DSM Kabuto and Nagato vs. Hashirama

[Bronze]

lol? Even without Buddha he'd destroy Nagato.

and what jutsu does he have in his base that can beat Nagato besides his Buddah?

 

[KidGamer65]

and what jutsu does he have in his base that can beat Nagato besides his Buddah?

SM isn't restricted. He can just drop a gate on him and put him to sleep via Flower World or smash him via Jukai Kotan.

In Base a Bringer of Darkness + Flower World combo is dangerous as Nagato can't see through the Genjutsu automatically w/o Sharingan, cause Rinnegan doesn't have the ability to see right through Genjutsu, unless you believe Nagato can use Madara's Sharingan techniques. Since he can't see the Flower World coming, he won't know how to counter it, he'll only hear trees growing from the ground, his levitation isn't absolute and he will fall back down to the ground eventually.

All he needs to do is keep hitting him with large scale Mokuton techniques forcing him to use up Deva's abilities to save himself meaning CT never happens.

 

[OnPoint]

What if Nagato consumes the chakra in Hashirama's trees via Gakidō (rendering them lifeless) and has Kabuto use Muki Tensei on them? What if Muki Tensei is used on Hashirama's gates?

 

[KidGamer65]

What if Nagato consumes the chakra in Hashirama's trees via Gakidō (rendering them lifeless) and has Kabuto use Muki Tensei on them? What if Muki Tensei is used on Hashirama's gates?

Muki Tensei most likely only works on inorganic things hence the name "Inorganic Reincarnation". Since trees are still organic whether they have died or not, it wouldn't work. It'd also take a while to absorb the chakra fueling the whole Flower Tree World, and the pollen it produces has a

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Nagato would fall asleep if he tries this.

Kabuto would have to make contact with them first, but he'd have Flower Tree World and its pollen to worry about, and he can't take care of it, only Nagato can, and he's pinned by a gate. Even if he gets to the gate Hashirama dropped on Nagato, the former can just follow up with another one giving Flower Tree World more than enough time to put them to sleep.

There's also the

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to worry about. Nagato wouldn't be able to absorb the actual wood so he'd get crushed.

 

[KidGamer65]

Is it even chakra coursing through the trees that keeps the Mokuton alive? I could have sworn that Hashirama's chakra to Mokuton is like Water to trees. The chakra helps it grow but nothing else.

Databook states that it uses Hashirama's chakra as a source of life.

Databook 3 - Mokuton no Jutsu:
Wood Release Technique (木遁の術, Mokuton no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, Supplementary, All ranges
Users: Yamato, Shodai Hokage

A unique secret technique that creates life, tearing through the ground!!

A legendary technique that turns chakra into a source of life. Now, Yamato is the sole user of this "Secret Technique" (秘術, Hijutsu) . With the "Kekkei Genkai" allowing the simultaneous use of the basic chakra natures "Earth Release" and "Water Release," plants and trees are created. The transformation of these displays a tremendous power in both offence and defence.

[picture of Yamato doing a handseal]
[picture of trees growing from Yamato's Earth Style Rampart]
→↓When Yamato puts his hands together to form the Wood Release handseal, trees grow from the steep bedrock!! If he feels like it, he can even turn a desert into a forest!!

 

[pateuvasiliu]

5 votes for Nagato and Kabuto?

I don't want to post on this forum anymore.

 

[OnPoint]

IIRC, Muki Tensei was described as allowing the user to manipulate inanimate objects - something which merely implies all objects which are 'lifeless' or 'not alive'. So it wouldn't be absurd to claim that dead trees would also fall victim to such a technique, regardless of their origins.

Nagato wouldn't necessarily need to absorb all the chakra driving Shodai's technique. Merely targeting the most dangerous section of the Jutsu (namely, the parts of the tendrils in close proximity to either him or his teammate) would allow Nagato to limit its effectiveness, as only the most dangerous parts of the trees would become lifeless. The Gokage evaded both the pollen and the tendrils by taking to the skies; something which is within Nagato's power when the abilities of Tendō, Shuradō and his Giant Drill-Beaked Bird are considered. Also pollen clouds would be at risk of 'Dust explosions' - where high concentrations of dispersed combustible particles in atmosphere can lead to rapid explosions. Things such as grain, flour, sugar, powdered milk and pollen [

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]. Where Nagato to ignite a section with, say, a guided rocket, who knows what the outcome would be...

I don't see why Kabuto couldn't simply make use of Nagato's bird in an attempt to close the distance between the branches and himself.

I personally see Hashirama taking it via Mokujin or the like but that's just me.

 

[Bronze]

SM isn't restricted. He can just drop a gate on him and put him to sleep via Flower World or smash him via Jukai Kotan.

In Base a Bringer of Darkness + Flower World combo is dangerous as Nagato can't see through the Genjutsu automatically w/o Sharingan, cause Rinnegan doesn't have the ability to see right through Genjutsu, unless you believe Nagato can use Madara's Sharingan techniques. Since he can't see the Flower World coming, he won't know how to counter it, he'll only hear trees growing from the ground, his levitation isn't absolute and he will fall back down to the ground eventually.

