[Discussion] Indie game developer cursing and shaming on twitter

[EnDash]

taken from geekosystem.com:
"Bad news if you loved the indie game Fez and were anxiously awaiting the sequel, Fez II. It looks like after a heated argument on Twitter, developer Phil Fish canceled the game. He’s confirmed the cancellation to both Polygon and Joystiq, and the game’s publisher Polytron tweeted that the game is canceled as well. So what happened?

When news broke that indie developers would be able to publish games for the Xbox One, and even develop the games on the system itself, games journalists turned to indie developers for comment. When they asked Fish for comment, he refused.

Marcus “AnnoyedGamer” Beer took issue with what he thought was a snub to journalists on Fish’s part. Beer called Fish a slew of insulting names on the GameTrailers show Invisible Walls, and demanded the press ignore Fish when he releases a new game. Beer also made reference to Indie Game: The Movie, which outlined Fish’s struggles to get Fez made. It’s also very clear in the video that Beer doesn’t like Fish."

after that phil fish went on twitter into a flame war with Marcus Beer, since then phil fish's twitter feed has been locked but GameTrailers (which employ Marcus Beer) has pictures of it here:

You must be registered for see links

Phil Fish is a successful indie game developer who successfuly published a game about a month ago. he is also a subject in a public movie and to some an idol as a successful game developer in the industry. for him to talk like that is it disturbing espacily in a public and family friendly site like twitter. on the other hand the person has been cricitized many times by many not nice people, and developing and publishing a game is not easy.

what do you think? is this going to be the future of journalism and public speech? flame wars on twitter or facebook? will press conferences be replaced by Q and A on the internet?

 

[Parrish]

Yeah I don't care, mainly because no one plays Indie Games. (No offense)

 

[Aim64C]

Yeah I don't care, mainly because no one plays Indie Games. (No offense)

Seriously?

Indie games are where the games are at. Call of Duty is the new Madden. There's a new one every year, and who really cares, anymore?

Small development groups that are, essentially, "indies" that bothered to register as a legal institution have developed such smash hits as "State of Decay" and games like Minecraft have swept the industry.

Back on topic:

The ease of game development, these days, has led to a lot of 'casual development.' Good game programmers and developers can have volatile personalities - it's just that in the indie world - where you're the dev team and the PR team - that can become more obvious.

I wouldn't call "twitter" family friendly.

That said - I've noticed the gaming industry taking on a more hostile approach to gamers. The number of scandals and childish antics by developers is pretty bad:

[video=youtube;54s_jyjMUxY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54s_jyjMUxY[/video]

Some of the smaller titles in development are the worst offenders - with threats and intimidation against customers requesting refunds.

 

[Parrish]

Seriously?

Indie games are where the games are at. Call of Duty is the new Madden. There's a new one every year, and who really cares, anymore?

Small development groups that are, essentially, "indies" that bothered to register as a legal institution have developed such smash hits as "State of Decay" and games like Minecraft have swept the industry.

lol no, and did I say CoD? No I didn't. Minecraft and DayZ are the only good Indie games out right now.

 

[Darthlawsuit]

Yeah I don't care, mainly because no one plays Indie Games. (No offense)

The only games worth playing are indy games or small developer games. Big name games have been screwed over.

Also, the guy is a game developer not a politician. Who cares how he talks if his game is good.

 

[Parrish]

The only games worth playing are indy games or small developer games. Big name games have been screwed over.

Also, the guy is a game developer not a politician. Who cares how he talks if his game is good.

Your definition of big name games is different from mine.

 

[EnDash]

The ease of game development, these days, has led to a lot of 'casual development.' Good game programmers and developers can have volatile personalities - it's just that in the indie world - where you're the dev team and the PR team - that can become more obvious.

I wouldn't call "twitter" family friendly.

