The Databook Is Now Wrong About Susano'o

[BlinkST]

Oh whats this??

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Totsuka is also associated with susanoo, does that mean that all susanoos wield it too??

There's no real evidence that they can't if the user decides to equip them with it.

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Kishimoto has implied that they do share the same weapons.

 

[Draphsin]

First of all Madara was toying with the kages. He didnt even use perfect susano till he was forced to
Secondly if Hashirama has counters for amaterasu and tsukiyomi, he wouldnt use them on him.

1. So what if madara was toying with the kage? After he decided to get kurama it was shown that he used mokuton to finish them off because he was done toying around. He even says that his enjoyment was ruined. This is still no excuse for him to not test out an ama + mokuton combo. He's never done it before and he was eager to use hashi's mokuton, theres no reason for him to not want to ama his own mokuton.

2. No shinobi other than a uchiha can escape tsukuyomi, if hashi gets caught its over, and ama is just as devastating....Do you honestly think that madara would pass up any opportunity to use those techniques on hashi, even if they didnt have a 100% success rate?

Thats the same thing as saying madara held back, which he obviously didnt.

There's no real evidence that they can't if the user decides to equip them with it.

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Kishimoto has implied that they do share the same weapons.

lol......

Show me another susanoo with totsuka......Yasaka magatama is a standard jutsu that all susanoo users possess.

And i cant prove that sasuke's shield isnt yata, but you cant prove that it is, other than the shape (but all shields are round and delfect things, lol)... But anyways, this doesnt help your argument in any way because you still fail to show me madara's susanoo with yata mirror, or totsuka.

Manga already stated that totsuka is a weapon that itachi found. So your statement saying that they share the same weapons is false, because there's only one

 

[Apocalypse Ninja]

Man, there's a lot of different views on this, until I see Madara using Amaterasu, I can't really go with the databook.

 

[Waltz]

Even if it was a translation error, it still does'nt add up. Though i'll try to get the viz translations since they're the most accurate.

You gotta realize that Itachi can't be dumb enough to be a member of Akatsuki for 2 years and not realize its headed by the masked man tobi. When kisame joined, he also first met Tobi. Same should apply to Itachi as well.

Why not? Not only was he young but he would have never seen Tobi in akatsuki, only Pein. 'Tobi' wasn't apart of Akatsuki during that time as he only surfaced in Part 2 of the Series as Deidara's partner which would explain why Itachi had to search him out. Deidara Joined Akatsuki without seeing Tobi, and Tobi himself said that he first met itachi when he searched him out. It may be a timeline error but a connection can be made.

 

[RasenUchihaChaos]

this is a message for the Databook against its enemies Stand up, Be strong

Know right from wrong

Forever hence

Believe yourself

And when you feel the pressure

The strain is hard to measure

So with your sheer endeavor

Forever hence, believe yourself

 

[Professor Finesser]

It was the only Susanoo at the time so of course it's wrong

 

[Waltz]

1. So what if madara was toying with the kage? After he decided to get kurama it was shown that he used mokuton to finish them off because he was done toying around. He even says that his enjoyment was ruined. This is still no excuse for him to not test out an ama + mokuton combo. He's never done it before and he was eager to use hashi's mokuton, theres no reason for him to not want to ama his own mokuton.

2. No shinobi other than a uchiha can escape tsukuyomi, if hashi gets caught its over, and ama is just as devastating....Do you honestly think that madara would pass up any opportunity to use those techniques on hashi, even if they didnt have a 100% success rate?

Thats the same thing as saying madara held back, which he obviously didnt.

False.

He was trying the jutsu as the Mokuton implant was finally active, and the 5Kage's weren't on the battle field at that point:

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The actions of character's in this Manga does not revolve around "What you think they should have done" but rather, what Kishimoto decides to do with them.

@ purple: Conjecture...

@ underline: Why are you making things up?

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Your entire argument is revolved around things you "fantasize" and not actual Manga facts which is why your opinion on such matters are inconsequential.

 

[Draphsin]

False.

He was trying the jutsu as the Mokuton implant was finally active, and the 5Kage's weren't on the battle field at that point:

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The Manga does not revolve around your conjectures but rather, what Kishimoto decides them to do.

