matter what. Hotei no jutsu and gates are not gonna stop them from dividing. Hashirama has to actually hit Nagato so his dogs can stop
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where is your evidence that they wont? The bird can carry Nagato up high allowing him to use CT. Hashirama hasn't shown anything to get him up high other than Shinsuusenju which is restricted in this match up. I would like to also note, that his Animal Rinnegan summoning are immortal as well meaning Nagato can summon them every time they disappear. Lol WTF? Nagato using Shadow Clonse Jutsu in his imagination is considered as feats so he is granted with it.
That life force is converted into a source in the ground. When Yamato uses Mokuton from his arms for example, the databook explains that this technique is based on a rapid reproduction of his own cells. This principle actually appears to all Mokuton techniques, which have their origin in Hashirama's cells.
If there was no chakra in the trees, or any Mokuton variant for that matter, they would grow aimlessly with the user possessing no authority over them whatsoever.
Preta-Path is as effective against Mokuton as against others in Taijutsu combat. Hashirama converts his Chakra into source of life to create wood. Even if it comes to absorbing the Chakra of a single tendril, the source of the Chakra under the earth will remain active; Hashirama would still control the forest by stimulating the Chakra again. Preta-Path is useless against Mokuton. The masses would crush Nagato before he's able to successfully activate Gakido in the instant of getting in touch with them. And absorbing any Chakra out of it would be of no meaning as I said, Hashirama would just stimulate the growth again and send new Chakra into the tendrils.
As for scenario 1, any means of flying would be inverted by dropping the gates from above. The masses of wood Hashirama can create, would catch Nagato even if flying, at least when with the bird, if seeing how Hashirama can create a wood statue of titanic proportions like Shinsusenjuu.
Preta-Path is as effective against Mokuton as against others in Taijutsu combat. Hashirama converts his Chakra into source of life to create wood. Even if it comes to absorbing the Chakra of a single tendril, the source of the Chakra under the earth will remain active; Hashirama would still control the forest by stimulating the Chakra again. Preta-Path is useless against Mokuton. The masses would crush Nagato before he's able to successfully activate Gakido in the instant of getting in touch with them. And absorbing any Chakra out of it would be of no meaning as I said, Hashirama would just stimulate the growth again and send new Chakra into the tendrils.
As for scenario 1, any means of flying would be inverted by dropping the gates from above. The masses of wood Hashirama can create, would catch Nagato even if flying, at least when with the bird, if seeing how Hashirama can create a wood statue of titanic proportions like Shinsusenjuu.
Shinsuusenju is towering mountains dude. In Sage Mode, there would be no problem for him to create a mass of tendrils which would reach that size as well.
Shinsuusenju is towering mountains dude. In Sage Mode, there would be no problem for him to create a mass of tendrils which would reach that size as well.
And that's where Muki Tensei would be most effective, surely. Kabuto could then manipulate the gates to suit both of their needs; namely, making them 'grow' off on Nagato or having them turn against Hashirama. They'd certainly be troublesome, yes. But they wouldn't be the potential game breakers for me.
Yeah, but you are forgetting Flower Tree World, which would be used as soon as Nagato is pinned. The Flower World would most definitely knock Kabuto out before he ever reached Hashirama's gates, as he needs to make contact with whatever he is aiming to infuse his life force with to control.
But Madara didn't aim for the source of the pollen, which would undoubtedly house the most concentrated areas. Causal uses of Shinra Tensei would be able to buy Nagato some time. That, or Gedō Mazō's shockwaves.
Even if Nagato made this explosion, wouldn't he end up hurting himself?
Sure, it'll buy him 5 seconds, cause the pollen is being continuously produced, he'd end up getting knocked out during his 5 second interval.
I've reason to believe Nagato can't utilize Gedo Mazo how Obito did due to his lack of Uchiha AND Senju's powers, which are the requirements as stated by Madara, but even if he can, a gate can take care of it. Hashirama has been shown to drop 10 at once. Kabuto can't get to all of them before he falls asleep.
I'm still not convinced that the gates are Shodai's best chance of gaining victory simply because they can readily be used against him.
If they were by themselves yes, but he has the flower world to take care of Kabuto.
We could have a discussion about whether or not they are entirely chakra based but I sense that's for another time. For the purpose of this particular scenario, however, I think the only major thing to worry about is whether or not they are actually being manipulated with chakra.
Alright then. My stance on that matter is pretty much the same as Strict's statements. Here are some DB entries that back up his claims.
Wood Release: Wood Locking Wall (木遁・木錠壁, Mokuton: Mokujouheki)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yamato
A solid barrier that closes up from left and right!!
This technique uses chakra to activate the roots in the ground and, using Yamato as a reference point, makes wooden pillars appear from left and right. The wooden pillars join together in a dome-shape with Yamato at the centre. This process can be used to catch the enemy in a pincer attack!! Also, in case one confronts the enemy at a short distance, the enemy can be locked up inside the dome, setting the situation for a one-on-one fight. Furthermore, it functions as a easy shelter against the enemy's long-distance attacks, like shuriken and kunai. It certainly is an all-purpose wall.