All he needs to do is keep hitting him with large scale Mokuton techniques forcing him to use up Deva's abilities to save himself meaning CT never happens.

Nagato has the speed to avoid the gates [

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].

Nagato has already shown the ability to sense attacks before happening [

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] so the Bringer of darkness is fodder to his sensory powers not to mention rinnegan can see chakra and the next evolution of EMS. FTW is sensed by Nagato's sensory powers, lets not also forget, Nagato can make the sky rain and by that, he can sense and see absolutely everything which makes Hashirama techniques easy to avoid.

His techniques aren't gonna prevent Nagato from using CT, because he is gonna have to deal with the dogs who will contiounsly divide and gates aren't gonna stop them because they can split even when they are restrained as shown here [

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], Bunta sat on them to restrain them and they divided. So gates aren't doing anything.

Nagato can just create shadow clones along with his summonings, he can go for CT, which Hashirama has no counter for.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Nagato couldn't avoid Totsuka, and he's avoiding a giant gate? Yeah no.

 

[OnPoint]

Is it even chakra coursing through the trees tha.....

That is just a misinterpretation of what the Databook is actually saying. Chakra is turned into a source of life because it is being melded and transformed into a living thing - a tree. It is no different from chakra being transformed into a source of Hydrogen and Oxygen (Suiton). It's just about the language which is being used. Of course there's chakra flowing through the trees, because this is the only way Shodai would be able to manipulate them. Yamato's explanation in the manga makes it clear that Wood Release is only an extension of your basic Ninjutsu principles, which are all based around chakra [

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][

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][

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].

 

[KidGamer65]

IIRC, Muki Tensei was described as allowing the user to manipulate inanimate objects - something which merely implies all objects which are 'lifeless' or 'not alive'. So it wouldn't be absurd to claim that dead trees would also fall victim to such a technique, regardless of their origins.

Yeah,

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Though I can't help but feel that it has that name "Inorganic Reincarnation" for a reason related to the use of the technique, but I guess it'll work based on the description.

Nagato wouldn't necessarily need to absorb all the chakra driving Shodai's technique. Merely targeting the most dangerous section of the Jutsu (namely, the parts of the tendrils in close proximity to either him or his teammate) would allow Nagato to limit its effectiveness, as only the most dangerous parts of the trees would become lifeless. The Gokage evaded both the pollen and the tendrils by taking to the skies; something which is within Nagato's power when the abilities of Tendō, Shuradō and his Giant Drill-Beaked Bird are considered. Also pollen clouds would be at risk of 'Dust explosions' - where high concentrations of dispersed combustible particles in atmosphere can lead to rapid explosions. Things such as grain, flour, sugar, powdered milk and pollen [

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]. Where Nagato to ignite a section with, say, a guided rocket, who knows what the outcome would be...

That's the thing. Nagato can't get in the air when Hashirama's Gate is on top of him, and he has been shown to drop as many as 10 at a time, so he'll be able to get any and all of Nagato's summons along with the summoner, pinned to the ground. So Nagato isn't using the bird to take to the skies and he isn't using Deva or Asura to fly either.

That would all depend on if the pollen is concentrated enough, to me it seems it just spreads out in a large enough area, also, nothing happened when Madara used Katon besides the branches catching on fire, which classifies as an ignition source, so I don't see this happening.

I don't see why Kabuto couldn't simply make use of Nagato's bird in an attempt to close the distance between the branches and himself.

Because of the Gates, he can drop one on any summoned animal Nagato calls out or has out when he gets attacked by the gate, cause he isn't summoning while he's pinned.

I personally see Hashirama taking it via Mokujin or the like but that's just me.

Really? I see him being able to deal with Nagato via Mokujin, but Kabuto has that liquefying ability.

Is it even chakra coursing through the trees tha.....

That is just a misinterpretation of what the Databook is actually saying. Chakra is turned into a source of life because it is being melded and transformed into a living thing - a tree. It is no different from chakra being transformed into a source of Hydrogen and Oxygen (Suiton). It's just about the language which is being used. Of course there's chakra flowing through the trees, because this is the only way Shodai would be able to manipulate them. Yamato's explanation in the manga makes it clear that Wood Release is only an extension of your basic Ninjutsu principles, which are all based around chakra [

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

][

You must be registered for see links

].

So there is chakra flowing through the trees, but I'm pretty sure the trees themselves aren't made out of chakra like Suiton is made from the user's chakra.

 

[Bronze]

Looks like OnPoint has cleared it up. Preta path can absorb the chakra inside Mokuton.

 

[Touken]

Looks like OnPoint has cleared it up. Preta path can absorb the chakra inside Mokuton.

It's different with Mokuton because Mokuton is indeed different.

Mokuton has techs which aren't exactly damaging and instead has special properties, for example, Flower Tree World.

Preta Path is only effective against techs that are pure chakra such as elemental ninjutsu etc. Because Mokuton requires Hashirama's life force, it gives it special properties.

