Uncovering the mystery: Hiraishin

[ajpn920]

I asked HOW does FTG incorporate Yin and Yang Release into it. Simple enough question.

Anyway as for your question, I wouldn't put S/T techniques into either Shape or Nature transformation. You realise what Kakashi said in the page you posted was specifically talking about Rasenshuriken right?

Did you even read my thread?? you are asking idiotic question. As for your answer, it is not an answer knowing that there are only shape and nature to choose from. Based on your answer, it shows that you don't know the answer..

Anyway as for your question, I wouldn't put S/T techniques into either Shape or Nature transformation.

[/QUOTE]

Don't pretend that you know everything because your answer alone speaks how much you know about it.

now, between the two choices, where will you put FTG? Shape or nature? waiting for your reply. i need only one word from you..SHAPE or NATURE?

You realise what Kakashi said in the page you posted was specifically talking about Rasenshuriken right?

Kakashi here is talking about the command of two chakra control techniques. Learn how to read..Can't believe i'm arguing with a kid..

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[iSpeak]

Did you even read my thread?? you are asking idiotic question. As for your answer, it is not an answer knowing that there are only shape and nature to choose from. Based on your answer, it shows that you don't know the answer..

Don't pretend that you know everything because your answer alone speaks how much you know about it.

now, between the two choices, where will you put FTG? Shape or nature? waiting for your reply. i need only one word from you..SHAPE or NATURE?

Yawn, I have already answered that it doesn't fall in either. Not all ninjutsu fall into either Shape or Nature transformation... unless you can show me where it says that?

I have read your whole thread and it doesn't answer my question at all. So like I said, Yang Release = Power of Vitality, Yin Release = Power of imagination. Explain to me exactly how FTG incorporates Yin and Yang into it. It seems you cant answer a simple question. Remember your talking to someone who knows more about Yin and Yang than you do.

 

[ajpn920]

Yawn, I have already answered that it doesn't fall in either. Not all ninjutsu fall into either Shape or Nature transformation... unless you can show me where it says that?

I have read your whole thread and it doesn't answer my question at all. So like I said, Yang Release = Power of Vitality, Yin Release = Power of imagination. Explain to me exactly how FTG incorporates Yin and Yang into it. It seems you cant answer a simple question. Remember your talking to someone who knows more about Yin and Yang than you do.

Haha..you know Yin Yang more than me? So why not create a thread about YIN YANG?

Okay then, so are you saying that the manga is wrong? Can you provide an evidence about that. For sure you did not understand what logical solution is all about. I did say that i will uncover the mystery through manga info and logical solution.

Not all ninjutsu fall into either Shape or Nature transformation

I did give you a scan. It's your turn to prove that not all ninjutsu fall under shape or nature. Evidence is needed. Support your claim

 

[iSpeak]

Haha..you know Yin Yang more than me? So why not create a thread about YIN YANG?

Okay then, so are you saying that the manga is wrong? Can you provide an evidence about that. For sure you did not understand what logical solution is all about. I did say that i will uncover the mystery through manga info and logical solution.



I did give you a scan. It's your turn to prove that not all ninjutsu fall under shape or nature. Evidence is needed. Support your claim

Yawn, I hate arguing with the ignorant.

Spoiler

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Kakashi says "We are going to be training to have you develop an ultimate ninjutsu to call your own. A jutsu superior to even Rasengan"

Hmm, I wonder what Jutsu that could be? Obviously Rasenshuriken.

Kakashi then says "To do that, you will need to have command of two chakra control techniques, physical and spatial recomposition."

Now, anyone who has atleast decent level reading skills will know that Kakashi is specifically talking about Rasenshuriken when he says you need physical and spatial recomposition to perform it. Unless you believe every single ninjutsu requires both Nature and Shape manipulation? I thought not. Sorry, but no where is it stated that all ninjutsu require either of them.

