[Theory] Tobirama's Death?!

[masterdylan1997]

Really nice theory.

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

Really nice theory.

Thanks, dude! :yeah:

01) lol u wish he was killed by madara.

But tobirama lost to the Gold & Silver bros the first time.

02) Then they finished the job later.

Why quote the whole thread. . . ? hmm

01) Nope, I don't wish it. I only thought of it as a possible theory.

02) They didn't finish the job, the Kinkaku Force did it. Kinkaku and Ginkaku were Missing-Nin, at the time when Tobirama was killed, so they couldn't have been part of the Kinkaku Force, who were a unit of the Hidden Cloud village.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

its not hard to believe he would lose to 20 elite nin with lightin capabilities that would be a weak spot for him

how do you know they had raiton? and when did tobirama show doton?

.u also gotta think they where kakashi n guys level

no i dont. kakashi/gai level isnt elite jounin. its kage. it was more liek 20 asumas or 20 genmas

uthink dauri can beat second since he beat gold silver bros

probably because he didnt do any such thing. it took amber pot, 2 alliance divisiions and team 10 to stop kinkaku

 

[sanninuto]

well, not bad

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

well, not bad

Well, thanks! :yeah:

 

[EDOkage]

could also be why tobirama says this time ill kill you madara back when theyre heading to the battle field??

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

could also be why tobirama says this time ill kill you madara back when theyre heading to the battle field??

Yeah, I've noticed!

That also develops the theory furthermore. :yeah:

 

[Prime Rib]

good theory, but wrong as he would already stated that he was alive when he was revived, as he was even surprised when he sense his chakra

 

[Maaggel]

I like the theory Great job..

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

good theory, but wrong as he would already stated that he was alive when he was revived, as he was even surprised when he sense his chakra

Well, I did posted this thread a few months ago. :yeah:

I like the theory Great job..

Thanks, dude!

 

[The7thHokage]

Good job on the theory, brah. Even though I read it late. But well done !

 

[Wabbit]

I had love to see his flashback..there are many mysteries around his edo tensai..madara just breaks out of it

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

Good job on the theory, brah. Even though I read it late. But well done !

Thanks, bro!

I had love to see his flashback..there are many mysteries around his edo tensai..madara just breaks out of it

Yeah, I would like that too, but I highly doubt that we will not see it. . . :'(

 

[Naruske Izuchiah]

But what if he loses? That's why he makes Hiruzen a Hokage, so the Uchihas wont use the chance for one of them to become a Hokage or for an uprising, cuz there won't be a Hokage to take care of things.

So, what do you guys think? hmm

I think its an interesting theory. I mean, it's possible since so little is known from flashbacks that its really easy to extrapolate all types of ideas and potential scenarios. To your good effort and credit, you singled out and showed the actual manga pages on Tobirama's final events before his death. Thats great! Rather than simply stating your theory, there was some sort of analytic process, with evidence, to support your idea.

Unfortunately, this is where I have to disagree with you. I felt those flashback panels really did served their purpose in the story; in other words I don't think that events were misleading at all. Second, on the analysis of Tobirama's silence as an indicator for hidden motives, I believe is off-mark. I can't say for certain, but I don't believe, we, as the manga reader/audience, knew much of anything regarding Tobirama's character by March timeframe; which I believe its when your theory was posted. To say anything about the former Hokage's character--aside from what we learned from that flashback alone--seems like jumping to conclusion, wouldn't you agree? While on that note: I'm not Japanese. The little that I know of its culture, aside from anime & mangas, the tiny amount studied from the PC language learning program; The Rosetta Stone (when studying a language, in alot of cases, one is indirectly studying its associated culture too), and the few Japanese people whom I've met in my life, gave me the sense that it's really typical in Japan to 'say more by saying less.' Often times in anime the "cool" characters delay slighty when responding to others, or simply are not the talkative type. Good examples in the Naruto series are: Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Shino (though he's a bit weird), Minato, and even Madara. The formerly stated is particularly noted in mangas by the "...." bubbles it often protrays for said (in)actions. These manga blank-bubbles, I would argue, are really part of a Japanese personality-culture in general, and so, becuase of how pervasive it is, can even be applied to even Tobirama...We simply didn't know enough of Tobirama's personality at that time to say otherwise. He could of just been the quiete type Hokage, like Minato.

