[VS] Minato VS Tobirama(alive)

[Sennin of Logic]

All right. This is a popular debate. After all, it's variaty VS focus. Let's analyze who can do what first, and who's more likely to win (it can go either way) Let's start off with Tobirama since he came first.

Water style- He has significant water style skills. He's able to use water style on the same level as Zabuza without a water source while not at full power. Meanning his water style is extremely strong if he has a water source.

FTG- Tobirama has FTG. He can mark things by touching them. He can then teleport to it's general location. He can teleport other things along with him if he touches it with his body or chakra. I's assuming he can teleport to his clones at any time like Minato since he said that doing so "doesn't cut it." This indicates he had experience with it.

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He has FTG slash, but I think it's the same thing as what Minato does when he slashes people with FTG. It was never stated it required no marks, and since it's classified as FTG, it, by default, must require marks.


Edo tensei- Tobirama has reanimation. I doubt he was cruel enough to have many sacrifices, so he probably didn't have an army. He has techniques that destroy the reanimation's body temporarily, but makes powerful attacks. He has the continuous explosions. His edos don't have their full power in life though.

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It's possible that he has even stronger attacks given Madara's statement of reanimation.

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Speed and reflexes-

Tobirama was fast enough to get to the battlefield before Sasuke.

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It's possible that Sasuke organized his team for a bit, but Tobirama would still would have to be at least as fast as Sasuke which is an immense speed feat in of itself. As for reflexes, he'd have to have great ones in order to mark Obito(even if he was blasted in half to do so).


Minato:


Has FTG LV2- Minato can do anything Tobirama can with FTG. However, he can put marks on his kunai and use them to set up FTG instantly.

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He can also teleport to a kunai while it travels. This can be used to catch almost any enemy off guard and defeat almost any defense.

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He has space-time barriers that create portals from one of his kunai to another. I'm certain he doesn't have to be in contact with a kunai since he managed to teleport the Juubi's TBB away without being in sight.

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It had to have been space-time barrier since Minato was in base mode and the Juubi's TBB was way larger than the full 9 tails, which exhausted Minato to FTG.

Ransengan-

Ransengan is a lethal jutsu(contrary to popular belief). It not only has powerful explosions, but its rotation when it makes contact and explodes does massive internal damage. This was proven when Kabuto's skin was completely healed at the spot where he was hit with a ransengan, yet coughed blood(a tell-tale sign of internal bleeding).

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The simple fact is, the only people who have survived ransengan are those who regenerate. Also, Minato can make ransengans as large as early shippuden giant ransengans(which were extremely powerful).

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Sealing-

Minato also was a master at sealing jutsu, which was so powerful, the entire Uzamaki clan was targeted for extinction because of it.

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So what is it capable of? Here's what Iruka(a chunin) could do with sealing.

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He didn't even have any contact with Naruto.

It was strong enough that Naruto used KCM to break out. So Minato, most likely, has way stronger sealing. Here's an example of his barrier/sealing/

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He felt that he could restrain the full 9 tails with a barrier long enough to do what he was planning even with low chakra. One could make the argument that Minato was telling Kushina to do it. However, Minato was surprised when she did it, so he was planning to do it himself.

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Sealing can do a variety of things, but this is probably the most common that we've seen other than sealing edos. He can also get rid of summons with reverse contract seal.

summons-

Minato can summon boss toads like Gamabunta. As you know, he was able to go toe to toe with a tailed beast. His water style was strong enough to counter most of Shukaku's air bullets. In fact, he fired 2 liquid bullets

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Gamabunta fired 2, Shukaku fired 5. Only one got through, so Gamabunta's liquid bullets are about twice as strong as the shukaku's air bullet. With Gamabunta, Minato has a lot of power backing him up.

Speed and reflexes- Minato's speed far outclasses that of any hokage. He managed to get to the battlefield, stop the juubi's TBB, and have a conversation with Naruto before the other hokages arrived.

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As for reflexes, his are really good as well. He managed to teleport away from Obito with only getting his arm cut off(it was a set up, but it was still incredible considering Obito's speed).


Who would win-

I say Minato. Please procede to read reasons before raging(I know most fans aren't like that, just thought I'd add some humor and warning to those that would).

The reasons-

I at first believed that when Tobirama fans were making excuses when they said that all FTG's are instant. However, I stumbled on a scan that supports their claims.

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The anime says, "instant dimensional transportation." This is the basic description of the jutsu. So Tobirama's FTG=Minato's in speed. The only way for either to beat each other is to mark them at some point so neither could react. Here's the reason why Minato beats Tobirama in using FTG though.

Minato can set up FTG pretty much instantly while Tobirama has to move to individual locations to set up FTG. This makes him vulnerable to a FTG LV 2 blitz and marking before he can set up his FTG.

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Also, Since Minato can set up many spots at once while it takes Tobirama time to set up each one and Minato's faster in base speed than Tobirama, Tobirama's 10X more likely to get marked than Minato. Minato can see where Tobirama's making a new mark and throw a kunai at that location for instance.

Some people make the argument that Tobirama can flood the kunai away, but there's several reasons why that method doesn't work.

