[Sandaime Raikage & Ōnoki] vs [Kirābī & Kisame]

[OnPoint]

Location: Sasuke vs Hachibi
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50m
Restrictions: Suirō Sameodori (Water Dome), Kohaku no Jōhei (Amber Purifying Pot)

Bee starts in base and Samehada is in the hands of his team mate. Ōnoki is free from any handicaps such as 'back pains'.

 

[pateuvasiliu]

I had to google Kirabi.

Anyhow, I'd say team 1 wins. It seems 3rd Raikage is above the 8 tails and onoki is above kisame.

 

[OnPoint]

I wouldn't say it's as simple as W or X being greater than Y or Z. The Sandaime was able to stalemate against a Hachibi relying on Frenzied assaults (since it wasn't being controlled by its jinchūriki), whilst Kisame has some counters to Ōnoki's techniques - for instance, his Daikōdan no Jutsu, which I don't think the Tsuchikage has come across. There's more to it than just basic match-ups.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

This could actually go either way, but I guess I'll defend Bee and Kisame.

Great shark bullet has already been said to absorb all Ninjutsu and in turn, power up his own attack. This could prove extremely useful when coming up against Onoki's Jinton. Sandaime, likewise, could have his lightning shroud absorbed via Samehada. Sandaime without his armour isn't nearly as fast as he could be, thus giving either Bee or Kisame to capitalize. If Onoki decides to go aerial, Bee could potentially snipe him down with an uncompressed TBB, in a similar fashion against Suigetsu. I'm certain Bee knows about the third being Ei's father, so I can only assume he knows about his Nukite. Then again, who doesn't know about their previous Kage, being from the same village and all. Bee has already been shown to have superb reflexes, being able to react to the fastest man who's ever lived, so I'm positive in his V2 shroud, he can out-speed and handily dodge his brothers predecessor. The problem at hand, lies in actually taking out the Sandaime. His body is troublesome, however, Hachibi has knowledge on Sandaime's Nukite being the only weapon which has been able to pierce him. Thus with this knowledge, Bee can either deflect his shot back at him, with his own swords or chakra arms. Or rather, have Kisame do so with his Samehada, for a perfectly timed counter-attack.

 

[OnPoint]

I agree with some of your main points Sasori, but there are still some ways in which the Kage can conquer their opponents.

Ōnoki's Chōkajūgan (Ultra-Added-Weight) technique will prove extremely useful. It would be enough to, say, slow down Bee's movements when in his various Hachibi's forms (and in particular, his full Gyūki mode); by doing so, the Tsuchikage would be able to buy enough time for his Jinton to be launched. It would become extremely difficult for the 8 tails to then hit an aerial target like Ōnoki with its bijūdama as it finds itself too heavy to swiftly move or rotate either its head and body (respectively). A direct hit would, of course, spell the end for Bee. The same can be said for Kisame. It's likely such a technique will land if Ōnoki resorts to Bunshin feints or other stealth like tactics. His battle experience allowed him to deceive Madara and increase the weight of 5 of his Susano'o wielding doppelgangers, after all.

As we saw with Ē, the Tsuchikage could increase the Sandaime Raikage's speed further by using his Keijūgan no Jutsu (Light-Weight Rock Technique). This would surely put the latter beyond Killer Bee with regards to rapidity, if he wasn't already. The re-directing of the Nukite would require superior danger sensing, granted to Naruto because of Sennin Mode. It remains to be seen whether or not Bee would be capable of reacting at the last moment, particularly if the Sandaime Raikage boasts greater speed and reflexes because of his Raiton no Yoroi. While Bee did react to Minato, Yondaime was hardly in a bloodlusted state whereby killing was the only thing on his mind. We saw against Obito that if he teleports to a mark with with serious intent, his foe won't have a chance to move.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Go easy on me Noddy, lmao, I'm new to this. Just for future reference though, why does "IC" mean?

That would indeed be a perfect counter for Onoki, to induce so much weight onto Bee, his movements become heavily restricted. Though, would Bee allow him to get so close? I believe it could be avoided. If Bee doesn't go straight for the uncompressed TBB, but instead tries to force some distance between him and the Tsuchikage, I believe Bijū Hachimaki is a subtle counter for this. (

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). Pardon I can't post the actual image, my laptop's a bit shit actually. Anyways, as you can see, this attack creates a whirlwind forceful enough to relocate trees and entirely decimate forests. I'm not saying this can finish Onoki, but rather, force some distance between himself, and the Gyuki Jin. If this succeeds, it should alter Onoki's aerial stance, and at the very least, put him off balance. If this does work out, and the distance is great enough, I believe he can dispatch of Onoki with a well timed TBB. If Bee does go straight for the TBB, in the similar fashion he did with Suigetsu, I'm afraid he'd be unable to dodge (

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). This, of course, depends if he's in the air.