And you are still yet to answer this question, how exactly does FTG incorporate Yin and Yang Release into it? If you know so much about Yin and Yang. Im waiting...

 

[ajpn920]

Yawn, I hate arguing with the ignorant.

Spoiler

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Kakashi says "We are going to be training to have you develop an ultimate ninjutsu to call your own. A jutsu superior to even Rasengan"

Hmm, I wonder what Jutsu that could be? Obviously Rasenshuriken.

Kakashi then says "To do that, you will need to have command of two chakra control techniques, physical and spatial recomposition."

Now, anyone who has atleast decent level reading skills will know that Kakashi is specifically talking about Rasenshuriken when he says you need physical and spatial recomposition to perform it. Unless you believe every single ninjutsu requires both Nature and Shape manipulation? I thought not. Sorry, but no where is it stated that all ninjutsu require either of them.

Ignorant kid...My opening post talks about two chakra control techniques and those are shape and nature. You even acknowledge it as quoted below.

Kakashi then says "To do that, you will need to have command of two chakra control techniques, physical and spatial recomposition."

Since kakashi talks about two chakra control techniques which are needed to form ninjutsu, where will you put FTG since it is a ninjutsu. Only two choices. You inserted the rasenshuriken which i'm not talking about it in my opening post. We are arguing about the shape or nature transformation. Now, who's ignorant??

 

[ajpn920]

I am about to read your thread. But do not kid yourself if you think you know more than ispeak.
Seriously you new folks need to be given a good pummeling

read Ispeaks post before you comment. we're arguing about chakra control techs yet look at his posts. i'm sure you're intelligent enough to know how foolish his posts are. seriously, it's the other way around. Needed a good pummeling huh...not gonna happen..believe me..be back later

 

[naruttebayo]

i think ftg is the combination of summoning and reverse summoning jutsu + sealing tech may be
element has nothing to do with it

i don't think so mate. it was labelled as a ninjutsu..this alone is a clue that it could be rather a shape or nature transformation

yup but summoning jutsu is also categorized under ninjutsu , space time ninjutsu to be more precise

Spoiler

changed place so u'd notice

 

[iSpeak]

Ignorant kid...My opening post talks about two chakra control techniques and those are shape and nature. You even acknowledge it as quoted below.



Since kakashi talks about two chakra control techniques which are needed to form ninjutsu, where will you put FTG since it is a ninjutsu. Only two choices. You inserted the rasenshuriken which i'm not talking about it in my opening post. We are arguing about the shape or nature transformation. Now, who's ignorant??

Nope, Kakashi is talking about the two chakra control techniques which are needed to create Rasenshuriken. I have already explained this in my previous post, did you even read it?

Reread what Kakashi is saying properly, then you will understand I am right.

I am about to read your thread. But do not kid yourself if you think you know more than ispeak.
Seriously you new folks need to be given a good pummeling

Lol, I have asked time and time again to simply explain to me how FTG incorporates Yin and Yang Release into it, but he can't answer that question.

 

[Blaze Release]

read Ispeaks post before you comment. we're arguing about chakra control techs yet look at his posts. i'm sure you're intelligent enough to know how foolish his posts are. be back later

Cannot be asked to.
Anyway ill give you some credit, you have a theory. Yes there are certain things that i can pick you on, but i get the overall point of the thread. Which is that hiraishin is yin-yang.

However you are wrong.
First of all jikuukin based techniques come in different forms.
An example is jiraiya's Kekkai Gama Hyoro. [

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].
Its a jukkikin based technique in the sense that, there is a distortion of space that happens within the gourd.

For hiraishin. Ill firstly explain using other things listed in the manga.
Naruto asks about medic ninjutsu, genjutsu, nara's clans's kagemane and choji's baika no jutsu.
Yamato then responds by saying that, there is no time to teach naruto about the concepts of yin and yang energy [

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]

Now. Genjutsu and medic ninjutsu for a fact have been stated to be yin energy production.
Going by my theory, nara's clan's kagemane will also fall under yin energy while choji's baika no jutsu will fall under yang.