1. Space-time barrier can be used to protect the kunai that's closest to the water style.

2. Gamabunta can easily overpower Tobirama's water style with his own.

3. Moving the kunai doesn't really prevent Minato from using FTG. He just needs a place to escape from. It doesn't matter where unless he's specifically targeting Tobirama's marks.

4. This is a double-edged sword. Gamabunta could probably use water style to turn the ground where Tobirama's marks are into mud, destroying the marks while Minato's kunai are intact.

Tobirama's edos aren't as strong as they were in life, so they most likely aren't going to be a hindrance to Minato other than the suicide techniques. This is countered by Minato using FTG, or by using space-time barrier. Minato can destroy the edo's bodies and seal them quickly. Also, if Minato touches Tobirama, he can use reverse contract seal to get rid of the edos.

If neither can mark one another in the fight, Tobirama would most likely win because of senju stamina. However, Minato's no slouch at stamina since he became a jinchuriki, which requires massive chakra to stand.

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Considering the points I listed above, it's far more likely that Minato would Mark Tobirama before that happened. Especially since Minato wouldn't let Tobirama set up his FTG.

Hope you appreciate this VS Thread. Vote through the polls and post your thoughts

 

[Touken]

Can we please wait for Tobirama feats.

 

[Fecal Matter]

How is being faster than Sasuke a huge feat?

 

[Sennin of Logic]

How is being faster than Sasuke a huge feat?

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Being faster than that is an immense speed feat.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Can we please wait for Tobirama feats.

He can't be much better than what's being shown. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been beaten by the gold and silver brothers when he had the help of the 2nd raikage.

 

[Touken]

He can't be much better than what's being shown. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been beaten by the gold and silver brothers when he had the help of the 2nd raikage.

We don't even know the full story; there's the possibility it was an ambush, completely taking both Kage off guard. Actually, it had to have been, only them two were planning a coup so they weren't gonna go all guns blazing against 2 Kage.

 

[Fecal Matter]

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Being faster than that is an immense speed feat.

Yet Deidara was able to react to the same shunshin speed twice.Come on now being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean much especially when your opponents can react to it.The gap between Minato and Tobirama in shunshin is really huge.

1.Minato placed a kunai in another location

2.warped it

3.Had a conversation with his son

then Tobirama came.:eww:

 

[Sennin of Logic]

We don't even know the full story; there's the possibility it was an ambush, completely taking both Kage off guard. Actually, it had to have been, only them two were planning a coup so they weren't gonna go all guns blazing against 2 Kage.

It had to have been a long and drawn out battle. They certainly couldn't have beaten someone of Tobirama's level with their base skills without the tools.

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Considering Tobirama was left for dead, he wasn't beaten by the tools. Only option left is that one or both of the brothers went to jinchurike version 2.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Yet Deidara was able to react to the same shunshin speed twice.Come on now being faster than Sasuke doesn't mean much especially when your opponents can react to it.The gap between Minato and Tobirama in shunshin is really huge.

1.Minato placed a kunai in another location

2.warped it

3.Had a conversation with his son

then Tobirama came.:eww:

I'm just saying Tobirama's speed is impressive. I made the same point as you on how much faster Minato was than Tobirama. I'm just giving Tobirama credit on being fast.

 

[Touken]

It had to have been a long and drawn out battle. They certainly couldn't have beaten someone of Tobirama's level with their base skills without the tools.

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Considering Tobirama was left for dead, he wasn't beaten by the tools. Only option left is that one or both of the brothers went to jinchurike version 2.

They had the tools in their possession since right after the attack on the Raikage & Hokage, they were banished from Kumo.

We still don't know how this battle went and we can't measure Tobirama's power through just Gin & Kin.

Wait for feats, otherwise, this battle's biased as Minato has shown more than Tobirama.

 

[xxSasukEkUnxX]

Can we please wait for Tobirama feats.

You want more feats when he has jumped from low-kage to high kage tier in 4 chapters? Christ. Anyways all forms of minato stomp mid-diff. Goujo Kibaku Fuuda is an edo tensei technique, and using kage bunshin to switch will not work as you need two people AND Minato's speed is instantaneous, while Tobirama stated his speed was inferior (he said shunshin, but when referring to his hiraishin he has always said shunshin, and he teleported the kage there at least 3-4 seconds slower than minato's warp and S/T barrier), while S/T barrier absorbs and warps all of the Suitons and the master set up of the field will counter ANYTHING TOBIRAMA CAN POSSIBLY DO

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This is how it will go. Minato is the one on the higher plane while tobirama is on the lower plane. The small dots represent where the kunai will go. The blue lines represent the Suiton, which can practically go across the field. However, minato's scattered kunai are implanted everywhere, from both around to under their range, giving him liable teleports both behind and in front of tobirama or to the side. From every range these techniques can be Space Time Barrier'd. The arrows represent both shunshin maximum with hiraishingiri. Minato, being able to jump to a rocky surface and clear several meters instantly, has the advantage in this field too. The arrows also indicate where they can and will go, minato has dodging at every corner of the field and is completely out of tobirama's range. The blue circle around tobirama indicates the damage and range that Minato's rasengan has, while the circle all around them is the range Gamabunta and Food Cart destroy has. Low-mid diff.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

They had the tools in their possession since right after the attack on the Raikage & Hokage, they were banished from Kumo.