Of course Minato lacked the killing intent, but he did make an attempt at hurting A, something which Bee was able to react to. Mind you, this is the first time Bee is witnessing Hiraishin, so for him to get his tentacle just in time, is something special (

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). Instantaneous movement to a Kunai just above A's shoulders, and reacting accordingly must be something to commend him for. Again though, as you said, Yondaime lacked the killing intent here.

Yeah, if Onoki were to boost Sandaime's speed further, he'd definitely be above Bee. However, if by any chance, Kisame managed to have Samehada suck Sandaime's lightning shroud, it'd surely decrease his given potential. While he'd still be fast, I highly doubt he'd get one over on Bee. How Kisame can do this is something we leave to our imaginations, but, if Bee takes out Onoki on my conditions, I'm sure the opportunity would present itself once they tag team on the third. Kisame can force the Sandaime to keep busy by producing a number of water clones, and if my memory serves me correct, there's a water source where Sasuke fought Bee? If so, he can make a number of water clones to feint the third, long enough for Kisame to get one with Samehada. To further trouble the Sandaime, maybe even summon his 1k sharks.

 

[OnPoint]

Go easy on me Noddy, lmao, I'm new to this. Just for future reference though, why does "IC" mean?

In character. Meaning the person wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary (for them). For example, Kakashi wouldn't, under normal circumstances, start a fight with Kamui.

That would indeed be a perfect counter for Onoki, to induce so much weight onto Bee, his movements become heavily restricted. Though, would Bee allow him to get so close? I believe it could be avoided. If Bee doesn't go straight for the uncompressed TBB, but instead tries to force some distance between him and the Tsuchikage, I believe Bijū Hachimaki is a subtle counter for this. (

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). Pardon I can't post the actual image, my laptop's a bit shit actually. Anyways, as you can see, this attack creates a whirlwind forceful enough to relocate trees and entirely decimate forests. I'm not saying this can finish Onoki, but rather, force some distance between himself, and the Gyuki Jin. If this succeeds, it should alter Onoki's aerial stance, and at the very least, put him off balance. If this does work out, and the distance is great enough, I believe he can dispatch of Onoki with a well timed TBB. If Bee does go straight for the TBB, in the similar fashion he did with Suigetsu, I'm afraid he'd be unable to dodge (

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). This, of course, depends if he's in the air.

Yeah I agree, Bijū Hachimaki should succeed in putting some distance between the two, although the issue of collateral damage arises; if he's not careful, Kisame will be caught in the Jutsu's AoE. I'm still not sure if the bijūdama will be fast enough to catch Ōnoki, given the speeds that both he and Deidara are able to fly at [

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]. Widening the gap between them may only serve to increase the amount of time Ōnoki has to react to the bomb. In fact, the Tsuchikage's flight technique is so broken that it seems it can be transferred to others via physical contact [

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]. This actually opens to door for the Sandaime Raikage taking to the sky, leaving Kisame the sole victim of Bee's Whirlwind Jutsu (Off topic, but Ōnoki is just a badboy. So much hax).

Of course Minato lacked the killing intent, but he did make an attempt at hurting A, something which Bee was able to react to. Mind you, this is the first time Bee is witnessing Hiraishin, so for him to get his tentacle just in time, is something special (

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). Instantaneous movement to a Kunai just above A's shoulders, and reacting accordingly must be something to commend him for. Again though, as you said, Yondaime lacked the killing intent here.

Yeah, Bee's reaction feats still put him above the majority of fighters. I just wonder whether or not he's capable of both avoiding and re-directing the Nukite in one fell swoop - it'd be difficult for him to do so if he's lacking the ability to sense danger. His chances of sustaining injury during the attempt are higher than those held by Naruto.