The other counter-arguement I have is in the stated quote, notably the bold part. While it is true that we don't know how much, if at all, the becoming-Hokage system has changed within the Narutoverse history, we do have some indicators of how its run. Think back to the aftermath of Pain's defeat, where the 5th laid in a coma. The new/substitute Hokage was being decided by village elders and Fire Lords, and if you recall, Kakashi was almost chosen. Think further back, after the 3rd died. It was Jairaya who was next in line for Hokage, not Lady Tsunade. If there were a change to the system from a successor to an elected leader, Kishi would presumably explained by then, (have you not seen all them flashbacks, and flackbacks within flashbacks?).

So in the end, I would not believe that the 2nd chose his successor because of the likelyhood of fighting Madara, while keeping it quiete from the others. I personally believe that as Hokage, and former sensei to his students, the 2nd chose to rather to die for them. In short, I believe that if anything else the 2nd was acting selfless, one of the many qualities in being a great leader. Just look at Shikamaru's "chess" lesson about the "King" of the village shortly after he himself became a leader; Chuunin.

In case you skipped all that reading, here's the recap.

My thoughts on your theory: Nice, but flawed.
Reason 1: Jumped to Conclusions. "Overread" the intentions of the flashback.
A. Not enough info on the 2nd at the time of your post to justify your ideas about his motives & actions, one way or the other.
B. Silence. It's a Jap thing.
Reason 2: Tobirama simply did not choose his successor.
A. Hokages are elected by Elders and Fire Lords.
B. Sacrificed himself the group.

Reason 2 has another point but didn't think it was fair, and therefore did not include it in my counter-agruments, because it's justification was only learned of in more recent developments. If you're up to speed in the Manga, it's in the 1st Hokage's flashback about "the whole Truth" and Madara. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

The Art of Debate is something to be gained, and refined. <---I think about it.

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

I think its an interesting theory. I mean, it's possible since so little is known from flashbacks that its really easy to extrapolate all types of ideas and potential scenarios. To your good effort and credit, you singled out and showed the actual manga pages on Tobirama's final events before his death. Thats great! Rather than simply stating your theory, there was some sort of analytic process, with evidence, to support your idea.

Unfortunately, this is where I have to disagree with you. I felt those flashback panels really did served their purpose in the story; in other words I don't think that events were misleading at all. Second, on the analysis of Tobirama's silence as an indicator for hidden motives, I believe is off-mark. I can't say for certain, but I don't believe, we, as the manga reader/audience, knew much of anything regarding Tobirama's character by March timeframe; which I believe its when your theory was posted. To say anything about the former Hokage's character--aside from what we learned from that flashback alone--seems like jumping to conclusion, wouldn't you agree? While on that note: I'm not Japanese. The little that I know of its culture, aside from anime & mangas, the tiny amount studied from the PC language learning program; The Rosetta Stone (when studying a language, in alot of cases, one is indirectly studying its associated culture too), and the few Japanese people whom I've met in my life, gave me the sense that it's really typical in Japan to 'say more by saying less.' Often times in anime the "cool" characters delay slighty when responding to others, or simply are not the talkative type. Good examples in the Naruto series are: Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Shino (though he's a bit weird), Minato, and even Madara. The formerly stated is particularly noted in mangas by the "...." bubbles it often protrays for said (in)actions. These manga blank-bubbles, I would argue, are really part of a Japanese personality-culture in general, and so, becuase of how pervasive it is, can even be applied to even Tobirama...We simply didn't know enough of Tobirama's personality at that time to say otherwise. He could of just been the quiete type Hokage, like Minato.