But these are NOT elements. The 6th element is a combination of both of these energies to create Onmyoton; yin-yang release.
Now if i remember correctly Jiraiya said the wielder of the rinnegan has access to the 6th element. No body else can access Onmyoton apart from rinnegan user's. But though jiraiya was somewhat right, he was wrong because we later found out that, uchiha's with control of hashirama dna can also access Onmyoton because they are now complete and obito should us this in the form of complete izanagi an Onmyoton, jutsu based on bunbutsu sozo. The reason jiraiya was right in saying that only rinnegan users can access Onmyoton is because in order to gain the rinnegan you uchiha and senju must be one. But as i said, obito was able to use this because though he didn't have the rinnegan he was somewhat complete because he had both dna in him.

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So, no. Hiraishin isn't Onmyoton based. But i believe its yang energy. I haven't formulated my theory in much depth but ill explain it a bit.
Hashirama's dna which is based on yang energy, increases the time of izanagi. This time increase could somewhat be attributed to jikuukin based ninjutsu

 

[ajpn920]

Nope, Kakashi is talking about the two chakra control techniques which are needed to create Rasenshuriken. I have already explained this in my previous post, did you even read it?

Reread what Kakashi is saying properly, then you will understand I am right.



Lol, I have asked time and time again to simply explain to me how FTG incorporates Yin and Yang Release into it, but he can't answer that question.

Nope, Kakashi is talking about the two chakra control techniques which are needed to create Rasenshuriken

I will agree on this but the thing here is my opening post is talking about two chakra control needed to form a ninjutsu. Since FTG is a ninjutsu, where will you put it? Shape or Nature? I'm not arguing about rasenshuriken part. That scan supported my 1st fact that there are only two chakra control techs needed to form ninjutsu. Until now you can't answer when there are only two choices to choose from

Lol, I have asked time and time again to simply explain to me how FTG incorporates Yin and Yang Release into it, but he can't answer that question

You do realize that my OP stated that I will uncover the mystery with some information and logical solution. read everything so you will understand how I concluded FTG as YIN YANG release.

yup but summoning jutsu is also categorized under ninjutsu , space time ninjutsu to be more precise

Spoiler

changed place so u'd notice

sorry mate. did not notice your post..to be honest can't find where it is said that summoning can be classified as ninjutsu but even if it is, it will not change the fact that there are only two methods of manipulating chakra and that is shape or nature transformation.

 

[iSpeak]

I will agree on this but the thing here is my opening post is talking about two chakra control needed to form a ninjutsu. Since FTG is a ninjutsu, where will you put it? Shape or Nature? I'm not arguing about rasenshuriken part. That scan supported my 1st fact that there are only two chakra control techs needed to form ninjutsu. Until now you can't answer when there are only two choices to choose from

My whole point is that not all ninjutsu has to fall under either shape or nature manipulation and it isn't stated anywhere that it does. Kakashi was just explaining that you do need both shape and nature manipulation to create Rasenshuriken. That is all.

You do realize that my OP stated that I will uncover the mystery with some information and logical solution. read everything so you will understand how I concluded FTG as YIN YANG release.

Why would you use trial and error, and speculation to place FTG under Yin-Yang release when we already know what Yin-Yang release is and can judge whether it falls in that category by comparing their descriptions (which obviously it doesn't).

Be back later by the way.

 

[ajpn920]

Cannot be asked to.
Anyway ill give you some credit, you have a theory. Yes there are certain things that i can pick you on, but i get the overall point of the thread. Which is that hiraishin is yin-yang.

However you are wrong.
First of all jikuukin based techniques come in different forms.
An example is jiraiya's Kekkai Gama Hyoro. [

You must be registered for see links

].
Its a jukkikin based technique in the sense that, there is a distortion of space that happens within the gourd.

