[Debate] Bogard vs Prince Charles

[takiyacrowz]

Rebutal​

Genjutsu counters

First of all, i'd like to point out the fact that all Itachi's genjutsu are made in close range battle. Whether it is against

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, against

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, or against

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This is also confirmed by the databook



So for Itachi to actually even start thinking about puting Jiraya in a genjutsu, it would have to happen in a close range battle. Here is where the problem begins since Jiraya is a long range fighter using and abusing of his superior ninjutsu

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Or summons

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Jiraya being a long range fighter, Itachi would have difficuties to find opportunities to place Jiraya in a genjutsu and take advantage of it.

Also, contrary to the popular belief, Kai release can break out of any genjutsus including Itachi's. The reason why Itachi's tsukuyomi is unbreakable is not because of the power of it, but because it takes time in few seconds, so not giving time to the opponent to use kai release and break it. Now it depends on the users skills while using the kai release method. Like Jiraya said, to break genjutsu, you must try your best to stop your chakra flow

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. Doing that will break any genjutsu. That's

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.

Jiraya

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, the one he used on a woman to distract him, something that Itachi noticed, which shows he is skilfull in breaking genjutsus

Naruto for example was capable to break

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that Itachi gave, but still wasn't able to overcome the genjutsu completely. The reason behind this, Itachi already gave it himself. It's because he

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. That again shows that a more skilful kai release user could have broken Itachi's genjutsu completely

Another example is the Orochimaru vs Itachi battle. Itachi managed to put Orochimaru in

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. Since Kai release needs both hands to be together to be performed, it's for that reason Orochimaru struggled to break it. But Orochimaru could have broken it if he managed to put his hands together in time. He was already close to it even. It's for that reason that

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So like you can see, breaking Itachi's genjutsu isn't impossible at all, far from it actually. Depends now on the opponents skills in using the kai release method. But in general, genjutsu is used to create a diversion for a following attack, not to defeat the enemy

Those are the reasons why i believe that Jiraya could have broken Itachi's genjutsu if necessary. He has already shown the skill even. But would Itachi allow it to happen? That's probably where the real debate is

Anyway, like Jiraya also said, if yourself is incapable to break a genjutsu,

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. Jiraya always starts battles with summons as partners [

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] [

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] [

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So even if either of them was caught in a genjutsu at some point, the other will make him free from it exactly like a Jinchuriki's method for example. Gamabunta has shown the capacity

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, so he could use this method that would break Jiraya free from it and vice verse

Those are the main reasons why i believe genjutsu won't be an issue in this fight

Ninjutsu superiority

Jiraya is one of the most skilful ninjutsu user in the entire manga. Minato even said he thinks

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. During their encounter in part1 even, both Itachi and Kisame were

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that they were already trapped by Jiraya's jutsu from the start, which could be considered as a testament of Jiraya's skilful use of ninjutsu

Here is where the problem begins since Jiraya is a long range fighter using and abusing of his superior ninjutsu

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Or summons

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Talking about summons, my opponent forgot to talk about Gamabunta's help here. His suiton weree huge enough to even counter Shukaku's high level of fuuton technique(see above), so it will render Itachi's use of Katons meaningless and more importantly, Jiraya will even take advantage of it in the ninjutsu battle

Not only that, but like my opponent stated, Jiraya could also use combo attacks as powerful

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. Just to make you remember,

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, but himself look like shit compared to this jutsu. So Itachi won't survive if he receives an attack of this scale and unfortunately for him, he doesn't possess the ninjutsu arsenal to counter or even evade it

Jiraya also has high level of long range attacks thanks to his hair, capable to easily destroy huge summons

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Those are the reasons why i believe Jiraya would totally dominate the ninjutsu battle

How does Jiraya counters Amaterasu:

Jman already has

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. So he would be really cautious if he were to fight Itachi. Contrary to the popular belief, amaterasu is a

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that appears instantly withing a certain range, and from there begins

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the target(it's the reason why eventhough it almost appeared on Raikage, he had time to shunshin out of the way) and

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depending on where the user focuses. What i mean by that is that if a target is outside the range of amaterasu, it would be easier for him to notice it and therefore counter it with something in his arsenal. Sasuke for example was able

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during a while and use a

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to counter the jutsu. Killer-Bee also used a subtitution when he had no knowledge on the jutsu, and with knowledge he has shown that it was even able

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before he uses Amaterasu(which shows btw that Amaterasu needs some time of concentration to be released)

Jiraya who even already has knowledge on the jutsu. During the time Amaterasu would be released, he could use

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to protect himself and even

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at Itachi after that with his needle Senbon. Other method could be

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(burning a KB is useless).

Also, even without knowledge in part1, he directly created a counter for it in an instant with a

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How does Jiraya counter Susanoo:

Spoiler

Gaara helped us to know that

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. Well, Jiraya has a perfect counter for this with

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(Jiraya even said it was

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). It would totally make sink Itachi in this position with or without his Susanoo

If they are fighting in an enclosed area, Jiraya could capture him(Susanoo or not) in

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like he already did in part1. He can also create an opening to capture him in the

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like he did against Pain

Sasuke made us understand

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because of sound vibration. Well, Pa and Ma have

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(able to paralyse Pain summons). With this jutsu, it would be easy for SM Jiraya to paralyse Itachi and finish him either with his

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or

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or even something else in his arsenal.

We also know thanks to Kabuto, that

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, so Pa and Ma use this and he is done for:

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Stamina advantage:

Jiraya undoubtely has the stamina advantage since his chakra was huge enough to even allow him to use Sage Mode. He was spamming techniques since he entered Pain's territory and i never saw him run out of stamina in the entire manga. On the contrary, most of Itachi's powerful techniques take a lot of tole on his body.

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with more than

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and

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use of it

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greatly. It also gives the opportunity to the opponent to take advantage of it and finish him off

Jiraya wins :scorps:

incredible :bouncy:

 

[Prince Charles]

It seems the debate has begun. :scorps:

Regarding the close range matter it makes little to difference considering Itachi can easily get into range or jiraiya with his superior speed as shown against kurenai.[

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][

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] He kicks kurenai across the bridge where they are on and we see itachi in the next panel end up instantly behind her, he will no trouble getting into range with jiraiya. Like i said the crows can also be used to capture jiraiya into genjutsu.