Btw, life force is required for Mokuton since not everyone who has mastered Doton and Suiton can merge it together to create Mokuton.

 

[Bronze]

It's different with Mokuton because Mokuton is indeed different.

Mokuton has techs which aren't exactly damaging and instead has special properties, for example, Flower Tree World.

Mokuton itself is life but it has chakra flowing through them allowing the user to manipulate them otherwise how is Hashirama or anyone else is manipulating them? they don't use their life force. Their chakra turns Mokuton into life but chakra is flowing through them.

the Pollen however isn't made from chakra.

 

[KidGamer65]

Nagato has the speed to avoid the gates [

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].

His Chameleon was carrying him around, Nagato on his own has zero speed feats.

Nagato has already shown the ability to sense attacks before happening [

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] so the Bringer of darkness is fodder to his sensory powers not to mention rinnegan can see chakra and the next evolution of EMS. FTW is sensed by Nagato's sensory powers, lets not also forget, Nagato can make the sky rain and by that, he can sense and see absolutely everything which makes Hashirama techniques easy to avoid.

Bringer of Darkness is Genjutsu, so Rinnegan seeing chakra won't help here. It being the next evolution of EMS (Which is false btw) isn't helping here as Rinnegan doesn't have the feat of seeing through Genjutsu like Sharingan does.

He'll know its coming, but with no sight and zero knowledge on the technique, he's not going to know that it constantly expels sleep pollen, so he won't know how to counter at all.

His techniques aren't gonna prevent Nagato from using CT, because he is gonna have to deal with the dogs who will contiounsly divide and gates aren't gonna stop them because they can split even when they are restrained as shown here [

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], Bunta sat on them to restrain them and they divided. So gates aren't doing anything.

If a gate is dropped on each of their heads, then they won't be able to split apart thus they can't escape the gates. Not to mention Hotei no Jutsu created

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, they'd effortlessly dwarf and restrain the dog.

Nagato can just create shadow clones along with his summonings, he can go for CT, which Hashirama has no counter for.

Summonings aren't protecting him from things like Jukai Kotan and Flower Tree World, and Nagato can't even use Shadow Clones. Don't bring that scan here cause that was him imagining himself as the main character of Jiraiya's book.

 

[KingHashirama]

Hashirama Senju...

 

[OnPoint]

Yeah,

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Though I can't help but feel that it has that name "Inorganic Reincarnation" for a reason related to the use of the technique, but I guess it'll work based on the description.

I mean, i'm not saying you're wrong in assuming that - i've just gone with the actual Jutsu description as opposed to the English translation of its name.

That's the thing. Nagato can't get in the air when Hashirama's Gate is on top of him, and he has been shown to drop as many as 10 at a time, so he'll be able to get any and all of Nagato's summons along with the summoner, pinned to the ground. So Nagato isn't using the bird to take to the skies and he isn't using Deva or Asura to fly either.

And that's where Muki Tensei would be most effective, surely. Kabuto could then manipulate the gates to suit both of their needs; namely, making them 'grow' off on Nagato or having them turn against Hashirama. They'd certainly be troublesome, yes. But they wouldn't be the potential game breakers for me.

That would all depend on if the pollen is concentrated enough, to me it seems it just spreads out in a large enough area, also, nothing happened when Madara used Katon besides the branches catching on fire, which classifies as an ignition source, so I don't see this happening.

But Madara didn't aim for the source of the pollen, which would undoubtedly house the most concentrated areas. Causal uses of Shinra Tensei would be able to buy Nagato some time. That, or Gedō Mazō's shockwaves.

Because of the Gates, he can drop one on any summoned animal Nagato calls out or has out when he gets attacked by the gate, cause he isn't summoning while he's pinned.

I'm still not convinced that the gates are Shodai's best chance of gaining victory simply because they can readily be used against him.

So there is chakra flowing through the trees, but I'm pretty sure the trees themselves aren't made out of chakra like Suiton is made from the user's chakra.

We could have a discussion about whether or not they are entirely chakra based but I sense that's for another time. For the purpose of this particular scenario, however, I think the only major thing to worry about is whether or not they are actually being manipulated with chakra.

 

[Byakusharinnegan]

For battle's sake, let's restrict the gates. And as a matter of fact...make it Hanzo, Nagato and DSM Kabuto vs Hashirama in scenario 2.

 

[OnPoint]

It's different with Mokuton because Mokuton is indeed different.

Mokuton has techs which aren't exactly damaging and instead has special properties, for example, Flower Tree World.

Preta Path is only effective against techs that are pure chakra such as elemental ninjutsu etc. Because Mokuton requires Hashirama's life force, it gives it special properties.

Btw, life force is required for Mokuton since not everyone who has mastered Doton and Suiton can merge it together to create Mokuton.

All that 'life force' is is Yang chakra/energy, it couldn't have been made clearer than when Naruto used KM for the first time.

 

[Touken]

For battle's sake, let's restrict the gates. And as a matter of fact...make it Hanzo, Nagato and DSM Kabuto vs Hashirama in scenario 2.

That's a better battle scenario.