[Discussion] The placement of Naruto vs Sasuke

[BONTUL]

Guess it's safe to say that Hashi vs. Madara is the real main event and we've yet to see that. Naruto vs. Sasuke should come out as an undercard.

 

[kuramasage]

Kishi doesn't design fights based on power really. Obito will probably be the peak of power in the series, followed by Madara, but Kishi will probably find a way to resolve them probably through teamwork with Obito and possibly a restored bond between Madara and Hashirama.

Naruto and Sasuke will be the final fight only because it fits Kishimoto's bonds, new generations surpassing the older, and it represents the Yin Yang balance. Their ideals and place in the story will perfectly match the resolution, and Kishi will work around that. Just my 2 cents though

I think plot suggests Obito should've been the final villain as well personally. As you've alluded to in your theories, Obito is the SO6P, Sasuke is the Elder Son, and Naruto is the Younger Son.

To me this logically should mean: Naruto (Younger) and Sasuke (Elder) have their fight. Naruto wins leaving Sasuke to reassert his motives. Naruto is left with the task of succeeding the SO6P (like the Younger). Naruto and Sasuke (the Sons) reconcile with Sasuke having decided to let Naruto try things his way (what the Elder should have done). Naruto is able to defeat Obito (the SO6P) thanks to Sasuke's help and goes on to unite the world and bring peace (fulfilling the Younger's goal from the SO6P).

 

[GhostProject]

I think plot suggests Obito should've been the final villain as well personally. As you've alluded to in your theories, Obito is the SO6P, Sasuke is the Elder Son, and Naruto is the Younger Son.

To me this logically should mean: Naruto (Younger) and Sasuke (Elder) have their fight. Naruto wins leaving Sasuke to reassert his motives. Naruto is left with the task of succeeding the SO6P (like the Younger). Naruto and Sasuke (the Sons) reconcile with Sasuke having decided to let Naruto try things his way (what the Elder should have done). Naruto is able to defeat Obito (the SO6P) thanks to Sasuke's help and goes on to unite the world and bring peace (fulfilling the Younger's goal from the SO6P).

A good idea, and I think this is what Kishi was originally aiming for when he had Minato say Naruto will be the one to defeat Obito. Now though, I think Kishimoto is trying to avoid having an obvious 2nd place between Naruto and Sasuke.

Since the beginning, the Sons conflict and Hashi/Madara's conflict resulted because Yin and Yang were out of balance. If Sasuke were to essentially admit 2nd place, it would kind of undermine Naruto's resolve that him and Sasuke either succeed or fail together as equals after the 5 Kage Summit, and their admit of equals at the Valley of End.

Older plot suggested Obito vs Naruto to be the final fight, but more recent plot suggests Naruto vs Sasuke I think.

 

[kuramasage]

A good idea, and I think this is what Kishi was originally aiming for when he had Minato say Naruto will be the one to defeat Obito. Now though, I think Kishimoto is trying to avoid having an obvious 2nd place between Naruto and Sasuke.

Since the beginning, the Sons conflict and Hashi/Madara's conflict resulted because Yin and Yang were out of balance. If Sasuke were to essentially admit 2nd place, it would kind of undermine Naruto's resolve that him and Sasuke either succeed or fail together as equals after the 5 Kage Summit, and their admit of equals at the Valley of End.

Older plot suggested Obito vs Naruto to be the final fight, but more recent plot suggests Naruto vs Sasuke I think.

That makes a lot of sense. I think you hit the nail on the head, this is what Kishimoto is probably trying do. But, it's still real problematic. At the end of the day, the name of the manga is Naruto.
I think it'd be really stupid if Naruto and Sasuke are perfect equals by the end. A major part of the series early on and Naruto's character was his desire to surpass and beat Sasuek. And again he is the main character. He really should be be higher than Sasuke in the finale (and that's if he lives).

