Kakashi vs k11

[fastrthnwind]

Even so the speed power and penetration force necessary to even use chidori, is strong enough to rip through neji's kaiten. Even worse since kakashi is a seasoned user of chirori(20 years i think) and focused it to and even greater extent that is required(raikiri) he could rip through it. Whether it be via lightening transmission, lightening blade run through a kunai, or just (raikiri)

No, only the third raikage or possibly the 4th raikage have the necessary speed, power, and penetration force to actually penetrate deep enough into the dome where they could actually hit the user. Anyone else would have their arm repelled after sinking in a few inches from the super-fast expulsion and high-speed rotation of chakra.

As I said before, only a powerful drilling force, or a supermassive crushing force could actually get through a regular sized rotation to actually harm the user.

EX of a powerful drilling force: Large rasengan, Wolf fang over fang

EX of a supermassive crushing force: Large shinra tensei, Meteors, Earth Sandwich

 

[BenjerminGaye]

No, only the third raikage or possibly the 4th raikage have the necessary speed, power, and penetration force to actually penetrate deep enough into the dome where they could actually hit the user. Anyone else would have their arm repelled after sinking in a few inches from the super-fast expulsion and high-speed rotation of chakra.

As I said before, only a powerful drilling force, or a supermassive crushing force could actually get through a regular sized rotation to actually harm the user.

EX of a powerful drilling force: Large rasengan, Wolf fang over fang

EX of a supermassive crushing force: Large shinra tensei, Meteors, Earth Sandwich

Y would you believe that? Chidori has already been compared to the hell stab in the tactic they use and raikiri is much stronger than chidori. It becomes even sharper when run through a kunai. Rotation has only been shown to block wood, kunai, and shuriken. Kn0 naruto used his fist and both got blown back. Defensively its compared to garra's ultimate defense which canonically got ripped by chidori. Either way lightening transmission cuts clean through. Imagine a spinning ball getting cut by a chainsaw

 

[fastrthnwind]

Y would you believe that? Chidori has already been compared to the hell stab in the tactic they use and raikiri is much stronger than chidori. It becomes even sharper when run through a kunai. Rotation has only been shown to block wood, kunai, and shuriken. Kn0 naruto used his fist and both got blown back. Defensively its compared to garra's ultimate defense which canonically got ripped by chidori. Either way lightening transmission cuts clean through. Imagine a spinning ball getting cut by a chainsaw

Their penetration power is similar, but hellstab is said to be the most advanced form of it. Even if It was put into a kunai, it will only penetrate a few inches before the rotating chakra would deflect both the lighting chakra and the kunai itself.

Again, I reiterate that Neji was not able to complete the rotation because he was caught off guard when Naruto charged him, since he didn't think Naruto would engage him in CQC.

Rotation cant be compared to Gaaras sand or even Susanoo because it uses different mechanics to ward off attacks. Both gaaras sand and susanoo are wall type defenses (which means its just a thin layer of chakra/sand used to protect the user from attacks) and any wall type defense will be broken with enough force in one specific area. Rotation eliminates that with the high-speed rotation and constant emission of chakra that creates a very thick barrier of spinning chakra that spans 2-3 meters from the user to the edge of the dome.

The mechanics of the jutsu allows it to nullify the attack from the constant chakra emission and deflect the majority of the force used against it from the spinning of chakra effectively repelling the attack altogether.

Lighting transmission wont work either because the thick, spinning chakra will eventually force the lightning chakra aside, breaking the chain before it touches the user. A chainsaw will have a hard time cutting a spinning ball and will eventually fall away to the side while only shaving off a portion of the ball itself

 

[Professor Finesser]

Kakashi wins but half of konoha 11 are dead

 

[TheCCV]

In the Konoha Crater, Kakashi. Using his sharingan and shadow clone technique, he can easily match their numbers if they all try coming on him at once.
Ino-Shika-Chou formation won't work on him either, the moment Choji uses Super Expansion, he instantly becomes a tower of a target for kamui, so that's out of the picture.
Neji and Shikamaru are his only real opponents, arguably Shino and Kiba as well. But using basic knowledge, Kakashi>Kiba, Shino, Shikamaru and Neji. Not all at once, but using shadow clones, and even more so with the sharingan.

The only way I can see him losing is if Choji goes into Butterfly mode while staying small. I can't remember if he gets a speed boost, but he's pretty much a prototype Sage Mode without all the other perks.

However, in the forest, K11, mid difficulty. The most Kakashi will be able to do is launch out around 50 clones and spam his kamui, but he can't dodge every attack coming from Tenten. Then there's too many obstacles in the way for him to keep up with everybody at once, like I said, without shadow clones. Plus, Shikamaru can make them stall and come up with a plan. So yeah.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Their penetration power is similar, but hellstab is said to be the most advanced form of it. Even if It was put into a kunai, it will only penetrate a few inches before the rotating chakra would deflect both the lighting chakra and the kunai itself.