Itachi isnt falling victim to itachis ranji shigami hair jutsu that he used on pain. Itach has already shown flawless reaction and evasive abilities in the manga they he displayed against kcm naruto and bee and the DSM kabuto fight. Even if jiraiya managed to capture him in the hair he can merely activate his sussano and get loose and simply cut the hair thats restraining him.

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which is said to be hard as steel.[

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] Cutting jiraiyas hair jutsu will be a cake walk.

Gamabunta is no threat here, i already mentioned how Itachi can perform a small portion amaterasu powerful enough to stop gamabunta in his tracks while he is screaming in pain, itachi can speed blitz over an explosive clone just like how he did against kurenai and kakashi [

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] Gamabunta will be too greatly injured to continue fighting.

Talking about summons, my opponent forgot to talk about Gamabunta's help here. His suiton weree huge enough to even counter Shukaku's high level of fuuton technique(see above), so it will render Itachi's use of Katons meaningless and more importantly, Jiraya will even take advantage of it in the ninjutsu battle

I see no reason why itachi cant activate a v2 sussano[

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]. I think this is a legit counter from stopping the water from reaching itachi.

Jman may have seen itachi use amaterasu but he has no knowledge on how it works or the signs that may help him dodge it. Fact is a base jiraiya isnt dodging amaterasu.

Contrary to the popular belief, amaterasu is a close range jutsu that appears instantly withing a certain range,

Haha thats funny the rinnegan dogs disagree [

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] further away or not amaterasu is still appearing too fast for jiraiya.
Sasuke was able to avoid it because itachi was making amaterasu follow him.. not appear instantly on him. Unless your saying curse mark 3 tomeo sasukes speed is comparable to raiton armor+shunshin?Orochimarus body shedding technique is a perfect counter to orochimaru which sasuke basically used when he got hit by amaterasu.

Sasuke used chidori spear to cut off a pierce of the 8 tails tentacle which provided bee with the means to use substitution.That situation was merely pure luck. Jman does not possess any one orochimarus body shedding substitution techs like what sasuke did which was a perfect counter nor does he possess a tailed beast in bees case.Yeah itachi just going to stand there and watch jiraiya seal amaterasu?

Jiraiya cant send by amaterasu with needle jazo it would be useless as seeing itachi can simply cancel [

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] noted by zetsu

i already went over ma and pa's sound genjutsu it simply takes too long. Not too mention yata miror will block and repel the sound, go ahead and try me i can back up this claim.I will go over this in my next post

As for stamina Itachi outlasted a curse mark level 2 sasuke[

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] sasuke saids he ran out of chakra which proves itachi great chakra controls and not stupidly using his jutsu.You talk of itachis stamina regarding that scan of him using tysukoyomi and zetsu talking.. did you not recall itachi using genutsu for nearly half the match plus being near blind and having a disease...? :| nice jobs backing your up stamina clams using a near blind itachi with a disease..

Your wrong regarding the scan where itachi talks about the 30% clone you interpreted it wrong... the fact that itachi pulled up a full armor sussano in the sasuke fight where his chakra was below 30% makes your comment invalid.

Another example is the Orochimaru vs Itachi battle. Itachi managed to put Orochimaru in a paralysing genjutsu. Since Kai release needs both hands to be together to be performed, it's for that reason Orochimaru struggled to break it. But Orochimaru could have broken it if he managed to put his hands together in time. He was already close to it even. It's for that reason that Itachi decided to interven before that


hint hint orochimaru was nearly able to... doesnt mean jiraiya will be able to 2 diffferent people the mental effect capability may take a harder toll on jiraiya

So like you can see, breaking Itachi's genjutsu isn't impossible at all, far from it actually. Depends now on the opponents skills in using the kai release method. But in general, genjutsu is used to create a diversion for a following attack, not to defeat the enemy

one word Tysukuyomi. gamabunta lending chakra to jiraiya is useless, one itachi wont let him, two even if gamabunta gets jiraiya out of tysukuyomi it will already be too late 1 second can be 5 hours of getting stabbed with a knife.

SWAMP OF UNDERWORLD

What happens to mud when heat starts to touch it? it starts to harden itachi has already been shown to be proficient in katon but a amaterasu would do a better job in getting the mud to start hardening. Amaterasu was able to revert the cave after muki tensei[

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]

So its plausible to assume amaterasu will make the swamp of underworld harden allowing him to walk on it.

 

[Prince Charles]

Another counter to swamp of the underworld

bogard also overlooked a certain aspect regarding sussano.[

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] The fact that sussano doesnt sink when its on water shows its plausible that it will be able to stand on the surface of the swamp of the under world. how does this help Itachi?

Look at itachi right here. he is shown to be able to stand outside of his sussano[

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]

this means if itachis falls victim to the swamp and seeing sussano may be able to still stand on top of it i see no reason why sussano arms cant grip itachi out of the swamp and hold him up.

Jiraya is one of the most skilful ninjutsu user in the entire manga. Minato even said he thinks he never met a more finer shinobi than him. During their encounter in part1 even, both Itachi and Kisame were surprised that they were already trapped by Jiraya's jutsu from the start, which could be considered as a testament of Jiraya's skilful use of ninjutsu


this was pretty useless considering Minato chose him as narutos god father you confuse respect with praise and hype too much. Itachi himself has already shown honorable feats in the field of ninjutsu in battles.

Not only that, but like my opponent stated, Jiraya could also use combo attacks as powerful as this one. Just to make you remember, Gamabunta is a huge as a Bijuu, but himself look like shit compared to this jutsu. So Itachi won't survive if he receives an attack of this scale and unfortunately for him, he doesn't possess the ninjutsu arsenal to counter or even evade it


It seems to me you keep bringing up gamabuntas long range with the collaboration of jiraiya without acknowledging the fact that the Yata mirror will block it.

 

[Prince Charles]

i will post one more thing because i want bogard to have time to reply.

I made a claim earlier saying Yata mirror will be able to repel the frog song from ma and pa. That so bull i have te scans to provide my argument.

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We are already aware of the Yata mirror correct? The thing is that people always doubt it wouldnt be able to protect against sound genjutsu which is false. Look back at part 1 when shikamaru is fighting that ninja thats uses the flute genjutsu. Temari intervened and was able to repel the flute genjutsu music back with her fan[

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][

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]. If a fan is capable of repelling sound genjutsu why cant a legendary mirror that is hyped by kishi himself do the same thing? So as you can see the Yata mirror will have no trouble repelling ma and pa's frog sound.