@ purple: Conjecture...

@ underline: Why are you making things up?

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Your entire argument is revolved around things you "fantasize" and not actual Manga facts.

What the f*ck? are you even reading what youre typing? I actually expected you to be more intelligent than this....U_U


Im not talking about when madara used mokuton, im talking about when madara killed the kage

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. Yet why was there no ama littered throughout the battlefield...If he was serious, then why not pull out his most powerful techniques?? He used PS, which is 10x more powerful than ama/tsukuyomi yet he still sees it fit to kill tsunade and gaara with mokuton.

You still fail to provide any reason as to why madara would not use ama/tsukuyomi

As for the conjecture, Itachi stated that tsukuyomi can only be broken by a

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. Why are you going to deny manga facts.....?

And finally with the underline, you prove me right with that exact scan... Jeeeze

Youre saying that madara DID NOT go all out against hashi?? seriously i hope youre misunderstanding what i was trying to say because if you deny this then im done :|

 

[HadouKage]

What the f*ck? are you even reading what youre typing? I actually expected you to be more intelligent than this....U_U


Im not talking about when madara used mokuton, im talking about when madara killed the kage

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. Yet why was there no ama littered throughout the battlefield...If he was serious, then why not pull out his most powerful techniques?? He used PS, which is 10x more powerful than ama/tsukuyomi yet he still sees it fit to kill tsunade and gaara with mokuton.

You still fail to provide any reason as to why madara would not use ama/tsukuyomi

As for the conjecture, Itachi stated that tsukuyomi can only be broken by a

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. Why are you going to deny manga facts.....?

And finally with the underline, you prove me right with that exact scan... Jeeeze

Youre saying that madara DID NOT go all out against hashi?? seriously i hope youre misunderstanding what i was trying to say because if you deny this then im done :|

Wow draphsin is owning this thread tho :|

 

[BlinkST]

Show me another susanoo with totsuka......Yasaka magatama is a standard jutsu that all susanoo users possess.

All of them are standard. They are spirit weapons.

And i cant prove that sasuke's shield isnt yata, but you cant prove that it is, other than the shape (but all shields are round and delfect things, lol)...

A distinct trait of the Yata Mirror is that it does not block. It deflects.

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Remind me which hand is holding the mirror again.

Manga already stated that totsuka is a weapon that itachi found.

The notion that Itachi "found" those weapons was discredited. The manga stated that those are his ocular powers.

瞳力…それにこれだけの術…　やっぱイタチはすっげー強え！
Zetsu1: The power of his eyes, this jutsu... Itachi really is awfully strong!

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Hence the databook states the weapons are Susanoo's power at the time of publication.

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[Waltz]

What the f*ck? are you even reading what youre typing? I actually expected you to be more intelligent than this....U_U


Im not talking about when madara used mokuton, im talking about when madara killed the kage

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. Yet why was there no ama littered throughout the battlefield...If he was serious, then why not pull out his most powerful techniques?? He used PS, which is 10x more powerful than ama/tsukuyomi yet he still sees it fit to kill tsunade and gaara with mokuton.

You still fail to provide any reason as to why madara would not use ama/tsukuyomi

As for the conjecture, Itachi stated that tsukuyomi can only be broken by a

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. Why are you going to deny manga facts.....?

And finally with the underline, you prove me right with that exact scan... Jeeeze

Youre saying that madara DID NOT go all out against hashi?? seriously i hope youre misunderstanding what i was trying to say because if you deny this then im done :|

It was never shown, stated or implied that Madara used Mokuton to fininsh of the Hokage's but only something you are yet again fantasizing to defend your moot point. Wow! Draphsin, I guess because Itachi didn't use Amaterasu and Susano'o during his fight against kakashi, Naruto, Sakura and chiyo must mean that he couldn't use it at the time. Your conjecture was that "Hashi would be finished if he's caught in Tsukuyomi" Do you have proof of this? Didn't kakashi (a ninja with much much less durability, stamina and chakra) survive an advanced form of the genjutsu? Madara went all out on hashirama, but was toying with the Gokage as he referred to their squabble as being nothing more than a 'game' something you were indirectly denying in earlier posts and you talk about 'intellectual expectations', trying to sound smart on an internet forum while your post(s) have discrepancy written all over it.

