[Theory] Awakening The "True" Susano'o

[The Robot With Human Hair]

*EDIT- If anyone has misinterpreted what my theory exactly supposes, I will simplify what I conclude, as I feel I've been pretty vague on that. To be honest, I somewhat rushed this theory and left out some evidence(s) that I planned on including as well I feel as though some of my points aren't eloquent to the level I wanted. I may revisit this later, though I likely won't. Basically, the conclusion that should be supposed is that attaining the pinnacle of Susano'o requires attaining the pinnacle of the Mangekyou Sharingan and it's techniques. As the Databooks imply the two techniques needed to be Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, I am supposing that each of these techniques have a pinnacle, Itachi's Tsukuyomi, Sasuke's Enton: Kagu-Tscuchi, in order to stabilize the chakra of the Susano'o, it stands to reason that through developing each Mangekyou to the pinnacle in power and manipulation, the technique derived through use of each will benefit. I don't feel as though anyone quite understood this, so I apologize for my vagueness.

Alright, this theory will use the databook statement regarding the awakening of Susano'o and what exactly I believe this means. The connection between the techniques Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi and Tsukuyomi, and what exactly the requirements for a Perfect Susano'o user is. The Databook statement:

Two jutsu allowed to be used only by those whose eyes have opened to Mangekyo Sharingan, the heavenly eyes that see all things in the universe: Amaterasu, representing the light of the material world; and Tsukuyomi, the nightmare realm, representing the world of the mind and darkness. Susano'o is the strength of the tempestuous force that only resides within those who have mastered both of these techniques.

The first thing that struck me here is the bold. "The nightmare realm" is used as a description for Tsukuyomi, and this realm has been utilized by Sasuke in his fights with Bee and Danzo, but I feel that something is missing. Tsukuyomi has been tied to the ability to manipulate time, space and substance within the dreamscape, yet Sasuke simply used it to fool Danzo into thinking his last Sharingan was active and to restrain Bee.

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*Note - the inverted color scheme denotes the nightmare realm.*

However, there is no evidence of him holding the ability to manipulate the dreamscape to such a high degree as Itachi does with his Tsukuyomi. Basically I'm going to suggest that Tsukuyomi is to the dreamscape, what Enton is to the black flames. Tsukuyomi is derived though mastery of the dreamscape to the highest degree, unlike Amaterasu which the black flames are actually derived from and mastery to the highest degree requires Enton which allows control over the flames and the sister technique, Kagu-Tsuchi, which allows manipulation over the substance of the flames, allowing the flames to hold physical shape.

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You might see where I'm going with this. The "Perfect", "True", or "Real" Susano'o of Madara's requires perfection of both Amaterasu and the Nightmare Realm, which both Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi and Tsukuyomi are requirements for. Basically, Kishimoto has slightly retconned the databook entry. Instead, now I believe it refers to the "Real" Susano'o in Madara's possession, which it becomes once it's chakra stabilizes as seen in

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. Itachi has not technically "mastered" Amaterasu as he is without Enton, therefore, I don't believe that he quite meets the stipulations after Kishimoto retconned this idea when he conceptualized the Perfect Susano'o and Enton.

*I should note that EMS would be a requirement, as one brother will supply what the other lacks, Itachi supplying Sasuke Tsukuyomi, giving him the potential to use Perfect Susano'o, and Izuna supplying Madara either Tsukuyomi or Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi which allowed him to unlock Perfect Susano'o. Which makes sense as to why Tobirama suggested that Sasuke holds the same potential as Madara.*

Awakening Susano'o initially requires use of Amaterasu and the Dreamscape. As Sasuke awakened Susano'o's ribcage before showing the ability to use Enton and it's sister technique Kagu-Tsuchi, he awakened Susano'o through utilization of Amaterasu and the Nightmare Realm, both of which were shown in Sasuke's fight with Bee. It is even suggested that his Susano'o had been awakened before he arrived at the Kage Summit, where he initially began using Enton and it's variants. His first use of Enton was with Susano'o activated.

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And Sasuke's assertion that Susano'o requires a double Mangekyou is still true, but it is still a very rare accomplishment as Obito professed. Simply awakening any two Mangekyou Sharingan techniques should not apply as it's rarity has been stressed by Obito, and this would mean every Mangekyou Sharingan holds the potential to use the technique, including Obito's, which contradicts his own statement.

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Conclusion; Perfect Susano'o requires perfect mastery of the doujutsu, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi. Susano'o itself requires utilization of Amaterasu and the Nightmare Realm, in order to perfect these techniques, and thus perfect Susano'o, the doujutsu Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi, and Tsukuyomi are requirements. Once requirements are filled with the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, the Perfect Susano'o can be used.