For hiraishin. Ill firstly explain using other things listed in the manga.
Naruto asks about medic ninjutsu, genjutsu, nara's clans's kagemane and choji's baika no jutsu.
Yamato then responds by saying that, there is no time to teach naruto about the concepts of yin and yang energy [

You must be registered for see links

]

Now. Genjutsu and medic ninjutsu for a fact have been stated to be yin energy production.
Going by my theory, nara's clan's kagemane will also fall under yin energy while choji's baika no jutsu will fall under yang.

But these are NOT elements. The 6th element is a combination of both of these energies to create Onmyoton; yin-yang release.
Now if i remember correctly Jiraiya said the wielder of the rinnegan has access to the 6th element. No body else can access Onmyoton apart from rinnegan user's. But though jiraiya was somewhat right, he was wrong because we later found out that, uchiha's with control of hashirama dna can also access Onmyoton because they are now complete and obito should us this in the form of complete izanagi an Onmyoton, jutsu based on bunbutsu sozo. The reason jiraiya was right in saying that only rinnegan users can access Onmyoton is because in order to gain the rinnegan you uchiha and senju must be one. But as i said, obito was able to use this because though he didn't have the rinnegan he was somewhat complete because he had both dna in him.

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So, no. Hiraishin isn't Onmyoton based. But i believe its yang energy. I haven't formulated my theory in much depth but ill explain it a bit.
Hashirama's dna which is based on yang energy, increases the time of izanagi. This time increase could somewhat be attributed to jikuukin based ninjutsu

Saying that I am wrong means that you know what is right. As you have mentioned, your theory is that FTG is YANG based. The best way I think to answer a question you are not certain is I don't know or maybe it's possible knowing that you also believe FTG to be YANG release. Saying I'm wrong means you are certain that FTG is YANG release because this is what you believe in.

For hiraishin. Ill firstly explain using other things listed in the manga.
Naruto asks about medic ninjutsu, genjutsu, nara's clans's kagemane and choji's baika no jutsu.
Yamato then responds by saying that, there is no time to teach naruto about the concepts of yin and yang energy

Yin Yang is the source of those Hiden techs you've mentioned but it doesn't mean that it is a yin-yang release tech

Going by my theory, nara's clan's kagemane will also fall under yin energy while choji's baika no jutsu will fall under yang

This is your theory and by the looks of it, you're going to uncover that truth about it using some logical solution right? We both know what we're talking about here. At least I assumed that you know.

The 6th element is a combination of both of these energies to create Onmyoton; yin-yang release.

I have said in my OP about the 6th element being the YIN YANG release. If you believe that only someone with both Uchiha and Senju can do a YIN YANG release tech then that's your opinion because I believe that FTG is a YIN YANG release.

So, no. Hiraishin isn't Onmyoton based. But i believe its yang energy. I haven't formulated my theory in much depth but ill explain it a bit

The difference in our theory is that you believe FTG to be a Yang release while I believe it to be YIN YANG release mainly because of the number of info which will lead us to it like tsukuyomi which can alter the perception of time within the genjutsu, FTG can bend space and time but not within a genjutsu. It can bend time and space in the real world which YIN release and YANG release are part of it.

My whole point is that not all ninjutsu has to fall under either shape or nature manipulation and it isn't stated anywhere that it does. Kakashi was just explaining that you do need both shape and nature manipulation to create Rasenshuriken. That is all.



Why would you use trial and error, and speculation to place FTG under Yin-Yang release when we already know what Yin-Yang release is and can judge whether it falls in that category by comparing their descriptions (which obviously it doesn't).

Be back later by the way.

Can you at least support your claim that not all ninjutsu fall under shape or nature. This is the best to way settle this argument.