Yeah, if Onoki were to boost Sandaime's speed further, he'd definitely be above Bee. However, if by any chance, Kisame managed to have Samehada suck Sandaime's lightning shroud, it'd surely decrease his given potential. While he'd still be fast, I highly doubt he'd get one over on Bee. How Kisame can do this is something we leave to our imaginations, but, if Bee takes out Onoki on my conditions, I'm sure the opportunity would present itself once they tag team on the third. Kisame can force the Sandaime to keep busy by producing a number of water clones, and if my memory serves me correct, there's a water source where Sasuke fought Bee? If so, he can make a number of water clones to feint the third, long enough for Kisame to get one with Samehada. To further trouble the Sandaime, maybe even summon his 1k sharks.

Perhaps, but you wonder how many swipes of Samehada would be needed to completely drain the man who fought 10,000 shinobi for three days. Even if the Raiton no Yoroi is devoured, i'm pretty confident that the 3rd has enough in the tank to restore it - and then continue his assault. The Sandaime Raikage's Kuroi Kaminari should be able to completely incapacitate Kisame's doppelgangers and his sharks. He of course, however, lacks panels showing him actually using the Black Lightning. And you'd be right in suggesting that things would look bleak for the 3rd if ever a two against one situation came to pass.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

In character. Meaning the person wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary (for them). For example, Kakashi wouldn't, under normal circumstances, start a fight with Kamui.



Yeah I agree, Bijū Hachimaki should succeed in putting some distance between the two, although the issue of collateral damage arises; if he's not careful, Kisame will be caught in the Jutsu's AoE. I'm still not sure if the bijūdama will be fast enough to catch Ōnoki, given the speeds that both he and Deidara are able to fly at [

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]. Widening the gap between them may only serve to increase the amount of time Ōnoki has to react to the bomb. In fact, the Tsuchikage's flight technique is so broken that it seems it can be transferred to others via physical contact [

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]. This actually opens to door for the Sandaime Raikage taking to the sky, leaving Kisame the sole victim of Bee's Whirlwind Jutsu (Off topic, but Ōnoki is just a badboy. So much hax).



Yeah, Bee's reaction feats still put him above the majority of fighters. I just wonder whether or not he's capable of both avoiding and re-directing the Nukite in one fell swoop - it'd be difficult for him to do so if he's lacking the ability to sense danger. His chances of sustaining injury during the attempt are higher than those held by Naruto.



Perhaps, but you wonder how many swipes of Samehada would be needed to completely drain the man who fought 10,000 shinobi for three days. Even if the Raiton no Yoroi is devoured, i'm pretty confident that the 3rd has enough in the tank to restore it - and then continue his assault. The Sandaime Raikage's Kuroi Kaminari should be able to completely incapacitate Kisame's doppelgangers and his sharks. He of course, however, lacks panels showing him actually using the Black Lightning. And you'd be right in suggesting that things would look bleak for the 3rd if ever a two against one situation came to pass.

I see, thanks for that.

Yeah, his flight is extremely broken. But, maybe I wasn't clear enough, but when I suggested Bee use that technique, I meant the best moment for him to use it would be if Onoki tried to ever confront him up close. Kisame may get caught by it, but Naruto didn't seem to be affected all that much when Bee used this technique. Even so, Kisame is an extraordinary tank; it's going to have to take a hell of a lot more for that to put him down, or even damage him. Or perhaps, maybe even put Dochū Senkō to good use. This allows him to travel underground, so instead of using it offensively, he can hide while the whirlwind takes its course. So, if Onoki does decide to confront Bee up front, that would be the perfect time to display the jutsu. I honestly believe it is fast enough. Not only is the technique extremely quick in it's own right, but the blast radius which it surrounds afterwards is noticeable. The technique is extremely useful, but inducing it on the Sandaime would only really help for defensive purposes, as his fighting style revolves around close combat, more or less.

Like you, I'm honestly not too sure. If anything, I doubt it. Perhaps Bee and Kisame could discover other methods to permanently shut down the Sandaime. I do agree when you state his reflex is above most though. Personally, I believe Bee could evade the attack, but redirecting it onto the third is a much more difficult task at hand.

Sandaime has one of the biggest stamina capacities in the series, no doubt about it. But then again, Kisame is known as the Tailless Tailed Beast. I do believe the Sandaime would more or less last longer than him, but sustaining damage or fatigue along the way may be definite. Kisame has the ability to absorb one's chakra, and convert it to his own. If he can keep on replicating this feat onto the third, he may be successful. I doubt Sandaime would fall for this so many times, but when Kisame produces a now barrage of sharks, clones and completely changing the landscape in his favour, it isn't impossible.

