Danzo as we all know had the ability to defeat sasuke however luck wasn't on his size. This now is a different story. Hes up against hiruzen and i will explain how he defeats him. According to the magan. Hiruzen hasn't got many jutsu and in saying that he hasn't got much jutsu that can counter any of danzos techs. Hiruzen has Jutsu that are C rank and none to current knowledge that are powerful enough to destroy some of danzos techs.
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Not how it didn't take much effort to counter his flame bullet? even though its katon danzo can use moves like Vacuum wave or vacuum sphere. If these jutsu are however too weak to counter this danzo has demonstrated he is fast enough to evade fast and speedy attacks.
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So if he is fast enough to evade susano'o attacks then im pretty sure he can evade something as inferior as flame bullet.
Worst case scenario If Hiruzen decides to summon Enma the monkey to aid him, Danzo can just summon Baku to increase his Fuuton strength and radius and as we all know it was strong enough to pierce complete susano'o and hiruzen has nothing within his arsnal that can counter this caliber of fuuton. Not even with his Katon style. When i look at it as a whole, hirusen hasn't got much jutsu to protect himself against danzo. His mud wall isnt proteecting him from moves like vaccum slash and enhanced fuuton.
I know Hiruzen was able to keep up with orochimaru but this is a whole different kettle of fish. Lets say hiruzen manages to kill or harm danzo fatally, he has izanagi and can sneak attack hiruzen from wherever he may be after he is hit.
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As we can see here, even with the heavy metal brace, danzos handseals are very fast so we can deduce that his hand seals are even faster without it so casting jutsu at hiruzen at a fast pace isn't a problem. The problem is because of hiruzens old age his stamina has depleted and because of how huge baku is,taking up a large radius giving the hokage little room for menuvor, he stands no chance, even with enmas help.
Danzo is fast enough to at least touch hiruzens shoulder or anywhere on his body in order to place the curse mark that immobilizes the foe. He was malicious enough to land it on sasuke but it was only when it was convenient that it activated.
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Not even obito realized and he was watching the entire fight so who to say he cant do this to hiruzen? He is very capable of doing this to hiruzen especially with his speed feats. once hes in this seal danzo can do whatever he likes to hiruzen.
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He is able to evade jutsu such as the susano'o arrow prior to not knowing about it in the first place, This shows his ability to anticipate the foes move and act according to the situation at hand. Hiruzen hasn't got any moves as fast as this however he has the Enma pole (this is slow but powerful) which danzo can evade or block with mokuton. Any jutsu he has can be blocked or dodged effectively.
Danzos knowledge in general is great since he was able to be so cunning to hide his secrets for so long, having said that, like i said before, hes also good enough to analyses people battle styles.
God Of Shinobi, A.K.A. The Professor
You've read TailedSage's argument for Danzo. Hiruzen's turn.
Ninjutsu:
Note, that none of Danzo's fuuton are ranked, meaning we cannot accurately determine how they would fair against Hiruzen's B-rank Katon: Karyū Endan. Now, as we know, the Manga has shown him with only 1 Fire technique. But I believe that we can atleast attribute him to one more: Fire Release: Great Flame Technique.
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Members of the Sarutobi Clan (many of them) displayed the ability to perform this technique. And Hiruzen was known to have mastered over 1000 jutsu. I do believe we can attribute this to him. Also, Danzo is exclusively a Wind Release user. His affinity is gravely weaker against Fire as shown in his battle against Sasuke.
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As shown, even with Danzo's/Baku's greatest Wind attack, their Nature Transformation jutsu will be inferior to Hiruzen's Katon. Also, he was said to know all of the jutsu in the village. Now I will say, with reason, that he would have known atleast a good number of the Uchiha Clan's Katon techs, as they were in the village. Hiruzen could also use Earth to his advantage to either block or entrap Danzo to where Danzo would have to rely on his Sharingan, thus draining even more chakra from him. Also, Shadow Clone Jutsu would be even more of a disadvantage to Danzo. Where as he would have to face 1 Hiruzen, he could potentially face up to 3. These great numbers would easily overwhelm a sole Danzo. Also, Danzo's talent in Wood Style is crude and barely novice level. Hiruzen could easily break this with Enma (Staff Transformation). Plus the use of Mokuton zaps a huge amount of chakra from Danzo, so he would use it as a last resort.