We still don't know how this battle went and we can't measure Tobirama's power through just Gin & Kin.

Wait for feats, otherwise, this battle's biased as Minato has shown more than Tobirama.

No, it was way before the attack.

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This was before the leaf existed. They fought Kurama with their tools.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

You want more feats when he has jumped from low-kage to high kage tier in 4 chapters? Christ. Anyways all forms of minato stomp mid-diff. Goujo Kibaku Fuuda is an edo tensei technique, and using kage bunshin to switch will not work as you need two people AND Minato's speed is instantaneous, while Tobirama stated his speed was inferior (he said shunshin, but when referring to his hiraishin he has always said shunshin, and he teleported the kage there at least 3-4 seconds slower than minato's warp and S/T barrier), while S/T barrier absorbs and warps all of the Suitons and the master set up of the field will counter ANYTHING TOBIRAMA CAN POSSIBLY DO

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This is how it will go. Minato is the one on the higher plane while tobirama is on the lower plane. The small dots represent where the kunai will go. The blue lines represent the Suiton, which can practically go across the field. However, minato's scattered kunai are implanted everywhere, from both around to under their range, giving him liable teleports both behind and in front of tobirama or to the side. From every range these techniques can be Space Time Barrier'd. The arrows represent both shunshin maximum with hiraishingiri. Minato, being able to jump to a rocky surface and clear several meters instantly, has the advantage in this field too. The arrows also indicate where they can and will go, minato has dodging at every corner of the field and is completely out of tobirama's range. The blue circle around tobirama indicates the damage and range that Minato's rasengan has, while the circle all around them is the range Gamabunta and Food Cart destroy has. Low-mid diff.

Nice demonstration.

 

[Touken]

You want more feats when he has jumped from low-kage to high kage tier in 4 chapters? Christ. Anyways all forms of minato stomp mid-diff. Goujo Kibaku Fuuda is an edo tensei technique, and using kage bunshin to switch will not work as you need two people AND Minato's speed is instantaneous, while Tobirama stated his speed was inferior (he said shunshin, but when referring to his hiraishin he has always said shunshin, and he teleported the kage there at least 3-4 seconds slower than minato's warp and S/T barrier), while S/T barrier absorbs and warps all of the Suitons and the master set up of the field will counter ANYTHING TOBIRAMA CAN POSSIBLY DO

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This is how it will go. Minato is the one on the higher plane while tobirama is on the lower plane. The small dots represent where the kunai will go. The blue lines represent the Suiton, which can practically go across the field. However, minato's scattered kunai are implanted everywhere, from both around to under their range, giving him liable teleports both behind and in front of tobirama or to the side. From every range these techniques can be Space Time Barrier'd. The arrows represent both shunshin maximum with hiraishingiri. Minato, being able to jump to a rocky surface and clear several meters instantly, has the advantage in this field too. The arrows also indicate where they can and will go, minato has dodging at every corner of the field and is completely out of tobirama's range. The blue circle around tobirama indicates the damage and range that Minato's rasengan has, while the circle all around them is the range Gamabunta and Food Cart destroy has. Low-mid diff.

He jumped from low kage to high kage due to two feats. I'm fairly sure he'll be getting more feats.

This was before the leaf existed. They fought Kurama with their tools.

The Leaf was the first village to exist and yet it says 'The Hidden Cloud tried to capture the beast for itself!'

 

[xxSasukEkUnxX]

He jumped from low kage to high kage due to two feats. I'm fairly sure he'll be getting more feats.


The Leaf was the first village to exist and yet it says 'The Hidden Cloud tried to capture the beast for itself!'

Get mad, fapboy.

 

[Touken]

Get mad, fapboy.

Hey, why did you tell me to get mad? Or call me a fapboy?

 

[pateuvasiliu]

Minato takes this.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

He jumped from low kage to high kage due to two feats. I'm fairly sure he'll be getting more feats.


The Leaf was the first village to exist and yet it says 'The Hidden Cloud tried to capture the beast for itself!'

My bad, but it was still before Tobirama became 2nd hokage.

 

[Touken]

My bad, but it was still before Tobirama became 2nd hokage.

I can't tell if you're doing this on purpose.

Tobirama was definitely a Hokage since Hashirama didn't go to form an alliance with Kumo and because the Kage represent their respective villages. Tobirama represented Konoha because he was Hokage and the 2nd Raikage represented Kumo because he was Raikage.

 

[xxSasukEkUnxX]

I can't tell if you're doing this on purpose.

Tobirama was definitely a Hokage since Hashirama didn't go to form an alliance with Kumo and because the Kage represent their respective villages. Tobirama represented Konoha because he was Hokage and the 2nd Raikage represented Kumo because he was Raikage.

Minato pre-rasengan casually could take out fleets without gamabunta and Tobirama lost to 20 jounin and Ginkaku and Kinkaku who can be beaten with average level intelligence (and minato is second only to itachi).. you were saying?