 

[GhostProject]

That makes a lot of sense. I think you hit the nail on the head, this is what Kishimoto is probably trying do. But, it's still real problematic. At the end of the day, the name of the manga is Naruto.
I think it'd be really stupid if Naruto and Sasuke are perfect equals by the end. A major part of the series early on and Naruto's character was his desire to surpass and beat Sasuek. And again he is the main character. He really should be be higher than Sasuke in the finale (and that's if he lives).

True, but I think Kishimoto has been slowly and subtly making it to where Naruto's development is not dependent upon power, but his philosophies. The most recent developments in his character is the understanding that he cannot accomplish what he needs to do without the help of others, and his most recent power up was essentially inspiring the Nine-Tails and the Bijuu to believe in him.

Naruto will surpass everyone in the fact of how much he can influence the good in people, but he will never admit surpassing Sasuke because I think he understands that the mistakes of the past will be repeated if he doesn't bring peace to Sasuke's hatred.

If Naruto was still developed the same as in part 1, I think we would just see the 'Naruto becomes the most powerful ending,' but based on recent developments, I doubt either him or Sasuke will actually become more powerful than Juubi Obito in the end. It will most likely be about the influence they bring to the future, and how Naruto fixes the conflict of the Sons.

 

[H a n]

Most likely. :I Or they will do it Dragon Ball GT style.

 

[kuramasage]

True, but I think Kishimoto has been slowly and subtly making it to where Naruto's development is not dependent upon power, but his philosophies. The most recent developments in his character is the understanding that he cannot accomplish what he needs to do without the help of others, and his most recent power up was essentially inspiring the Nine-Tails and the Bijuu to believe in him.

Naruto will surpass everyone in the fact of how much he can influence the good in people, but he will never admit surpassing Sasuke because I think he understands that the mistakes of the past will be repeated if he doesn't bring peace to Sasuke's hatred.

If Naruto was still developed the same as in part 1, I think we would just see the 'Naruto becomes the most powerful ending,' but based on recent developments, I doubt either him or Sasuke will actually become more powerful than Juubi Obito in the end. It will most likely be about the influence they bring to the future, and how Naruto fixes the conflict of the Sons.

But, there's one problem. What did the Younger Son and Hashirama do wrong? In fact, while we don't know about the Younger Son, Hashirama did everything he could do help Madara fix his problems. Really, the issue with The Younger Son and the Elder Son + Hashirama and Madara is that the latter in both cases couldn't get over their sh*t.

Both those feuds are because the Elder and Madara couldn't let go of their egos. Sasuke's the one who should be responsible for ending the Senju vs Uchiha feud. Sasuke is an egomaniac, that's not bashing and there are more dimensions to him, but this is still a major part of his character. For the conflict to end IMO Sasuke needs to let go of his pride and do what the Elder and Madara should have done:

Decide to support his brother/friend and help him accomplish his goal.

 

[GhostProject]

But, there's one problem. What did the Younger Son and Hashirama do wrong? In fact, while we don't know about the Younger Son, Hashirama did everything he could do help Madara fix his problems. Really, the issue with The Younger Son and the Elder Son + Hashirama and Madara is that the latter in both cases couldn't get over their sh*t.

Both those feuds are because the Elder and Madara couldn't let go of their egos. Sasuke's the one who should be responsible for ending the Senju vs Uchiha feud. Sasuke is an egomaniac, that's not bashing and there are more dimensions to him, but this is still a major part of his character. For the conflict to end IMO Sasuke needs to let go of his pride and do what the Elder and Madara should have done:

Decide to support his brother/friend and help him accomplish his goal.

Possibly, but the problem is that the blame doesn't matter, it's the end result that keeps coming from the inability for them to come together.

Hashirama didn't do everything he could to support Madara, he felt that they had reached true peace and took a passive approach to the Senju v Uchiha conflict he thought was gone. He didn't see what Madara saw with Tobirama and the other Senju's coming political dominance which would eventually lead to Uchiha genocide. Madara was a friend in need and pretty much went insane because nobody would help/listen to him.