I want to go over bogards arrogant use of jiraiyas ninjutsu and how it will catch itachi(smh when it wont). Bogard simply doesnt take into consideration of Itachi reflexes and speed. As shown in the DSM kabuto fight he is capable of doing a

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This obviously gives hypes and praises itachis hand seal speed and shunshin blitz when even kabuto couldnt keep up.Jiraiya himself hasnt shown the best reaction time against asura pain which him his arms[

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][

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]. Itachi is simply too fast for jiraiya and if they get into a taijutsu close combat match for a bit, Itachi will be the winner due to his

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and his taijutsu mastery.

Smh bogard why cant you simply understand that Jiraiya isnt touching itachi? his evasive and speed capabilities are simply far too great.

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. Even with a injured leg Itachi was capable of evading sasukes katon base attacks![

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][

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]

Jiraiya wasnt even capable of evading the metal rod from one of the pains.[

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]. Regarding Toad Gourd prison you neglect the fact that jiraiya got lucky to get one of the pains in there because

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Itachi wont make this mistake.

Smh my head bogard the

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simply takes too much prep time, jiraiya actually had to seat there and write the damn sealing inscription. Base jiraiya is not dodging amaterasu neither is he laying a hand on Itachi thanks for the sharigan.

regarding your genjutsu section, i do admit jiraiya has some experience in braking genjutsu but your argument for tysukuyomi is invalid. 1 second in there can be 10 hours of getting stabbed, jiraiya will utterly collapse due to all that mental trauma. As for the paralysis genjutsu that itachi used on orochimaru i admit orochimaru may have possibly been able to cancel it but notice when he was trying to, his hands were trembling and it was a great task for him to try to put his hands together, the same would would happen to jiraiya by that time itachi can easily decapitate jiraiya or simply cut his hand off if he notices jiraiya is trying to brake it like orchimaru did.

you disregard itachis own words regarding tysukuyomi by saying jiraiya can brake it by using kai release?:|. Jiraiya may not even brake it due to the fact that

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[Bogard]

Uhm, the distance wasn't as large as you make it seems far from it actually. Look again. Kurenai was just breaking the genjutsu and Itachi

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. It's actually even impressive that Kurenai who was just immobilise a second before still managed to protect herself against Itachi's kick. She didn't go that far as well after said kick. If you look closely you'll notice that the distance between wheree she lands and the bridge isn't that great(

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). Also, because of the kick, there was a recover time on Kurenai's part. The time to recover and be on her feet again, Itachi had more than enough time to reach her back since he was the one in the offensive position at that moment. Kisame even warned Asuma for example for not paying attention. In kurenai's case she wasn't because of the recovery time after Itachi's kick. It wasn't as impressive as a speed feat as you think

This is totally different than what could happen if Itachi were to face Jiraya, who is a long range fighter like i've said. The time to enter in close range, it would give more than enough time to Jiraya to notice his presence and counter him with any of his mid-long range offensive ninjutsu

Actually entering close range for Itachi won't be wise at all for some reasons

1- To try to close the range during battle since he would most likely be caught by Jiraya's ranji shigami hair jutsu in this case. And no, no matter how fast Itachi can be, he isn't evading this jutsu in a close-mid range battle. The range and scale of the technique is simply too great. This technique alone would probably force Itachi to use Susanoo like he did to counter Kabuto's attack

2- He could get demolished by Gamabunta's high and powerful taijutsu, described even by databook as an unescapable taijutsu technique because of the speed of the taijutsu(with Gamabunta covering the distance in a blink of an eye)

Its strong hips and legs give birth to an uncommonly precise leap, with which it slices at its target. Since the interval is covered in the blink of an eye, the opponent can't even try to escape. Gamabunta uses this together with his huge dosu (Yakuza sword)

Itachi isnt falling victim to itachis ranji shigami hair jutsu that he used on pain. Itach has already shown flawless reaction and evasive abilities in the manga they he displayed against kcm naruto and bee and the DSM kabuto fight.

You mean impressive speed feat against someone who

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? You mean impressive speed feat against someone who was

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since

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? You mean impressive speed feat against someone who didn't even use his shunshin no jutsu during the entire skirmich? It's Naruto's shunshin that becomes incredible when he is in KCM. It doesn't mean that everything he does is with high speed. He still has 3.5 in taijutsu. Keeping up with a 3.5 in taijutsu isn't impressive at all, far from it actually. That performance downgrade Itachi if anything else. What is even impressive is the contrary, that someone with 3.5 in taijutsu like Naruto was capable to keep up with Itachi.

All that won't help Itachi to dodge Jiraya's technique anyway. You're severely overrating the importance of speed in this battle. We're talking about a ninjutsu battle here. Speed is important in close range combat. In a taijutsu battle, there is more space to fight and evade blows since the only threat is one human just as yourself. But ninjutsu is different and especially Jiraya's one. The range and speed of the technique of Jiraya's technique is that great that it won't give Itachi an opening to evade in time exactly like how he was overwhelmed by Kabuto's muki tensei for example

Even if jiraiya managed to capture him in the hair he can merely activate his sussano and get loose and simply cut the hair thats restraining him.

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which is said to be hard as steel.[

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] Cutting jiraiyas hair jutsu will be a cake walk.

True he can do it, but in Susanoo his reflexes slow down. And Jiraya could be following up with yomi numa that will make Itachi sink and finish the fight since Itachi has displayed no counter about this jutsu

Gamabunta is no threat here, i already mentioned how Itachi can perform a small portion amaterasu powerful enough to stop gamabunta in his tracks while he is screaming in pain, itachi can speed blitz over an explosive clone just like how he did against kurenai and kakashi [

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] Gamabunta will be too greatly injured to continue fighting.

Funny that you show this pic when we all know that Kakashi

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. The one who was fooled was Itachi who didn't notice Kakashi already switched with a water clone. Also, you're overrating Itachi's speed completely ignoring the range of the battle, the height and power of an opponent such as Gamabunta. Gamabunta himself has impressive speed feats since he even blitzed a Bijuu. Entering close range for Itachi won't be wise at all since he would get demolished by Gamabunta's high and powerful taijutsu, described even by databook as an unescapable taijutsu technique because of the speed of the taijutsu(with Gamabunta covering the distance in a blink of an eye)

Its strong hips and legs give birth to an uncommonly precise leap, with which it slices at its target. Since the interval is covered in the blink of an eye, the opponent can't even try to escape. Gamabunta uses this together with his huge dosu (Yakuza sword)

I see no reason why itachi cant activate a v2 sussano[

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]. I think this is a legit counter from stopping the water from reaching itachi.