Why would you use trial and error, and speculation to place FTG under Yin-Yang release when we already know what Yin-Yang release is and can judge whether it falls in that category by comparing their descriptions (which obviously it doesn't)

It's not trial and error for your info. Call it logical solution based on what I have gathered so far. Where will you put FTG exactly?

 

[maxwellwilson02]

FACT 4: Kakashi can copy a technique that doesn’t use hand seals like the rasengan

Spoiler

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Fact 4 is wrong. Kakashi did not copy the Rasengan as he learnt it before the chidori which he had before the sharingan. it's common knowledge you cannot copy a jutsu without handseals with the sharingan.

 

[ajpn920]

OP. I do not think you understand why it cannot be both, yin AND yang.
But ill leave it there because you have absolute faith in your theory and do not waver even when put in front of you reasons why it cannot be. Hopefully the manga might make it crystal clear in the near future

Yeah. All of us here hopes for that. But I don't think it's good to say someone that he/she is wrong when you yourself is not certain about what is right. I believe FTG to be YIN YANG release based on the info provided in the OP and you believe it to YANG release. Sad thing here is both are all theories so if you ask me, then the best way is to answer something we are not sure of is I don't know.

Fact 4 is wrong. Kakashi did not copy the Rasengan as he learnt it before the chidori which he had before the sharingan. it's common knowledge you cannot copy a jutsu without handseals with the sharingan.

well, you can be right but the sad part is the manga says otherwise. I'll stick to what the manga said. Kakashi clearly said that he manage to COPYit.

 

[iSpeak]

Can you at least support your claim that not all ninjutsu fall under shape or nature. This is the best to way settle this argument.

It's not trial and error for your info. Call it logical solution based on what I have gathered so far. Where will you put FTG exactly?

It hasn't been directly stated anywhere (neither has it been stated anywhere that all ninjutsu do) but as FTG (amongst others) do not incorporate either shape or nature transformation in anyway, then I would have to assume that not all ninjutsu fall into one.

But if I had to put it in a category, I would honestly put it in Shape transformation:

Shape transformation: It involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of a technique.

FTG does involve changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range and purpose of the technique in a way. But at the same time it doesn't fully fit as a shape transformation, neither does it fit as any form of nature transformation.

So like I said, FTG doesn't fall into either of the category's properly so as it hasn't been stated that all ninjutsu have to fall in either category, I would conclude that FTG doesn't fall into either until stated otherwise.

 

[maxwellwilson02]

[/QUOTE=ajpn920;11059635]]well, you can be right but the sad part is the manga says otherwise. I'll stick to what the manga said. Kakashi clearly said that he manage to COPYit.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe he meant copy in the way he copies other jutsus in general but copy such as his master has a move so he's going to copy him and learn it.

 

[ajpn920]

It hasn't been directly stated anywhere (neither has it been stated anywhere that all ninjutsu do) but as FTG (amongst others) do not incorporate either in anyway, then I would have to assume that not all ninjutsu do.

But if I had to put it in a category, I would honestly put it in Shape transformation:

Shape transformation: It involves changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range, and purpose of a technique.

FTG does involve changing the form and movement of chakra, determining the size, range and purpose of the technique in a way. But at the same time it doesn't fully fit as a shape transformation, neither does it fit as any form of nature transformation.

so like I said, FTG doesn't fall into either of the category's properly so as it hasn't been stated that all ninjutsu have to fall in either category, I would conclude that FTG doesn't fall into either until stated otherwise.

It hasn't been directly stated anywhere (neither has it been stated anywhere that all ninjutsu do) but as FTG (amongst others) do not incorporate either in anyway, then I would have to assume that not all ninjutsu do

Look at this. All you can say is you have to assume yet you tend to put down what I have gathered so far. The manga clearly stated that there are only two methods of manipulating chakra that's why I asked you where will you put FTG. You said you can't put it either of the two when you know that there are only two choices to choose from.