Taijutsu:
Now, the Databook rates him as a 5 in this category. One of the reasons is his ability to fend off attack from both the 1st and 2nd Hokage (Edo's even). He is so quick, he can place explosive tags on you without you being the wiser, as both the Kage AND Orochimaru didn't even notice (All 3 being above the level of Danzo). There goes one Sharingan (Izanagi). Even when blinded, he can still fend off attacks with no problem. His Taijutsu is amplified with the summoning and transformation of Enma. Hiruzen can use Enma's staff transformation to fend off Danzo's Wind cutting techs, as nothing but Orochimaru's blade can harm it. Also, the summoning of Enma brings another great Taijutsu artist to the battle. Enma was able to dismantle both Kages quite easily with Taijutsu.
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Genjutsu:
Danzo, other than KA, hasn't shown a great talent in this area other than knowing when he is under it. The same could be said of Hiruzen, except his is rated as a 5 in this area. So this leads me to believe that any genjutsu (other than KA) Danzo launches would be useless. Plus, with Enma Staff in hand, Enma could disrupt Hiruzen's chakra if needed. Also, Danzo showed NO talent for Sharingan use. As my prime example, he didn't even try and use Shisui's sharingan to read attacks or counter genjutsu against Sasuke. This leads me to believe (other than killing fodder ninja) his talent in this isn't that great.
Speed:
Hiruzen was shown average speed, as was Danzo. The "speed" Danzo shown was only Izanagi, not his actual speed. There is no great advantage here on either side.
Izanagi:
This is Danzo's downfall. He normally walks around with a huge brace on. Now, he would have to take this off, which takes a great deal of time; something Hiruzen wouldn't allow. Hiruzen is vicious and tenacious with his attacks. I highly doubt with the multiple opponents Hiruzen can/will produce, that Danzo would even get the chance to take this piece off. Also, Izanagi uses a huge amount of chakra, which would eventually cause his Mokuton go out of control with him having no chakra. Finally, with 4 uses, that is 240 seconds MAX that this technique will be active. That time is shortened with each use. Plus, with Hiruzen being good at genjutsu, chances are the same thing will happen to Danzo as what Sasuke did to him: He will be placed under a genjutsu and fooled into thinking he had more eyes active.
Baku:
As I've shown in a previous section, one fire attack and Baku is done. Sorry, but wrong affinity for this enemy.
All-in-all, Danzo is a good ninja, but falls short in this battle, as he did in life, to Hiruzen. His nature style is too weak for Hiruzen's powerful Fire techs. Also, his summon is weaker to Fire as well, AND his Ace-in-the-hole, Izanagi, takes too long for him to prep against this ferocious God. Finally, the one tech that is his saving grace would be his Reverse Four Symbols Sealing Technique. And I hope he would be able to use it against the real Hiruzen
God Of Shinobi, A.K.A. The Professor
You've read TailedSage's argument for Danzo. Hiruzen's turn.
Ninjutsu:
Note, that none of Danzo's fuuton are ranked, meaning we cannot accurately determine how they would fair against Hiruzen's B-rank Katon: Karyū Endan. Now, as we know, the Manga has shown him with only 1 Fire technique. But I believe that we can atleast attribute him to one more: Fire Release: Great Flame Technique.
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Members of the Sarutobi Clan (many of them) displayed the ability to perform this technique. And Hiruzen was known to have mastered over 1000 jutsu. I do believe we can attribute this to him. Also, Danzo is exclusively a Wind Release user. His affinity is gravely weaker against Fire as shown in his battle against Sasuke.
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As shown, even with Danzo's/Baku's greatest Wind attack, their Nature Transformation jutsu will be inferior to Hiruzen's Katon. Also, he was said to know all of the jutsu in the village. Now I will say, with reason, that he would have known atleast a good number of the Uchiha Clan's Katon techs, as they were in the village. Hiruzen could also use Earth to his advantage to either block or entrap Danzo to where Danzo would have to rely on his Sharingan, thus draining even more chakra from him. Also, Shadow Clone Jutsu would be even more of a disadvantage to Danzo. Where as he would have to face 1 Hiruzen, he could potentially face up to 3. These great numbers would easily overwhelm a sole Danzo. Also, Danzo's talent in Wood Style is crude and barely novice level. Hiruzen could easily break this with Enma (Staff Transformation). Plus the use of Mokuton zaps a huge amount of chakra from Danzo, so he would use it as a last resort.
