What's with the hype on the 2nd and 3rd Hokage?

Armathyx

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I don't understand why everyone in this community believes Hiruzen is a "God of Shinobi" or why "Tobirama = Hashirama"

When was any of this stated in the manga? Heck, when was any of this proven in the manga? 3rd lost to Orochimaru mid-diff, Tobirama lost to Ginkaku/Kinkaku. That's what we know... not very promissing, is it?

So what's the source of all this hype?

Tobirama is clearly not on Hashirama's level if anything he's a watered-down Minato, and Hiruzen got surpassed by his students, the three Sannin, just like every master in this series gets surpassed by his apprentice (yes, Tsunade > Hiruzen, making him actually the weakest Hokage).

They're just not a big deal, deal with it. Remember the 5 Kage VS Madara? Replace any of the Kage with Hiruzen or Tobirama, the end result would be the same.
 

Blunt

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I've been saying this for a long, long time and i'm glad you made this thread.

Edit: I am talking about their strength/power, just incase somebody doesn't know, not their personalities. I like their personalities.
 
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LORD TAPATIO

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but tobirama is showing impressive feats. Tobirama is taking the fight to obito
 

griems

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Manga part1 + databooks and there you go.

Hiruzen > Tsunade. :bouncy:
 

-immortal-

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they Hype them like there is Money on the Ground..they are Putting so much Hype out of there ass...Manga Tobirama..doesn't need this
 

KGB Kakuzu

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.
 

sage22

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xcoyote

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Tobirama may not be on the lvl of Hashirama in terms of power.But Hokage isnt all about power,lets not forget that this guy was the one who established Konoha's organisational system,Anbu,Chunnin exams and Konoha's military police force(even though that kinda backfired Lol).Those are decent,or should i say amazing hokage/leader feats.
Now Hiruzen's hype has been retconned and yeah i can kinda agree with this,Hiruzen for me was one of the biggest Hokage failures,Danzo and the rest of the elders literally stepped on this guy.
 

mr opportunist

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yeah i don't see what ppl see in hiruzen, he seems so weak that even in his prime theres no way he could be as powerful as his hype
 

Vandenreich

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.

This ^^^ thank you.
OP lost.
 

Armathyx

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.
Hashirama and Tobirama weren't a big deal in Part 1, they were presented as "fodder Kage" of their time. Anyone who's been following this series since the start knows it. Orochimaru summoned them just to lower Hiruzen's morale, if you remember the fight, he was easily holding his ground 1v1 against Hiruzen before Edo Tensei.

Ginkaku Kinkaku are indeed strong but they did lose to Darui and Shikamaru's team. In comparison, Hashirama would've completely raped them.

You say that because he invented all those techniques, he is the strongest. But you completely ignore the fact, which was stated in the manga, that those jutsu were imperfect. Orochimaru and Minato improved his techniques, it's stated in the manga. Tobirama can't use FTG as good as Minato (he doesn't use Kunai) and he can't summon full power Edo Tensei like Orochimaru or Kabuto.

It's just like comparing Minato's Rasengan to Naruto's Rasengan Barrage / Rasen-Shuriken.

What I'm saying is Tobirama may know a lot of techniques but he sucks at all of them.


So I rest my case... they're not among the strongest Kage or strongest shinobi, it's just sensless hype.
 

Vandenreich

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Hashirama and Tobirama weren't a big deal in Part 1, they were presented as "fodder Kage" of their time. Anyone who's been following this series since the start knows it. Orochimaru summoned them just to lower Hiruzen's morale, if you remember the fight, he was easily holding his ground 1v1 against Hiruzen before Edo Tensei.

Ginkaku Kinkaku are indeed strong but they did lose to Darui and Shikamaru's team. In comparison, Hashirama would've completely raped them.

You say that because he invented all those techniques, he is the strongest. But you completely ignore the fact, which was stated in the manga, that those jutsu were imperfect. Orochimaru and Minato improved his techniques, it's stated in the manga. Tobirama can't use FTG as good as Minato (he doesn't use Kunai) and he can't summon full power Edo Tensei like Orochimaru or Kabuto.

It's just like comparing Minato's Rasengan to Naruto's Rasengan Barrage / Rasen-Shuriken.

What I'm saying is Tobirama may know a lot of techniques but he sucks at all of them.


So I rest my case... they're not among the strongest Kage or strongest shinobi, it's just sensless hype.

I don't even know what to say to you........
 