Again, I reiterate that Neji was not able to complete the rotation because he was caught off guard when Naruto charged him, since he didn't think Naruto would engage him in CQC.

Rotation cant be compared to Gaaras sand or even Susanoo because it uses different mechanics to ward off attacks. Both gaaras sand and susanoo are wall type defenses (which means its just a thin layer of chakra/sand used to protect the user from attacks) and any wall type defense will be broken with enough force in one specific area. Rotation eliminates that with the high-speed rotation and constant emission of chakra that creates a very thick barrier of spinning chakra that spans 2-3 meters from the user to the edge of the dome.

The mechanics of the jutsu allows it to nullify the attack from the constant chakra emission and deflect the majority of the force used against it from the spinning of chakra effectively repelling the attack altogether.

Lighting transmission wont work either because the thick, spinning chakra will eventually force the lightning chakra aside, breaking the chain before it touches the user. A chainsaw will have a hard time cutting a spinning ball and will eventually fall away to the side while only shaving off a portion of the ball itself

Lightening transmission will work because even though the chakra is spinning its not doing anything to break the chain. That's like saying a spinning ball will rip a string. The way lightening nature works is that it vibrates to increase destructive power counteracting the spinning chakra, and since kakashi is releasing a constant stream of chakra to keep the transmission active chances are it won't break but continue to slide through till it makes it to neji's body cut through it and pullout the other side.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

In the Konoha Crater, Kakashi. Using his sharingan and shadow clone technique, he can easily match their numbers if they all try coming on him at once.
Ino-Shika-Chou formation won't work on him either, the moment Choji uses Super Expansion, he instantly becomes a tower of a target for kamui, so that's out of the picture.
Neji and Shikamaru are his only real opponents, arguably Shino and Kiba as well. But using basic knowledge, Kakashi>Kiba, Shino, Shikamaru and Neji. Not all at once, but using shadow clones, and even more so with the sharingan.

The only way I can see him losing is if Choji goes into Butterfly mode while staying small. I can't remember if he gets a speed boost, but he's pretty much a prototype Sage Mode without all the other perks.

However, in the forest, K11, mid difficulty. The most Kakashi will be able to do is launch out around 50 clones and spam his kamui, but he can't dodge every attack coming from Tenten. Then there's too many obstacles in the way for him to keep up with everybody at once, like I said, without shadow clones. Plus, Shikamaru can make them stall and come up with a plan. So yeah.

Actually in a forest kakashi has a better chance. In the crater his multiple opponents will be able to see him at all times making his iconic style of bunshin feints useless. But in a forest the only people that can keep a good eye on him are neji and hinata and even then they wont be able to tell which one is the real kakashi. Kakashi never makes more than two clones for fighting so your scenario is actually out of character.

He could rush them with lightening transmission and cut through trees rocks and all that aren't smart/quick enough to dodge his attack. After that he can use the commotion form the falling trees to pick off his opponents one by one first neji, then hinata. Kamui sai, run raikiri through the executioner's blade and pick off ino,sakura, shino, kiba(if he doesn't use fang wolf fang to counter it), lee(that's gonna take some doing) choji(if he doesnt transform), etc.

 

[V h o]

I can't see kakashi winning. It's too stacked against him. Atleast give him Guy.
Kakashi's only hope would be kumai, but he can't use that many.

 

[fastrthnwind]

Lightening transmission will work because even though the chakra is spinning its not doing anything to break the chain. That's like saying a spinning ball will rip a string. The way lightening nature works is that it vibrates to increase destructive power counteracting the spinning chakra, and since kakashi is releasing a constant stream of chakra to keep the transmission active chances are it won't break but continue to slide through till it makes it to neji's body cut through it and pullout the other side.

The thing is, the rotating chakra is actually forcing lightning chakra aside, even when it hits because the chakra is rotating instead of being still. Because there is more chakra being ejected from the rotation to counter the thin amount of lightning chakra in the lightning transmission and the rotating chakra is still forcing the lightning chakra to one side, the chain will inevitably be broken before it reaches the user.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

The thing is, the rotating chakra is actually forcing lightning chakra aside, even when it hits because the chakra is rotating instead of being still. Because there is more chakra being ejected from the rotation to counter the thin amount of lightning chakra in the lightning transmission and the rotating chakra is still forcing the lightning chakra to one side, the chain will inevitably be broken before it reaches the user.