Not really. The Kabuto vs Sasuke fight proved to use that Susanoo

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. I think the reason behind this is because of the properties of water that makes it an unstable substance. We've already seen that underground is Susanoo's weakness, so i believe that because of the overflowing water, it makes the Susanoo user unbalanced inside it

Jman may have seen itachi use amaterasu but he has no knowledge on how it works or the signs that may help him dodge it. Fact is a base jiraiya isnt dodging amaterasu.

Jiraya doesn't need to dodge it. Like i've said, he has more than enough ninjutsu in his arsenal to counter it. Whether it's with clones, kawarimi, needle jizo and so on. With needle he can even throw it back

Haha thats funny the rinnegan dogs disagree [

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] further away or not amaterasu is still appearing too fast for jiraiya.

True but what you totally missed or forgot to mention about this panel is that to increase the range of amaterasu like he did, he needed

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for his attack, said time giving the opportunity to Bee to almost cut his head with his blade if not Nagato. Jiraya in Bee's place could have either decided to finish him off with his long range attacks or simply substitute himself with a clone, or protect himself with needle jizo and fire it back

And we're talking about the Edo version of Itachi here, the one with no drawback who even uses

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without caring XD

Yeah itachi just going to stand there and watch jiraiya seal amaterasu?

What are you talking about? During this scenario i suppose Jiraya already prepared the scrolls of course. From there only

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(3 or so) will be needed and bye bye Amaterasu

Jiraiya cant send by amaterasu with needle jazo it would be useless as seeing itachi can simply cancel amaterasu[

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] noted by zetsu

It wouldn't be useless at all since he has the superiority in stamina here. Every MS technique Itachi would use will reduce his stamina and abilities greatly and that's what you totally misses here or forget to mention. He isn't as good as Sasuke with Amaterasu, so it will surely takes him a lot to try and stop amaterasu anytime

As for stamina Itachi outlasted a curse mark level 2 sasuke[

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] sasuke saids he ran out of chakra which proves itachi great chakra controls and not stupidly using his jutsu.

Because Sasuke ran out of chakra before him doesn't mean that Itachi has more chakra than him at all. All depends on how each opponent uses his chakra in a fight. A can have much more chakra than B, but if B uses only the strict minimum of his chakra during a fight against A where A is spamming his techniques with no control at all, then A will quickly run out of chakra long before B. It's called

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. Using Curse seal alone

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, and Sasuke was using it during the fight and even alterning the versions of it. Sasuke also used a

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ninjutsu that took a lot of his chakra, plus the fact he was using a part of his chakra to maintain Orochimaru in his body during the entire time and the huge katons techniques he created. All that were the reason why he ran out of chakra first

You talk of itachis stamina regarding that scan of him using tysukoyomi and zetsu talking.. did you not recall itachi using genutsu for nearly half the match plus being near blind and having a disease...? :| nice jobs backing your up stamina clams using a near blind itachi with a disease..

The drawbacks of MS techniques have nothing to do with Itachi's disease. Pain gave him a perfect body with his shouten no jutsu, yet he was still uncapable to use Ms techniques with more than 30% of his chakra

Your wrong regarding the scan where itachi talks about the 30% clone you interpreted it wrong... the fact that itachi pulled up a full armor sussano in the sasuke fight where his chakra was below 30% makes your comment invalid.

Seems that you don't understand that using MS techniques in particular have drawbacks especially in Itachi's case.

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, there is also the drawbacks of the technique. It's for that reason Itachi can't use it very often, it's for that reason that with 30% of his chakra, he couldn't use it at all.

I don't know how you were capable to rate Itachi's chakra, but what's wrong regarding that scan? Pain gave him a perfect body sacrificing 30% of his chakra, yet with the 30% of his chakra, on his own admission he couldn't use MS techniques. Another example can be in part1, and there there can't be any excuses. After just one tsukuyomi,

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, after

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, he needed to deactivate his Sharingan and put his body to rest. Why you are trying to argue against the manga so much and suddenly give Itachi capacities he has never shown in the manga keep surprising me

one word Tysukuyomi. gamabunta lending chakra to jiraiya is useless, one itachi wont let him, two even if gamabunta gets jiraiya out of tysukuyomi it will already be too late 1 second can be 5 hours of getting stabbed with a knife.

Tsukuyomi would be irrelevant in this fight. If you missed my post i said, tsukuyomi is a close range genjutsu

SWAMP OF UNDERWORLD

What happens to mud when heat starts to touch it? it starts to harden itachi has already been shown to be proficient in katon but a amaterasu would do a better job in getting the mud to start hardening. Amaterasu was able to revert the cave after muki tensei[

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]

So its plausible to assume amaterasu will make the swamp of underworld harden allowing him to walk on it.

Jiraya was

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around

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technique, yet nothing happened. So i don't think it would do a thing. And even if it does, if anything by hardening the mud in this condition it will immobilise Itachi if anything else since at the moment he would realise he is trapped in yomi numa,

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(his feet would already start sinking underground).

I also like the way you think alive Itachi is Edo Itachi. You keep saying Itachi would keep using amaterasu, Susanoo to counter each Jiraya's attacks without considering the heavy drawbacks it has on Itachi

 

[Bogard]

Speed argument:

My opponent uses Itachi's speed as an argument very often. It's for that reason i wanted to add this post to explain why the speed won't be important at all in this fight. I will just give some comparable examples.

He doesn't seem to understand that in speed there is body movement and shunshin. Shunshin can help to cover high distances really fast, a move than any high level ninja can use

Ninjas like Sasuke, Bee or Kakashi for example have as much speed feat if not greater than Itachi

Sasuke here totally blitzed Naruto with Shunshin:

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And here as well:

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Bee for example covered an insane distance in an instant here. He totally blitzed all taka with Shunshin when he was paralysed an instant earlier and Juugo was about to beat him. An instant earlier he was near mountains. He blitzed them so bad that they needed karin(a sensor) to localise him:

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An immobile nagato was able to get behind bee also.