Madara or Sasuke knew/know if they are the sole ones to admit fault, then the other side would win and Uchiha go down as the bad guys. It's a grayish morality area, but Uchiha do need some justice after being politically destroyed after the war, and Madara was the only one who saw it coming.

I respect your opinion on what the Elder Sons should do, but I don't think the responsibility rests with Sasuke alone, because if he gives in, he denies his people justice. Meanwhile, Naruto can't exactly just let Sasuke redesign the world.

They have to come to an agreement together, if one side wins, the hatred doesn't stop, it just gets passed on as we've seen with the previous Sons. Sasuke is pretty much a friend in need that needs some guidance, I wouldn't expect him to 'bigger man' this just yet. Naruto is going to have to reach through to him and come to a compromise that will allow Sasuke to let go of his hatred. It's a team effort sort of thing I think.

 

[kuramasage]

Possibly, but the problem is that the blame doesn't matter, it's the end result that keeps coming from the inability for them to come together.

Hashirama didn't do everything he could to support Madara, he felt that they had reached true peace and took a passive approach to the Senju v Uchiha conflict he thought was gone. He didn't see what Madara saw with Tobirama and the other Senju's coming political dominance which would eventually lead to Uchiha genocide. Madara was a friend in need and pretty much went insane because nobody would help/listen to him.

Madara or Sasuke knew/know if they are the sole ones to admit fault, then the other side would win and Uchiha go down as the bad guys. It's a grayish morality area, but Uchiha do need some justice after being politically destroyed after the war, and Madara was the only one who saw it coming.

I respect your opinion on what the Elder Sons should do, but I don't think the responsibility rests with Sasuke alone, because if he gives in, he denies his people justice. Meanwhile, Naruto can't exactly just let Sasuke redesign the world.

They have to come to an agreement together, if one side wins, the hatred doesn't stop, it just gets passed on as we've seen with the previous Sons. Sasuke is pretty much a friend in need that needs some guidance, I wouldn't expect him to 'bigger man' this just yet. Naruto is going to have to reach through to him and come to a compromise that will allow Sasuke to let go of his hatred. It's a team effort sort of thing I think.

I respect your opinion but I feel you're being biased towards the Uchiha here.

Hashirama did do everything. He wanted to make Madara the 1st, and when that failed, 2nd Hokage. If Madara had a problem with Tobirama he should have been the bigger man and talked to him about it and reached a compromise. We can argue all we want but, at the end of the day, Madara is responsible for his own actions.

Look if Sasuke genuinely changes and wants to repent then he should be allowed to live. But, I think it would be rather poor morals on Kishimoto's part if Naruto is never willing to kill Sasuke. We can talk about peace and love and all that, but at the end of the day life is harsh. Sometimes we have to do what needs to be done. If Sasuke keeps trying to attack Konoha and Naruto can't ever get through to him then Naruto needs to kill him. It may be harsh but that's the right thing to do.

I do think that Naruto will get through to Sasuke. But they won't reach a compromise. Sasuke will reconcile and support his friend. That's the way things should end.

 

[GhostProject]

I respect your opinion but I feel you're being biased towards the Uchiha here.

Hashirama did do everything. He wanted to make Madara the 1st, and when that failed, 2nd Hokage. If Madara had a problem with Tobirama he should have been the bigger man and talked to him about it and reached a compromise. We can argue all we want but, at the end of the day, Madara is responsible for his own actions.

Look if Sasuke genuinely changes and wants to repent then he should be allowed to live. But, I think it would be rather poor morals on Kishimoto's part if Naruto is never willing to kill Sasuke. We can talk about peace and love and all that, but at the end of the day life is harsh. Sometimes we have to do what needs to be done. If Sasuke keeps trying to attack Konoha and Naruto can't ever get through to him then Naruto needs to kill him. It may be harsh but that's the right thing to do.