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BTW, if you have the time, please read

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of mine. It basically explains how mastery of the double Mangekyou of the donors eyes affects Susano'o with the EMS. And

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as well that delves into how the donor's doujutsu's are utilized with the Eternal Mangekyou. If you're questioning the ability of the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan to transfer doujutsu, I suggest giving these a read.

 

[blackstar9]

Tobirama said he has not seen a kagasutchi like sasuke before. If izuna or madara had it tobirama should know

 

[D R E X]

Since when did Bee fight Danzo

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Since when did Bee fight Danzo

What? Where did you get that from anything that I stated?

 

[Opiuchus05]

perfect susano'o is when sasuke stops using the ms version susano'o that he fought danzo with

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and uses the one he used against the zetsus;it even has a diamond on it's head like madara's

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i dont know why he hasn't even used it yet

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

perfect susano'o is when sasuke stops using the ms version susano'o that he fought danzo with

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and uses the one he used against the zetsus;it even has a diamond on it's head like madara's

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i dont know why he hasn't even used it yet

That's Sasuke's Final Susano'o. If you're labeling it under the same category as

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, as it is technically Perfect Susano'o, I used the terminology as what's typically accepted is Madara's True Susano'o (stabilized) as Perfect Susano'o. Anyways, I still consider it a higher level than Sasuke's Susano'o, regardless of size, there are two cloaks, one wrapping around Madara's Susano'o, as with Sasuke's, and the other falling over it's head, which Sasuke hasn't accessed. I consider it a development that Sasuke will access once he grows fully accustomed to Itachi's Mangekyou.

 

[Frikid]

I dont think Perfect susano needs mastery over amaterasu as madara never ever used amaterasu. If you are master at somethin, you will at least use it once in a war , don't you think?

 

[xcoyote]

I dont think Perfect susano needs mastery over amaterasu as madara never ever used amaterasu. If you are master at somethin, you will at least use it once in a war , don't you think?

This!
Tbh i dont think Madara has Amatarasu at all,i mean he was Hashirama's rival and he was always losing Lol,if he had sth like amaterasu to gain the elemental advantage over Hashi,i bet he would have mastered it.

 

[Mitarashi]

I dont think Perfect susano needs mastery over amaterasu as madara never ever used amaterasu. If you are master at somethin, you will at least use it once in a war , don't you think?

Naruto is the master of Sexy jutsu. He hasn't used that all war.
/Lol

 

[KCMNaruto]

Very well elaborated theory with evidences from the manga backing up your theory

Nice and simple to understand points which you tried to tell to us(readers)

Well done

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

I dont think Perfect susano needs mastery over amaterasu as madara never ever used amaterasu. If you are master at somethin, you will at least use it once in a war , don't you think?

We have no grounds to assume what either of Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan abilities are in that case, as every single one of them have been quite over powered, the same can be said of whatever technique one would assume his MS allows him access to. Amaterasu, as stated in the databooks, is required for use of Susano'o, I have kept in line with that assuming Madara can utilize this technique. As Tobirama has seen Kagu-Tsuchi, a technique derived from Enton, and fought in wars opposing Izuna and Madara with the Mangekyou, this is quite a possibility.

Not only that, but these techniques forming a pair makes sense given the mythology they are based on. Amaterasu's retreat into the cave on mt. Kagu after her brother Susano'o's rampage, would be the techniques reference to Amaterasu and Kagu-Tsuchi, who is also the fire god in Shinto mythology, that burned his mother, Izanami, to death at birth prompting his father, Izanagi, to slay him with the Totsuka no Tsurugi which would later be passed on to his son, Susano'o. Tsukuyomi is one of the three noble children born of Izanagi cleansing himself of his sins, these three in order of birth are, Amaterasu, The Sun Goddess, Tsukuyomi, The Moon God, and Susano'o, The God of Storms & The Sea. These three forming a pair in the manga would be quite a probable intention of Kishimoto. Especially when taking the Databooks into consideration.

 

[Child Of The Great Empire]

Good theory. c:

 

[KisuneUchiha]

This!
Tbh i dont think Madara has Amatarasu at all,i mean he was Hashirama's rival and he was always losing Lol,if he had sth like amaterasu to gain the elemental advantage over Hashi,i bet he would have mastered it.

Actually if you search up Amaterasu on Narutopedia you will see that Madara can in fact use Amaterasu

 

[thunderthehybrid]

i think only madara can have Stabilized susanoo. sasuke has curse seal susanoo

 

[Tera Path]

I dont think Perfect susano needs mastery over amaterasu as madara never ever used amaterasu. If you are master at somethin, you will at least use it once in a war , don't you think?

Sasuke has mastery over Chidori, he hasn't used that.....
Last time he did was when he fought Kabuto.


Tbh, this is a pretty good theory.
But space and time manipulation was only itachi's thing.........
Sasukes tsukyomi is/was mediocre if you ask me.......
Just on the same scale as any other genjutsu but in a black world.