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Excuses apart, Kakashi was keeping up with his speed just fine:

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Excuses apart, Itachi didn't even notice the chidori-shuriken and thus wasn't able to dodge it completely in time:

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Itachi was cut in half without reaction:

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In these examples i obviously exaggerated but it's to show my opponent how speed can be irrelevant in battle since all depends on the moment every action is used, the attention of the opponent, the distance and range between said opponents and so on, all details my dear Prince Charles totally doesn't take into consideration

 

[Prince Charles]

ill post my counter in a while

 

[pateuvasiliu]

I made a claim earlier saying Yata mirror will be able to repel the frog song from ma and pa.

What? Uhm, no.

 

[Murasame]

This is going to be a tough one to judge Lol is there a time limit to this? How does this end?

 

[Prince Charles]

wow i literally had my counter ready and my browser closed. wow... ill post it up again later bogard.

 

[Prince Charles]

What? Uhm, no.

actually it can seeing as those i already proved it can... and please refrain from commenting

 

[Prince Charles]

Uhm, the distance wasn't as large as you make it seems far from it actually. Look again. Kurenai was just breaking the genjutsu and Itachi was just infront of her. It's actually even impressive that Kurenai who was just immobilise a second before still managed to protect herself against Itachi's kick. She didn't go that far as well after said kick. If you look closely you'll notice that the distance between wheree she lands and the bridge isn't that great(she was just before said bridge). Also, because of the kick, there was a recover time on Kurenai's part. The time to recover and be on her feet again, Itachi had more than enough time to reach her back since he was the one in the offensive position at that moment. Kisame even warned Asuma for example for not paying attention. In kurenai's case she wasn't because of the recovery time after Itachi's kick. It wasn't as impressive as a speed feat as you think

It doesnt matter if the distance wasnt quite as large, your trying to downplay the shunshin feat but i wont fall your pathetic attempt. Fact of the matter is it was still an considerable radius and length between them.

It's actually even impressive that Kurenai who was just immobilise a second before still managed to protect herself against Itachi's kick.
what? Her putting up her hands against itachis kick isnt a feat, if she actually managed to escape the situation then yes we would have something to talk about but on the other hand your simply over exaggerating kurenais pathetic attempt to reduce the damage from itachis kick when it was futile.

Kisame even warned Asuma for example for not paying attention.
What type of blasphemy is this? Kisame was merely trying to imply asuma should pay attention to whats infront of him which was his enemy himself ( kisame ) if asuma didnt keep his eyes on the current situation involving kisame.... i mean honestly what do you think kisame meant when he said that to asuma?

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<---- the aime actually goes in greater detail of the fight. The manga shows the distance of kurenai getting kicked way too small while actually in motion picture the distance seems much more greater. Also in the anime you notice kurenai go back a few more inches due to the force kick, in the manga she gets kicked and stays in the same spot. While i do admit the distance isnt such a large portion its still an impressive feat never the less.

This is totally different than what could happen if Itachi were to face Jiraya, who is a long range fighter like i've said. The time to enter in close range, it would give more than enough time to Jiraya to notice his presence and counter him with any of his mid-long range offensive ninjutsu

You keep bring up jiraiyas advantage in close range combat when in reality itachi has shown more honorable feats and traits in the art of taijutsu.. do you want me to pull up more scans of itachis reaction time and evasive skills?

Actually entering close range for Itachi won't be wise at all for some reasons

1- To try to close the range during battle since he would most likely be caught by Jiraya's ranji shigami hair jutsu in this case. And no, no matter how fast Itachi can be, he isn't evading this jutsu in a close-mid range battle. The range and scale of the technique is simply too great. This technique alone would probably force Itachi to use Susanoo like he did to counter Kabuto's attack


You basically countered your own post... Itachi can use sussano to escape the ranji hair jutsu...

- He could get demolished by Gamabunta's high and powerful taijutsu, described even by databook as an unescapable taijutsu technique because of the speed of the taijutsu(with Gamabunta covering the distance in a blink of an eye)

You of gamabunta taijutsu being inescapable due to the speed of his taijutsu but yet pain was capable of evading gamabunta plus other boss toads![

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You mean impressive speed feat against someone who wasn't even trying to fight him at all? You mean impressive speed feat against someone who was almost at the end of Kyubi's chakra since he seperated his chakra into 22? You mean impressive speed feat against someone who didn't even use his shunshin no jutsu during the entire skirmich? It's Naruto's shunshin that becomes incredible when he is in KCM. It doesn't mean that everything he does is with high speed. He still has 3.5 in taijutsu. Keeping up with a 3.5 in taijutsu isn't impressive at all, far from it actually. That performance downgrade Itachi if anything else. What is even impressive is the contrary, that someone with 3.5 in taijutsu like Naruto was capable to keep up with Itachi.

smh it doesnt matter if they werent going all out serious, itachi still showed the capability of keeping up with kcm naruto along with Bee.

You mean impressive speed feat against someone who was almost at the end of Kyubi's chakra since he seperated his chakra into 22?

This is invalid since this happened way after their confrontation where naruto showed no signs of tiredness or fatigue! But nice job trying to down play Itachi once again.

You mean impressive speed feat against someone who didn't even use his shunshin no jutsu during the entire skirmich?

I wont bother replying to this when both sides werent going full out.

It's Naruto's shunshin that becomes incredible when he is in KCM. It doesn't mean that everything he does is with high speed. He still has 3.5 in taijutsu. Keeping up with a 3.5 in taijutsu isn't impressive at all, far from it actually.

It actually is when that person is in KCM mode... erm.. how old are the databooks? Nice job referring to old Db stats to help make your post seem more valid. Base naruto has already shown growth in his taijutsu when he fought against those cloud ninja.[

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That performance downgrade Itachi if anything else. What is even impressive is the contrary, that someone with 3.5 in taijutsu like Naruto was capable to keep up with Itachi.


......... Yeah because KCM mode doesnt improve naruto overall right?:|. I also applaud on ignoring the moments in the fight where itachi is able to keep up with Bee when Bee tries to pull a sneak one on him.

All that won't help Itachi to dodge Jiraya's technique anyway. You're severely overrating the importance of speed in this battle. We're talking about a ninjutsu battle here. Speed is important in close range combat. In a taijutsu battle, there is more space to fight and evade blows since the only threat is one human just as yourself. But ninjutsu is different and especially Jiraya's one. The range and speed of the technique of Jiraya's technique is that great that it won't give Itachi an opening to evade in time exactly like how he was overwhelmed by Kabuto's muki tensei for example


SO your saying Itachis speed isnt important when it comes to hm... i dunno? maybe dodging his mid range techs?:| from a distance?