The other counter-arguement I have is in the stated quote, notably the bold part. While it is true that we don't know how much, if at all, the becoming-Hokage system has changed within the Narutoverse history, we do have some indicators of how its run. Think back to the aftermath of Pain's defeat, where the 5th laid in a coma. The new/substitute Hokage was being decided by village elders and Fire Lords, and if you recall, Kakashi was almost chosen. Think further back, after the 3rd died. It was Jairaya who was next in line for Hokage, not Lady Tsunade. If there were a change to the system from a successor to an elected leader, Kishi would presumably explained by then, (have you not seen all them flashbacks, and flackbacks within flashbacks?).

So in the end, I would not believe that the 2nd chose his successor because of the likelyhood of fighting Madara, while keeping it quiete from the others. I personally believe that as Hokage, and former sensei to his students, the 2nd chose to rather to die for them. In short, I believe that if anything else the 2nd was acting selfless, one of the many qualities in being a great leader. Just look at Shikamaru's "chess" lesson about the "King" of the village shortly after he himself became a leader; Chuunin.

In case you skipped all that reading, here's the recap.

My thoughts on your theory: Nice, but flawed.
Reason 1: Jumped to Conclusions. "Overread" the intentions of the flashback.
A. Not enough info on the 2nd at the time of your post to justify your ideas about his motives & actions, one way or the other.
B. Silence. It's a Jap thing.
Reason 2: Tobirama simply did not choose his successor.
A. Hokages are elected by Elders and Fire Lords.
B. Sacrificed himself the group.

Reason 2 has another point but didn't think it was fair, and therefore did not include it in my counter-agruments, because it's justification was only learned of in more recent developments. If you're up to speed in the Manga, it's in the 1st Hokage's flashback about "the whole Truth" and Madara. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

The Art of Debate is something to be gained, and refined. <---I think about it.

Dude, you wrote more than I did in the thread. xd

I do agree with you. . . on most of the stuff, but in the end it's just a theory that I really, really, really dodn't expect to come to light. . . I just thought it was an interesting idea.

Reason 2: Tobirama simply did not choose his successor.

Umm. . . yeah, he kinda did. :yeah:

 

[Multiply]

Spoiler

I think its an interesting theory. I mean, it's possible since so little is known from flashbacks that its really easy to extrapolate all types of ideas and potential scenarios. To your good effort and credit, you singled out and showed the actual manga pages on Tobirama's final events before his death. Thats great! Rather than simply stating your theory, there was some sort of analytic process, with evidence, to support your idea.

Unfortunately, this is where I have to disagree with you. I felt those flashback panels really did served their purpose in the story; in other words I don't think that events were misleading at all. Second, on the analysis of Tobirama's silence as an indicator for hidden motives, I believe is off-mark. I can't say for certain, but I don't believe, we, as the manga reader/audience, knew much of anything regarding Tobirama's character by March timeframe; which I believe its when your theory was posted. To say anything about the former Hokage's character--aside from what we learned from that flashback alone--seems like jumping to conclusion, wouldn't you agree? While on that note: I'm not Japanese. The little that I know of its culture, aside from anime & mangas, the tiny amount studied from the PC language learning program; The Rosetta Stone (when studying a language, in alot of cases, one is indirectly studying its associated culture too), and the few Japanese people whom I've met in my life, gave me the sense that it's really typical in Japan to 'say more by saying less.' Often times in anime the "cool" characters delay slighty when responding to others, or simply are not the talkative type. Good examples in the Naruto series are: Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Shino (though he's a bit weird), Minato, and even Madara. The formerly stated is particularly noted in mangas by the "...." bubbles it often protrays for said (in)actions. These manga blank-bubbles, I would argue, are really part of a Japanese personality-culture in general, and so, becuase of how pervasive it is, can even be applied to even Tobirama...We simply didn't know enough of Tobirama's personality at that time to say otherwise. He could of just been the quiete type Hokage, like Minato.