 

[Draphsin]

All of them are standard. They are spirit weapons.

Then please show me madara using totsuka and ama if they're spirit weapons...Oh wait, you cant

A distinct trait of the Yata Mirror is that it does not block. It deflects.

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Remind me which hand is holding the mirror again.

:sy:

Tell me what the difference between a deflection and a block is? All shields deflect, show me a shield that isnt deflecting something.....lol....

And regardless, I still dont see a sword of totsuka in sasuke's possession, am i missing something? Short answer:

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The notion that Itachi "found" those weapons was discredited. The manga stated that those are his ocular powers.

How about you back up your claims with proof before you go on making statements like this?


And still you have yet to prove to me with any indication whatsoever that madara possesses either totsuka or yata, so all of your statements are invalid.

Anything else?

 

[Penguin]

Draphsin is owning at the moment. Totally agree with everything he says atm.

 

[Draphsin]

It was never shown, stated or implied that Madara used Mokuton to fininsh of the Hokage's but only something you are yet again fantasizing to defend your moot point.

Oh yes it was, you are just looking past the giant tree thats keeping tsunade in two pieces right now (and the twig thats sticking out of gaara).

Oh really? My point is moot? and whats your point? that madara can use amaterasu? Your point is as moot as it gets :|

Wow! Draphsin, I guess because Itachi didn't use Amaterasu and Susano'o during his fight against kakashi, Naruto, Sakura and chiyo must mean that he couldn't use it at the time.

lol uhhhh....He was only using a portion of his chakra??? And ama would've killed them. Are you forgetting the most imprtant part about itachi? here let me help jog your memory:

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He was good

Please tell me how you think my logic applies to a weakened Itachi who didnt even intend to kill that squad? :sy:

Your conjecture was that "Hashi would be finished if he's caught in Tsukuyomi" Do you have proof of this? Didn't kakashi (a ninja with much much less durability, stamina and chakra) survive?

Holy sh*t, do you even realize how irrelevant this point is? I told you that tsukuyomi cant be broken by a non-uchiha yet you still deny this... And itachi didnt kill kakashi because of the obvious reason i stated above in the spoiler....

Madara went all out on hashirama, but was toying with the Gokage as he referred to their squabble as being nothing more than a 'game' something you were indirectly denying in earlier an earlier post and you talk about 'intellectual expectations', trying to sound smart on an internet forum while your post(s) have discrepancy written all over it.

So what if he was toying with the kage??? If you read my earlier posts then i wouldnt have to repeat myself

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Therefore he wasnt toying around anymore, he got bored and decided to finish them off and go collect kurama....Now with that being said give me one good reason as to why madara didnt amaterasu his mokuton. it certainly would've finished the job quicker (it definitely would've killed tsunade, please dont make me explain why).

Oh and to add, if madara was having so much fun toying around with the kage then why wouldnt he test out mokuton + ama? Why would he not find that fun?

Oh and im not trying to seem intelligent at all. I just expected you to read my posts more carefully (like an intelligent person would), but it seems that you still haven't

 

[BlinkST]

Then please show me madara using totsuka and ama if they're spirit weapons...

That's a breath-takingly asinine argumentation. Madara using Totsuka/Yata has no bearing on whether or not they are spirit weapons. The manga itself has already maintained that they are.

Tell me what the difference between a deflection and a block is?

Traditional shields withstand impact. The Yata mirror does not block by trying to withstand an attack. It redirects the attack. This is blocking:

Spoiler

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This is deflecting or redirecting:

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Consult an Oxford dictionary if you need further elaboration on the context.

How about you back up your claims with proof before you go on making claims like this?

通リデ…　イクラ探シテモ見ツカラナイハズダ…
実体ノ無イ霊剣ダッタトハ…
Zetsu2: No wonder he couldn't find it no matter what...
Who would've guessed it was actually an incorporeal sword?

[...]

瞳力…それにこれだけの術…　やっぱイタチはすっげー強え！
Zetsu1: The power of his eyes, this jutsu... Itachi really is awfully strong!