The lightening based chakra will vibrate through, Elemental chakra trumps regular chakra, and kakashi is continuously emitting this. The length of lightening transmission is longer than the diameter of neji's rotation. Rotation is biggest(has the biggest diameter) towards his feet. As in Towards his head the radius is smaller than towards his feet. Kakashi is aiming for the stomach. Rotation hasn't shown the ability to change the height of oncoming attacks, furthermore its only rotating in one direction. Whether it be clock or counter clockwise, one side will be weaker than the other since it is moving in the same direction as kakashi making cutting through easier.

I honestly doubt it can block even base rasengan. Since rotation really is the just one of the first phases of rasengan on a larger scale.Rotating chakra that's it. Not even in multiple directions just one.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

I can't see kakashi winning. It's too stacked against him. Atleast give him Guy.
Kakashi's only hope would be kumai, but he can't use that many.

y u say that? he oneshots 80% with raikiri enhanced executioner's blade.
Only lee, kiba, neji, and sai(maybe) are fast enough to dodge.

 

[fastrthnwind]

The lightening based chakra will vibrate through, Elemental chakra trumps regular chakra, and kakashi is continuously emitting this. The length of lightening transmission is longer than the diameter of neji's rotation. Rotation is biggest(has the biggest diameter) towards his feet. As in Towards his head the radius is smaller than towards his feet. Kakashi is aiming for the stomach. Rotation hasn't shown the ability to change the height of oncoming attacks, furthermore its only rotating in one direction. Whether it be clock or counter clockwise, one side will be weaker than the other since it is moving in the same direction as kakashi making cutting through easier.

I honestly doubt it can block even base rasengan. Since rotation really is the just one of the first phases of rasengan on a larger scale.Rotating chakra that's it. Not even in multiple directions just one.

It depends on the amount of chakra used in the jutsu.

It doesn't change the height, but rather the direction and since lighting chain doesn't move in any specific direction other than forward, the rotating chakra will force it to the side, effectively cutting the chain.

There is no weaker side since the rotation is all encompassing. That's why its called an absolute defense. The direction it spins just shows the direction the attack will be deflected off to.

Only one specific point on the side has chakra moving in the same general direction as kakashi, but that wont make up for the other chakra spinning around in the other directions as well. Plus kakashi has to actually make it through the radius of the rotation to actually make it to that point, where it would be going the opposite direction on the other side, where it would definitely cut off.

It can block base rasengan because there isn't enough chakra for it to drill through all the way to Neji himself. As soon as Narutos hand reaches the dome, his hand will bounce off of it. The actual chakra orb diameter must be able to touch Neji in order for it to be effective.

People compare the two jutsus, since its based on large amounts of chakra spinning, but Rasengan is more compressed since it is only in the hand and the chakra flows in all directions rather than just one in order to maximize damage efficiency, whereas rotation is the rapid expulsion and rotation of chakra away from the user in one direction to deflect attacks. Two of the most powerful jutsus, yet different in their uses based on their mechanics; one for offense, and one for defense

 

[BenjerminGaye]

It depends on the amount of chakra used in the jutsu.

It doesn't change the height, but rather the direction and since lighting chain doesn't move in any specific direction other than forward, the rotating chakra will force it to the side, effectively cutting the chain.

The length of kakashi's lightening transmission is greater than neji's biggest shown rotation.

There is no weaker side since the rotation is all encompassing. That's why its called an absolute defense. The direction it spins just shows the direction the attack will be deflected off to.

It's far from absolute since its based of spinning but for arguments sake lets say neji's kaiten is clockwise. If kakashi was to come from 6 o'clock heading towards 12, the clone on the 6:01 or left side would have it easier since the chakra is moving in the same direction as him.

Only one specific point on the side has chakra moving in the same general direction as kakashi, but that wont make up for the other chakra spinning around in the other directions as well. Plus kakashi has to actually make it through the radius of the rotation to actually make it to that point, where it would be going the opposite direction on the other side, where it would definitely cut off.

The chakra is moving one direction and is doing nothing to break the chain.One clone would have a harder time than the other but taking into consideration the vibrating nature of lightening based chakra getting through should be easy.

It can block base rasengan because there isn't enough chakra for it to drill through all the way to Neji himself. As soon as Narutos hand reaches the dome, his hand will bounce off of it. The actual chakra orb diameter must be able to touch Neji in order for it to be effective.

Naruto can sink his hand in as far as the size of the rasengan. By doing this he disrupts rotation slowing neji down and letting his hand slip in even further. At highest point of a kaiten there is no rotation going on so any attack directed there would make it through.So we're just going to forget the explosion that comes from a released rasengan?