The other counter-arguement I have is in the stated quote, notably the bold part. While it is true that we don't know how much, if at all, the becoming-Hokage system has changed within the Narutoverse history, we do have some indicators of how its run. Think back to the aftermath of Pain's defeat, where the 5th laid in a coma. The new/substitute Hokage was being decided by village elders and Fire Lords, and if you recall, Kakashi was almost chosen. Think further back, after the 3rd died. It was Jairaya who was next in line for Hokage, not Lady Tsunade. If there were a change to the system from a successor to an elected leader, Kishi would presumably explained by then, (have you not seen all them flashbacks, and flackbacks within flashbacks?).

So in the end, I would not believe that the 2nd chose his successor because of the likelyhood of fighting Madara, while keeping it quiete from the others. I personally believe that as Hokage, and former sensei to his students, the 2nd chose to rather to die for them. In short, I believe that if anything else the 2nd was acting selfless, one of the many qualities in being a great leader. Just look at Shikamaru's "chess" lesson about the "King" of the village shortly after he himself became a leader; Chuunin.

In case you skipped all that reading, here's the recap.

My thoughts on your theory: Nice, but flawed.
Reason 1: Jumped to Conclusions. "Overread" the intentions of the flashback.
A. Not enough info on the 2nd at the time of your post to justify your ideas about his motives & actions, one way or the other.
B. Silence. It's a Jap thing.
Reason 2: Tobirama simply did not choose his successor.
A. Hokages are elected by Elders and Fire Lords.
B. Sacrificed himself the group.

Reason 2 has another point but didn't think it was fair, and therefore did not include it in my counter-agruments, because it's justification was only learned of in more recent developments. If you're up to speed in the Manga, it's in the 1st Hokage's flashback about "the whole Truth" and Madara. I won't say anymore to avoid spoilers.

The Art of Debate is something to be gained, and refined. <---I think about it.

Just addressing the bold. Hokage can be chosen by the previous kage, just as Hiruzen chose Minato instead of Orochimaru. If the kage dies before anyone is chosen then the feudal lords make that choice, based on the fact that that's how Tsunade was instated as Hokage. Orochimaru clearly states his anger towards Konoha and Hiruzen branched from not being selected as Hokage(I don't feel like finding the scan).

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

Just addressing the bold. Hokage can be chosen by the previous kage, just as Hiruzen chose Minato instead of Orochimaru. If the kage dies before anyone is chosen then the feudal lords make that choice, based on the fact that that's how Tsunade was instated as Hokage. Orochimaru clearly states his anger towards Konoha and Hiruzen branched from not being selected as Hokage(I don't feel like finding the scan).

Yeah, plus, there was another way, that I think the dude didn't mention. The way the First Hokage was chosen - voting from the villagers.

 

[allteam7]

going up against gold and silver brothers plus 18 other elite nins alone ? makes sense that he lost even tho he was hokage the brothers had the sages weapons for example ... and if he could use edo -tensei why not reanimate some nins to even the numbers and fight back that way, perhaps he did not do that cuz it was Madara ?

 

[Multiply]

Yeah, plus, there was another way, that I think the dude didn't mention. The way the First Hokage was chosen - voting from the villagers.

Haha, I was going to say that, but I thought that it was implied. Didn't want to start some sort of Madara v Hashirama thread

 

[IKSOKRIPS]

going up against gold and silver brothers plus 18 other elite nins alone ? makes sense that he lost even tho he was hokage the brothers had the sages weapons for example ... and if he could use edo -tensei why not reanimate some nins to even the numbers and fight back that way, perhaps he did not do that cuz it was Madara ?

Where did you saw the Kin & Gin brothers in my theory. . . they are not there.

You may ask why. . . ?

That's because it was only stated the the Kinkaku Force was there.

How do I know that they were not with them?

The Kin & Gin brothers already tried to assassinate the Raikage, which means they were not part of the Hidden Cloud village any more. But the Kinkaku Force, as stated by Tobirama were bounty hunters from the Hidden Cloud.

There were only 20 master bounty hunters. . . no one else.