The range and speed of the technique of Jiraya's technique is that great that it won't give Itachi an opening to evade in time exactly like how he was overwhelmed by Kabuto's muki tensei for example

So much fail Itachi reacted in time to muki tensei[

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] he could had easily evaded it but chose to protect sasuke.[

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Idk why you keep overrating jiraiyas ninjutsu when itachi clearly has shown the capability to react to them. Activating a rib cage sussanoo is more than enough to guard him self from jutsu like ranji shigami..

True he can do it, but in Susanoo his reflexes slow down. And Jiraya could be following up with yomi numa that will make Itachi sink and finish the fight since Itachi has displayed no counter about this jutsu


His reflexes in sussano is slow? link me.

Funny that you show this pic when we all know that Kakashi countered him at that moment. The one who was fooled was Itachi who didn't notice Kakashi already switched with a water clone. Also, you're overrating Itachi's speed completely ignoring the range of the battle, the height and power of an opponent such as Gamabunta. Gamabunta himself has impressive speed feats since he even blitzed a Bijuu. Entering close range for Itachi won't be wise at all since he would get demolished by Gamabunta's high and powerful taijutsu, described even by databook as an unescapable taijutsu technique because of the speed of the taijutsu(with Gamabunta covering the distance in a blink of an eye)

He countered him yet still fell victim to body explosion clone so whats your point? Look above i already showed you how pain was capable of evading gamabunta and 2 other boss toads.

Not really. The Kabuto vs Sasuke fight proved to use that Susanoo can't defend properly against Suiton attacks. I think the reason behind this is because of the properties of water that makes it an unstable substance. We've already seen that underground is Susanoo's weakness, so i believe that because of the overflowing water, it makes the Susanoo user unbalanced inside it

Lmfao what? that was clearly a rib cage sussano with an opening in the front.. it only covers surrounding sides. We cant expect the same outcome with a v2 sussano where its more fully armored. Not really since ninjas can walk on water even if the suiton starts to get above there feet underneath the bottom of sussano. You also forget with v2 sussano the arms can help repel the suiton with the use of the hands acting as a shield.

Jiraya doesn't need to dodge it. Like i've said, he has more than enough ninjutsu in his arsenal to counter it. Whether it's with clones, kawarimi, needle jizo and so on. With needle he can even throw it back

So a base jiraiya will be able to make the necessary hand seals for those jutsu in time for amaterusu? Doubt it.

True but what you totally missed or forgot to mention about this panel is that to increase the range of amaterasu like he did, he needed to concentrate the quantity of chakra necessary for his attack, said time giving the opportunity to Bee to almost cut his head with his blade if not Nagato. Jiraya in Bee's place could have either decided to finish him off with his long range attacks or simply substitute himself with a clone, or protect himself with needle jizo and fire it back

No your also didnt take into the account of the portion and size of how much amaterasu he used which is why the chakra concentration took a longer process, but in this case jiraiya isnt as big as a rinnegan dog so the portion used for amaterasu will be much more smaller which makes the concentration time will take less time.

Even when Itachi was fighting sasuke when he used amaterasu to counter sasukes katon? the distance between sasuke and itachi was extremely short, yet it still took itachi a considerable amount of time to pull off amaterasu because he was doing such a large scale of it.[

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Even with his eyes close and not having a direct view on the enemy a

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. So no, itachi wont easily fall victim to jiraiyas long range jutsu just because his concentrating for amaterasu, not too mention his clones can also use his MS techs.

What are you talking about? During this scenario i suppose Jiraya already prepared the scrolls of course. From there only some handseals(3 or so) will be needed and bye bye Amaterasu


Neither i do? but seems foolish that he will already have a fire scroll prepared..

Because Sasuke ran out of chakra before him doesn't mean that Itachi has more chakra than him at all. All depends on how each opponent uses his chakra in a fight. A can have much more chakra than B, but if B uses only the strict minimum of his chakra during a fight against A where A is spamming his techniques with no control at all, then A will quickly run out of chakra long before B. It's called chakra control. Using Curse seal alone takes a lot of the users strenght, and Sasuke was using it during the fight and even alterning the versions of it. Sasuke also used a high level kawarimi ninjutsu that took a lot of his chakra, plus the fact he was using a part of his chakra to maintain Orochimaru in his body during the entire time and the huge katons techniques he created. All that were the reason why he ran out of chakra first

Im already aware of the fact that just because outlasted sasuke doesnt mean he has more chakra that wasnt really the point of my post.

he drawbacks of MS techniques have nothing to do with Itachi's disease. Pain gave him a perfect body with his shouten no jutsu, yet he was still uncapable to use Ms techniques with more than 30% of his chakra

Yes it does, the disease obviously puts limitations on his body. You clearly see itachi grab his heart in pain and agonizing and cough up blood due to his disease in this panel[

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] in the next panel we see his sussano reverting back to its lower version.[

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] hint hint you do the math. Or maybe he didnt want to waste his MS techs on a 30% clone? when itachi pulled up sussano i bet my left nut his chakra reserves were below 30% or near there.

I don't know how you were capable to rate Itachi's chakra, but what's wrong regarding that scan? Pain gave him a perfect body sacrificing 30% of his chakra, yet with the 30% of his chakra, on his own admission he couldn't use MS techniques. Another example can be in part1, and there there can't be any excuses. After just one tsukuyomi, he was fatigued, after one Amaterasu, he needed to deactivate his Sharingan and put his body to rest. Why you are trying to argue against the manga so much and suddenly give Itachi capacities he has never shown in the manga keep surprising me

yeah because in part 1 he also didnt fight kakashi and kurenai and place a woman under genjutu fight?

Mate Itachi was nearly out of chakra during the last moment of the sasuke fight, he able to configure a full armor sussano. Are you telling me his chakra was still over 30% by then?

not too mention in the scan he saids the jutsu is limited he does specifically say which ones. Your trying to back up your argument due to the fact that he didnt use any MS techs when fact of the matter is he could had simply felt no need to use MS techs.

Tsukuyomi would be irrelevant in this fight. If you missed my post i said, tsukuyomi is a close range genjutsu


Tysukuyomi is a visual eye contact genjutsu as long as their eye contact the jutsu will perform. tysukuyomi isnt quite such close range. look at the distance between sasuke and itachi[

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]. Itachi saids he cant help but notice sasuke still doesnt have the same eyes as him.[

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]. Imo Itachi was still capable of seeing itachi eye socket through that distance which presumes to me his tysukuyomi range isnt as close you think.