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I don't understand why everyone in this community believes Hiruzen is a "God of Shinobi" or why "Tobirama = Hashirama"

When was any of this stated in the manga? Heck, when was any of this proven in the manga? 3rd lost to Orochimaru mid-diff, Tobirama lost to Ginkaku/Kinkaku. That's what we know... not very promissing, is it?

So what's the source of all this hype?

Tobirama is clearly not on Hashirama's level if anything he's a watered-down Minato, and Hiruzen got surpassed by his students, the three Sannin, just like every master in this series gets surpassed by his apprentice (yes, Tsunade > Hiruzen, making him actually the weakest Hokage).

They're just not a big deal, deal with it. Remember the 5 Kage VS Madara? Replace any of the Kage with Hiruzen or Tobirama, the end result would be the same.

Bold: that is just stupid logic. While it may be true for a few, it is not the basic rule. If it was then this would be true

Anko> Orchimaru
Kakashi>Minato
Sakura>Kakashi
Ino> Asuma
Tenten > Guy

Also EVEN if its true, wouldnt that mean that Hiruzen> Tobirama and Hashirama since they taught him. You kinda contradicting urself there

Also the on the first sentence/para. It has been stated Hiruzen was called the God of Shinobi in his prime by Oro and databook 1+2, strongest of the hokage by Iruka, and strongest kage at his death by kabuto

I dont know where u got people saying Tobirama= Hashirama since it has been statd many times he was the strongest shinobi of his time which included tobirama. otherwise he is pretty badass, created EDo and FTG, and the coolest looking hokage IMO.
 

Madarauchiwa

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Hashirama and Tobirama weren't a big deal in Part 1, they were presented as "fodder Kage" of their time. Anyone who's been following this series since the start knows it. Orochimaru summoned them just to lower Hiruzen's morale, if you remember the fight, he was easily holding his ground 1v1 against Hiruzen before Edo Tensei.

Ginkaku Kinkaku are indeed strong but they did lose to Darui and Shikamaru's team. In comparison, Hashirama would've completely raped them.

You say that because he invented all those techniques, he is the strongest. But you completely ignore the fact, which was stated in the manga, that those jutsu were imperfect. Orochimaru and Minato improved his techniques, it's stated in the manga. Tobirama can't use FTG as good as Minato (he doesn't use Kunai) and he can't summon full power Edo Tensei like Orochimaru or Kabuto.

It's just like comparing Minato's Rasengan to Naruto's Rasengan Barrage / Rasen-Shuriken.

What I'm saying is Tobirama may know a lot of techniques but he sucks at all of them.


So I rest my case... they're not among the strongest Kage or strongest shinobi, it's just sensless hype.

his edo tensei is weaker then oros and kabuto because he stopped improving it because it was immoral and he labeled it a forbidden jutsu and as for the ftg hes been seen using it alot more effectively then minato who so far has been competely useless against juubito, doing nothing but losing his arm and getting frozen by a few mean words. tobirama has shown nothing but top quality combat abilities and is even able to sense narutos plan (something minato who is his father should be doing) and teleport behind juubito and letting naruto finally land a hit.

i get that your just trying to be one of those guys that berates characters who suddenly get alot of attention because theyre finally being shown in battle but at least stop talking out of your ass
 

Zantos

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.

THAT !!
/thread
 

MantraAsura

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.

Good points don't understand why people cant remember that Hiruzen was an old man.
 

hunk143

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Hiruzen: because when a 60 year old msn fights the watered down 1st and 2nd Hokage (who were still OP) and basically prime Orochimaru and manages to literally **** over Orochimaru by taking his ninjutsu (rendering him nearly useless)...that's no big deal. And more so Hiruzen was said to be the strongest of his time

Hiruzen: 3rd Raikage, 3rd Mizuksge, Oonoiki (younger so stronger), and the 3rd Kazekage.

Those guys are freaking haaxed as shit.



Kinkaku and Ginkaku


You HORRIBLY underrated them. On the first division battlefield....not a single individual or two msn team held a candle to them. They literally shit on Darui, Atsui, and Samui. It took plot changing his favorite spirit word for Darui to win.



As such...Tobirama

1. Minato and Kabuto/Orochimaru do not have their greatest abilities without him

After that, Edo, FTG, Suiton, Kenjutsu, Taijutsu: Tobirams was notably skilled in ALL of these by the way he uses them. He's easily one of if not the most omnipotent characters in Naruto....possibly only losing to Kabuto.

His death was against 20 elite shinobi. Basically you had Ginkaku and Kinkaku who were Haax as shit...and 18 people probably on Kakashi's level if not higher.