People compare the two jutsus, since its based on large amounts of chakra spinning, but Rasengan is more compressed since it is only in the hand and the chakra flows in all directions rather than just one in order to maximize damage efficiency, whereas rotation is the rapid expulsion and rotation of chakra away from the user in one direction to deflect attacks. Two of the most powerful jutsus, yet different in their uses based on their mechanics; one for offense, and one for defense

I don't know who compared the technique other than me but whatever. Mechanically rasengan is better than rotation.

 

[fastrthnwind]

The length of kakashi's lightening transmission is greater than neji's biggest shown rotation.

The lighting chain itself still needs to actually travel the radius between the edge of the dome and Neji.

It's far from absolute since its based of spinning but for arguments sake lets say neji's kaiten is clockwise. If kakashi was to come from 6 o'clock heading towards 12, the clone on the 6:01 or left side would have it easier since the chakra is moving in the same direction as him.

Its absolute because it protects the user from all sides and the spinning is the reason its absolute. Anyways, the rotating chakra is still disturbing the entire chain of lightning chakra despite the chakra going in the same direction on one side, which will inevitably break it up if he goes in to far because it first has to hit the edge of the dome at 6 o clock in order for the lighting chain to be useful to work.

The chakra is moving one direction and is doing nothing to break the chain.One clone would have a harder time than the other but taking into consideration the vibrating nature of lightening based chakra getting through should be easy.

read explanation above

Naruto can sink his hand in as far as the size of the rasengan. By doing this he disrupts rotation slowing neji down and letting his hand slip in even further. At highest point of a kaiten there is no rotation going on so any attack directed there would make it through.So we're just going to forget the explosion that comes from a released rasengan?

he can sink in the rasengan up to the point where his hand would enter and that's it. It wont disrupt the entire rotation because Neji is still constantly emitting new chakra to replace any lost from the attack. At the highest point, only a powerful pin sized attack could make it through because there is still rotation around the epicenter that will protect it, but then again, not many people can attack directly from above anyways. The explosion from the release will just decrease the density of the rasengan which is what gave it its power in the first place. Without it, the chakra wont be able to properly drill through because the drilling force would decrease exponentially, leaving the rest of the chakra to be forced aside from the greater replusive power of the rotation.

I don't know who compared the technique other than me but whatever. Mechanically rasengan is better than rotation.

Its only good as an offense though, not as a defense, whereas rotation is mainly used for defense, but can be used offensively like when Hiashi took out 20 sand nin in the invasion of konoha with a large rotation.

Rasengan also has to be shoved into an opponents body to work and if the person is smart enough(which they usually are) they can just counter it by keeping the jutsu from connecting. Rotation is good for defending against both close and long range attacks and can be used extremely quickly because it only requires the user to start spinning while expelling chakra.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

The lighting chain itself still needs to actually travel the radius between the edge of the dome and Neji.

Its absolute because it protects the user from all sides and the spinning is the reason its absolute. Anyways, the rotating chakra is still disturbing the entire chain of lightning chakra despite the chakra going in the same direction on one side, which will inevitably break it up if he goes in to far because it first has to hit the edge of the dome at 6 o clock in order for the lighting chain to be useful to work.

The rotating chakra isn't disturbing a thing. It might slow it down but it rotating doesn't equate to breaking the chain. Since neji isn't rotating any faster as the chain slides through the amount of resistance the chain revives will always be the same.Meaning if it breaches his rotation the chain will continue to breach it at a constant rate. The driving force pulling the chain through is making no contact with neji's jutsu and thus wont be affected by it.

read explanation above

read explanation above

he can sink in the rasengan up to the point where his hand would enter and that's it. It wont disrupt the entire rotation because Neji is still constantly emitting new chakra to replace any lost from the attack. At the highest point, only a powerful pin sized attack could make it through because there is still rotation around the epicenter that will protect it, but then again, not many people can attack directly from above anyways. The explosion from the release will just decrease the density of the rasengan which is what gave it its power in the first place. Without it, the chakra wont be able to properly drill through because the drilling force would decrease exponentially, leaving the rest of the chakra to be forced aside from the greater replusive power of the rotation.

Makes sense. But by those same factors a lightening transmission can make it through, since the chain will be receiving the same amount of resistance no matter how far it makes it into the kaiten. Say neji's top speed is 100rpm the chain will always be cutting through chakra spinning at 100rpm regardless of how far it makes it into the rotation.

Its only good as an offense though, not as a defense, whereas rotation is mainly used for defense, but can be used offensively like when Hiashi took out 20 sand nin in the invasion of konoha with a large rotation.

Rasengan also has to be shoved into an opponents body to work and if the person is smart enough(which they usually are) they can just counter it by keeping the jutsu from connecting. Rotation is good for defending against both close and long range attacks and can be used extremely quickly because it only requires the user to start spinning while expelling chakra.

whatever.