Taijutsu:
Now, the Databook rates him as a 5 in this category. One of the reasons is his ability to fend off attack from both the 1st and 2nd Hokage (Edo's even). He is so quick, he can place explosive tags on you without you being the wiser, as both the Kage AND Orochimaru didn't even notice (All 3 being above the level of Danzo). There goes one Sharingan (Izanagi). Even when blinded, he can still fend off attacks with no problem. His Taijutsu is amplified with the summoning and transformation of Enma. Hiruzen can use Enma's staff transformation to fend off Danzo's Wind cutting techs, as nothing but Orochimaru's blade can harm it. Also, the summoning of Enma brings another great Taijutsu artist to the battle. Enma was able to dismantle both Kages quite easily with Taijutsu.
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Genjutsu:
Danzo, other than KA, hasn't shown a great talent in this area other than knowing when he is under it. The same could be said of Hiruzen, except his is rated as a 5 in this area. So this leads me to believe that any genjutsu (other than KA) Danzo launches would be useless. Plus, with Enma Staff in hand, Enma could disrupt Hiruzen's chakra if needed. Also, Danzo showed NO talent for Sharingan use. As my prime example, he didn't even try and use Shisui's sharingan to read attacks or counter genjutsu against Sasuke. This leads me to believe (other than killing fodder ninja) his talent in this isn't that great.
Speed:
Hiruzen was shown average speed, as was Danzo. The "speed" Danzo shown was only Izanagi, not his actual speed. There is no great advantage here on either side.
Izanagi:
This is Danzo's downfall. He normally walks around with a huge brace on. Now, he would have to take this off, which takes a great deal of time; something Hiruzen wouldn't allow. Hiruzen is vicious and tenacious with his attacks. I highly doubt with the multiple opponents Hiruzen can/will produce, that Danzo would even get the chance to take this piece off. Also, Izanagi uses a huge amount of chakra, which would eventually cause his Mokuton go out of control with him having no chakra. Finally, with 4 uses, that is 240 seconds MAX that this technique will be active. That time is shortened with each use. Plus, with Hiruzen being good at genjutsu, chances are the same thing will happen to Danzo as what Sasuke did to him: He will be placed under a genjutsu and fooled into thinking he had more eyes active.
Baku:
As I've shown in a previous section, one fire attack and Baku is done. Sorry, but wrong affinity for this enemy.
All-in-all, Danzo is a good ninja, but falls short in this battle, as he did in life, to Hiruzen. His nature style is too weak for Hiruzen's powerful Fire techs. Also, his summon is weaker to Fire as well, AND his Ace-in-the-hole, Izanagi, takes too long for him to prep against this ferocious God. Finally, the one tech that is his saving grace would be his Reverse Four Symbols Sealing Technique. And I hope he would be able to use it against the real Hiruzen
None of danzos jutsu are ranked yet one of his jutsus can almost break a complete susano'o i would say that's at least A rank if not S rank. To compare this to ANY of hiruzens jutsu currently isn't really a comparison. We can put a rash rank on danzos jutsu if we measure the damage and radius of his attacks and of course from what we have seen he attacks are pretty deadly.
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Just have a look at this. If sasuke has to resort in putting up his sheild to actually block one of danzos attacks that means that he knew to some extent that susano'o would have taken sufficient amount of damage if it were to hit the actual susano'o. This being said, I don't see why sasuke didn't just cast a katon style to counter it. Or was it because he KNEW it would have little to zilch effect?
Moving on to Hiruzens katon. Your comparing hiruzens katon to sasukes one but we cannot compare the twos katon styles since saskues katon at this stage has proven to cause more damage than hiruzens. Its almost like saying kid sasukes fireball jutsu can barrage right through danzos wind style attacks. They are of two completely different ranks and of course naturally the most powerful jutsu is superior and overpowers the other. This would happen in this scenario. Just remember that the edo kages were controlled by orochimaru so they didn't necessarily have to counter with a jutsu PLUS it was imperfect edo tensei so at that time it was only 30% . Which means it only took 30 percent of suiton to counter it. We can do some simple calculations and say it would be fairly easy for danzos vacuum serial wave to bombard through his katon WITH EASE.