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Zetsu discredited the idea that anyone can find those items; they are jutsu. They do not exist.

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This should be common sense.

 

[Waltz]

@ Draphsin: No dear, All you stated about trees and twigs are propositions and not fact as they were fighting among a forest [

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] and the outcome could have been anything. There was no scan release of Madara's actions in the aftermath of that fight. Itachi having 30% of his Chakra available doesn't mean he couldn't use the said techniques, only another one of your fantasies not to mention that, that not only did that Itachi use Amaterasu [

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] but that Itachi was a clone and it's dispersal would not amount to the real Itachi death as it was dispersed eventually doing no harm to the user, that is how clones work as you seem to be illegible.

Pertaining to Tsukuyomi , my issue is the statement in red:

1. So what if madara was toying with the kage? After he decided to get kurama it was shown that he used mokuton to finish them off because he was done toying around. He even says that his enjoyment was ruined. This is still no excuse for him to not test out an ama + mokuton combo. He's never done it before and he was eager to use hashi's mokuton, theres no reason for him to not want to ama his own mokuton.

2. No shinobi other than a uchiha can escape tsukuyomi, if hashi gets caught its over, and ama is just as devastating....Do you honestly think that madara would pass up any opportunity to use those techniques on hashi, even if they didnt have a 100% success rate?

Thats the same thing as saying madara held back, which he obviously didnt.

You are assuming that Hashirama would be finished if he gets caught in Tsukuyomi, Conjecture...

Now with that being said give me one good reason as to why madara didnt amaterasu his mokuton

Perfect Susano'o, the Rinnegan and mokuton were already overwhelming for the Gokage what reason would there be to bring out such tech's? You seem to lack understanding, once more, the actions taking by character's in this Manga do not revolve around "What you think they should have done" but rather, what Kishimoto decides to do with them in order to advance his plot. Your posts quality is deteriorating and your Logic is poor as you base your thinking off of fallacies and what you think should have been done.

 

[Draphsin]

That's a breath-takingly asinine argumentation. Madara using Totsuka/Yata has no bearing on whether or not they are spirit weapons. The manga itself has already maintained that they are.

Whether they're spirit weapons or not is beside the point, fact of the matter is that if they were linked to susanoo then madara would have them, stop failing :sy:

Traditional shields withstand impact. The Yata mirror does not block by trying to withstand an attack. It redirects the attack. This is blocking:

Spoiler

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This is deflecting or redirecting:

Spoiler

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Consult an Oxford dictionary if you need further elaboration on the context.

LOL, That in no way proves that it was a deflection. How do you know that madara's susanoo wouldnt do the same thing as sasuke's if faced with fuuton?? and vice versa for sasuke's susanoo You cant prove this statement, so drop it.

And anyways, you still avoid the real question which is: Where are madara's totsuka and yata????

Zetsu discredited the idea that anyone can find those items;
they are jutsu. They do not exist.

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This should be common sense. [/font]

lol wow, well i can easily prove this wrong

RDS has no physical form, but more than one person can summon him, he's a spirit, and can be used as a weapon.

You have no idea how oro planned to find and obtain totsuka, but he had a plan. otherwise he wouldnt be looking. They obviously exist, just without a physical form. You still have not proven anything with that.

Oh and to humour you, lets say that totsuka and yata are a part of itachi's MS, how does that change tha fact that madara cant use them???

Your logic is pointless and tiring U_U

 

[AlphaScythian]

If are to accept that amaterasu and tsukuyomi are must for the susanoo, then we can also speculate that any MS used could have those 2 in addition to their particular MS power or at least could learn them.

Madara has susanoo, but he never showed amaterasu or tsukuyomi. Both of which would easily grant him upper hand vs hashirama.

Sasuke has susanoo, he has amaterasu, enton and then only 1 remote case of tsukuyomi would be genjutsu he used on bee. If u analyse itachi's tsukuyomi it has inverted colours pattern, which is tsukuyomi trademark.

We can speculate that obito has tsukuyomi, otherwise how will he ever complete moon eye plan? In all probability his 2nd eye would have amaterasu, but kakashi sux at MS compared to real uchihas, so cant hope to see it.