That said - I've noticed the gaming industry taking on a more hostile approach to gamers. The number of scandals and childish antics by developers is pretty bad:

[video=youtube;54s_jyjMUxY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54s_jyjMUxY[/video]

Some of the smaller titles in development are the worst offenders - with threats and intimidation against customers requesting refunds.

the same can be said about gamers towards the industry. are gamers not as hostile to developers as developers are to gamers?

video game is not easy by any means, you don't spend 4 years sitting on a couch drinking martini. and when you spend countless hours and piles of money on something and someone bashes it in 5 seconds it hurts. his game was both his career and his dream, he desreves at least respect for the sweat he put into it.

 

[EnDash]

Yeah I don't care, mainly because no one plays Indie Games. (No offense)

non taken. then again you are wrong, indie games sells by hunderds of thousends by the end of their shelf life. successful ones reach a million (the industry standart of successful AAA game). the best selling indie games are on par with a successful AAA game (the best selling AAA game is ofcourse on a much higher level).

 

[Parrish]

non taken. then again you are wrong, indie games sells by hunderds of thousends by the end of their shelf life. successful ones reach a million (the industry standart of successful AAA game). the best selling indie games are on par with a successful AAA game (the best selling AAA game is ofcourse on a much higher level).

Maybe my comment came off wrong, I know that their games can be good, but It's rare.

 

[EnDash]

Maybe my comment came off wrong, I know that their games can be good, but It's rare.

fair enough, but still this particualr person made a game called Fez, which sold 200,000 units. it's nothing stellar but with 10 dollars a piece thats 2 million dollars.

but please let's talk about the topic as well, do you think the future will look like this? politicans cursing other politicans or journalists bashing public figures and vice versa?

 

[Parrish]

fair enough, but still this particualr person made a game called Fez, which sold 200,000 units. it's nothing stellar but with 10 dollars a piece thats 2 million dollars.

but please let's talk about the topic as well, do you think the future will look like this? politicans cursing other politicans or journalists bashing public figures and vice versa?

It'll only get worse. Media now hypes things up that aren't even a big deal (Zimmerman Case).
So yes the more the Media gets involved the worse it'll get.

 

[Aim64C]

lol no, and did I say CoD? No I didn't. Minecraft and DayZ are the only good Indie games out right now.

What I'm saying is that the "big title" games are having trouble selling because they are no longer innovative or represent an interesting title. The Call of Duty series became popular with its single-player element that was very engaging and told a good story. The multiplayer was, also, filling a sort of gap that was left behind by a weak Medal of Honor showing.

The story-lines are still pretty good and well delivered - but the objectives are the same, the story elements somewhat repetitive, and the whole experience leaving you feel like it could all be done with DLC as opposed to a whole new title release.

Deep down, gamers are also starting to change in their pattern of play. Games aren't fulfilling. They're distractions, time-passers, or social outlets. A lot of established hobby shops have noticed an up-tick in activity and interest, particularly from younger generations. Hobbies that actually reward a sense of fulfillment are becoming more popular.

Which means that indie games have also seen a bit of a rise in interest. They offer somewhat new and innovative experiences that work well in the "I've got twenty minutes to kill" time-slot. Others play heavily off of the social aspect.

Though it depends, really, on what you classify as an indie title. There will always be the "lol I wrote a program and put it on the istore for $1" crowds. The indie market is getting more attention in the mobile development market - where big-names have yet to really take over or be effective.

Let's be honest, how many people bothered with MassEffect for Android?

Me neither. Plague Inc. is much more entertaining.

Those groups are kind of starting to bleed over into platforms like Xbox Live Arcade and Playstation Network. The flood of graphic arts students with no outlet for their degrees are also helping drive the industry. It's not hard to find good graphic artists on forums who will gladly join up with a small development team and use what they feel is a hobby to contribute. Then they get 20% of the game's sales (or however the group worked it out).