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Spreaking of Enma, i would say hes about as big as the complete susano'o or just a bit taller. Even if he was he doesnt size up to Baku and since this is the case baku has the advantage of size and strength since his fuuton style is deadly and can eithe rsuck in enma or spit out some serious fuuton to rip him apart.
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If Enma were somehow able to block bakus attack and stand his ground, this scan proves that he would have to stand still. This as a result leave both hiruzen and enma as sitting ducks and are unable to act. I dont see how hiruzen gets out of that alive. Of course he may do the same thing as sasuke done and used katon to his advantage but danzo would have already attacked him by this time, since hiruzen doesn have complete susano'o he has no gaurd to block him from the first attack.
I get where your coming from abou thim knowing over 1000 jutsu but we have only seen him do that jutsu and lets just keep in mind hes old and the strength of his attacks may have depleated over the years. bu that's just a simple assumption. The fact that hiruzen can do Shadow clone is not really negotiable since its not like narutos where he can do Multi-shadow clone jutsu. Plus the durability of a SHADOW CLONE isnt that strong as shown by narutos shadow clones which is more reliable and powerful. So shadow clone isn't really a problem. Danzo has taken on many opponents at once without to much hassle with his wind style. I know hiruzens kage level but at this age his shadow clones are probably less effective and if they take enough damage they will dissapear.
The databook isnt really a reliable sorce since the cap is 5 anyway. As i said earlier they were only around about 30% so fighting them off WITH Enmas help isnt a big surprise but ill admit is impressive to an extent. They were being controlled as well so who's to say they would of fought like how they fought in that saga.
Your forgetting Izanagi. If he were to take critical damage from them both this would kick in. Danzo wouldnt be so foolish to take them both on and not summon baku.
The scan i previously shown of danzos speed wasnt izanagi, that was indeed his raw speed and this in itself proves that danzo is fast enough to evade moves of Hiruzen.
Danzo was fighting a much more powerful ninja and katon user and made him exert himself to the brink of death. This means he could give hiruzen a run for his money and defeat him with the skills and techs he has shown. none of danzos techs have been proven "weak" but all pretty powerful to go up against susano'o. Plus you still havent told me how he breaks out of the curse mark. IF he is caught in this there isnt any way he can escape. HE cant even summon enma for help.
None of danzos jutsu are ranked yet one of his jutsus can almost break a complete susano'o i would say that's at least A rank if not S rank. To compare this to ANY of hiruzens jutsu currently isn't really a comparison. We can put a rash rank on danzos jutsu if we measure the damage and radius of his attacks and of course from what we have seen he attacks are pretty deadly.
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Just have a look at this. If sasuke has to resort in putting up his sheild to actually block one of danzos attacks that means that he knew to some extent that susano'o would have taken sufficient amount of damage if it were to hit the actual susano'o. This being said, I don't see why sasuke didn't just cast a katon style to counter it. Or was it because he KNEW it would have little to zilch effect?
Moving on to Hiruzens katon. Your comparing hiruzens katon to sasukes one but we cannot compare the twos katon styles since saskues katon at this stage has proven to cause more damage than hiruzens. Its almost like saying kid sasukes fireball jutsu can barrage right through danzos wind style attacks. They are of two completely different ranks and of course naturally the most powerful jutsu is superior and overpowers the other. This would happen in this scenario. Just remember that the edo kages were controlled by orochimaru so they didn't necessarily have to counter with a jutsu PLUS it was imperfect edo tensei so at that time it was only 30% . Which means it only took 30 percent of suiton to counter it. We can do some simple calculations and say it would be fairly easy for danzos vacuum serial wave to bombard through his katon WITH EASE.
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Spreaking of Enma, i would say hes about as big as the complete susano'o or just a bit taller. Even if he was he doesnt size up to Baku and since this is the case baku has the advantage of size and strength since his fuuton style is deadly and can eithe rsuck in enma or spit out some serious fuuton to rip him apart.