Shisui should have tsukuyomi since he has ultimate genjutsu, why not? Then amaterasu is another step to get susanoo.

So shit stays the same, all MS user can theoretically achieve susanoo.

 

[Draphsin]

@ Draphsin: No dear, All you stated about trees and twigs are propositions and not fact as they were fighting among a forest [

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] and the outcome could have been anything. There was no scan release of Madara's actions in the aftermath of that fight.

Yeah they were fighting amongst a forest..........but madara sees no point in using mokuton? No sense whatsoever....

And youre telling me that the massive tree trunk that fell on tsunade wasnt madara's doing? Did it just fall on her? Lol you think that tsunade was unaware of a tree falling on her from the sky?.....This makes even lese sense

Itachi having 30% of his Chakra available doesn't mean he couldn't use the said techniques, only another one of your fantasies not to mention that, that not only did Itachi use Amaterasu [

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]Itachi was a clone and it's dispersal would not amount to Itachi death as it was dispersed eventually

.

Stop using a GOOD Itachi as an example, look when and why he activates it. He does it because he has to and he does it to escape.

He had to because he was trapped, and he did it to escape because he didnt want to fight jiraiya..................

Please for the love of god stop using itachi in your examples, it proves nothing because he is NOT EVIL....

Pertaining to Tsukuyomi , my issue is the statement in red:

You are assuming that Hashirama would be finished if he gets caught in Tsukuyomi, Conjecture...

No its confirmed and yet you deny it for the third time in this thread. Hashi isnt a uchiha, therefore he cant escape tsukuyomi. Stop arguing this because im gonna keep telling you the same thing

Perfect Susano'o, the Rinnegan and mokuton were already overwhelming for the Gokage what reason would there be to bring out such tech's?

Stop answering my question with another question, answer mine first. Why would madara not test out an ama + mokuton combo?

You seem to lack understanding, once more, the actions taking by character's in this Manga do not revolve around "What you think they should have done" but rather, what Kishimoto decides to do with them in order to advance his plot.

Exactly, and right now kishi hasnt shown anything pertaining to madara having the ability to use ama, despite what you think he should have... So why are you going to contradict your own statement and say that he should have it when it hasnt even been implied? :sy:

Your posts quality is deteriorating and your Logic is poor as you base your thinking off of fallacies and what you think should have been done.

Actually its your logic thats been sub-par for this thread, you have yet to provide any link to madara having ama. Also, you have yet to show me where its implied that madara even has it.....Please stop with this annoying beating around the bush, you cant prove that he has it and you dont want to admit it.

 

[BlinkST]

Whether they're spirit weapons or not is beside the point, fact of the matter is that if they were linked to susanoo then madara would have them

瞳力…それにこれだけの術…　やっぱイタチはすっげー強え！
Zetsu1: The power of his eyes, this jutsu... Itachi really is awfully strong!

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Spoiler

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Hence the databook states the weapons are Susanoo's power at the time of publication.

Spoiler

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Asinine reasoning 101. They are linked to Susanoo, as Zetsu said. They are optional.

LOL, That in no way proves that it was a deflection.

A ball being divided up in the same way the snakes were divided sjows that it was a deflection. Consult your Oxford dictionary otherwise.

And anyways, you still avoid the real question which is: Where are madara's totsuka and yata????

On reserve like his other jutsu he doesn't bother to use.

RDS has no physical form, but more than one person can summon him, he's a spirit, and can be used as a weapon.

I have no idea what that's supposed to be.

You have no idea how oro planned to find and obtain totsuka, but he had a plan. otherwise he wouldnt be looking. They obviously exist, just without a physical form. You still have not proven anything with that.

Zetsu clarified that was wrong. He was never going to find them because they are the power of Itachi's eyes.

通リデ…　イクラ探シテモ見ツカラナイハズダ…
実体ノ無イ霊剣ダッタトハ…
Zetsu2: No wonder he couldn't find it no matter what...
Who would've guessed it was actually an incorporeal sword?

[...]

瞳力…それにこれだけの術…　やっぱイタチはすっげー強え！
Zetsu1: The power of his eyes, this jutsu... Itachi really is awfully strong!

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