[FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

A counter evidence is that naruto could only make 4 clones with large stamina enough to gather SM while could make hundreds to fool deva path. In fight with neji he had to split evenly to fool neji

No, he didnt give those clones the chakra, he had the chakrawhich was divided by 4, with him and the 4 clones each having 20% of his chakra.

I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make, please elaborate for me. Feel free to make a wall of text, just make sure it all revolves around the point you are trying to make.

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Jyuubi is made of natural energy. Kurama and other Bijuus are made of chakra. Two different things. It has nothing to do with "spirit".

Natural energy makes Narutos chakra:
a) better in quality
b) bigger by 33,3%

Its clear that SM Naruto is weaker than KCM Naruto, since Kuramas chakra is vastly bigger than Narutos, even in SM. However, natural energy would work in the same way with Kuramas chakra. If BM Naruto combined his chakras with natural energy it would make them:
a)better in quality
b)bigger by 33,3%

Therefore, BM/SM would be much, much stronger than BM Naruto.

Yes, if BM naruto could combine his chakra with natural energy that would work. But you dont combine chakra with natural energy to get senjutsu, you combine yin and yang energies with natural energy to get senjutsu, the fact that you are working with chakra should already tell you that senjutsu is now out of the question...

 

[Turson]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Yes, if BM naruto could combine his chakra with natural energy that would work. But you dont combine chakra with natural energy to get senjutsu, you combine yin and yang energies with natural energy to get senjutsu

Yes, obviously, thats what I was talking about.

the fact that you are working with chakra should already tell you that senjutsu is now out of the question...

?

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

The way we are interpreting what we are seeing in the scan is going to be a point of contension for us. While you see it saying all the chakra was used for the attack, I see it showing that since 50% of his chakra is gone and shadow clones, which it is, split ones chakra between the 2 clones that that is pure proof that chakra is not returned when the clone is killed. Kakashi's Chidori outputs the same amount of chakra that that lighting that struck the pain path, and yet he uses it countless times without showing signs of a significant chakra drain.

We wont ever agree on this because we are seeing 2 different things when we look at the same scan, and I doubt i could ever convince you to see things my way and vice versa. Good day sir, great chat

Yeah, we observe this differently. But it was a good debate anyway. I'm going to make a thread about shadow clones to those who think it divides KCM power eventually.

 

[MickNerks]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

I strongly disagree and think you are severly miscalculating naruto's chakra reserves.

Even if naruto makes 20 clones each clone would still have more chakra then someone like kakashi.

You have no real defintion of naruto chakra reserves as a whole so how can you say that creating clones will be a short coming.


Naruto summoned 12 kyuubi clones and went out to each battlefield.

Then when he got to the 3rd raikage, he was able to enter sage mode and still defeat the raikage, whilst also having other clones at other locations. It didnt seem as though his clones were weakend at all by the abundance he made.​

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Yes, obviously, thats what I was talking about.

?

Oh I didnt know, ok, tell me more about how Naruto, while in BM, manipulates Kurama's yin and yang energies and his yin and yang energies to create senjutsu. o__o

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

I strongly disagree and think you are severly miscalculating naruto's chakra reserves.

Even if naruto makes 20 clones each clone would still have more chakra then someone like kakashi.

You have no real defintion of naruto chakra reserves as a whole so how can you say that creating clones will be a short coming.


Naruto summoned 12 kyuubi clones and went out to each battlefield.

Then when he got to the 3rd raikage, he was able to enter sage mode and still defeat the raikage, whilst also having other clones at other locations. It didnt seem as though his clones were weakend at all by the abundance he made.​

Its as simple as this, Naruto with 100% of his Chakra is going to be exactly 66% stronger than Naruto with 2 clones standing by gathering nature energy for senjutsu. And therefore the technique leaves the original Naruto weaker. Now lets compare this to the definition of "Short-coming."

Short-Coming - : an imperfection or lack that detracts from the whole; also : the quality or state of being flawed or lacking. [1]

Now dont get me wrong, onces Naruto releases the technique and gets the chakra back he is in good shape, but until that happens he is at a disadvantage, not this disadvatage, to hardcore naruto fans which is evidently everyone, may or may not effect him, since everyone seems to think he has limitless chakra (Thats why pain tapped that a** requiring him to need help from several people to beat him) but i disgress..

All I am saying is that SM reducing Naruto's chakra supply by 66% is a detriment which is no longer neccesary now that he has KCM, which my theory also suggests that both cannot be used at the same time, and so he may still use SM but rather than having 2 clones on stand by for when it runs out he will just switch over to KCM instead.

Am I being fair when I say this?

*Note: It is funny that you bring up the war because he didnt use this technique during the war, only during his fight with pain. I am merely stating that we are going to see alot less of shadow clones gathering senjutsu for naruto now that he has KCM.*

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

No, he didnt give those clones the chakra, he had the chakrawhich was divided by 4, with him and the 4 clones each having 20% of his chakra.
I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make, please elaborate for me. Feel free to make a wall of text, just make sure it all revolves around the point you are trying to make.