Which means development overhead for these small games can be almost null. ... Which is also why you get the "lol I wrote a program" type stuff, too.

the same can be said about gamers towards the industry. are gamers not as hostile to developers as developers are to gamers?

They can be - but that doesn't really hold water. You can't blackmail customers who request a refund through a service you have opted to use.

That's way over the line.

video game is not easy by any means, you don't spend 4 years sitting on a couch drinking martini. and when you spend countless hours and piles of money on something and someone bashes it in 5 seconds it hurts. his game was both his career and his dream, he desreves at least respect for the sweat he put into it.

Videogames are and aren't easy.

The problem many developers make when choosing their game is just not planning and analyzing. PGI is having huge troubles with one of their titles, right now, because they decided to use the CryEngine. The way in which the CryEngine goes about handling certain things causes huge problems when you try and place them into the type of semi-simulator game they are trying to make.

I've actually advocated them dropping the CryEngine, entirely, and picking up a more simulator-friendly engine such as RealVirtuality - which supports more scripting and has better multiplayer features for the type of game they are trying to create.

Of course - they also made the huge mistake of saying they were going to drop the beta tag in September... the game is barely in an alpha state (compared to games like Path of Exile and Arma III's public beta/alpha).

They could still drop the 'launch' date and the engine, convert their resources and re-learn the RealVirtuality engine... and probably end up with a much better title by this time next year... but that's simply not going to happen.

In the mean time - the developers are pushing very poorly conceived mechanisms and contraptions for game balance that countless intelligent individuals have pointed out will only increase developer workload and be impossible to balance against player behavior.

Those points are "noise" as stated by lead developers.

So the title will likely fail in the long run. It's just unfortunate because it's been over ten years without a new title in that particular intellectual property line - and it is a great universe that trumps the depth and detail of Star Wars.

 

[EnDash]

They can be - but that doesn't really hold water. You can't blackmail customers who request a refund through a service you have opted to use.

That's way over the line.

in the extreme cases game developer's lives are being threatend by gamers. yes most of those are just kids taking out steam with no real threat but the same with developers. a gamer can get so angry when a developer makes a remake or a port or a sequel that wasn't good that he will constantly send horrible emails or bash them at every chance he have. saying thinks like "i will kill you" or "i will send a bomb to your house". Developers are just as human and take their steam out on the gamer crowd. but usually it doesn't mean anything.

Videogames are and aren't easy.

The problem many developers make when choosing their game is just not planning and analyzing. PGI is having huge troubles with one of their titles, right now, because they decided to use the CryEngine. The way in which the CryEngine goes about handling certain things causes huge problems when you try and place them into the type of semi-simulator game they are trying to make.

I've actually advocated them dropping the CryEngine, entirely, and picking up a more simulator-friendly engine such as RealVirtuality - which supports more scripting and has better multiplayer features for the type of game they are trying to create.

Of course - they also made the huge mistake of saying they were going to drop the beta tag in September... the game is barely in an alpha state (compared to games like Path of Exile and Arma III's public beta/alpha).

They could still drop the 'launch' date and the engine, convert their resources and re-learn the RealVirtuality engine... and probably end up with a much better title by this time next year... but that's simply not going to happen.

In the mean time - the developers are pushing very poorly conceived mechanisms and contraptions for game balance that countless intelligent individuals have pointed out will only increase developer workload and be impossible to balance against player behavior.

Those points are "noise" as stated by lead developers.

So the title will likely fail in the long run. It's just unfortunate because it's been over ten years without a new title in that particular intellectual property line - and it is a great universe that trumps the depth and detail of Star Wars.

ask those PGI developers what they think about dropping all their work and starting from scratch with a new engine. tell them that all the work they put on that title they make doesn't reach over alpha level and see their reaction. you are also forgetting that they have deadlines to meet and budgets to stay inside. not every developers is a talented bastard who can make gold every time he get near a computer. msot developers will accept all reviews even those telling them that their game is one of the worst in history. but very few will tolerate you saying the work they put in was worthless. they at least deserve respect for the work they put into a game if not for the final result.