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Sasuke has mastery over Chidori, he hasn't used that.....
Last time he did was when he fought Kabuto.


Tbh, this is a pretty good theory.
But space and time manipulation was only itachi's thing.........
Sasukes tsukyomi is/was mediocre if you ask me.......
Just on the same scale as any other genjutsu but in a black world.

I have other theories on that. I believe that Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan techniques will become available to Sasuke once he is able to adjust to his Mangekyou fully, as Obito already informed him that it would take some time until he has fully adjusted. I already believe he has access to Itachi's Amaterasu in his right eye which is what has allowed him to use the flames with Enton: Kagu-Tsuchi, without needing the left. Also, perhaps the reason so much focus was placed on Sasuke's right Mangekyou when he took out the Zetsu's. We also saw Sasuke use his left Mangekyou for the very first time for genjutsu on one of the Zetsu's.

 

[Draxus]

Actually if you search up Amaterasu on Narutopedia you will see that Madara can in fact use Amaterasu

oh... so if some dude on the internet wrote it, it MUST be true xd

This has been gone over a million times but here are the facts... Sasuke didn't use tsukyomi on Danzo (he didn't put him a nightmare realm he just made him see an illusion). Madara has never used either amaretsu or tsukiyomi even though he had a perfect chance to use it on A, but chose to use a normal sharingan genjutsu instead. Sasuke did the same thing when he and Itachi genjutsu'd each other.

As far as perfect susano'o goes, the only difference between that and regular susano'o, is the ability to stabilize the chakra. Ama and Tsuki have nothing to do with this.

 

[adeshina365]

Amazing thread.

Though I'm still unsure if Madara has Amaterasu or not. Why hasn't he used it?

According to your theory Madara should also have Enton, but he's never used it with his Susanoo...

 

[The Robot With Human Hair]

Amazing thread.

Though I'm still unsure if Madara has Amaterasu or not. Why hasn't he used it?

According to your theory Madara should also have Enton, but he's never used it with his Susanoo...

Thanks and Madara holding Amaterasu, even if he couldn't use it in tandem with Susano'o as Sasuke does, would still make sense. Tobirama has seen Kagu-Tsuchi which must mean that he has seen Enton, while he noted it's strength in comparison to whomever's Kagu-Tsuchi he may have seen, perhaps speaking to it's use in tandem with Susano'o. Personally I find it odd that we haven't seen either of Madara's MS techniques, perhaps he considers them unnecessary as he has been testing out his new capabilities after being resurrected, while Hashirama had a good counter to them.

oh... so if some dude on the internet wrote it, it MUST be true xd

This has been gone over a million times but here are the facts... Sasuke didn't use tsukyomi on Danzo (he didn't put him a nightmare realm he just made him see an illusion). Madara has never used either amaretsu or tsukiyomi even though he had a perfect chance to use it on A, but chose to use a normal sharingan genjutsu instead. Sasuke did the same thing when he and Itachi genjutsu'd each other.

As far as perfect susano'o goes, the only difference between that and regular susano'o, is the ability to stabilize the chakra. Ama and Tsuki have nothing to do with this.

The color scheme has never once been used for a genjutsu that isn't either Itachi's Tsukuyomi, or Sasuke's Dreamscape. This isn't even debatable. He brought out the realm in which Tsukuyomi has ALWAYS been used. This realm has been tied directly to the technique, therefore there is correlation whether or not you want to admit it. Sasuke used his right eye for that genjutsu on Itachi, his left will be where Tsukuyomi is rooted in, just as Itachi's is. As his first ever use of genjutsu with his left Mangekyou took place after Itachi's eyes were transferred, he will eventually work it up to the level of Tsukuyomi that is Itachi's. Same applies to Madara. He didn't need Tsukuyomi as he was simply toying with the Gokage.

Wrong.

 

[adeshina365]

Thanks and Madara holding Amaterasu, even if he couldn't use it in tandem with Susano'o as Sasuke does, would still make sense. Tobirama has seen Kagu-Tsuchi which must mean that he has seen Enton, while he noted it's strength in comparison to whomever's Kagu-Tsuchi he may have seen, perhaps speaking to it's use in tandem with Susano'o. Personally I find it odd that we haven't seen either of Madara's MS techniques, perhaps he considers them unnecessary as he has been testing out his new capabilities after being resurrected, while Hashirama had a good counter to them.

True, its definitely possible that Madara doesn't consider his techniques outside of Susanoo necessary considering the strength and flexibility his Susanoo provides.

People speak about the CS and how it could allow Sasuke to surpass Madara, but Sasuke having the Perfect Susanoo in combination with his high level Enton would be enough to put him above Madara's (EMS) level.