In order to get SM one needs wast stamina. Naruto had enough stamina to divide by 5 (him and 4 more clones)
If this clones didnt have enough chakra on their own they wouldn't be able to get SM.

While fighting deva SM naruto had created hundreds of clones, but this clones had much less stamina. They were mere replications, fodders, none of them had chakra needed to harness natural energy.

This shows that one can chose how much chakra to give to clones, of course some minimum is required.
Neji himself stated that naruto divided evenly not that its divided so on its own. Madara too mentioned that hashi gave too little power to his clone in latest chapter.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Jyuubi is made of natural energy. Kurama and other Bijuus are made of chakra. Two different things. It has nothing to do with "spirit".

Juubi is the progenitor of everything therefore nature energy originated from juubi's body and spirit, hence the reason you cant discriminate it from nature.
Juubi does have spirit cuz its conscious emotional being and not a dead rock or w/e.

Natural energy makes Narutos chakra:
a) better in quality
b) bigger by 33,3%

Better in quality yes, 33% no proof. We dont know proportions used here. However his stamina goes down fast cuz chakra is constantly burned due to complete enhancement of whole body not just jutsus, hence the time limit.

Its clear that SM Naruto is weaker than KCM Naruto, since Kuramas chakra is vastly bigger than Narutos, even in SM. However, natural energy would work in the same way with Kuramas chakra. If BM Naruto combined his chakras with natural energy it would make them:
a)better in quality
b)bigger by 33,3%
Therefore, BM/SM would be much, much stronger than BM Naruto.

The power generated by any mode depends on 2 things, strength of the chakra and rate at which it is burned by body enhancement. A quantity only makes impact on duration, nothing else a quality of chakra and burn rate determine actual power. A BM is nothing but KCM with more chakra consumption, a KCM V2 basically.
Its like mixing alcohol and water, no quantity of alcohol will make it stronger then 100%.

There are 2 limits here:
Chakra quantity that determines duration.
Body resource limit. In other words a body cannot sustain huge chakra release for too long w/o drawbacks. It seen in Gai's gates, 1-4 tails naruto, even sasuke using susanoo. It also determines duration but its a more dire drawback.

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

In order to get SM one needs wast stamina. Naruto had enough stamina to divide by 5 (him and 4 more clones)
If this clones didnt have enough chakra on their own they wouldn't be able to get SM.

While fighting deva SM naruto had created hundreds of clones, but this clones had much less stamina. They were mere replications, fodders, none of them had chakra needed to harness natural energy.

This shows that one can chose how much chakra to give to clones, of course some minimum is required.
Neji himself stated that naruto divided evenly not that its divided so on its own. Madara too mentioned that hashi gave too little power to his clone in latest chapter.

I cant believe your actually arguing this point.... Im not even going to argue, litterally I am not going to. What I am arguing isnt opinion, it is a fact that the manga has reiteratted time and time again. I am not going to take every instance that you believe to go against it and explain in detail how said instance actually does what it does.

This is a direct word for word qoute from the wiki, which myself know is not a great source, but I know that this is backed up by the manga I just dont have the time to look it up. Re-read the first few chapters where Naruto steals the scroll. The jutsu is forbidden for a reason and the divided chakra is one of them:

"Because of the manner in which the clones are created, the user must divide their chakra among the clones, potentially using up all their chakra fairly quickly if the user is low on chakra or makes too many clones. This is especially problematic when the forbidden form of the technique, Multiple Shadow Clone Technique, is used; whereas the normal version will only create a few clones, the Multiple Shadow Clone Technique can create hundreds."

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Well if that is really so, wouldnt naruto drop dead or fall defeated after few blows just like those clones that hold same power as he does. Wouldnt the stats get divided by number of clones and after hundreds of them he would turn into a fodder?

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Well if that is really so, wouldnt naruto drop dead or fall defeated after few blows just like those clones that hold same power as he does. Wouldnt the stats get divided by number of clones and after hundreds of them he would turn into a fodder?

He taps into Kurama's Chakra which is seperate from his when he is low on chakra. I believe kakashi spoke on this when he was training Naruto to use Rasenshuriken, I will look it up when I have more time on my hands.

But you raise an extremely good point.

 

[AlphaScythian]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

He taps into Kurama's Chakra which is seperate from his when he is low on chakra. I believe kakashi spoke on this when he was training Naruto to use Rasenshuriken, I will look it up when I have more time on my hands.
But you raise an extremely good point.

At that time naruto could not do that. While FRS trainning the problem was that kurama could overtake due to low chakra, but its true at the moment.

As far i remember the only problem with shadow clones was that it's pretty chakra taxing thus it was kage level and like any heavy jutsu risk of out of chakra, losing fight or death.

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

At that time naruto could not do that. While FRS trainning the problem was that kurama could overtake due to low chakra, but its true at the moment.

As far i remember the only problem with shadow clones was that it's pretty chakra taxing thus it was kage level and like any heavy jutsu risk of out of chakra, losing fight or death.

As I inferred I am not exactly sure where I saw it, it would be like me asking you where you learned math, you know you know math, but you cant remember who taught you.