Wood Release: Four Pillar House Technique (木遁・四柱家の術, Mokuton: Shichuuka no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Yamato
In an instant a splendid Wood Release retreat is build from the ground up!!
By sending chakra into the ground, the roots of the plants are converted into raw materials. This technique allows for a building to be constructed, by forcing accelerated growth. Just like with the "Four Pillar Prison Technique," the size and shape of the building are taken from the user Yamato's imagination or memories. By placing fuda* around the "Four Pillar House," one creates a barrier, making it impossible for the enemy to detect it and allowing on to "camp" in peace!!
[picture of wooden beams growing from the ground]
[picture of Yamato doing a handseal]
↑→As soon as the handseal is made, trees break through the ground. In order to build the house immediately, they are already prepared to act like timber.
A two-story building adorned with the Konoha symbol!!
[picture of the house created with this technique]
[picture of team Kakashi inside the house]
↑→Straight out of Yamato's imagination, Konoha Hot Spring's high-class inn town: the "Fallen Leafs Retreat" (落葉庵, Rakuyouan). It's created out of consideration for his subordinates need to rest, but... one should really avoid overkill.
*A fuda, or o-fuda (御札) is a kind of talisman or charm, made of paper. It is placed on walls, pillars, doors , and windows as a guard against evil spirits and such. They are often seen in manga and anime as a kind of mystical weapon. The exploding tags in Naruto are fuda, for example.
[pictures of the wooden beams closing over Yamato]
↑While locking up the enemy, it also acts like a protective wall...!! Since its size can be adjusted at will, it has the ability to save a great number of people!!
His summoning was carrying him when he used Shinra tensie, but when he got behind Killer Bee that his speed. Second, the OP most likely made the match as healthy Nagato which means his speed equals to his pains.
The bold is baseless, there is no proof Healthy Nagato had speed equal to Tendo's, even if he did, it wouldn't matter as he isn't continuosuly evading Gates that range from bijuu sizes to Bijuu dwarfing sizes the whole match.
Do you know how genjutsu works? Hashirama chakra if flowing around his genjutsu to spread out. Rinnegan already has shown the ability to see chakra as seen in invasion of pain meaning it can see the genjutsu. Ahhh he doesn't need knowledge on the techniques when he knows where they are coming from. The pollen was visible and gokage could see it. Saying that Nagato wont see it when he has one of the greatest visions is BS. He will see the pollen and all of Hashi techniques thanks to his Rain jutsu that allows him to sense the environment so Mokuton techniques are sensed easily
.
Yeah, it'd only see Hashirama's chakra, but it wouldn't let him see right through the Genjutsu, in fact it seeing chakra makes it worse, just how Kakashi couldn't see through the mist due to it being infused with Zabuza's chakra.
The pollen would be visible, if he weren't' under Bringer of Darkness, the Rain jutsu isn't going to let him sense the pollen either.
how are they gonna restrain the dogs when they are basically keep splitting as shown when Bunta sat on them with his tremendous weight yet they divided again. We also have Nagato statement that dogs will just keep dividing no matter what. Hotei no jutsu and gates are not gonna stop them from dividing. Hashirama has to actually hit Nagato so his dogs can stop
The split from their heads, if there are Gates on their necks they have absolutely no way to split so they can't get free. Also if something far bigger than them crushes them (Hotei) even if they split, they'll still be in the hands grasp.
where is your evidence that they wont? The bird can carry Nagato up high allowing him to use CT. Hashirama hasn't shown anything to get him up high other than Shinsuusenju which is restricted in this match up. I would like to also note, that his Animal Rinnegan summoning are immortal as well meaning Nagato can summon them every time they disappear. Lol WTF? Nagato using Shadow Clonse Jutsu in his imagination is considered as feats so he is granted with it.
The bold makes no sense whatsoever, when you can show me Nagato using that outside of his imagination, then he can, until then, he doesn't have it. That's like saying since Naruto's imagination had him using Chidori against Sasuke using Rasengan, then he should get Chidori in his arsenal, lmao, hell no.
Summonings don't have the durability feats to tank
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head on. They get plowed through. Um, Nagato would have to summon the bird and it'd have to get far enough into the air for that to work, but of course, that isn't happening when Hashirama can sprout Mokuton
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, can sprout Hotei from his standing point, and has a Mokujin, which was half Perfect Susanoo's height, it could easily smack the bird back down before it gets too high, though its not necessary since Hashirama can stop the bird from ever taking flight.
Preta-Path is as effective against Mokuton as against others in Taijutsu combat. Hashirama converts his Chakra into source of life to create wood. Even if it comes to absorbing the Chakra of a single tendril, the source of the Chakra under the earth will remain active; Hashirama would still control the forest by stimulating the Chakra again. Preta-Path is useless against Mokuton. The masses would crush Nagato before he's able to successfully activate Gakido in the instant of getting in touch with them. And absorbing any Chakra out of it would be of no meaning as I said, Hashirama would just stimulate the growth again and send new Chakra into the tendrils.
As for scenario 1, any means of flying would be inverted by dropping the gates from above. The masses of wood Hashirama can create, would catch Nagato even if flying, at least when with the bird, if seeing how Hashirama can create a wood statue of titanic proportions like Shinsusenjuu.