Not too mentions itachis quick use of his crow clones.

Jiraya was spamming fire techniques around his yomi numa technique, yet nothing happened. So i don't think it would do a thing. And even if it does, if anything by hardening the mud in this condition it will immobilise Itachi if anything else since at the moment he would realise he is trapped in yomi numa, it would already be too late(his feet would already start sinking underground).

I also like the way you think alive Itachi is Edo Itachi. You keep saying Itachi would keep using amaterasu, Susanoo to counter each Jiraya's attacks without considering the heavy drawbacks it has on Itachi

Chakra control and portion. He doesnt have to use a large scale amaterasu. there are lower level versions of sussano..Amaterasu is hotter then a regular katon.. Are you forgetting the katon wasnt even directly on the source of yomi numa? Hardening the mud and then a sussano arm can brake the mud freeing itachi.. Or better you didnt counter my earlier post regarding sussano being able to potentially stand upon the swamp and gripping itachi out the mud.

 

[Prince Charles]

Speed argument:

My opponent uses Itachi's speed as an argument very often. It's for that reason i wanted to add this post to explain why the speed won't be important at all in this fight. I will just give some comparable examples.

He doesn't seem to understand that in speed there is body movement and shunshin. Shunshin can help to cover high distances really fast, a move than any high level ninja can use

Ninjas like Sasuke, Bee or Kakashi for example have as much speed feat if not greater than Itachi

Sasuke here totally blitzed Naruto with Shunshin:

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And here as well:

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Bee for example covered an insane distance in an instant here. He totally blitzed all taka with Shunshin when he was paralysed an instant earlier and Juugo was about to beat him. An instant earlier he was near mountains. He blitzed them so bad that they needed karin(a sensor) to localise him:

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An immobile nagato was able to get behind bee also.

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Excuses apart, Kakashi was keeping up with his speed just fine:

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Excuses apart, Itachi didn't even notice the chidori-shuriken and thus wasn't able to dodge it completely in time:

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Itachi was cut in half without reaction:

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In these examples i obviously exaggerated but it's to show my opponent how speed can be irrelevant in battle since all depends on the moment every action is used, the attention of the opponent, the distance and range between said opponents and so on, all details my dear Prince Charles totally doesn't take into consideration

Excuses apart, Itachi didn't even notice the chidori-shuriken and thus wasn't able to dodge it completely in time

smh bogard yea because his vision was obviously 100% at that time right?:|

Itachi was cut in half without reaction

smh it seems you purposely skipped the page before that where itachi is obvisouly activating izanami?

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Excuses apart, Kakashi was keeping up with his speed just fine

yeah because that wasnt a 30% clone right?

An immobile nagato was able to get behind bee also.

um no that was actually thanks to the invisible reptile summon which you clearly see nagato standing on. few pages later you actually see the shade of the reptile summon near nagato, the reptile summon helped nagato get close to bee[

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smh.. speed is an important factor in this fight, you keep saying jiraiya is a long range fighter, then you say this Shunshin can help to cover high distances really fast, a move than any high level ninja can use


wtf is stopping itachi from covering a large distance with shunshin just as you said to get close to jiraiya and do a amaterasu or tysukuyomi? :|

 

[Strict]

Bogard. You just said Jiraiya would be skilled enough to break Itachi's Genjutsu since he proved he can release the Genjutsu Itachi cast upon another; like Oonoki released the Genjutsu A was paralyzed with by Madara as it's common that disturbing ones chakra flow to free him from a Genjutsu is someting everyone can do as he himself isn't affected by the illusion.

 

[SASUKE IS ABOVE KAGE LEVE]

Itachi low difficulty

 

[Bogard]

It doesnt matter if the distance wasnt quite as large, your trying to downplay the shunshin feat but i wont fall your pathetic attempt. Fact of the matter is it was still an considerable radius and length between them.

Or you're the one trying to overlook what really happened? Funny cuz you said yourself below that the distance wasn't great, yet you're trying to make it as impressive as it never was

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<---- the aime actually goes in greater detail of the fight. The manga shows the distance of kurenai getting kicked way too small while actually in motion picture the distance seems much more greater. Also in the anime you notice kurenai go back a few more inches due to the force kick, in the manga she gets kicked and stays in the same spot. While i do admit the distance isnt such a large portion its still an impressive feat never the less.

So what are you trying to do then? Only keep giving unimpressive feats to Itachi just because it's Itachi and you want to come up with something?

Btw using anime as a reference in a debate means nothing since i can easily bring you plenty of differences the anime already made with the manga, one of the most notable being giving Bringer of Darkness to Tobirama when it's infact Hashirama's technique in the manga

what? Her putting up her hands against itachis kick isnt a feat, if she actually managed to escape the situation then yes we would have something to talk about but on the other hand your simply over exaggerating kurenais pathetic attempt to reduce the damage from itachis kick when it was futile.

You don't get it, do you? An instant earlier,

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just infront of Itachi. So before Itachi who was just infront of her actually managed to land the hit, she didn't only break the illusion, but freed herself AND managed to put her arms infront of her to block the kick. What is so hard to understand concerning that feat?

What type of blasphemy is this? Kisame was merely trying to imply asuma should pay attention to whats infront of him which was his enemy himself ( kisame ) if asuma didnt keep his eyes on the current situation involving kisame.... i mean honestly what do you think kisame meant when he said that to asuma?

In case you missed, it was just as a comparison moment to what happened to Kurenai. Herself wasn't paying attention at that moment but not for the same reason as Asuma. The reason behind this is because of the recovery time during/after Itachi's kick. During that recovery time we even see Asuma and Kisame discussing about Asuma not paying attention as a parallell. It's all what i was referring to here

You keep bring up jiraiyas advantage in close range combat when in reality itachi has shown more honorable feats and traits in the art of taijutsu.. do you want me to pull up more scans of itachis reaction time and evasive skills?

Yes he would have advantage in close range contrary to what you think but not because of taijutsu, but because of his overwhelming ninjutsu. At this distance it gives less space to Itachi to evade in time despite his impressive feat. If they were to fight in a taijutsu battle, of course Itachi would have the advantage, but i'm saying Jiraya would dominate him because of his ninjutsu, especially thanks to his hair style no jutsu that can be transformed and modified at will

You of gamabunta taijutsu being inescapable due to the speed of his taijutsu but yet pain was capable of evading gamabunta plus other boss toads![

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By this logic i can also say the same concerning Kurenai who was capable to counter Itachi despite being a second earlier still immobilised. This brings nowhere. Just because Pain dodged one punch doesn't mean he could fight on equal terms with Gamabunta. He would have demolised Pain if the guy

smh it doesnt matter if they werent going all out serious, itachi still showed the capability of keeping up with kcm naruto along with Bee.