 

[OnPoint]

Hmm, I don't know. I doubt Killer Bee would resort to Bijū Hachimaki when it'd be far easier for him to to engage Ōnoki with some sort melee attack, especially since Chōkajūgan isn't the type of technique you'd notice or anticipate prior to it being used (in the same sense as a Suiton technique, say). An IC Bee who only benefits from manga knowledge is more likely to try and physically strike Ōnoki methinks. In canon, the technique was simply used to flush Obito's Jinchūriki paths out of the forest - there'd be little reason to use it in the exposed planes of Kumogakure.

You should also remember that the Tsuchikage doesn't necessarily need to 'fly in' and make himself noticeable to use his Ultra-Added-Weight technique. Bunshin feints similar to that which he used against the Nidaime Mizukage would undoubtedly come in handy. And with regards to Kisame's ability to tank or evade the Whirlwind. I don't really think him being injured is the problem here; rather, him being blown away and leaving Killer Bee exposed once the technique cools down. He'd probably need to cling onto the Hachibi as Naruto did, although staying so close together may prove unwise when Jinton remains an option for their opponents. However, as you stated, Dochū Senkō would probably shield Kisame from the full force of the Jutsu. Though, it should be noted that Bijū Hachimaki stems from the Hachibi spinning its tails - tails which were, infact, canonically removed by the Sandaime Raikage during one of their skirmishes. If he manages to replicate that feat, the Whirlwind may no longer be an option.

Bee (or Kisame even) would just need to hope he isn't caught by the old man's Chidōkaku, which allows him raise the ground in the surrounding area. Consider if that is used in conjuction with the Sandaime Raikage's Ippon Nukite (and possibly flight as well). That might just be the combo which disrupts Bee's flow and leaves him susceptible to the Raikage's attack.

The Raikage isn't asinine. If Kisame were to strip him of his shroud, I sense that a different approach would be taken (one which isn't so strongly based around linear, grounded movements). Changing the battlefield may prove helpful in the beginning, though against two opponents with the potential to fly, it may not make much of a difference in the long run. If either of them are caught by the cube version of Dust Release, the fight is over. To be frank, I don't really know who'd win, which is why I made the thread. I can see the Kage losing if Kisame pulls off his Daikōdan just as Jinton's linear form is launched. If Chōkajūgan lands, i'd favour the Kage.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

I'll reply to this tomorrow man, it's 1am here, and I need some sleep. But, don't forget to return here tomorrow XD

 

[Waltz]

I don't see Kirābī & Kisame winning this.

If the Knowledge is Manga, Bee is already aware of Sandaime's weakness via the Hachibi and could share this with Kisame. Kisame would no doubt make the first move in this battle with a Suiton, Dai Bakusui Shōha, to gain a terrain advantage and better control over the battle field, which in such a case he can manage from any distance. Bee would no doubt start in Tailed beast Version 2 given the fact that it would be the best form to face opponents such as the Sandaime who happens to be extremely durable. As for team 2, Ōnoki isn't much of a melee fighter due to his age and physical inability and though he is in full health for this scenario, his fighting style seems to completely revolve around his Ninjutsu and flight ability. Sandaime's power is enough to crush any guard regardless even with his speed being inferior to that of Ay so strategically there's no real reason for Ōnoki to mount him; given that, I see Ōnoki taking aerial coverage to start with Jinton based attacks. The sole problem is, Neither Kisame or Bee are aware of Jinton. How can then prepare for something they have no knowledge of? and not only does it expand at very rapid rates but it can cover as much ground as

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. Jinton attacks at an atomic level, which strikes out the possibility of cellular regeneration via Samehada on Kisame's behalf and the even durability of Tailed beast Version 2 wouldn't be able to successfully tank an attack like that as it was bested by Rikiri [

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]. The fact that they have no defense against or knowledge of Jinton's Damage potential, speed and expansive abilities, they lose this fight.

Given the Case that Ōnoki Mounts Sandaime, I don't see Kisame and Bee having any defenses against such high speed or power as Bee's Tailed Beast Version 2 Lariat did critical damage to kisame, who only survived because of Samehada nearby [

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] . As for Bee, although the Hachibi once fought the Sandaime it did him no harm as he is even able to tank it's Bijuu Dama [

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]. Either of the two opponents who are directly hit by the Sandaime+Ōnoki combo are toast.

 

[OnPoint]

It may not be wholly possible to gain a terrain advantage via the likes of Dai Bakusui Shōha, since Ōnoki (and as a consequence of his abilities, the Sandaime Raikage too) can take to the sky. Bee starts in base as the scenario states, although it would take him very little time to enter his v2 Jinchūriki form.

