I disagree with the bolded part because Hiruzen almost drawed a full healthy Orochifodder and Sasuke after Karin asked "is this the level of someone who defeated Orochifodder" said something like "only because he was even more fodderish during that fight"
though Sasuke still wins mid-high diff imho
Hiruzen fought Orochimaru, who didn't even bother to have his Edo's go even close to all out, nor did he himself go all out. He underestimated Hiruzen, granting Hiruzen an opening to attack, something that will not happen against a Sharingan user of Sasuke's caliber. Frankly, Hiruzen has nothing to take him out.
Hiruzen fought Orochimaru, who didn't even bother to have his Edo's go even close to all out, nor did he himself go all out. He underestimated Hiruzen, granting Hiruzen an opening to attack, something that will not happen against a Sharingan user of Sasuke's caliber. Frankly, Hiruzen has nothing to take him out.
manga disagrees
full healthy Orochifodder defeated old Hiruzen high diff
hebi Sasuke defeated a weakened Orochifodder mid diff and he would have lost if Oro was going for the kill
manga disagrees
full healthy Orochifodder defeated old Hiruzen high diff
hebi Sasuke defeated a weakened Orochifodder mid diff and he would have lost if Oro was going for the kill
manga disagrees
full healthy Orochifodder defeated old Hiruzen high diff
hebi Sasuke defeated a weakened Orochifodder mid diff and he would have lost if Oro was going for the kill
If you think that Oro went all out in that battle, you're delusional. Where was Manda? The Yamata no Jutsu? The Mandara no Jin? The Daitoppa? You know what Orochimaru used? A sword. That's all. I shouldn't have to explain the fact that the Hokage didn't go all out to you.
If Orochimaru decided to go all out, Hiruzen would have stood no chance whatsoever. Instead, Orochimaru decided to underestimate him and play around with him, giving Hiruzen a chance to use the Shiki Fūjin.
Im going with Hiruzen on this one becuase Part one was soooo watered down.
I look at it like this:
1. Old Hiruzen TIED with Orochimaru in his prime.
2. Sasuke beat a Crippled orchimaru (thanks to hiruzen)
3. Suigetsu and sasuke stated that sauske only won becuase orochimaru was crippled.
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So if hiruzen was able to tied with prime orochimaru, and sauske was only able to beat him becuase he was weakend (thanks to hiruzen), then hiruzen should be able to contend and beat sasuke if they were to fight.
I think hiruzen would be able to beat sasuke. The problem with most people is thy only look at hiruzen from part 1 point of view, and how bad the fights were back then. Instead of looking at how strong others who hiruzen fought were when they made it to part 2.
Ex.
Hiruzen fought oro w/ arms. In part 2 oro w/o arms was able to fight 4 tails naruto and toy with it.
Danzo admitted to being inferior to hiruzen, yet was able to hold his own against MS sauske.
Hiruzen was no push over yet because people only look at him from a part 1 stand point he is often alway underrated. If you look at how his opponents fought in part 2, then it would show you that hiruzen (had he made it to part 2) would have also been a force to reckon with.
Think about it. Orochimaru could fight 4 tails naruto w/o arms, but couldnt beat hiruzen with both. This is a testiment to hiruzens true power.
Are you forgetting current Orochimaru? Who's pumped up on Hashirama's cells? Surely he's in his prime now, right?
I don't remember Orochimaru even actually fighting; he left it up to the watered-down versions of the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage. Even the weakened Orochimaru put forth more effort against the Sannin. I do remember Enma being restrained by one of Orochimaru's smaller snakes and Hiruzen admitting that he more likely than not was under Orochimaru (before he knew anything of Orochimaru's usage of Edo Tensei).
Danzo admitted to being inferior to hiruzen, yet was able to hold his own against MS sauske.
Of course, he never caught up to Hiruzen, but that was a reference to him never becoming Hokage. Surely you don't suppose that Danzo with 11 sharingan (including Shisui's MS) and Hashirama's cells is inferior to Hiruzen?
Are you forgetting current Orochimaru? Who's pumped up on Hashirama's cells? Surely he's in his prime now, right?