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If Enma were somehow able to block bakus attack and stand his ground, this scan proves that he would have to stand still. This as a result leave both hiruzen and enma as sitting ducks and are unable to act. I dont see how hiruzen gets out of that alive. Of course he may do the same thing as sasuke done and used katon to his advantage but danzo would have already attacked him by this time, since hiruzen doesn have complete susano'o he has no gaurd to block him from the first attack.
I get where your coming from abou thim knowing over 1000 jutsu but we have only seen him do that jutsu and lets just keep in mind hes old and the strength of his attacks may have depleated over the years. bu that's just a simple assumption. The fact that hiruzen can do Shadow clone is not really negotiable since its not like narutos where he can do Multi-shadow clone jutsu. Plus the durability of a SHADOW CLONE isnt that strong as shown by narutos shadow clones which is more reliable and powerful. So shadow clone isn't really a problem. Danzo has taken on many opponents at once without to much hassle with his wind style. I know hiruzens kage level but at this age his shadow clones are probably less effective and if they take enough damage they will dissapear.
The databook isnt really a reliable sorce since the cap is 5 anyway. As i said earlier they were only around about 30% so fighting them off WITH Enmas help isnt a big surprise but ill admit is impressive to an extent. They were being controlled as well so who's to say they would of fought like how they fought in that saga.
Your forgetting Izanagi. If he were to take critical damage from them both this would kick in. Danzo wouldnt be so foolish to take them both on and not summon baku.
The scan i previously shown of danzos speed wasnt izanagi, that was indeed his raw speed and this in itself proves that danzo is fast enough to evade moves of Hiruzen.
Danzo was fighting a much more powerful ninja and katon user and made him exert himself to the brink of death. This means he could give hiruzen a run for his money and defeat him with the skills and techs he has shown. none of danzos techs have been proven "weak" but all pretty powerful to go up against susano'o. Plus you still havent told me how he breaks out of the curse mark. IF he is caught in this there isnt any way he can escape. HE cant even summon enma for help.
#1 You can say what it seems like the rank of Danzo's Fuuton, but at the end of the day, Fuuton is weaker than Katon. And you aren't speaking of Katon from a Chuunin. You are talking about Katon from a Kage. So, it is nonsensical to postulate that Hiruzen cannot perform the slightest of S-rank Katon. This is well within his arsenal due to him being reputed as the Professor. As for rank of attacks due to their effect on Susano'o, we can't determine that a tech's rank is A or S for breaking Susano'o's armor. Hell, most of the Raikage's attacks break through the Suanoo and they can't all be S ranked. It is basic Naruto jutsu knowledge, Katon > Fuuton, especially when a Kage is wielding the superior element.
#2 Sasuke prob blocked due to a jerk reaction. Danzo was instantly appearing behind him due to Izanagi, and he isn't stupid. It would make a great deal of sense to block instead of leave yourself open. I mean, I'm sure he learned something from his battle with A.
#3 Now you again attack Hiruzen's Katon ability. Keep in mind, the Katon Sasuke used to eliminate Baku was a C-rank jutsu. Simple fire tech. The ferocity and velocity at which Hiruzen fire his jutsu would be more than enough to overpower Danzo's wind techs. At the very least, it would just cancel it out. Now, the actual strength of Orochimaru's Edo's cannot truly be ascertained. Kabuto merely stated his were stronger, but this could be the exact opposite. Besides, even if it was 30% of each Kage's strength, I would think it would be clear by now: 30% of Hashirama or Tobirama is 100% stronger than most living ninja, to include Danzo. You also have to remember that the 2nd has the most powerful Suiton in the Narutoverse to date. So, it isn't insulting to think of him countering Hiruzen's Katon so easily.
#4 There would be no need for Enma to do battle with Baku. As I've stated, one Katon tech and Baku is finished. His summoning in this battle wouldn't last very long as it didn't against Sasuke. Then Danzo would be again, left with the Taijutsu prowess of both Enma and Hiruzen.