But if I had to put it in a category, I would honestly put it in Shape transformation

This is the answer I've waited for and if you believe it to be in shape transformation despite the evidence that I have posted then I'll respect that decision of yours.

If you will ask why I don't believe it to be in shape transformation then it's simple. Shape transformation was already taken in the highest level and we're talking about rasengan. The highest level of shape transformation is class A while FTG is class S.

[/QUOTE=ajpn920;11059635]]well, you can be right but the sad part is the manga says otherwise. I'll stick to what the manga said. Kakashi clearly said that he manage to COPYit.

I don't believe he meant copy in the way he copies other jutsus in general but copy such as his master has a move so he's going to copy him and learn it.[/QUOTE]

Copying and Learning are different so I'll stick to what I believe that he copied it and not learned it. He was known as a copy ninja so this alone can tell us that just copied the tech.

 

[Waltz]

I highly doubt. It's function seems to distort or warp the Space-Time continuum. Hirashin may not necessarily be an Nature-Release based technique such as shun-shin. It seems to instantaneously contract the space between the user and the Jutsu-Shiki attached to his kunai, allowing them to evade in a flash. Kakashi's ability to produce the rasengan is not solely a sharingan feat as in order to reproduce a copied technique, one must have the necessary skill or ability to do so.

 

[iSpeak]

Look at this. All you can say is you have to assume yet you tend to put down what I have gathered so far. The manga clearly stated that there are only two methods of manipulating chakra that's why I asked you where will you put FTG. You said you can't put it either of the two when you know that there are only two choices to choose from.

Like I said a million times, it has never been stated that all ninjutsu have to fall under one of the category's, unless you can prove it to me. The manga has never stated this. You are clearly ignoring the fact that FTG doesn't fall under Yin-Yang release either.

This is the answer I've waited for and if you believe it to be in shape transformation despite the evidence that I have posted then I'll respect that decision of yours.

If you will ask why I don't believe it to be in shape transformation then it's simple. Shape transformation was already taken in the highest level and we're talking about rasengan. The highest level of shape transformation is class A while FTG is class S.

Did you not clearly read what I said? I said if I had to choose one, it would be Shape as it doesn't fit in nature transformation in the slightest way. But I clearly said that it doesn't fully fit into Shape either. Meaning that it is neither shape or nature transformation.

So show me where it says all ninjutsu have to fall into either Shape or Nature transformation.

 

[ajpn920]

I highly doubt. It's function seems to distort or warp the Space-Time continuum. Hirashin may not necessarily be an elemental based technique such as shun-shin. It seems to instantaneously contract the space between the user and the Jutsu-Shiki attached to his kunai, allowing them to evade in a flash. Kakashi's ability to produce the rasengan is not solely the sharingan's ability as in order to reproduce a copied technique, one must have the necessary skill or ability to do so.

Well, what I know and possibly you also is that FTG is a ninjutsu and there are only two methods of manipulating chakra that being the shape or nature. If you don't believe FTG to be in Shape transformation then it has to be in Nature transformation which is self explanatory that it can't fall under the 1st 5 elements. So, obviously it has to be a yin yang release.

Like I said a million times, it has never been stated that all ninjutsu have to fall under one of the category's, unless you can prove it to me. The manga has never stated this. You are clearly ignoring the fact that FTG doesn't fall under Yin-Yang release either.



Did you not clearly read what I said? I said if I had to choose one, it would be Shape as it doesn't fit in nature transformation in the slightest way. But I clearly said that it doesn't fully fit into Shape either. Meaning that it is neither shape or nature transformation.

So show me where it says all ninjutsu have to fall into either Shape or Nature transformation.

The scan I've provided in the OP is enough. Can you at least show me a scan to counter that not all ninjutsu falls under shape or nature transformation? I have supported my claim through that scan. Try to support your claim.

By the way, if i'll ask you if you really believe that there are only two methods of manipulating chakra what is your answer?

If you don't believe that there are only two then what made you think that way?