I do think that Naruto will get through to Sasuke. But they won't reach a compromise. Sasuke will reconcile and support his friend. That's the way things should end.

Fair enough. I might be a little biased, but Senju political dominance did lead to genocide. Madara knew he wouldn't get 2nd hokage without Hashirama's political pull. I just see Madara and Sasuke as friends that were in need of support, and they can't be expected to do the right thing in a mind set like that.

It's not all Naruto's responsibility, but if he wants to end the wars and bring peace to the Ninja system, he's going to have to take most of the responsibility and initiate peace for Sasuke, most likely by bringing acknowledgment to the wrongs committed against the Uchiha, not that they were entirely innocent. Sasuke just would probably support Naruto if he were given peace of mind over his clan's name.

This also means not giving Sasuke a second place sort of existence, otherwise Yin Yang imbalance and it leads to war and such. I just think pushing the blame to Sasuke at this point is a bad move that would give Naruto the ending he doesn't want. He's got to try his best to understand him and stop his rage.

We definitely got to wait and see, as both of our opinions are huge possibilities, and Kishimoto has foreshadowed to both. It's an interesting topic, I just think that Naruto is the only one who can solve this, not that it should necessarily be him, but that it's the only way.

 

[osba]

orochimaru for endboss.

 

[kuramasage]

Fair enough. I might be a little biased, but Senju political dominance did lead to genocide. Madara knew he wouldn't get 2nd hokage without Hashirama's political pull. I just see Madara and Sasuke as friends that were in need of support, and they can't be expected to do the right thing in a mind set like that.

It's not all Naruto's responsibility, but if he wants to end the wars and bring peace to the Ninja system, he's going to have to take most of the responsibility and initiate peace for Sasuke, most likely by bringing acknowledgment to the wrongs committed against the Uchiha, not that they were entirely innocent. Sasuke just would probably support Naruto if he were given peace of mind over his clan's name.

This also means not giving Sasuke a second place sort of existence, otherwise Yin Yang imbalance and it leads to war and such. I just think pushing the blame to Sasuke at this point is a bad move that would give Naruto the ending he doesn't want. He's got to try his best to understand him and stop his rage.

We definitely got to wait and see, as both of our opinions are huge possibilities, and Kishimoto has foreshadowed to both. It's an interesting topic, I just think that Naruto is the only one who can solve this, not that it should necessarily be him, but that it's the only way.

Yeah, guess we'll just have to wait and see =D.

But, I do think that would be horrible morals on Kishimoto's part.
''Remember everybody if somebody decides to destroy you're homeland, slaughter all it's inhabitants including the women and children, and actively tries and wants you to be the first he slays over something only 5 villagers (of whom only 2 remain) did (and for very good reasons) then you should bent over and give them power.''

Again I'm not saying Sasuke has to die. But for him to not only get no punishment but instead be made one of the 2 most powerful people in the world/country politically would be in horrible taste.

 

[OopsWrongHole]

It could happen like a decade after the war where their both older, far stronger each & fight over the Title of Hokage.

 

[The Work]

It might just be a rivalry for hokage fight then turn into a deadly battle

 

[saw2097]

Yeah, guess we'll just have to wait and see =D.

But, I do think that would be horrible morals on Kishimoto's part.
''Remember everybody if somebody decides to destroy you're homeland, slaughter all it's inhabitants including the women and children, and actively tries and wants you to be the first he slays over something only 5 villagers (of whom only 2 remain) did (and for very good reasons) then you should bent over and give them power.''

Again I'm not saying Sasuke has to die. But for him to not only get no punishment but instead be made one of the 2 most powerful people in the world/country politically would be in horrible taste.

That's exactly what I have been saying, I don't like the idea that they bend over and give him power to end the curse of hatred.

I have never been a fan of this "the only way to break the curse of hatred is to make Sasuke Hokage" idea, Sasuke is the one that needs to change.