Give me till tomorrow as I am at work now and cant go rummaging through scans x__x, especially for something I think needs no explaining. But perhaps it is something alot of people overlooked and took for granted as being fact. We shall see after I search for it.

 

[rollin]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Naruto already used bijuu mode and sage mode

You must be registered for see links

 

[Xlad]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

I think Rollin had the best answer. I understand the valid points you brought up though.

 

[MickNerks]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Its as simple as this, Naruto with 100% of his Chakra is going to be exactly 66% stronger than Naruto with 2 clones standing by gathering nature energy for senjutsu. And therefore the technique leaves the original Naruto weaker. Now lets compare this to the definition of "Short-coming."

Short-Coming - : an imperfection or lack that detracts from the whole; also : the quality or state of being flawed or lacking. [1]

Now dont get me wrong, onces Naruto releases the technique and gets the chakra back he is in good shape, but until that happens he is at a disadvantage, not this disadvatage, to hardcore naruto fans which is evidently everyone, may or may not effect him, since everyone seems to think he has limitless chakra (Thats why pain tapped that a** requiring him to need help from several people to beat him) but i disgress..

All I am saying is that SM reducing Naruto's chakra supply by 66% is a detriment which is no longer neccesary now that he has KCM, which my theory also suggests that both cannot be used at the same time, and so he may still use SM but rather than having 2 clones on stand by for when it runs out he will just switch over to KCM instead.

Am I being fair when I say this?

*Note: It is funny that you bring up the war because he didnt use this technique during the war, only during his fight with pain. I am merely stating that we are going to see alot less of shadow clones gathering senjutsu for naruto now that he has KCM.*

Ahhh, now i see where we disagree.

You believe that when naruto creates a clone that he becomes weaker becuase he has to split his chakra in up.

This is simply not true. When naruto creates a clone he simply loses chakra, but he doesnt loose his strength.

Even if naruto makes 20 sage mode clones, he would still possess all his enhanced physical strength, sensing abilities, unmatched reflexes, chakra strength, and enhanced speed. The only thing that he would have lost would be chakra reserves.

But for someone like naruto this is not a problem becuase he is a uzumaki and has the largest chakra reserve in all the managa (especially now that he merged his chakra with kurama), so even if he does make clones, his clones still have way more chakra than at least 75% of the other ninja in the manga.

My point in all this being that, just becuase naruto makes clones in sage mode, doesnt actally make his clones or himself weaker. It just means that there chakra reserves are divided. But his strength, and the strenght of his techinque's dont deminish. And he still keeps all his abilities.

In closing. If naruto makes 1000 clones and they all are in sage mode; that 1000th clone would still be able to accomplish this feat:

You must be registered for see images

As this has nothing to do with his chakra reserves but is his strength alone. That 1000th clone would still be a kage level shinobi, it wouldnt have HOKAGE level reserves



P.S to your note. Naruto has used sage mode 4 times during the war, you may have simply forgotten. Also clone gathering isnt necessary anymore as it takes naruto less than a second to enter sage mode now. And once he runs out of senju chakra, then he would simply go to kyuubi mode (As you stated in your post).​

.

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Spoiler

Ahhh, now i see where we disagree.

You believe that when naruto creates a clone that he becomes weaker becuase he has to split his chakra in up.

This is simply not true. When naruto creates a clone he simply loses chakra, but he doesnt loose his strength.

Even if naruto makes 20 sage mode clones, he would still possess all his enhanced physical strength, sensing abilities, unmatched reflexes, chakra strength, and enhanced speed. The only thing that he would have lost would be chakra reserves.

But for someone like naruto this is not a problem becuase he is a uzumaki and has the largest chakra reserve in all the managa (especially now that he merged his chakra with kurama), so even if he does make clones, his clones still have way more chakra than at least 75% of the other ninja in the manga.

My point in all this being that, just becuase naruto makes clones in sage mode, doesnt actally make his clones or himself weaker. It just means that there chakra reserves are divided. But his strength, and the strenght of his techinque's dont deminish. And he still keeps all his abilities.

In closing. If naruto makes 1000 clones and they all are in sage mode; that 1000th clone would still be able to accomplish this feat:

You must be registered for see images

As this has nothing to do with his chakra reserves but is his strength alone. That 1000th clone would still be a kage level shinobi, it wouldnt have HOKAGE level reserves



P.S to your note. Naruto has used sage mode 4 times during the war, you may have simply forgotten. Also clone gathering isnt necessary anymore as it takes naruto less than a second to enter sage mode now. And once he runs out of senju chakra, then he would simply go to kyuubi mode (As you stated in your post).

Spoiler

.

No, I dont believe making a clone makes him weaker, I believe, like I said in the reply, that creating a clone reduces his chakra by a dividend of clones made... o__O?

 

[FearxDeath]

Re: [FEAR] Shadow Clone & Sage Mode Analysed: Sage Mode Extension No longer Viable

Naruto already used bijuu mode and sage mode

You must be registered for see links

No, he alternated between the two, he didnt incorparate both