To make it worse...he wasn't fighting them, bit distracting and CONTAINING them. Ever try to fight with your hands tied behind your back because that's basically what he was doing.



So no, Hiruzen and Tobirams are monsters. Tobirama cannot be a watered down Minato because he INVENTED THE MOVE. He also uses other things than FTG which is more to say than Minato who revolves around it.



That's what the big desl is about them. They are badass, and you aren't giving them credit.

Thanks a lot! You nailed it. =D
 

KGB Kakuzu

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Hashirama and Tobirama weren't a big deal in Part 1, they were presented as "fodder Kage" of their time. Anyone who's been following this series since the start knows it. Orochimaru summoned them just to lower Hiruzen's morale, if you remember the fight, he was easily holding his ground 1v1 against Hiruzen before Edo Tensei.

Ginkaku Kinkaku are indeed strong but they did lose to Darui and Shikamaru's team. In comparison, Hashirama would've completely raped them.

You say that because he invented all those techniques, he is the strongest. But you completely ignore the fact, which was stated in the manga, that those jutsu were imperfect. Orochimaru and Minato improved his techniques, it's stated in the manga. Tobirama can't use FTG as good as Minato (he doesn't use Kunai) and he can't summon full power Edo Tensei like Orochimaru or Kabuto.

It's just like comparing Minato's Rasengan to Naruto's Rasengan Barrage / Rasen-Shuriken.

What I'm saying is Tobirama may know a lot of techniques but he sucks at all of them.


So I rest my case... they're not among the strongest Kage or strongest shinobi, it's just sensless hype.

They were not presented as "fodder kage"

1. Hiruzen KNOWS their full power so if anything st first he's thinking...SHIT.

2. During the fight, they note Tobirams using Suiton from nothing

3. Hashirama creates a Damn forest
They may not have been at full power... And was confirmed to be a FRACTION...but they still were keeping him going at a mere 10% strength. Also, didn't you just help my case. Orochimaru was MATCHING Hiruzen one on one....pretty good for an old man...once again...old man not young prime youth.


Once again....Darui only won because of PLOT...Darui was being pulled into the gourd GAME OVER. Then the plot says even though a sealing process is already occurring, he can change his word and get a get out of raped free card, and proceeds to surprise the brothers...who at the time had never encountered this.

Additionally, Kinkaku was in a blind rage sonaturally he was being careless. Even then it took a unique sage weapon to stop him....also, don't underestimate the Mind Transfer jutsu.

As for his jutsu...the fact they differ from those who mastered them doesn't make INVENTING them any less of a notable fest. Furthermore, he implemented them differently.

1. Because his Edos were not complete, he formed a infinite exploding talisman jutsu to make them usefull...with a titanic explosion.

2. He mainly used FTG with Kenjutsu for the Hiraishingiri.

3. He died young so theoretically he may have mastered these had he spent more time on them...and not...I don't know....sacrificing himself against the Kinkaku force.

Also, the only difference in FTG is that Minato has made the time barrier and the tagged Kunai, BUT, considering Hiraishingiri..plausible weapon attachments. And considering Tobirams mentions he can teleport a TBB...an equivalent of S/T Barrier.

But remember Tobirams is actually a Suiton user which means that everything he's shown us so far isn't even his forteit.

Lastly, Tobirams and Hashirama fight differently. Tobirams approaches with more notable one on one techniques where Hashirama produces massive scale techniques.

Despite this, Kakuzu, who was young and had no Earth Grudge Fear, Survived his fight with Hashirama, and so Ginkaku and Kinkaku probably wouldn't get raped...but still defeated due to the additional powers of Mokuton on tailed beasts and chakra absorption in general.


So once again you discredit the Hokage: Tobirama and Hiruzen
 

Zealotic

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Hashirama and Tobirama were probably seemed a lot weaker because one I think it was stated they were not resurrected at full power during the original naruto series and two Kishi probably didn't know at the time how strong he would eventually make them be later on in the series at the time.
With Hiruzen he old so his fight with the hokages was more evened out. But he would have been more stronger if he was resurrected in his young age which is why hes considerably weaker then the other hokages
With Tobirama since he died a while ago its understandable that he's not as good at using the reanimation and the flying raijin as Orochimaru and Minato since they perfected it using what he already established.
 

Currahee

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enma said hiruzen when he was old was pathetic compared to his prime and he still was spanking orochimaru over his knee. he was called god of shinobi because he mastered all konoha techniques and was to be the strongest kage when he died your arguement is invalid.
 
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