 

[Aim64C]

in the extreme cases game developer's lives are being threatend by gamers. yes most of those are just kids taking out steam with no real threat but the same with developers. a gamer can get so angry when a developer makes a remake or a port or a sequel that wasn't good that he will constantly send horrible emails or bash them at every chance he have. saying thinks like "i will kill you" or "i will send a bomb to your house". Developers are just as human and take their steam out on the gamer crowd. but usually it doesn't mean anything.

Yet even EA offered free games to those who were impacted by the "cannot log on" issue surrounding SimCity.

EA. The -worst- company as rated by analysts.

ask those PGI developers what they think about dropping all their work and starting from scratch with a new engine. tell them that all the work they put on that title they make doesn't reach over alpha level and see their reaction.

That's the wonder of being a beta tester.

It's your job to provide them feedback. You tell them what is missing - you tell them what is working - you tell them what is broken. You tell them where they need to make improvements.

That's the point of beta-testing.

There are a surprising number of developers, however, who do not actually pay attention to the educated and experienced crowd.

you are also forgetting that they have deadlines to meet and budgets to stay inside.

No, I'm not.

To be blunt - a lot of game developers do not seem to keep this in mind when they start in on a project. They always under-estimate their resource costs and hardly ever do they utilize proper methods of cost analysis before embarking on a project. They'll spend a hundred thousand dollars hammering down a blind alley to find out it's a dead-end - when better communication within the company would have very quickly and easily revealed the flawed premises that led to the decision in the first place and revealed that it would be a dead-end.

not every developers is a talented bastard who can make gold every time he get near a computer.

The problem is that these developers exist.

The other problem is that, due to the fact that they are incompetent, they cannot realize the fact that they are incompetent. This leads to their inherent rejection of good ideas and their adoption of inferior ideas.

There's a difference between someone who is going to put out a solid, good game with someone who is going to develop an epic game.

msot developers will accept all reviews even those telling them that their game is one of the worst in history. but very few will tolerate you saying the work they put in was worthless. they at least deserve respect for the work they put into a game if not for the final result.

This is not my experience - spare for a few institutions.

Even then, they tend to be motivated by economic pull rather than by good game design. World of Warcraft, for example, has become a bland experience that caters to its social aspects and the casual player who wants to get and make pretty lights. The game actually offers little in terms of variety and genuinely entertaining game experiences, these days. Which is all due to listening to feedback on the forums.

It's still a successful game - it's still a solid game - but it's a bland game that is still successful simply because of its title and reputation.

In the case of the developers I was talking about - the fact is becoming clear that the technological requirements of the game exceed what the engine can realistically provide - at least under the terms of their license (which restricts access to certain elements of source code, I imagine).

In the case of announcing a launch date - it instilled an artificial deadline that they didn't need to (since they are under an open beta and have a number of funding architectures already in place). The game lacks critical features for a team-based multiplayer (such as integrated VOIP in a shooter/sim type atmosphere). There isn't even a lobby or a basic community warfare aspect.

It's serial deathmatch that does absolutely nothing to bring the player into the universe it stems from.

They are, realistically, a month away from launch. Community Warfare aspects don't exist and can't be beta tested (it is in "Late design, early development"). Their new UI solution has been "a few weeks away" for the past 6 months.

Quite bluntly - they don't know what the **** they are doing. There is no way that the game is going to be presentable when they drop the beta prefix and the game critics and reviewers come through to write reviews that will stand on sites for years to come.

We've been telling them exactly what's wrong with what they are doing.

And we're the same crowd that told Blizzard that it was a bad idea to do always-online with Diablo 3.

Later, when EA decided to launch a new SimCity - we told them the same thing (because, apparently, Spore and Diablo 3 didn't teach them anything).

We do kind of know what we're talking about.