I don't remember Orochimaru even actually fighting; he left it up to the watered-down versions of the Shodai and Nidaime Hokage. Even the weakened Orochimaru put forth more effort against the Sannin. I do remember Enma being restrained by one of Orochimaru's smaller snakes and Hiruzen admitting that he more likely than not was under Orochimaru (before he knew anything of Orochimaru's usage of Edo Tensei).
Yes oro is in his prime now, but when he fought hiruzen he was also in his prime.
Orochimaru did fight hiruzen and hiruzen outclassed him in terms of taijutsu and Kenjutsu (Bukijutsu). The Hokage werent watered down because of orochimaru, they were more so watered down because it was part 1. And you are not giving credit to hiruzen for the fact that he was able to seal the first and second while under genjutsu, outclass orochimaru in terms of ninjustsu, taijutsu, and bukijutsi, and still severly cripple the sannin in his prime to where to took him 5 years to recover.
All in all orochimaru and hiruzen fought equally, and if anyone had the disadvantage it would be hiruzen because of his old age.
I didnt know what you meant by the bolded.
Of course, he never caught up to Hiruzen, but that was a reference to him never becoming Hokage. Surely you don't suppose that Danzo with 11 sharingan (including Shisui's MS) and Hashirama's cells is inferior to Hiruzen?
Based off your knowledge of hiruzen now, then I agree with you that it would not appear that he could defeat danzo. But you still have no idea what hiruzen is capable of. He just showed a new jutsu in this new chapter today, and he just got there. I think before you try claiming what he cant do, you should wait for us to see what he will do in the war. After the war, when he is unsummoned from edo, then you can make statements about what hiruzen is and is not capable of.
I highly doubt kishimoto revived hiruzen just to show us the same tired tricks that he did in part one.
But you still have no idea what hiruzen is capable of. After the war, when he is unsummoned from edo, then you can make statements about what hiruzen is and is not capable of.
At the time, he was at his peak, true. However, he didn't even come close to using all of his abilities, nor the abilities of his Edo's. He was playing around with Hiruzen, which resulted in his downfall.
Could you show me the manga page when jiraiya was locked in genjutsu but was still able to fight the caster?
The Kokuangyo differs from most other Genjutsu due to the simple fact that it only affects the victim's sight, but not the other senses. Hence why Hiruzen managed to use his other senses to reveal the location of his opponent. Against Sasuke, this would not be an option, as the Sharingan Genjutsu negates all of the victims senses.
I never stated what hiruzen could or couldnt do.
Im merely trying to defend hiruzen's case, and get you to understand that his full abilities have not been reveiled yet.
At the time, he was at his peak, true. However, he didn't even come close to using all of his abilities, nor the abilities of his Edo's. He was playing around with Hiruzen, which resulted in his downfall.
Almost every technique he has ever displayed was used in that fight, simply saying that he can beat Hebi Sasuke because he might show some stronger moves later, doesn't make too much sense. I could just as well say that Naruto beats Edo Madara, because he might get stronger later on.
Almost every technique he has ever displayed was used in that fight, simply saying that he can beat Hebi Sasuke because he might show some stronger moves later, doesn't make too much sense. I could just as well say that Naruto beats Edo Madara, because he might get stronger later on.
He knows every technique in konoha, and admitted that he didnt have the chakra reserves to use them. I dont see how you think he displayed every technique in that fight.
I made a comparison between how orochimaru and danzo were upgraded in part two and said that I believe because they were upgraded in such a way, that if hiruzen also made it to part 2 he would have seemed stronger as well. I didnt give any explaintion abilities wise other than that.
I only expressed my opinion that Hiruzen to myself would or could defeat sasuke.
Hebi Sasuke isnt kage level, yet even the old hiruzen was. I was simply expressing my opinion. I wasnt looking for a debate in there abilities.
From what we have seen sasuke has more abilities. From the hype given hiruzen is leagues ahead of sasuke. Hiruzen at his old age was said to still be stronger than onoki, 3rd raikage, 3rd kazekage, and 2nd mizukage.
Sasuke was about to die by the hands of onoki.
Im basically just making compairisons. These comparisons dictate my opinion. Its impossible for anyone to say who is stronger because NO ONE knows everything hiruzen can do.
The juxtapositions in this thread are a stuff of legendary arrested developments. I mean ... really? They make less sense than a guide to Dumbledore's pointy shoes.