#5 Izanagi, Speed, and the Curse Mark. Now, as I've explained, his "speed feats" WERE just Izanagi being activated. If you look at the panel before the one you linked, you will notice he DID activate Izanagi at that point. There is nothing anywhere truly indicating ANY speed feats by Danzo. Izanagi: It takes a whopping amount of Chakra AND he could definitely be Genjutsu'd into thinking he has more eyes than he really has. AS I've stated, his Sharingan ability really isn't anything to speak of as Sasuke was able to full him with a normal sharingan genjutsu and NOT Tsukuyomi. He will be finding himself in more and more deadly corners having to use Izanagi. Plus, Hiruzen would only have to outlast him by 240 secs as Izanagi will end. Plus, you didn't answer how Danzo will have the time to take the brace off his arm. It takes quite a while and again, Hiruzen and Enma won't allow him the time to take it off. Finally, the Curse Mark. He only landed this on Sasuke because Sasuke was caught unawares by Danzo feigning being under genjutsu. Besides, the curse mark is only temporary as seen by Sasuke breaking free of it. You cannot say Susanoo was the reason due to Susanoo being an outside energy and not inner. If anything, Susanoo made him weaker. I think what a lot of people forget was, Sasuke was going blind at this point and was still able to defeat Danzo.
I dont have all that much time to make a huge conclusion so im just going to say it .. My vote goes to The Tailed Sage .. Dont get too down thundercles .. You were the huge underdog to begin with .. choosing Hiruzen, Anyways you speculated alot in your argument.. about him knowing 1000 jutsu .. if they have not shown that they can use a jutsu .. we cant allow it to be used in a debate :/ sometimes that irks me too .. i liked your point's on countering Baku, however i have too say .. even though you had the elemental advantage .. Tailed Sage utilized his elemental jutsu to a greater extent, I LOVED how you used gif's for your taijutsu points i always try to do that but can never find the right ones .. and you deff. won in the taijutsu category, All in All Tailed Sage Had the Better Arguments Utilizing his limited Izanagi well ,
My vote goes to Tailed Sage
P.S Thundercles it really does not take time at all for Danzo to remove his brace.. js
I dont have all that much time to make a huge conclusion so im just going to say it .. My vote goes to The Tailed Sage .. Dont get too down thundercles .. You were the huge underdog to begin with .. choosing Hiruzen, Anyways you speculated alot in your argument.. about him knowing 1000 jutsu .. if they have not shown that they can use a jutsu .. we cant allow it to be used in a debate :/ sometimes that irks me too .. i liked your point's on countering Baku, however i have too say .. even though you had the elemental advantage .. Tailed Sage utilized his elemental jutsu to a greater extent, I LOVED how you used gif's for your taijutsu points i always try to do that but can never find the right ones .. and you deff. won in the taijutsu category, All in All Tailed Sage Had the Better Arguments Utilizing his limited Izanagi well ,
My vote goes to Tailed Sage
P.S Thundercles it really does not take time at all for Danzo to remove his brace.. js
Thanks dude. I couldn't really talk about danzos tai since there han much on his tai skills so I admit he beat me there. Whoever wins thunder, I enjoyed it thanks a bunch man
I dont have all that much time to make a huge conclusion so im just going to say it .. My vote goes to The Tailed Sage .. Dont get too down thundercles .. You were the huge underdog to begin with .. choosing Hiruzen, Anyways you speculated alot in your argument.. about him knowing 1000 jutsu .. if they have not shown that they can use a jutsu .. we cant allow it to be used in a debate :/ sometimes that irks me too .. i liked your point's on countering Baku, however i have too say .. even though you had the elemental advantage .. Tailed Sage utilized his elemental jutsu to a greater extent, I LOVED how you used gif's for your taijutsu points i always try to do that but can never find the right ones .. and you deff. won in the taijutsu category, All in All Tailed Sage Had the Better Arguments Utilizing his limited Izanagi well ,
My vote goes to Tailed Sage
P.S Thundercles it really does not take time at all for Danzo to remove his brace.. js
Well, thanks for your opinion. It does take him quite some time, as you remember he had Torune and Fuu hold off Tobi so he could take it off without interference.
Thanks dude. I couldn't really talk about danzos tai since there han much on his tai skills so I admit he beat me there. Whoever wins thunder, I enjoyed it thanks a bunch man
Frankly I find your ruling to be odd. He didn't answer my second response and had no way of explaining how Danzo was getting that brace off, or how he was going to take both Hiruzen and Enma. Finally I fail to see how wind techs would overcome fire. Also his wind techs against the Susanno were amped by Baku's suction.