The Tsuchikage's ability to add weight to either his opponents or himself is what makes him dangerous in CQC. He's not physically the strongest, but as we saw against the Nidaime Mizukage's clam, combining his Doton: Kengan with his Kajūgan (and by extension, Chōkajūgan) increases his striking power tenfold++. I agree that a lack of knowledge regarding Jinton will cause Killer Bee's team serious problems, though it might be within Kisame's make-up to counter high level Ninjutsu with high level Ninjutsu of his own - namely Daikōdan, which would spell the end for Ōnoki should his Dust Release be met head on by this particular technique.

 

[Professor Finesser]

Location: Sasuke vs Hachibi
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50m
Restrictions: Suirō Sameodori (Water Dome), Kohaku no Jōhei (Amber Purifying Pot)

Bee starts in base and Samehada is in the hands of his team mate. Ōnoki is free from any handicaps such as 'back pains'.

It's killer bee... This is 'murica boy :scorps:

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[OnPoint]

What's your point? The first word of the first full sentence says 'Bee'. Every single time he's been mentioned by me in this thread he's been referred to as 'Killer Bee' or 'Bee'. The title is the only exception.

And this aint 'murica, boy.

 

[SasoriOfTheRedSaand]

Hmm, Noddy. Would you say consecutive Bijuu dama's would damage Sandaime, in the slightest?

 

[OnPoint]

Yeah definitely. He's an absolute monster, but i'm not seeing any human tank multiple Bijūdamas with their body alone.

 

[RicardoA]

I'm leaning towards 3rd Raikage and Onoki.

 

[Waltz]

It may not be wholly possible to gain a terrain advantage via the likes of Dai Bakusui Shōha, since Ōnoki (and as a consequence of his abilities, the Sandaime Raikage too) can take to the sky. Bee starts in base as the scenario states, although it would take him very little time to enter his v2 Jinchūriki form.

The Tsuchikage's ability to add weight to either his opponents or himself is what makes him dangerous in CQC. He's not physically the strongest, but as we saw against the Nidaime Mizukage's clam, combining his Doton: Kengan with his Kajūgan (and by extension, Chōkajūgan) increases his striking power tenfold++. I agree that a lack of knowledge regarding Jinton will cause Killer Bee's team serious problems, though it might be within Kisame's make-up to counter high level Ninjutsu with high level Ninjutsu of his own - namely Daikōdan, which would spell the end for Ōnoki should his Dust Release be met head on by this particular technique.

In that case there is possibility for melee attacks. Samehada would no doubt absorb Sandaime's Raiton armour if it came into contact with it. The Doton: Kengan combo would be a problem no doubt. It's really questionable whether either kisame or Bee would survive the attack as throught it Ay was able to punch a hole through Susano'o. If in Tailed beast Version 2 it's still questionable whether or not Bee could tank something like that as, Naruto in his 6T form tanked his own Bijuu Dama. It depends on whether or not the number of tails increases it's durability. Good point on Daikōdan, as it would no doubt devour both Jinton and Ōnoki. I wonder however, if Samehada would absorb Jinton being that it functions similar to Gakiō; converting the Jutsu on impact to it's raw makeup of chakra then passing it on to storage, but then there is a surface area issue as Samehada does not produce a 360 Orb around the user [in the case of a cubic Jinton]. Though it seems an instant technique, the mere fact Madara was able to easily anticipate and absorb it with his palm may give kisame some hope of anticipating it, or Samehada itself (working with the premise it could absorb the attack).

 

[OnPoint]

Ah, the Samehada-Jinton debate. I personally just don't think a sentient being like Samehada would be able to gobble up something like Jinton (in the same way Daikōdan or Gakidō could). It's limited by how much it can absorb, as Kisame explained [

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]. The sword also has problems absorbing things which cause it discomfort, as it didn't like taking on Itachi's Katon: Gōkakyū [

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].

Jinton, being Kekkei Tōta, is completely alien to Samehada. Something which can re-arrange on the molecular level is bound to cause it problems, considering what the sword actually is. Unlike the other two chakra devouring methods, there's something physically there to be destroyed. This is for the linear form, of course.

 

[Edo Odin]

Like Noddy noted, Samehada showed signs of pain after absorbing a small part of Itachi's Gōkakyū. It's pretty far-fetched to say that it could absorb an attack compressed of three different elements at once, especially since that combination includes the element it was shown to have trouble absorbing.