Preta-Path is as effective against Mokuton as against others in Taijutsu combat. Hashirama converts his Chakra into source of life to create wood. Even if it comes to absorbing the Chakra of a single tendril, the source of the Chakra under the earth will remain active; Hashirama would still control the forest by stimulating the Chakra again. Preta-Path is useless against Mokuton. The masses would crush Nagato before he's able to successfully activate Gakido in the instant of getting in touch with them. And absorbing any Chakra out of it would be of no meaning as I said, Hashirama would just stimulate the growth again and send new Chakra into the tendrils.
As for scenario 1, any means of flying would be inverted by dropping the gates from above. The masses of wood Hashirama can create, would catch Nagato even if flying, at least when with the bird, if seeing how Hashirama can create a wood statue of titanic proportions like Shinsusenjuu.
I recall that iSpeak, Midday and myself (among others) already debunked this ages ago. It's not really a difficult concept to grasp. I don't see how you can misunderstand what they're saying when they reference 'source of life'. A tree is a source of life. Chakra is being converted into a source of life - a tree. Just as Suiton users convert Chakra into sources of water or as Katon users convert theirs into sources of heat. You're trying to separate Hashirama's Wood Style from other types of Ninjutsu simply because his chakra has been transformed or in some cases, pumped into organic substances (which to most people, seems unusual). What saw what happened when 'real' oil ran into Preta Path. There is no difference. People are just being thrown off because trees are 'alive', but we saw that this 'life' was nothing more than Yang Chakra being melded with Suiton and Doton. This is canon data fresh from the manga.
If Nagato absorbs Chakra at the same rate at which Hashirama provides it, then the trees, or the Jutsu, simply wouldn't grow. It'd just stop, because the net result would be 0. Essentially, it would be dying and growing at the same time.
Yeah, but you are forgetting Flower Tree World, which would be used as soon as Nagato is pinned. The Flower World would most definitely knock Kabuto out before he ever reached Hashirama's gates, as he needs to make contact with whatever he is aiming to infuse his life force with to control.
He can't make the seals for both techniques at the same time. If he were to use the gates first, then they won't immediately be put to sleep. If it's the flowers, then they'd have an opportunity to go airborne. We haven't seen the gates pin down moving targets, so any idea regarding their accuracy would only be an estimate.
Even if Nagato made this explosion, wouldn't he end up hurting himself?
Why, it'd just destroy the areas with a high concentration of pollen - the flowers. You yourself said that it 'just spreads out in a large area', so this approach would destroy the source only (which solves most of the problem).
Sure, it'll buy him 5 seconds, cause the pollen is being continuously produced, he'd end up getting knocked out during his 5 second interval.
Depends on where he is - depends on what's happened - Depends on who's done what. Can't really dictate how the fight would play out, only provide scenarios.
I've reason to believe Nagato can't utilize Gedo Mazo how Obito did due to his lack of Uchiha AND Senju's powers, which are the requirements as stated by Madara, but even if he can, a gate can take care of it. Hashirama has been shown to drop 10 at once. Kabuto can't get to all of them before he falls asleep.
I know, I made a thread about that. Regardless, I don't see why Gedō Mazō couldn't simply charge through Mokuton structures or blast them away with some large scale roar.
If they were by themselves yes, but he has the flower world to take care of Kabuto.
He can't make the seals for both techniques at the same time. If he were to use the gates first, then they won't immediately be put to sleep. If it's the flowers, then they'd have an opportunity to go airborne. We haven't seen the gates pin down moving targets, so any idea regarding their accuracy would only be an estimate.
If he uses the Gates then that stops them from getting airborne. If he follows up with the Flower World, that'd give time for the effects to kick in before Kabuto gets to the Gate pinning Nagato, frees him via Muki Tensei, and then Nagato summoning his bird so they can both get airborne.
There's also the option of utilizing a clone.
Why, it'd just destroy the areas with a high concentration of pollen - the flowers. You yourself said that it 'just spreads out in a large area', so this approach would destroy the source only (which solves most of the problem).
Ah, ok. I see. I was just confused on how big this explosion would be.
Depends on where he is - depends on what's happened - Depends on who's done what. Can't really dictate how the fight would play out, only provide scenarios.
I know, I made a thread about that. Regardless, I don't see why Gedō Mazō couldn't simply charge through Mokuton structures or blast them away with some large scale roar.
I reread the exact properties of the Mokuton and and conclude with both information and common sense, that not any type of Ninjutsu can be absorbed. That's also the reason why Madara is still facing Hashirama with his PS and gets stalemated instead of using Preta-Path like when he turned Jinton easily to nothing. The size of Mokujin shouldn't matter as Preta-Path is described as a bottomless container which swallows any amount of Chakra. But I see it isn't the case he is turning the wood human technique into dead wood with Preta-Path, when, by the logic of you, Midday and iSpeak (who sometime claimed Bijuus could be absorbed) this would be a good opportunity to get rid of it and further by your logic the most effective one. Prime Madara is inferior to Hashirama, so Preta-Path should have closed that gap with another technique which is effective against Mokuton.