There was no along. Itachi was fighting Naruto and when Bee came he fled away, that's what happened. And no, Itachi was going all out whether he wanted it or not since

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who was trying to capture Naruto and Bee no matter what

This is invalid since this happened way after their confrontation where naruto showed no signs of tiredness or fatigue! But nice job trying to down play Itachi once again.

What?? Read the manga again dude. Seperating his chakra in more than 22 clones happened after the skirmich with Raikage and Tsunade in

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, so before his meeting with Itachi and Nagato that happened in

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So before keeping trying to say i want to downplay Itachi in every part of your post where you can't reply correctly, at least read the manga dude

I wont bother replying to this when both sides werent going full out.

Naruto wasn't, but Itachi was since he was controlled by Kabuto. Read above

It actually is when that person is in KCM mode... erm.. how old are the databooks? Nice job referring to old Db stats to help make your post seem more valid. Base naruto has already shown growth in his taijutsu when he fought against those cloud ninja.[

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No doubt Naruto improved his taijutsu, but still probably not that much. It was just to show you that the feat wasn't as impressive as you make it seems

......... Yeah because KCM mode doesnt improve naruto overall right?:|. I also applaud on ignoring the moments in the fight where itachi is able to keep up with Bee when Bee tries to pull a sneak one on him.

Do you see really a difference between KCM Naruto's taijutsu and his normal taijutsu? No, the only thing KCM improve is his shunshin and power(with chakra arms). He even stated

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So much fail Itachi reacted in time to muki tensei[

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] he could had easily evaded it but chose to protect sasuke.[

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And once again, he reacted to nothing since he saw nothing at all. He made that move for nothing since the attack wasn't even going in Sasuke's direction. It was a fail in terms of insight by Itachi's side. Sasuke probably even noticed it, reason why he didn't bother protect himself

Idk why you keep overrating jiraiyas ninjutsu when itachi clearly has shown the capability to react to them. Activating a rib cage sussanoo is more than enough to guard him self from jutsu like ranji shigami..

Oh really? All the time Itachi becomes overwhelmed by ninjutsu, i see him protecting himself

His reflexes in sussano is slow? link me.

It's said by Kabuto

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He countered him yet still fell victim to body explosion clone so whats your point? Look above i already showed you how pain was capable of evading gamabunta and 2 other boss toads.

He fell for nothing at all. It's Kurenai the one who fell for it and he was forced to jump in the explosion to save her

Lmfao what? that was clearly a rib cage sussano with an opening in the front.. it only covers surrounding sides. We cant expect the same outcome with a v2 sussano where its more fully armored. Not really since ninjas can walk on water even if the suiton starts to get above there feet underneath the bottom of sussano. You also forget with v2 sussano the arms can help repel the suiton with the use of the hands acting as a shield.

So? Because ninja walks on water that means they keep chakra under their feet everytime they fight? Obviously not. Sasuke is the perfect example of this since he got owned by the technique without being able to do something at all

So a base jiraiya will be able to make the necessary hand seals for those jutsu in time for amaterusu? Doubt it.

Because between A who takes his time to up his chakra til his pick, Shee and Darui discussing without stress, Jiraya won't have time to make handseals? Yeah right

Neither i do? but seems foolish that he will already have a fire scroll prepared..

And why so? Jiraya has a toad barrier. He has all the times he needs there to prepare all what he wants

Im already aware of the fact that just because outlasted sasuke doesnt mean he has more chakra that wasnt really the point of my post.

And what was the point then?

Yes it does, the disease obviously puts limitations on his body. You clearly see itachi grab his heart in pain and agonizing and cough up blood due to his disease in this panel[

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] in the next panel we see his sussano reverting back to its lower version.[

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] hint hint you do the math. Or maybe he didnt want to waste his MS techs on a 30% clone? when itachi pulled up sussano i bet my left nut his chakra reserves were below 30% or near there.

yeah because in part 1 he also didnt fight kakashi and kurenai and place a woman under genjutu fight?

not too mention in the scan he saids the jutsu is limited he does specifically say which ones. Your trying to back up your argument due to the fact that he didnt use any MS techs when fact of the matter is he could had simply felt no need to use MS techs.

I won't reply to this part of your post. I think i gave enough arguments to explain the reason why i believe Itachi couldn't spam MS techniques. Seems that you keep ignoring the drawbacks of MS techniques in your arguments though for some reason. I will just ask you the reason why you keep doing so. Why are you trying to go against the manga? Can you at least show me that unexisting Itachi of yours in this manga? Because the Itachi i'm describing here is the one showed in the manga

Tysukuyomi is a visual eye contact genjutsu as long as their eye contact the jutsu will perform. tysukuyomi isnt quite such close range. look at the distance between sasuke and itachi[

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]. Itachi saids he cant help but notice sasuke still doesnt have the same eyes as him.[

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]. Imo Itachi was still capable of seeing itachi eye socket through that distance which presumes to me his tysukuyomi range isnt as close you think.

You do realise that Sasuke's chidori is 5meters right? So Itachi was in close range at that moment. I don't know what you think close range is though

Not too mentions itachis quick use of his crow clones.

That only happen when Itachi is on an offensive situation where he gets time to prepare them, not in a defensive situation

Chakra control and portion. He doesnt have to use a large scale amaterasu. there are lower level versions of sussano..Amaterasu is hotter then a regular katon.. Are you forgetting the katon wasnt even directly on the source of yomi numa? Hardening the mud and then a sussano arm can brake the mud freeing itachi.. Or better you didnt counter my earlier post regarding sussano being able to potentially stand upon the swamp and gripping itachi out the mud.

Small or large scale of Amaterasu, it's still amaterasu, a technique that consumes a lot of chakra. Like Itachi said himself it's a technique that shouldn't be use

THIS WILL PROBABLY BE MY LAST POST TODAY

 

[Prince Charles]

ill post my counter later.

 

[Icelerate]

ill post my counter later.

Where is the counter you speak of?

 

[Lariatoo]

Where is the counter you speak of?

Not cool Ice. :'(
For a moment I tought PC had really come back.